[thedeskE]

Mike and All
After the 200? hour mark, I'm getting the same result as the Essence break in. Instead of one defining moment, I get a multitude of `Ahhh! that's nice' moments with both Voom and DVDs. No matter how bad the source (some sat channels) the Pans offer me a smooth presentation. This leaves quite an impression.
When the source is good, ala DVDs, How Sweet It Is!
Strings and horns are on the money. Thank you very much Mr. Mid Range Driver (and the darn crossover too!)

Yet Another Happy Camper

E

[Mike Dzurko]

Mike and All
After the 200? hour mark, I'm getting the same result as the Essence break in. Instead of one defining moment, I get a multitude of `Ahhh! that's nice' moments with both Voom and DVDs. No matter how bad the source (some sat channels) the Pans offer me a smooth presentation. This leaves quite an impression.
When the source is good, ala DVDs, How Sweet It Is!
Strings and horns are on the money. Thank you very much Mr. Mid Range Driver (and the darn crossover too!)

Yet Another Happy Camper

E

Great stuff E . . . this is exactly our goal.  Enjoy the camping and do tell us more as you get the chance!

[thedeskE]

Thanks Mike
While everyone talks about music as their standard for most speaker tests, I've grown to love the Score, Sound Design and Foley in my film collection.
With the exception of explosions and other subwoofer moments, this seems to be a rare subject. What keeps my interest in a film long after I've memorized the story is all the little things going on around the action, or even the sounds of weather, objects, animals, etc. There is amazng work going on here and I always seem to find more with each pass. It's easy enough to play something like a Matrix film just to hear the sounds. I know I'm not alone on this. The mix in a Fincher film is state of the art when it comes to being in a room or on the street.

I love how much `further in' I'm getting with the new Panoramas, and of course, the Essence anchoring the center. Tonight's movie was The Fugative and in spite of it's age, there were lots of sounds and instruments in the score that made the viewing seem new. It will take time, but I feel like I have 200 fresh treats waiting in my collection.

I have a new excuse to revisit the titles.

I'll get around to the music at some point  

E

[Harry P]

E, I'm looking forward to hearing more about your Panoramas and Essence. I've been enjoying my Protege front end very much indeed!

[thedeskE]

Harry
No problem. I've noticed a finer amount of break in over the past 6 weeks.
I'll give 50% to me and 50 to the speakers. The recent addition of an SV Ultra has been a big surprise with how the LF crosses to the Panos and the Essence. I didn't expect such a smooth transition. I have 1 big room mode at 46, and use my receiver filter to help it at -4db.
I have to walk right to the corner to localize the Sub. This is how it should be, but the LF is so good from the ACIs (even crossed they reach below the point to a degree) that I'm getting the best cross width I've ever known in my room. This is not my first SVU. The ACIs are making the difference.
I callibrate the LF a little hot.

There were a few days without a sub during my upgrade and the Pans, Sapps, and Essence performed so well down low, it was obvious I could almost go without a sub on 90% of my normal evening viewing.
I'm used to a speaker being rated at a mid 30s, but not really being able to go there. The spec on the Panorama is No BS. Impressive!

More thoughts on the way. I'll be fabricating acoustic treatment for the room and posting a link for those who care to see the progress.
If they sound this good now, what's gonna happen when I get the room under control?

E

[thedeskE]

As usual in my world, everything is late. I'm just getting my room cleared for the treatment process. In the mean time, I have a scaled down setup, with just the Sapphires and no sub (the temp room is small)

Tonight I sat down for a break and let a few Voom channels keep me company. The Matrix Reloaded was on one of the HD channels, and normally I don't watch what I have on DVD, but I did give it a pass for 30 minutes. There were a number of times when those little Sapphires just kicked into gear with way more LF than they're supposed to produce. Well, perhaps not. Memory fades, and I did add the Panoramas based on the performance of the Sapphires.

I listened to the Sapps in 2 channel only a few times, and there's always been a sub in the system. When the Pans arrived, they were moved to the back. It's been great having such a fine set in the rear, but tonight was an interesting reminder of how good they are. Nice!

My temporary rig will be just fine.

E

[Rich Carlson]

Could you post your impressions of the differences between the Sapphires and Panoramas?  I'm sure that many of us who own Sapphires would be interested ...

Rich

[thedeskE]

Rich

The Sap & Pan share the same tweeter ( I think Mike confirmed this) but the mid driver in the Pan makes a huge difference. Should go without saying that the tweet and low driver have much less to handle with a 3 way system.

