AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: deep on 31 May 2016, 11:53 pm
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Last February I received my SS8”’s and promptly had a bad accident. It was months before I began to pay attention to the overall sound. Gradually I became aware that I didn’t like the sound-it was harsh and bright to my ears. I listened and played things less and less.
At the time, I had Wyred4Sound’s preamp and ST 500 amp. I replaced the preamp with a Primaluna tube preamp and still found the sound to be harsh. I changed out the ST500 for an old Adcom 545 and the sound improved. I chanced across a used Parasound A21 and purchased it. Again the sound improved, but it was still harsh/hard to my ears.
Then I swapped the SS8’s with an old Dynaudio 1.8 MKII and listened only for signs of harshness or hardness. Lo and behold, the harshness was gone!
So I wrote Jim and asked for his input and he suggested a change in resistors, which would slightly depress the high mids/treble by .5 to 1 db. Since I use JRiver, I approximated the change using JRiver’s equalizer. Still no joy. It still sounded harsh/hard.
Based on my experience with the Dyn’s I don’t think my room is an issue.
Before I decide to sell my SS8’s (for a loss) and move to something else, does the community have any other thoughts as to a test/change that I have overlooked?
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Harsh is never a word I have heard used with a Salk speaker. that said, I imagine it is your dislike of a ribbon tweeter here and not the salk's per se. Have you liked other ribbons?
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Opposite problem. I always hated dome tweeters! :duh: I preferred the ribbons from LCY to Raal as not being shrill to my ears. Then I heard the Exotic drivers in the Exoticas and fell in love. You may have a general distaste for ribbons. It could also be the upper midrange of the ceramic driver your ears are sensitive to as well. Tape a towel over each driver to see if your ears react kindly to one of them "going away".
The 8's are "digital" and the Exoticas are "analog" in a sense. Your ears' preference could be for a different driver complement and you were not aware of your sensitivity. I'd say Klipsch would not be in your future as well!! :nono:
JRiver equalizer is not the same as knocking down the tweeter in the crossover by 0.5 db with a resistor change. If you have not tried that then you should. It can be an amazing transformation for some.
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sfox,
Yes I have listened to other ribbons. In this case, I purchased JWebb's old monitor's and thought they were a bit on the bright side. I thought the RAAL would be significantly sweeter. When contemplating purchasing the SS8's I listened to Myron Ho's set up and didn't think the sound was hard, but the room was too small for the speakers, causing the bass to be excessive and perhaps masking harshness issue.
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Big Red,
Thanks for your thoughts. I recognize using the JRiver equalizer isn't the same as a transistor change, but I'd think it would provide some clue about how changing the transistor would help. I don't recall others saying they heard a significant change when going the transistor route. Would you provide some quotes or get them to respond to my issue?
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Is the room treated at all?
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Deep,
Welcome to AC. :thumb:
Contrary to a lot of popular belief you see posted around the internet, IMO, once you reach the level of something like a SS8 (direct priced at 8-9K, if sold at retail 15-20K), your system needs to be run like a highly precise, tight tolerance, well oiled machine. Said another way, the adage that speakers are "some large percent of the sound you hear," becomes less truthful. A well designed transducer, should transduce, and add minimal of its own signature to the sound. It will sound like, what it is being fed.
Given that the SS8's, and many other designs on its level, are so revealing, something wrong in the chain is going to be horrendously notable.
I am experiencing something similar with my Exotica 3s, when I use my PC as a transport. The sound falls apart, and becomes thin, harsh, and muffled. A stark contrast to using another transport, with the same DAC.
All things become evident with enough clarity. Noise, EMF, RFI, distortion, etc, etc, can ruin your sound.
My point is, the issue might not be your speakers, so much as something else in the chain.
Yes, you might like the Dynaudio better, but its a significantly less revealing speaker. The solution to your problem might not best be solved by "covering" up a problem potentially caused by something else.
Room treatments, power conditioning, more careful equipment synergy, different sources, cabling, tweaks like footers, etc, etc, can all help inch your closer to a more desirable sound.
Hardness and harshness to me sounds like two potential issues if I had to guess.
1, is acoustic issues. Do you have treatments at first reflection points? If not, try blankets and see if the condition improves. If so, consider some GIK panels for reasonable pricing. They also sell Art panels if WAF is an issue.
2, is a power issue. In my house, without power conditioning, the sound is atrocious. Thin, hard, unfocused. Even my Merrill monoblocks sound better into my power conditioner. Check PI audio. Magikbuss is a cost effective reasonable first step.
If you already are employing these strategies, then something else is a miss. Perhaps your transport/source, or cabling.
Any movement towards a speaker that functions on the same level as the SS8, will only likely reveal the same issues, since I would think its something else in your system.
What is the rest of your system?
Good luck. Don't be afraid to experiment. There are cheap options to try first, before you dive in with both feet.
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We have used Soundscape 8s, (and 10s, and 12s too) at trade shows with Jim Salk for the past several years and have always been very happy with the results.
This year, at Axpona, we had our new DVA 850 mono amps driving SS8s and the sound was great, not a trace of edge or grain or excess brightness.
I doubt very much if the speakers themselves are your problem. Note that we were using standard Bluejeans cables and no power conditioning at all aside from our little HumDinger.
What preamplifier are you using? A really high quality vacuum tube preamplifier could make all the difference.
Frank Van Alstine
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Honestly seeing some internals of Salk speakers generally they use very generic Solen Fast Cap "capacitors"... These French caps always highlighted and made frequencies sound artificial to some degree...
Before dumping them I would suggest a little crossover work. A good cheap alternative is to replace all the Solens if that is what is in there with at least Mundorf EVO caps. Much better and smoother.
Also a MUCH better amp will help. Adcom, or Wyred for sound Class D are both literally at the lower end of "Hifi" in my opinion. They have no tone, no harmonic body, and just don't smooth out that well, have a "Peaky" sorta sound.
I would suggest if you want a warmer Solid state sound without going to all tubes try a Mcintosh amp (With Autoformers), or Conrad Johnson for sure these can get rather pricey, but they will also drive midbass warming up the speaker a lot more which is where you need it.
Also, Salk does use very good off the shelf audio drivers that can be contoured very well. They are equal to or better than the drivers your dynaudios have, but need crossover work which will make all the difference. I have heard night and day transformations putting the right caps in a speaker, and I am pretty sure Salk even offers to build with whatever caps up front, but it costs more. It could save you from throwing away 50% of the cost on trying to dump them used. Realistically most speakers in the your run of the mill 2 way or 3 way designs netting about 88 db efficiency out there are going to be similar to the build, and materials Salk uses anyway so I would try to make them work before spending a lot more, or losing money.
