AudioCircle
Industry Circles => NuPrime Audio => Topic started by: HansSo on 24 Aug 2023, 09:52 am
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I have now owned a Stream-9 for about a month and while I am generally very happy with it I have run into 3 issues.
I use the Stream-9 as a DLNA renderer controlled by LogitechMediaServer (lms) through the DLNA bridge plugin. Initially tracks were from my own library (both MP3 and Apple Lossless) and Spotify.
Issue nr 1.
If playback is set to gapless then the Stream-9 plays tracks perfectly gapless but the information on the display is only correct for the first track in a playlist, it never updates and keeps displaying the information for the first track. Strangly the Omnia App does display the correct information indicating that the Stream-9 does know the correct information (it is sending it to the App) but for some reason doesn't updates it's display. I found some posts on the WiiM forum (WiiM also uses a Linkplay module) from people having the same problem in the same situation. There this was solved with a firmware update (to version 4.6.516229).
Now I have recently added Qobuz as a streaming service besides Spotify and this has resulted in the next 2 issues.
Issue nr 2.
With the addition of Qobuz tracks are no longer all 16bit/44.1kHz with higher rates from Qobuz. When the sample-rate changes sometimes there is a short fraction of the beginning of the track missing. This is not caused by the DAC (a DAC-9) because if I use SRC on the Stream-9 to send a constant sample-rate to the DAC-9 the problem remains. It is also not caused by lms or the DLNA bridge because if I send the same playlist using the same settings to another streamer (the builtin streamer of my Marantz AV Receiver) then there is no problem.
Issue nr 3.
When playing a track from Qobuz at 192kHz there are frequent clicks, pops and dropouts. Again this is not caused by the DAC-9 as this will accept sample-rates up to 384kHz without problems and also not by lms or the DLNA bridge as playing the same track (at the same sample-rate) on the Marantz works perfectly.
My work around for Issue 1 is only enabling gapless playback if necessary (and the display is not my main source of information about the playing track anyway).
Work around for issues 2 and 3 are to set the DLNA bridge to re-sample everything to 88.2kHz. Since I do not hear any difference between the original track at 192kHz and the same track down-sampled to 88.2kHz this is a perfectly acceptable work around.
I do however feel these issues should get some attention from the developers.
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See https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=185079.0
Contact support@nuprimeaudio.com for a firmware update.
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Hello rustydoglim
While I am not conviced the issues in the treath linked by you are the same I am willing to try. Email send to support requesting the firmware update.
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I have now owned a Stream-9 for about a month and while I am generally very happy with it I have run into 3 issues.
I use the Stream-9 as a DLNA renderer controlled by LogitechMediaServer (lms) through the DLNA bridge plugin. Initially tracks were from my own library (both MP3 and Apple Lossless) and Spotify.
Issue nr 1.
If playback is set to gapless then the Stream-9 plays tracks perfectly gapless but the information on the display is only correct for the first track in a playlist, it never updates and keeps displaying the information for the first track. Strangly the Omnia App does display the correct information indicating that the Stream-9 does know the correct information (it is sending it to the App) but for some reason doesn't updates it's display. I found some posts on the WiiM forum (WiiM also uses a Linkplay module) from people having the same problem in the same situation. There this was solved with a firmware update (to version 4.6.516229).
Now I have recently added Qobuz as a streaming service besides Spotify and this has resulted in the next 2 issues.
Issue nr 2.
With the addition of Qobuz tracks are no longer all 16bit/44.1kHz with higher rates from Qobuz. When the sample-rate changes sometimes there is a short fraction of the beginning of the track missing. This is not caused by the DAC (a DAC-9) because if I use SRC on the Stream-9 to send a constant sample-rate to the DAC-9 the problem remains. It is also not caused by lms or the DLNA bridge because if I send the same playlist using the same settings to another streamer (the builtin streamer of my Marantz AV Receiver) then there is no problem.
Issue nr 3.
When playing a track from Qobuz at 192kHz there are frequent clicks, pops and dropouts. Again this is not caused by the DAC-9 as this will accept sample-rates up to 384kHz without problems and also not by lms or the DLNA bridge as playing the same track (at the same sample-rate) on the Marantz works perfectly.
My work around for Issue 1 is only enabling gapless playback if necessary (and the display is not my main source of information about the playing track anyway).