Certain material that might get a little canny in the mid range with the Sap, just doesn't happen with the Pans. This is not to say the Sap has any bad character in the mids ( I could easily have the Sapps back in front and be happy) but it's what you'd expect as the main difference. I have no data to back this up, but my basic feeling is that the Pans would love a little more power. The 150 (or whatever it really is) in my B&K seems fine for now, but I lust for 250 or so under a channel. Bryston comes to mind when I dream

Both speakers are amazing down low, and have really impressed me on a number of occasions. Last night was an eye opener with the Saps, however the Pans will actually fill a small or medium room with LF that sounds and feels like a small sub when you have them in full range. No Kidding! The box is just as rigid and heavy as some of the big name suudio speakers I've been around (in the same size)

I think Mike did a great job with the top in every model I've tested. As many have said before, you get outstanding results mixing the models.

When my room is in better condition, I'll have more. Just like everybody else, I get excited and crank it up, and I start to hear more room than speaker. I've been thinking about the acoustics for a long time, and the Pans helped force the issue.

Hope that's enough for now. Perhaps some of the other `Pano Heads' will chime in!  Bill has the same set & of course, thugh is the Pano King.

E

[Rich Carlson]

Thanks very much, E.  A Bryston 3B-SST is what I use with my Sapphire III Le's - a great amp, if not quite the 250 watts you lust after ...

You're right about room treatments.  I recently redid my room with Echobusters treatments and it really helped.

Anyone else with Sapphire/Panorama comments?

Rich

[thedeskE]

Rich
The SSTs are Really Nice!
I had a 6B in mind for the front and a 4 channel version of the 9B for the surrounds. I think I'd have to have some version of a `Ship Coming In' to cut the check, not to mention the 2 circuits I'd need available for the big juice.

E

[Bill-99]

Rich,

Like E, I also have Panoramas, Essence and Sapphires. It's been interesting living with them for a while. Label all of this as IMHO.

The Sapphires were first on the scene with the intent of replacing some Snell E-IVs -- a nice speaker but metal dome tweeters have become more and more irritating over the years. The Sapphires easily bested the Snells. Lots of non-fatiguing detail that was never obvious before.

On a hunch, and some encouragement in another forum, I picked up the Panoramas. They seem to add another layer of detail beyond the Sapphires, and the midrange is fuller, richer. I agree with E about the amount of usable bass. The Sapphires need a sub, but the Panoramas handle stereo duty without one very well.

In terms of differences, the Snells were a couple of steps up from what they replaced -- Large Advents, 70s vintage. The Sapphires were a step up from the Snells. The Panoramas were a step up from the Sapphires. Each upgrade has been something of a revelation re: what's possible. In any case, I don't see these speakers leaving my system any time soon!

-Bill

[BeeBop]

I have a 3BSST and a pair of 25th Anniversary Sapphires. I am very happy with the sound, but like others here have been mulling over a pair of Panoramas. For now, still have other parts of the system to fill in. Started out with a receiver, now have the amp/pre-amp (3BSST/BP25); a top quality CD player is in next year's budget. Maybe after that...

[thedeskE]

I would imagine the 3BSST is plenty for Panoramas. My thoughts about going higher could be a waste of money.
I tend to forget how much more headroom there would be with a Bryston 150 channel with it's own power supply, verses what's in a receiver.

Perhaps Mike will have an opinion about the Brystons with the Pans & Saps.

If I only required 2 channels instead of 7 it would be easy, although I will most likely keep the RS low budget, given the fact that they're only used 10% of the time.

Last night, there was yet another moment when the Sapphires made me turn my head. All that sound coming from those little monitors? This is turning into a very interesting exercise for me. I should spend more time with 2 channel in the future. It's obvious I didn't give them enough time in full range when they were serving front duty in the 5 ch set up.


E

[Bill-99]

BeeBop,

Interesting that you've dealt with the amp/preamp so thoroughly. Nice equipment, BTW... but I'm sure you already know that. To tell the truth, I'm a bit envious.

My amplification upgrade path was:
- really awful receiver that I'm embarrassed to name -->
- Acurus DIA100 integrated amp -->
- Denon AVR-3300 receiver -->
- B&K AVR507 receiver

While I really enjoy the B&K, I still remember how the Acurus had a firm grip on whatever it drove. The 507/Panorama combo isn't quite as tight, but it is more musical. IMO the Acurus was a bit dry.

Have you driven the Sapphires with other amps? If so, what kind of results did you get?

-Bill

[thedeskE]

One of the big reasons I'm enjoying the Sapphires so much in my temp setup is the fact that my B&K has nothing to push but the single pair. It goes without saying there's quite a bit more headroom, and you can hear it. Not a big surprise, but something I didn't want to spoil myself with until the day I could visit my close friend who sells the good stuff and beg for cost plus 5.