Good Luck
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Tilt it down more. Make a JRiver filter that starts at 1kHz and goes straight line down to -6dB at 20kHz. Then experiment changing the amount of tilt (change the -6dB value.) This kind of dsp tilt filter is the exactly same as reducing the tweeter's parallel resistor. Google 'B&K curve' to learn about commonly preferred EQ curves.
+1 King Deezie The dynaudios could sound "better" only because their lower resolution hides the real source of harshness, like jitter, or electrolytic coupling caps. What's your sound card/audiointerface/DAC from the computer?
Tilting down the tweeter can reduce the sensitivity to lesser gears' flaws while preserving enough detail to fully enjoy the music.
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While these suggestions (AC, ancillary components, room treatments, EQing or speaker placement) are all very good ideas...
I want to express a different opinion. If a speaker costs you 8k, you should like how it sounds. And you should not have to spend years and megabucks pairing up things for it to make it sound acceptable to your ears.
I would think the best suggestion would come from Salk himself- he wants you to be happy with his speakers in your home. Perhaps he can give you a few extra tweaks to try, or if they dont work perhaps he can swap a different speaker line with you to try that has domes instead of ribbons.
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While these suggestions (AC, ancillary components, room treatments, EQing or speaker placement) are all very good ideas...
I want to express a different opinion. If a speaker costs you 8k, you should like how it sounds. And you should not have to spend years and megabucks pairing up things for it to make it sound acceptable to your ears.
I would think the best suggestion would come from Salk himself- he wants you to be happy with his speakers in your home. Perhaps he can give you a few extra tweaks to try, or if they don't work perhaps he can swap a different speaker line with you to try that has domes instead of ribbons.
I agree to some degree... However, unfortunately even at an 8 k speaker there are compromises, and truth is he is also trying to drive them with a system using some 500 dollar components.
Some small tweaks can help, but they will not change the overall presentation if its that far off. Room acoustics are 40% of the sound in any system, and most people won't be turning their living room into a near perfect acoustic environment spending 10,000 more. So you can get some small changes from cables, power conditioning etc... However, in this case the right amplification, and probably a Crossover upgrade will bring them to where they need to be much simpler, and cheaper than anything else.
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I owned the SS8s for about a year, using them a Marantz AV8801 and Parasound A21 (and Mundorf upgrades to the crossover). I found them to be too revealing of my poor recordings and modest equipment. I now have the Exotica 3s with a soft mid and soft dome tweeter and I love them wholeheartedly.
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In my personal experience, it's the RAAL tweeters, they reveal everything. It's sensitive to what comes down the line.
Plus, maybe you like me are a bit more sensitive to the higher frequencies.
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Post a pic of your setup. I'll bet you $100 that placement is 90% of your problem.
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It's not the speakers. You've got dirty power. The not-harsh sounding stuff you have is dull so it balances out when electronics sound harsh from bad power.
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1.) Yes talk to Salk again, he's a nice guy. I use EQ/DSP but don't believe adjusting the frequency response is the answer (in this case it'd be like putting a governor on a Ferrari). The Dynaudio's are very good speakers, maybe not as good, but mainly just different than yours. Just maybe something is really wrong with the Salks (but both of them)?
2.) After 40 years at this my goal is enjoyment, rather than ruthlessly revealing (which can be a real hoot initially but gets old/fatiguing). You can run into the old paradox of having a decent system that you can use to enjoy all your music (music lover made very happy) or a super system that only makes a handful of recordings listenable (the driven, sad, never satisfied audiophile).
3.) The Raals are extremely revealing (my first impression was that they were startling), your power amps are mediocre at best. I owned a Prima Luna integrated for 8 months (2015 Stereophile class A rated) but was barely better than my old solid state gear. I'm a "speaker first" kind of guy but cheap gear in front of Raal's is a bad combination. If the SS8's are $15k speakers the old rule of thumb would be to spend roughly $25k on the rest of your system.
Power aberrations are local (that you may or may not have). Is your wiring/appliances ancient, is your substation/area wiring performing well, or do you share the substation with industrial users? I've heard the affects of power aberrations, but barely at home (even in a 50 year old house with a rats nest of wiring/rewiring) or running off a portable generator (the expensive microwave wouldn't run at all).
Yes 99% of all systems are over qualified compared to the room/setup where they're being used and as said the room is a big factor in the overall sound. The best part of my system might be my dedicated room. But your complaints don't jive with room/setup effects. The SS8's deserve/need a big room of decent proportions.
Yes capacitors can make a difference. Swapped out a $2 cap for a $60 cap on my $20 tweeters just for giggles recently and it made a noticeable difference, but not one I'd call earth shattering.
No I've never found much if any help from tweaks, even between properly designed cables. What are all those reviewers drinking?
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Might as well add my 2 cents. Make sure the speakers are thoroughly broken-in. I recently purchased a 10 year old pair of Von Schweikert VR-7 HSE that sounded fairly hard/edgy on the top end. I used a burn-in disc on them for over 100 hours and the transformation was a little shocking. I also owned a pair of Philharmonic 3s (similar to your Salk SS8s) and they needed to be run for awhile before they calmed down. I know some people don't believe in burn-in so maybe this is just a placebo effect - but I don't think so.
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Hi,
Can you provide us with a description of the rest of your system if possible? Also some photos would help as well.
What types of recordings are you using? Anything less than well recorded or audiophile standard will sound compressed and harsh through those speakers. For example, I only have Salk Sound HT3's and the rest of my system is of a pretty good standard. Ever time I try to listen to compressed recordings I experience what you describe.
Poor quality speakers will mask the issues occurring in your system.
Cheers Rod
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There is a good chance he just does not like these speakers. This can happen! I also dont care too much for ribbon tweets. Everyone always looks to the other stuff as the isse. Power, treatmnets, electronics etc. The simplest and most likely cause is the actual speaker.
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.......... No I've never found much if any help from tweaks, even between properly designed cables. What are all those reviewers drinking?
The best wine / bourbon / scotch etc the payola can buy!! :rotflmao:
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I had one more thought. It's been mentioned that OP may not like the RAAL, but it could be equally likely he doesn't like the Accuton. I think for me, it was both of them. I think any definicies upstream are brought to the front by the Accuton in the all-important midrange. I've read some describe the Accuton as having (or at least not masking) any "glare" apparent in the recording or system. I'd say that was true for me, and I'll never go with a hard midrange again.
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I have never found the Salk SS8's bright or harsh in any way. The problem is likely just a synergy issue with the electronics, source, and cables. Room/setup could be an issue, but the OP is not complaining of any smearing, or lack of or bloated bass. I dont think thats it.
It's been asked several times now for the OP to list the rest of they system. I'd also like to know what kind of music, and what average volume?
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Wow, so many replies! I’ll start replying to them, but this may take a bit.