Work around for issues 2 and 3 are to set the DLNA bridge to re-sample everything to 88.2kHz. Since I do not hear any difference between the original track at 192kHz and the same track down-sampled to 88.2kHz this is a perfectly acceptable work around.
I do however feel these issues should get some attention from the developers.
Yes, mine has the same issues #2 & #3! Thanks for the workaround tips for those issues.
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Try the manual update instructions on App & Firmware tab on https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/stream-9/ (https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/stream-9/)
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Hello esiu,
It is always nice to hear that your advice is useful to other people and that you are not the only one with a paticular issue so thanks for your reply.
While I was typing this reply rustydoglim posted information on how to obtain the updated firmware so I will try that and report the results of my testing as soon as possible.
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After a few hours testing here are the results sofar. More testing will be necessary to reach a definitive conclusion.
First let me explain in more detail how I use the Stream-9. While some of the tracks I am listening to are coming from Qobuz my Stream-9 does not "stream from Qobuz" what it is actually doing is playing wav files from a DLNA server. It does not know these "files" don't really exist and are created on the fly from data downloaded from Qobuz by lms, decoded to PCM and then presented as a "file" by the DLNA bridge. One of things I still need to test is what happens if I let the Stream-9 stream directly from Qobuz.
So the first results are :
Issue nr 1.
This is still present but as it was never claimed this was solved this is no surprise.
There is actually a difference in the way gapless playback is functioning in the new release but I will discuss this in another post.
Issue nr 2.
The missing start of tracks after a sample-rate change. This is NOT solved. At least not with my setup. It is however repeatable and I will do more tests by streaming directly from Qobuz to the Stream-9.
Issue nr 3.
Clicks and pops while streaming at 192kHz. This seems to be solved. The only time this seems to happen now is when the first track of a playlist is 192kHz or if the flow of the playlist is interrupted by skipping to a 192kHz track. I am not sure this remaining problem is actually caused by the Stream-9 it might be a lms issue. I will do more test to determine this.
If I have more information I will post it.
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playing wav files from a DLNA server. It does not know these "files" don't really exist and are created on the fly from data downloaded from Qobuz by lms, decoded to PCM and then presented as a "file" by the DLNA bridge.
I don't even know how this is done with your setup. Please test with Qobuz directly.
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I would like to try the new firmware 4.6.520554 to see if it fixes the issues with Qobuz playlists with different sample rates on my Stream-9.
Currently I do not use Airplay, so the loss of this function is no problem at the moment but that may change in the future. Therefore I would like to know if it is possible to revert back to firmware 4.6.439250.52 if Airplay is needed.
Please advise.
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Hello Cykomiko,
The instructions are on the Stream-9 product page under App & Firmware. Installation is easy and takes just a few minutes. Don't forget to power-cycle after the update utility shows that the firmware is installed correctly.
To rustydoglim the reason I use lms is because compared to lms playlist management on the Omnia App (like on any other App based streamer) is incredibly primitive.
As I said I would I have done tests streaming directly from Qobuz to the Stream-9 however the results are slightly worse compared to using lms.
Issue nr 2 (fix nr 1) is still present, there are still samples being dropped when the sample rate changes. As with lms this is repeatable and I will try to create a playlist that shows this issue and publish it.
Issue nr 3 (fix nr 2) is not completely fixed. I still sometimes get a crackling sound when streaming some 192kHz tracks. Unlike the other issue this is random and if a track exhibits this problem restarting it usually plays it without problem on the the second try. I have sofar encountered this crackling sound only when streaming directly. When using lms I have never encountered this crackling sound.
Test are ongoing.
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OK I have created a public playlist on Qobuz called Stream9-samplerate-test. This playlist contains 4 consequetive tracks from Pink Floyd's life album Pulse. These four tracks were choosen because they are reletively short. The first and third track are from a 24bit/192kHz version of the album while tracks 2 and 4 are 16bit/44.1kHz.
If I stream this playlist directly from Qobuz to the Stream-9 then there are gaps between the tracks. Samething when I use lms to stream this playlist and leave the samplerate as is. However when I re-sample everything to 24bit/192kHz then there NO gaps, the transitions are not all perfect probably because the tracks on both albums are not cut at exactly the same time but there are no gaps.