Just when I thought it was safe to use only one pair.
Boy did I screw up

E

[eastberlin]

I've had Sapphire IIIs as my main L/R speakers with a Titan sub for the past 6+ years.  I've been amazed at how different the Sapphires can sound with different gear.  Here's my upgrade path and my memory of the sound of the Sapphires with each source/amp.

Proton D940 as a Receiver - Dark but fairly dynamic
A Pair of bridged Proton D940s (amp only) - Better, but unstable at higher output levels
Yamaha 992 Receiver - very dry sounding, thin, almost raspy, quick fatigue
Yamaha 992 (pre out -> Bridged Proton D940s) - Warmer than just the 992, but still rather quick onset of ear fatigue
Rotel RC-972 pre -> Proton D940 amp - better, especially imaging
Rotel RC-972 -> Musical Fidelity A3CR amp - Wow, day and night, hearing bass, details and ambience like never before.  Could listen for hours without fatigue especially with MSB Gold Link III DAC.  Unfortunately sold this amp and DAC thinking I needed to focus on HT.  It would take years to get back to this level of performance.
Yamaha 992 -> Rotel 1080 amp - Way better than just the 992, but paled in comparison to previous system in 2 channel (watching more movies)
Tag Mclaren AV32R -> Rotel 1080 amp - The Tag has an amazing 2 channel sound even in a 5.1 system, the Rotel is not as detailed and dynamic as A3CR was, but really happy with this compromise
Tag Mclaren AV32R -> EAD Powermaster 2000 -> Day and night over the Rotel amp, way lower noise floor, unlimited dynamics totally different class of sound.  Finally exceeded the best 2 channel system of years before.

Basically the Sapphire IIIs are the only part of my system that has remained the same since 1998.  I have also tested pretty much every one of the above setups with ACI Emeralds too.  What I learned is the Emeralds are more forgiving of lesser quality front end stuff, they just play music.  The Sapphire IIIs demand higher quality and demand your involvement as a listener in a way that other speakers don't.  Come to think of it, those Sapphires have probably ended up costing me thousands of dollars to try to feed their thirst for better and better quality sources.

[thedeskE]

eastberlin

Interesting transition. The first time I opened the Panorama boxes, I knew they'd be hungry. The Sapphires didn't seem that way until I put them in the current setup alone.

As I said, I didn't need to hear these `Wake Up' right now (that's a lie!) I'm busy with the room. Along with the added control in the new space, there will be a need for more gain, which is welcome, but it's going to make the desire even stronger for that Stak O' Bstons and a pre.

Darn, I think I see 2 new 20A circuits in the corner  


E

[eastberlin]

You'll definitely want the dedicated lines.  I installed a 20A line with 10gauge cable when I got the EAD amp since at peak it can draw as much as 2Kw.  I can't rave enough about the beautiful sound and unlimited headroom of that amp.  It can output 400 watts per channel X 5, and the Sapphires love it.  Before I bought it (used) I read alot of reviews that it compares favorably with the likes of bryston and krell, and the best part is you can pick one up on the used market for 2500-2700.  That's for 5 channels.  Of course it weighs 150lbs, so it's no fun to ship.  I'm just dying to know what my system would sound like with the Panos.

[thedeskE]

Opening a Pano box is a lot of fun. Your EAD wants you to do it!


 

[Mikeyb]

I own the 25th Anniversary Sapphires, and while I am very satisfied with them, I am interested in demoing the Panoramas.  I had been thinking of waiting until tax refund time when my upgraditis is easier to deal with.

But, should a pair of Cherry Panoramas appear on the deals page at a "too good to pass up" price, I may have to jump at it before then.  However, I am still concerned that the differences between the two speakers just won't be as perceivable as I hope.  Example:  My Sapphires replaced Paradigm Studio 60v2 speakers.  I was hard pressed to identify differences between these two dissimilar speakers.  The one thing I did become aware of was that I enjoyed listing to music and movies more with the sappires.  Not a lot more, but more.  But I don't know specifically why.  I have a Titan II sub that may have something to do with that however (an Essence too).  Previous sub was no slouch though - a Paradigm PW-2200.

So, with this in mind, I think there is a chance I would end up sending the Panoramas back.  If I were to keep the Pano's, I would definitely not be keeping the Sapphires - Can't move to rear - am limited to on wall (unfortunately, the on-wall Emeralds are too big).  Anyone know what 25th Anniversary Sapphires go for on the used market?  Mine are in Cherry and are less than 1.5yrs old.  Perfect condition.

Also, any more advice on differences between the two speakers when used in a multi-channel setup?  I listen to two channel a lot, but always with the Titan II LE in the mix.