Kingdeezie suggested some possible issues: room Acoustics, power supply issues and cables. The cables are Kimber 8TC’s with some aquarium tubing inserted to help minimize electrical connections. As much as possible I have kept all stereo related connectors to cross at right angles.
On the room acoustics, I already had some modest treatments. I put a blanket over both sides of the 55’ TV with little difference in sound. When I tried the Dyns (without the blanket treatment) the hardness went away. Based on that result, I don’t think the room was an issue. BTW, this is with playback around 75db.
On the possibility it’s an electrical source issue, I have a dedicated circuit the stereo system is plugged into. All other components are plugged into another circuit. This includes the dac. Over time I have noticed some changes over the course of the day, but this has been inconsistent and doesn’t seem to have an effect on the hardness I’m hearing.
I also use a PS Audio Humbuster
Avahifi wanted to know the preamp I’m using. Its a Primaluna Dialogue Premium.
Undertow suggests reworking the xover, upgrading the amp. I am unwilling to experiment on the xover. Cost of upgrading the amp would cost me at least $2k more and I’m unwilling to spend that much without a clear picture of what the change would be.
Richidoo suggested rolling off the tweeter at about 1k hz and increasing to about -6db at 20hz. This sounds a bit strong. I’ll see about giving it a try. I expect it will take me a bit to set up and listen.
Per Jim’s comments to me in an email, I made the changes starting at 300 hz to approximate what a resister change would sound like.
JonnyFive comments a different speaker would likely be the best solution and points to his experience with the Exotica’s.
Early B. Suggests it’s a placement issue. I put the Dynaudio’s in the same place as the Salk’s. Its based on that experience, along with my experiment with the blanket over the TV that I am starting to think it’s the basic sound characteristics of the Salk’s and not the room or other issue.
Folsom opines its dirty power. I don’t have a place to put a power conditioner, so that’s out.
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Best of luck.
When you initially purchased the SS8
were you able to listen to it in Auditions?
were you ever able to compare & contrast
the 'sound ' of an accuton driver VS another type?
I have accuton drivers & Scanspeak Slit Cone & Seas Magnesium.
I like them yet they do have differing tone.
It's not simply a question of better but what you prefer.
Not unlike guitar strings/styles or Piano brands.
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Wow, so many replies! I’ll start replying to them, but this may take a bit.
Kingdeezie suggested some possible issues: room Acoustics, power supply issues and cables. The cables are Kimber 8TC’s with some aquarium tubing inserted to help minimize electrical connections. As much as possible I have kept all stereo related connectors to cross at right angles.
On the room acoustics, I already had some modest treatments. I put a blanket over both sides of the 55’ TV with little difference in sound. When I tried the Dyns (without the blanket treatment) the hardness went away. Based on that result, I don’t think the room was an issue. BTW, this is with playback around 75db.
On the possibility it’s an electrical source issue, I have a dedicated circuit the stereo system is plugged into. All other components are plugged into another circuit. This includes the dac. Over time I have noticed some changes over the course of the day, but this has been inconsistent and doesn’t seem to have an effect on the hardness I’m hearing.
I also use a PS Audio Humbuster
Avahifi wanted to know the preamp I’m using. Its a Primaluna Dialogue Premium.
Undertow suggests reworking the xover, upgrading the amp. I am unwilling to experiment on the xover. Cost of upgrading the amp would cost me at least $2k more and I’m unwilling to spend that much without a clear picture of what the change would be.
Richidoo suggested rolling off the tweeter at about 1k hz and increasing to about -6db at 20hz. This sounds a bit strong. I’ll see about giving it a try. I expect it will take me a bit to set up and listen.
Per Jim’s comments to me in an email, I made the changes starting at 300 hz to approximate what a resister change would sound like.
JonnyFive comments a different speaker would likely be the best solution and points to his experience with the Exotica’s.
Early B. Suggests it’s a placement issue. I put the Dynaudio’s in the same place as the Salk’s. Its based on that experience, along with my experiment with the blanket over the TV that I am starting to think it’s the basic sound characteristics of the Salk’s and not the room or other issue.
Folsom opines its dirty power. I don’t have a place to put a power conditioner, so that’s out.
woh.
Re: Are SS8’s the wrong speaker for me?
Yes, the are the wrong speaker for you.
All of the answers are skewed towards "informing a newbie" since your first post was not so replete with information.
I think your folllow up here makes it quite clear you dont need any of these simple tips.
The Salks are not for you -
soft dome mids and tweeters, or maybe beryllium
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JLM suggest talking more with Jim. I will do that. He further opines (along with some others) it may simply be a case of having speakers that are too revealing for my taste/hearing. This is what concerns me and what motivated me to post.
He opined my power amp is mediocre. I was unaware the Parasound A21 was considered to be mediocre. When I replaced the Wyred4Sound ST500 with the Parasound I noticed an immediate improvement, but the system still sounded hard.
He has experience with Primaluna gear, which he didn’t find satisfying compared to his solid state stuff. My experience with Primaluna is different, but I’ve seen at least one person made a similar comment on another board.
I think I’ve addressed most of the power related questions raised, but ALM asks about the surrounding area. Do I live in an industrial area? I live in a suburban area of single family dwellings in a relatively upscale area in Southern California. The tract was built in the late 70’s. My home was built in 1979.
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deep:
What DAC, USB cable, and interconnects do you use?
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Before giving up, I would suggest experimenting more with placement. Every speaker is different so you can't assume what worked for your Dynaudio's is optimal for every speaker. In particular I would try no toe-in at all, extreme toe-in crossing in front of the listening position, or even toeing them out a bit.
also, make sure to experiment with opening up the back and using different amounts of fill - that may soften things a little.
Speaking with Jim Salk is a great idea as already mentioned. He always will make time for his customers and he would be the best person to provide an opinion.
In the end, the SS8s are a very detailed speaker and the Accuton/Raal combination may not be your cup of tea. Nothing wrong with that.
Good luck.
Tom
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Early B. Suggests it’s a placement issue. I put the Dynaudio’s in the same place as the Salk’s. Its based on that experience, along with my experiment with the blanket over the TV that I am starting to think it’s the basic sound characteristics of the Salk’s and not the room or other issue.
Every speaker responds to the room differently, and this necessitates optimizing placement. Movement of an inch or two can make a huge difference. Seems like you've your mind made up, though.
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Wow, so many replies! I’ll start replying to them, but this may take a bit.
Folsom opines its dirty power. I don’t have a place to put a power conditioner, so that’s out.
I've got no opinion as to whether or not dirty power is the culprit, but don't use lack of space as a reason to rule out a conditioner. You can't imagine how good these large wall wart Audience conditioners are considering their compact size. I've found this series (whether having teflon capacitors or not) to have one of the highest price-performance ratios of anything I've run across in my forty years of audio obsession.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144089)
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Rocket asks about my complete system:
Preamp: PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium Preamplifier
Amp: Parasound A21
Source: Dedicated computer running Windows 7 and Jriver.
DAC: Wyred4Sound
Power cord: Pangea
Preamp and DAC power cord: Pangea
Cables: Kimber 8tc
Interconnects: Kimber Hero
Other: PS Audio Humbuster
Electrical: Dedicated electrical line.
The TV etc are on a separate circuit.
Rocket also asks about recordings. Even audiophile recordings have a hard sound. I primalily play most anything acoustic (classical, some jazz, folk, celtic) plus 60’s and 70’s rock. All CD’s were copied using either lossless AIFF or sometimes APE.
Stercom suggests the speakers may not be broken in. They have been played almost daily between 4 and 10 hours daily for over a year.
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I think a lot of it is a combination of your high frequency sensitivity and coming from Dynaudio speakers.
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I'm not seeing anything glaring as a problem in your gear list. You don't list the USB cable though.
Is the sound thin, as in lacking bass, or just bright and harsh?
Jriver on an unoptomized computer is thin and bright to me. I also wonder about the Wyred DAC. But all said, maybe just move on from the Salk's.
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A digital e.q. will work wonders and would save a lot of people a lot of money. There is also that software from Europe, forgot the name maybe someone can chime in, that will not only e.q. your system but also do time alignment to a certain degree. Before selling the speakers I would use that software. It's around $300.00 or so.
Rocket Ronny
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While there is some labor of love which needs to be involved (placement/measurement and calibration), I will state that OP's gear is good enough for the speaker. Questioning him or his equipment or down to cable is :nono: :duh: Maybe one should ask for ear measurements as well? Not all have same taste and same speaker does not work for everyone.
I personally know of folks who are sensitive to different sonics.. some hated ribbons or horns and did not like what they heard in my room/dealer room and I was wondering :scratch: :lol:. It is indeed a personal preference - so trust your ears.
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Humbuster isn't a power conditioner BTW.
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While there is some labor of love which needs to be involved (placement/measurement and calibration), I will state that OP's gear is good enough for the speaker. Questioning him or his equipment or down to cable is :nono: :duh:
With high caliber speakers, you need corresponding gear for them. It's like putting $40 tires on a Ferrari and complaining about the handling. A well designed, high end speaker will magnify the system's weaknesses. So questions about associated gear are warranted. IMO, these speakers are far superior to the gear that feeds it, so the OP will never hear what those SS8's really sound like. In this case, downgrading the speakers may be a positive move.
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I don't think it's the equipment. The SS8's should sound good on a wide variety of electronics. I like to think that they are revealing, but that shouldn't lead to the irritation the OP is experiencing, because both the RAAL and ACCUTON are exceptionally smooth reproducers. Just one more question--do both speakers sound alike to you? Have you compared them to make sure there's not something off in one of the units?
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I love when someone has speaker issues and people suggest multi thousand dollar boxes full of capacitors for AC.
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I'm pretty sure everyone here wants to help the OP solve the problem and enjoy his set-up. Other than the unknown digital cable there are not any "crappy" devices sticking out in your system that would be immediate culprits to bad sound.
Have you gone to listen to other speakers and found them to be pleasing to your ears? What driver types? What gear in the chain?
Other than a fault with the speakers, upgrading the source gear and cabling, and then re-evaluating, it's very hard for us to know if your system in fact sounds like crap or your ears are sensitive to the drivers. Ship them to me and I'll get you a partial answer :thumb: cuz they would be my ears :duh:
I can send you my TotalDac usb cable to try.
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I would say 30 percent chances is your room.
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Id love to see a picture of the room that these speakers are in , can you post one
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Only because you mentioned in your response to us that you do have some interest in crossover upgrades etc.. Here are a few things to chew on.
I can argue that the Kimber cables could be a less than desirable match. These are also fairly "Zippy", and thinner sounding. Upper echelon stuff from Kimber not so much, but the standard stuff like Hero's can get a bit "Harsh".
Also to be honest the Primaluna gear is good, but you need to find tubes that are much better than stock if that is what is being used. Not to mention once again like in my first post the Salks I believe use SOLEN fast caps, I know for a fact Primaluna uses SOLEN fast caps from the factory they add a lot of harsh highlighted tone to anything I ever hear them in.
And I owned Primaluna guess what the first thing to go was! That's right... Those dam Solen caps here are photos of my upgrades at the time... It's fairly easy, and reasonable cost to change caps in both, and in that speaker even if just on the tweeter, and the preamp. I think it can help a lot in the case of matching up better toward smoother sound overall regardless what speaker is used.
I used Mundorfs EVO, and Clarity cap ESA caps to replace them all. Cheap, and nearly as good as the top of the line caps from any cap company.
The Primaluna is a "Good" preamp, but might not tilt toward the most lush of tubes if you need to inject that I would suggest looking at something more along the lines of Mcintosh, or Conrad Johnson gear I originally suggested. And again Mundorf Evo, or Clarity ESA caps will also work great in your speakers as well.
Besides your not a true "Audiophile" until you tear apart a perfectly good piece of equipment, and replace the caps :icon_lol:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144136)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144137)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144138)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144139)
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Besides your not a true "Audiophile" until you tear apart a perfectly good piece of equipment, and replace the caps :icon_lol:
Seconded!
Those are some mighty fine CAPS there! :D
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I'll chime in. If you don't like the way the SS8's sound then I'd move on. I wouldn't spend big bucks to upgrade the electronics. Been there, done that. I've owned a bunch of Jim's speakers, and did have a pair of SS8's. I found over time that the RAAL tweeter/Accuton combo just wasn't for me. I started with a Luxman 505 using a Bel Canto dac. Then I went through a myriad of Pass amps trying to 'mellow' the sound to my liking. In the end, I just wasn't using the system enough to justify keeping the speakers. I think in retrospect I stopped listening because I didn't really like the way they sounded. I found I prefer dome tweeters vs. ribbons. Just my experience.
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What's your location? Maybe an ACer can come by with equipment or you can go by and listen to theirs/
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It seems like the Accuton and Raal combo may not suite your taste. I have owned the SS8s since the first day it was being introduced to the world. Pair them with many brands from Rogue, Bat, Sim Audio, ModWright... and they all sound good. My favorite combo is SS8+ Bat. Now, I am using MW integrate Ki200. While it is a good match to Salk but not as good as when I pair the SS8 with Bat amp and preamp combo. Only I choose using MW integrate is for my own convenient and lack of space.
Over the years, many audio friends has been listened to my SS8+ Bat combo and felt very please with how they sound. Yes, there were also few other Philes felt there was too much energy in the upper frequency range that they wished there was way to reduce it. This was confirm again when I try to sell my whole system to raise fund for my new house, two years go. Lucky me and also thank you my mom for her generous "donation", I was able to sell all my stuffs and still be able to keep my Salk.
From my experience, while the Salk SS8s is the most natural, clear, clean mid with explosive bass speaker, they are also a very revealing and unforgiven speaker. If you want to stick with these speaker you have to spend more time and money to explore their potential. If you have space and want another pair of speaker which offer similar performance but warmer tone, I would recommend you should give MG 3.7i a listen. I own both speakers and think they are world class speaker despire their low retail price.
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I love when someone has speaker issues and people suggest multi thousand dollar boxes full of capacitors for AC.
The problem is, there isn't any evidence to suggest that the SS8s are the problem. Swapping in a much cheaper speaker, that isn't nearly as resolving, and claiming the source of the issue has been identified is ridiculous.
If you are unhappy with the picture on your television, you don't smear vasoline over your glasses to remedy your displeasure. You calibrate the TV, and complete the due diligence needed to locate and solve the issue.
Blaming "glare," "hardness," "harshness," and "brightness" on just the speaker, whose primary job is to transduce what it is being fed, is crazy.
Why would anyone purposefully design a speaker with those attributes?
SurgeX, Furman, Brickwall, PI Audio, Torus, Bryston, Equitech, etc, etc, all make products to service various AC issues and needs, in both the audiophile and professional audio demographics.
Are they just all peddling snake oil?
Also, multi-thousand dollar units? Huh?
I suggested a PI Audio Magikbus. $850 new, probably used for less than $500. Not out of place for a system spearheaded by a pair of $9K speakers.
Deep,
Did you mention that you have the DAC plugged into a common circuit, and not the dedicated circuit? Try switching it to the dedicated circuit. Digital equipment is notorious for being susceptible to noise.
Also, I would agree with the audiocircle member who suggested looking for someone local with a conditioner. I would also try and call PI Audio and see if they have anything lying around you could demo. The units are small, so space is not an issue.
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Find a manufacturer for a power conditioner that does a trial period. PI Audio does this (http://www.piaudiogroup.com/Home.html). Contact Dave to ask which you should try. The digibuss probably works with SMPS based units, while the Uber is for linear (your amp).
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I'll chime in with my 2 cents worth. I had auditioned a pair of SS8's from a local owner and thought they sounded great so I ordered a pair from Jim brand new. When I received them and set them up in my room with my electronics I was initially shocked and disappointed as they did not sound like what I had previously heard. Very bright and sterile.
Chatting with a couple forum members here I was told,but never actually verified from Accuton, that the Accuton drivers need several hundred hours to fully break in. So for the next 6 weeks while I would be at work I had the ability to play loud rock and r&b music for hours on end and they indeed began to smooth out and sound better. Much better...
I had attended the NewPort show last year and got to hear the new Von Schweikert vr55 speakers with Accuton drivers. I thought they sounded like finger nails on a chalk board and couldn't understand the appeal. Later that day I talked to one of the guys running that room and he mentioned the drivers were just installed before the show and had very little time on them. Fast forward to RMAF I got to hear them again but this time they were much smoother and very delicate sounding. To me it was almost a night and day difference. Guys in the room said they made it a point to get the drivers fully broken in or close to it for RMAF so that told me there must be something to it.
All that said, there are so many variables at play with trying to get a good sounding system put together in your home that it could be a number of reasons. But, if your SS8's have been seldom used then maybe you just need some time..
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I'll chime in with my 2 cents worth. I had auditioned a pair of SS8's from a local owner and thought they sounded great so I ordered a pair from Jim brand new. When I received them and set them up in my room with my electronics I was initially shocked and disappointed as they did not sound like what I had previously heard. Very bright and sterile.
Chatting with a couple forum members here I was told,but never actually verified from Accuton, that the Accuton drivers need several hundred hours to fully break in. So for the next 6 weeks while I would be at work I had the ability to play loud rock and r&b music for hours on end and they indeed began to smooth out and sound better. Much better...
I had attended the NewPort show last year and got to hear the new Von Schweikert vr55 speakers with Accuton drivers. I thought they sounded like finger nails on a chalk board and couldn't understand the appeal. Later that day I talked to one of the guys running that room and he mentioned the drivers were just installed before the show and had very little time on them. Fast forward to RMAF I got to hear them again but this time they were much smoother and very delicate sounding. To me it was almost a night and day difference. Guys in the room said they made it a point to get the drivers fully broken in or close to it for RMAF so that told me there must be something to it.
All that said, there are so many variables at play with trying to get a good sounding system put together in your home that it could be a number of reasons. But, if your SS8's have been seldom used then maybe you just need some time..
Yep, totally agree. However, this is what the OP had to say:
Stercom suggests the speakers may not be broken in. They have been played almost daily between 4 and 10 hours daily for over a year.
So I guess he played them 4 - 10 hours a day for over a year :D
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Yep, totally agree. However, this is what the OP had to say:
So I guess he played them 4 - 10 hours a day for over a year :D
Didn't see that, thanks!
So who the hell knows, :D
I know I've tried placing the speakers off different walls and different angles in the same room and could get really different sound and imaging.
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I don't want to start a flame war on this, but here is some truth.
I can say this after having some personal conversations of owners in the past, and other owners of all kinds of similar speakers in the past that use some of the more exotic drivers it ultimately comes down to "Overrating" industry trends, and end up in many overpriced materials used in designs because everybody jumps on the supposed most advanced bandwagon to compete at your local Audio Hotel shows.
First off the more "Exotic" the materials used in acoustic designs from my experience, and in my opinion the more risk they are not going to be as stable, or musical to the average human.
Take Kevlar drivers, or ceramics like the Accuton, some composites, etc...
The only thing I have truly heard that can be used really well for the money is the Diamond, and Beryllium tweeters in some designs. However, honestly from owning multiple designs using Aluminum, Kevlar, Ceramic, and even "Polyglass"... The best of the best for midrange, mid-woofers, even SUB woofers 9 times out of 10 ends up being the most natural material, and cheapest still available... PAPER!
Obviously depending on the treatment of the paper for durability, deterioration, and implementation will vary, but it sounds good. You want musical go with the companies that get the basics right, and get you to the promise land without overhyped / overpriced drivers..
You can argue all you want that paper, or more standard drivers are not as capable of the dynamics, or accuracy many of these off the shelf exotic drivers produced in the last 10 years provide, but you would be wrong sorry.
Not the best analogy, but live music for P.A. Reinforcement, and many professional applications including all your run of the mill guitar amps, speakers whatever still use ... That's right PAPER! And they are as efficient, and in-destructible as any exotic 86 to 88 db home drivers, and they ain't got no ceramic drivers that made that music, or mastered that music most of the time. All these super Audio materials are simply a business within a business if you know the real sound results.
So sometimes this could just be a case that the simpler the better. I have a 30 year old pair of high efficiency horns with Titanium tweeters that can slay anything from these newer box designs, even the newest Avantgarde Horns don't surprisingly add much to the equation with advanced horn designs. In the end synergy is everything when you want to get the to best results not the most exotic box with exotic European drivers dropped in it.
I am not saying there is ultimately a right or wrong here, but sometimes you gotta realize you need to go with what works, and makes you happy so maybe a few in this thread are correct... Stop fighting yourself, and change the speakers. You want less ringing, or abnormal response a lot of the time basic materials will excel in your extended listening sessions regardless of acoustic conditions.
I figured the name of the thread was "Are the SS8's the wrong speaker for me?" so the answer is simply they might be!
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From what I've read, it sounds like the OP is trying to get by without investing a lot into electronics, power management, and other tweaks to optimize the sound. But in my experience with speakers of this calibre, mating with similar calibre electronics and working with other system tweaks is definitely needed to chase down gremlins getting in the way of my connection to the music. A few observations based on the posts:
1) Dedicated circuits do not fully isolate the components from noise. Power conditioning still matters.
2) Digital sources are keenly susceptible to noise. Get those things onto the dedicated line, and definitely invest in power conditioning - at the very least for the digital side of the equation.
3) Off the shelf computers are very noisy beasts, even if used as a dedicated music player. And running JRiver would be just the very tippy-toe start to what is needed for a clean source of digital files without a bunch of hash that can easily create glare in the irritating upper mids/lower treble. There's a reason people invest in CAPS servers, or any number of other audiophile music servers in the exploding market for optimizing digital playback. Optmizing the handling of all those bits is essential for getting the most out of your system. And even if you're not trying to get the absolute most out of your system, dirty digital can definitely create a harsher, more sterile sound with glare in the upper mids. Probably a bad combo with those Accuton drivers.
4) Ditto using just a standard USB cable to connect to DAC - at the very least using one of a variety of cheap solutions to disconnect the noisy 5V power leg from the computer to the DAC would be an excellent test of how much noise from the computer is contributing to what OP is hearing
5) While his electronics are certainly nothing to sneeze at, and perfectly competent, they may not be an excellent match to the speakers for his tastes. If this is the case, even with getting rid of the noise in the computer-DAC source realm, he still wouldn't be satisfied. And so, still may end up either needing to change speakers, or change pre/amp for the right synergy.
6) IC's and speaker cables can make differences - but should be used as final tweaks, not as initial ones.
7) I just moved from a house with very lively surfaces with lots of reflections to a house with a much larger audio room and heavy carpeting. The system had been tweaked for the lively room, and now sounds very lush, languid, and overdamped. I'm having to play with a lot of tweaks to make the system sound more lively. Speaker placement, moving around acoustic treatments, ceramic ball bearings in footers instead of stainless steel have all helped. And last night, swapping tubes in my DAC from 300b's to 45's made a really nice difference - I'm almost to where I like things again. Before this, I wasn't really listening much because the system was sounding too boring.
Overall strategy: First, get rid of the noise in your system, so you can clearly hear what your electronics, speakers, and cabling are all contributing to the sound. Then find the right system synergy for you by trying different combinations. And everything matters.
It sounds to me like the OP is not willing to go through all that effort, even though his speakers are clearly worth doing so. It also sounds like others with SS8's have had similar issues and have valued moving on to either Exotica's or other speaker brands. Given that's the case, I'd recommend heading out to Newport this weekend and having a listen to a bunch of other speakers and seeing what kind of speakers will be your next exploration in this hobby.
Easy test for susceptibility to source noise: get a cheap USB solution that interrupts the 5V from the computer to your DAC, and eliminates it entirely (if your DAC doesn't need the 5V), or provides its own clean 5V to your DAC.
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The problem is, there isn't any evidence to suggest that the SS8s are the problem. Swapping in a much cheaper speaker, that isn't nearly as resolving, and claiming the source of the issue has been identified is ridiculous.
I suggested a PI Audio Magikbus. $850 new, probably used for less than $500. Not out of place for a system spearheaded by a pair of $9K speakers.
Agreed.
I would try a different source as an experiment. Your dac combined with your PC could be a huge factor. I've heard that your dac leans toward the analytical side. Try a friends audiophile CD player or try a different dac.
I've been in a similar situation, where a friend let me borrow his speakers, which were more resolving than mine and the result was that my rig sounded too bright and etched. All that happened was that his speakers revealed all the problems I had upstream, that were being masked by my speakers.
I also like all the suggestions about tweaking the speaker placement. Check out Jim Smith's book 'Get Better Sound' as he is a master at speaker placement. The Uberbuss power conditioner is also an excellent suggestion. I took mine over to a friends house to demo and we all heard the music sound less etchy.
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I officially went down the rabbit hole of caps last weekend. Out went the Solens' and in went Jupiter VT Caps. Also changed to Jantzen wax foil inductors. I really like the changes. Detail is up and the speakers still just disappear.
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Maybe he just doesn't like the speakers :scratch:
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Sorry... I never even heard of Duroche Capacitors to be honest, and from a quality standpoint can't say whether or not they differ much from Solen's anyway in this case. I assume some earlier versions used the Solens like my Prima did, maybe they have been changed over the years again I can't really say.
Mundorf Silver/Oils are decent in electronics, Silver/Gold/Oils are slightly better, but honestly both are better used in Speaker crossovers not electronics from a tonal point of view in my experience, but also you would never get Standard Mundorf's to fit the Prima chassis most likely.
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Sorry... I never even heard of Duroche Capacitors to be honest, and from a quality standpoint can't say whether or not they differ much from Solen's anyway in this case. I assume some earlier versions used the Solens like my Prima did, maybe they have been changed over the years again I can't really say.
Mundorf Silver/Oils are decent in electronics, Silver/Gold/Oils are slightly better, but honestly both are better used in Speaker crossovers not electronics from a tonal point of view in my experience, but also you would never get Standard Mundorf's to fit the Prima chassis most likely.
Haha, I deleted my post, didn't want to go off topic. I tend to like Mundorf SGO in electronics, but its all personal taste. A few companies use them: Rogue, Melody, K&K, etc. I find them true to the source and detailed. I think they work well in tube electronics, probably wouldn't use them in a solid state unit. Anyways, nice work again on your unit.
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Do you have the Fleetwood Mac album? Warm Ways sounds wonderful with the RAAL tweeter. (My speakers don't have the Accutron mid.)
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Hey Deep,
Maybe I can lend a few thoughts. Somewhere out here I did my best to compare the SS8's (which I owned at the time) to BRM's Exotica 12's. - They are very different speakers.
I'm also one that believes that given "good" equipment - that 75% or more of a systems sound is still the speakers. (Do I believe amps, pre-amps, sources and DAC's sound different - absolutely, but the law of diminishing returns applies AND the more revealing your speaker is determines what differences you hear).
The SS8 is a very revealing speaker. It's accurate, it's pretty darn dynamic, and in some sense - yes it can sound "bright". I love dynamics myself, I like that super crisp sound of a snare drum, I like to hear that midrange crunch on a good Les Paul ripping through a Marshall stack. But I don't like bright or fatiguing speakers.
It's a very, very tough balance to get. In my case I am a rock/blues/reggae listener. So - I have a lot of bad recordings or remastered stuff that was rendered too bright.
The SS8 is likely the best speaker I've owned (I sold them in a bit of a budget crunch) and the SS7c is the best center channel I've owned. The Klipsch Palladium P27 was the second best center I've owned - why - both are very revealing, crisp, accurate speakers. In a center channel, that is what you want.
There were times that I thought the SS8 was a bit bright/fatiguing, but it was usually when I was listening at bright recordings at 87db's or above. The SS8 was one of the few speakers I could really hear differences in electronics. My favorite combo with them was with Classe gear (preamp and amp). - Classe has a warm sound.
After selling them I ran some old NHT 3.3's for a while - also an extremely accurate speaker with a little more bass punch (didn't play any lower, but was a bit punchier). Again, on the same recordings at the same levels - they were a bit fatiguing.
Before the SS8's - I had the klipsch palladium P37, which is a very accurate speaker also and super dynamic. Also could get fatiguing - with one difference. I felt that when turned up the Palladiums brought cymbals too forward in the mix.
Why do I mention those 3 speakers.
- All are accurate, all are dynamic.
Klipsch - Horn
Salk - RAAL
NHT - Metal Dome
So, three different designs, all accurate - all could get fatiguing.
Now, I've listened to BRM's Exotica 12's.
- I am confident that I could listen to those at 95 db's for hours on end and never get fatigued. Regardless of recording. They are as accurate as the others, and probably image better than anything I've ever heard. They are not quite as dynamic, and while they imaged the best, they didn't have quite that "big" sound that the other 3 (well the NHT couldn't as well because of the baffle design) had. They are awesome. But - they are not for me. I'm not willing to give up the dynamics.
Currently I have some JBL S3900's - a horn loaded speaker that I picked up used. They are dynamic, fast, but in NO way bright. In fact, borderline darker sounding. The center channel (not an exact match) also a bit dark and it's not my favorite center. It's good, but it's not as good as the SS7.
Why do I mention those two.
Exotica 12 - dome
JBL S3900 - Horn
No one I know considers either bright.
As for your SS8's - you can play around with them all you want, but IMO they are what they are (and I consider them the best speakers I've owned, even with the tradeoffs).
It's possible you do like the dyn's better. I have liked some of the Dyn Audio I've heard in the past also (I like the focus 380) it's a dynamic speaker and a little less fatiguing on the top.
I might suggest trying Classe or McIntosh gear if you want to go solid state and stick with the SS8's (I also have a older harman kardon signature 1.5 amp that puts out a ton of current that I found very warm with them).
If it turns out they just aren't the right speaker for you - it happens. Doesn't mean it's not a wonderful speaker, because it is. Just means it's not the one for you. Great speakers and I loved working with Jim.
I've very much considered going back to the SS8 one day when I can afford it. In my case I might talk to Jim about different tweeters also (I'm interested to know how the pair built with the beryillium tweeter sounded different).
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Hi Guys,
Just thought I would chime in with my opinion of Salk Sound speakers and their use of Solen Capacitors. Not everyone agrees that boutique capacitors make a huge difference in improving sonic quality. I know that Jim supplies his speakers using Solen capacitors and he and Dennis are not totally convinced for the need of expensive boutique capacitors.
I live in Australia and a local speaker designer uses Axon capacitors (which are similar to solen capacitors) and he indicated he doesn't hear a difference with more expensive capacitors. Sometimes all they so is smooth the sound out and affect other sonic attributes. Its all in the design of the speakers.
I would probably suggest that these speakers aren't for the OP and perhaps they are just too revealing. I use Salk Sound HT3's and I can easily hear the difference between poor quality and average recordings. My HT3's perform at their best when I use really high quality recordings such as Checky.
Listening to 60's and 70's recordings just won't cut it with these speakers. Perhaps look at another type of speaker as its all about the combination of good quality electronics, speakers and software.
Cheers Rod
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DEP14,
That was one of the best posts I have seen on any audio board! :thumb: :thumb:
It was thoughtful, informative, and insightful without being condescending or preachy.
We should all strive to make posts like that.
George
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DEP14,
That was one of the best posts I have seen on any audio board! :thumb: :thumb:
It was thoughtful, informative, and insightful without being condescending or preachy.
We should all strive to make posts like that.
George
Agreed, I had that same thought. Great thread
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DEP14,
That was one of the best posts I have seen on any audio board! :thumb: :thumb:
It was thoughtful, informative, and insightful without being condescending or preachy.
We should all strive to make posts like that.
George
Thanks - it's supposed to be a fun hobby.
Someday I'll design my own perfect speaker. I already have a name for it.
"Imaginary Unicorn"
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Dennis Murphy asked if the speakers sounded the same? Yes they sound the same. I used a Stereophile test cd to make that determination.
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USB cable is a Wireworld - Ultraviolet if I recall correctly.
Trying the dac plugged into the dedicated circuit.
Tried a more aggressive change in dropping high without success.
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I went through the same thing many years ago with a pair of big Dunleavy IV speakers that had gotten rave reviews universally. The rest of my equipment just wasn't up to the task of bringing out the best in them, so they sounded bright and harsh. I managed to tame them to a certain extent with some upgrades, but was never completely satisfied with them. I wonder how they would sound with my current equipment, a far cry from what I had in those days. That said, the problem here is bad AC in the evenings, which I've never solved using many different power conditioners, battery amps, and the like.
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While there is some labor of love which needs to be involved (placement/measurement and calibration), I will state that OP's gear is good enough for the speaker. Questioning him or his equipment or down to cable is :nono: :duh: Maybe one should ask for ear measurements as well? Not all have same taste and same speaker does not work for everyone.
deep - I'm with Kishore and several other members on this one. Salks are fine speakers; an honest product with strong value. This does not mean they are a one-size fits all answer, as no speaker is. Your gear is certainly good enough to do them justice.
Every human ear is unique, as is every brain. There is not a single speaker on this planet that will work for everybody.
You've made reasonable effort to get the speakers to work, and you've tried several affordable changes to your system.
I'd honestly talk to the folks at GIK Acoustics, as for a couple hundred dollars you're guaranteed to have acoustic treatments that will benefit whichever speaker ends up in your listening room. There's a fair chance they may change your opinion on your SS8, but more importantly you won't have to adjust them in any way for the next speakers in your room.
Best,
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Not that you need another opinion at this point, as I cant help but notice that every piece of gear in the chain, including cables and lack of power filtering, has been mentioned for being the problem… Nothing left to pick at! :lol:
Maybe no one is wrong here. It could be everything having a small effect leading you to bad sound. Synergy is everything!
I started out with Parasound Halo in the beginning so I can attest to that one first hand as being more ‘mid-fi’ (lack of real tone/timber and smoothness). I can also attest to good power conditioning/filtering being something that helped me rid my system of hardness and glare —in a system that should of already been great but wasn't (voltage regulation was huge for my system!). Also agree that the noise a standard PC can bring into a system can give these issues, too…
At this speaker price point, it is indeed a labor of love to work up into synergy and to create, piece by piece, the sound you want out of them… Im sure many would say you CAN get these speakers to sound smooth. it just takes very thorough and careful complete system matching. If that is something you are not willing to do...then you know what to do.
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Hi Deep,
Any chance a local Audiocircle member could come to your home and perhaps try another amplifier in your system?
Good luck.
Cheers Rod
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Synergy is everything!
Yes, something that has not been mentioned is that Salk speakers have a very good synergy with Audio by Van Alstine electronics. The AVA Synergy amp is a good match with the RAAL. I have the Salk HT2-TL speakers with the RAAL tweeter, AVA Synergy amp, AVA FET Valve pre-amp and my sound is the opposite of harsh and bright. Van Alstine has a 30 day return policy if you would like to try out one of their amps for just the price of shipping.
So in the long run it looks like you will either be replacing your speakers or electronics. You are going to take a big financial hit selling the speakers used with no guarantee your new speakers will sound wonderful with your existing electronics.
There is a 3rd option. Our audiophile group recently did a major trial using Dana Cables. Three high end systems in three different houses and my impressions are they are excellent cables but a little laid back in my system.
The Dana Cable TruStream USB is well made with woven shimmering graphite colored jacket that is very flexible, it reminds me of a snake. I would describe the sound as relaxed, with a rear of hall perspective. Highs are ever so slightly attenuated and bass is accented resulting in a warm rounded sound. Smooth too, with a refined presentation with no particular frequency given prominence.
A little too smooth in my system. The first impressions most people have of RAAL tweeters are they sound laid back but they are very clear. The TruStream made the RAAL's even more laid back. We compared the TruStream USB to a Nobility USB, Supra USB, Straightwire USB-Link, and a Curious Cable.
In a bright, analytical or edgy digital system the Danacable TruStream USB will bring that certain magic. Classical music lovers will also love this cable. We played Fanfare for the Common Man by Copeland at lifelike levels and it sounded jaw dropping so if you listen to music real loud then the TruStream USB is the cable for you.
The Dana Cable Onyx speaker cables had the same relaxed, laid back presentation with phenomenal deep bass and very "analog" sounding. All Dana Cables seem to be tuned for bright analytical systems or rooms.
Dana Cables website prices are crazy expensive and they don't work in my system but would do wonders in yours, they also have a 30-day money back guarantee and shipping costs are pennies compared to shipping an amp.
Hint: ask about a discount if buying more than one type of cable, you may be pleasantly surprised.
http://danacables.com/ (http://danacables.com/)
Wayne
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Only because you mentioned in your response to us that you do have some interest in crossover upgrades etc.. Here are a few things to chew on.
I can argue that the Kimber cables could be a less than desirable match. These are also fairly "Zippy", and thinner sounding. Upper echelon stuff from Kimber not so much, but the standard stuff like Hero's can get a bit "Harsh".
Also to be honest the Primaluna gear is good, but you need to find tubes that are much better than stock if that is what is being used. Not to mention once again like in my first post the Salks I believe use SOLEN fast caps, I know for a fact Primaluna uses SOLEN fast caps from the factory they add a lot of harsh highlighted tone to anything I ever hear them in.
And I owned Primaluna guess what the first thing to go was! That's right... Those dam Solen caps here are photos of my upgrades at the time... It's fairly easy, and reasonable cost to change caps in both, and in that speaker even if just on the tweeter, and the preamp. I think it can help a lot in the case of matching up better toward smoother sound overall regardless what speaker is used.
I used Mundorfs EVO, and Clarity cap ESA caps to replace them all. Cheap, and nearly as good as the top of the line caps from any cap company.
The Primaluna is a "Good" preamp, but might not tilt toward the most lush of tubes if you need to inject that I would suggest looking at something more along the lines of Mcintosh, or Conrad Johnson gear I originally suggested. And again Mundorf Evo, or Clarity ESA caps will also work great in your speakers as well.
Besides your not a true "Audiophile" until you tear apart a perfectly good piece of equipment, and replace the caps :icon_lol:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144136)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144137)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144138)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144139)
I know this is an old thread and this is off topic, but I thought I'd add my 2cents on the Primaluna upgrades, for anyone searching the subject, like I did and that ended up here. (I have a Prologue 4 power Amp).
Nice work upgrading all the caps, but I'm surprised you didn't upgrade the MOX resistors in series with each of the Clarity caps on the PCB. These 100R resistors are the ones Primaluna upgrades to Takman Carbon Film on their top models. They are cheap as chips and would have been easy to swap when the caps were being fitted. Due to the time that has elapsed, this is not really aimed at "undertow" and is general info for all.
Likewise, it looks as though the Input resistors are the std MOX, Takman Metal Films fitted here, would ensure a quite front end, that would benefit the down stream components.
The 0.47uF Film bypass cap on the big Nichicons in the power supply, is another candidate, as this is also upgraded on models further up the chain. A Mundorf Supreme, while commonly used as a passive crossover cap, is surprisingly good at cleaning up the PS when used in this location.
I'm no expert, but reading many threads, while researching an upgrade path for my own amp, pointed me at these areas for improvement.
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I wonder what the Op ended up doing with his situation. Discovered what it took to satisfy his ears with these speakers or did they go up for sale and they went in another direction. One without Raal tweeters?
Jeff
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I was wondering about that myself.
After finding this thread, when looking for Primaluna upgrades, I found it an interesting read.
It would be nice to know what direction the OP finally took. :popcorn:
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I have a pair of the SoundScape 8s. Received them the summer of 2017. Dark curly walnut. They are played darned near every day. They are a wonderful speaker. Put a smile on my face each time they’re on. Perhaps the OPs problem with them was the Accutron mid? Not everyone hears the same. Doesn’t matter, to each their own.
Jeff
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I might suggest trying Classe or McIntosh gear if you want to go solid state and stick with the SS8's (I also have a older harman kardon signature 1.5 amp that puts out a ton of current that I found very warm with them).
I drive my SS10s with McIntosh MC501 amps and C48 preamp and enjoy this combination very much. YMMV.