And Cykomiko I mis-read youre question. I do not have an answer to that.
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Issue nr 2.
With the addition of Qobuz tracks are no longer all 16bit/44.1kHz with higher rates from Qobuz. When the sample-rate changes sometimes there is a short fraction of the beginning of the track missing. This is not caused by the DAC (a DAC-9) because if I use SRC on the Stream-9 to send a constant sample-rate to the DAC-9 the problem remains. It is also not caused by lms or the DLNA bridge because if I send the same playlist using the same settings to another streamer (the builtin streamer of my Marantz AV Receiver) then there is no problem.
Hmmm, I experience the same, where my setup is a NuPrime Pi-9 streamer (*) running PiCorePlayer OS with both the LMS server and Squeezelite player/renderer on the same box. And my DAC is also DAC-9. The short fraction of the beginning of the track missing happens when the sample rate of the played music changes from the 44.1/88.2/176.4kHz to 48/96/192kHz and vice versa.
My hunch is that the issue is with the DAC as it needs to change the clock chip from the 44.1kHz multiplier to the 48kHz one, and that is where that sound gap happens.
You claim that it doesn't happen when you send your music from the LMS to your Marantz AV receiver - but in that case, you're not using the Stream-9 nor the DAC-9, correct? If so, then you can't really tell whether it was the Stream-9 or the DAC-9. I'm aiming at the DAC here (if you already 100% excluded the LMS as a cause of trouble).
What is your LMS server hardware-wise? Is there a chance you could run the Squeezelite player on the same box and run the USB connection to your DAC-9 and test what happens without the Stream-9 in the chain but with the DAC-9 in?
(*) the Nuprime's prototype streamer based on the Raspberry Pi that never went into production
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Hello zappan,
I have considered that it could be the DAC-9. I have eliminated that possibility by using SRC on the Stream-9 to send a constant samplerate to the DAC-9, in that situation the problem remains so it is really the Stream-9 causing the problem not the DAC-9. And yes when streaming to the AVR this does not involve the DAC-9 but it does involve all the same software using exactly the same settings.
The hardware for the lms server is a self build PC with a 4.1 GHz Pentium processor and 8 GB ram. It's cpu load is basically 0. I actually have Squeezelite running on that server but when I tried getting the DAC-9 connected to that via USB some time ago (before I had the Stream-9) I could never get that working. This is probably because I am running Freebsd and not Linux.
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Oh dear.
zappan's post made me re-examine the interaction between the Stream-9 and the DAC-9. On tests with the old firmware I thought I had eliminated the DAC-9 as the source of the missing start of some tracks after a samplerate change by using SRC on the Stream-9 to present a constant samplerate to the DAC-9, when that didn't eliminate the problem I concluded that the DAC-9 was not the source of the problem.
I had not used SRC during the tests of the new firmware yet so decided to do some tests using SRC.
The results of these test are awfull.
On the previous firmware the DAC-9 would flash the samplerate (384 or d5.6) just once, at the beginning of the playlist but never between tracks even if those tracks had a different samplerate. On the new firmware the DAC-9 flashes 384 between every track and the transitions now sound a lot worse than with SRC off.
So it seems the new firmware has (partially) broken SRC.
These tests were done using lms, I will repeat them streaming directly from Qobuz as soon as possible.
Practical consequence of this situation is that I can now no longer be certain if any problem with the transition between different samplerate is caused by the Stream-9 or the DAC-9. I have a Cambridge Audio DacMagic 100 and will include that in my testing.
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Unsurprisingly streaming the same playlist directly from Qobuz to the Stream-9 results in exactly the same results as streaming via lms.
For those interrested in testing yourself the playlist is published on Qobuz as : Stream9-samplerate-test2 (I have removed the previous one as it was not showing what I thought it was)
There are artefacts at every transition but because of the broken nature of the SRC I can now no longer determine what influence the DAC-9 has on the result.
SRC also behaves the same as while streaming via lms (flashing 384 at every transition and making the transition sound worse)
Next test will be changing the DAC-9 with the DacMagic 100.
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Unsurprisingly streaming the same playlist directly from Qobuz to the Stream-9 results in exactly the same results as streaming via lms.
<cut>
Next test will be changing the DAC-9 with the DacMagic 100.
Can you also stream Qobuz directly to the DAC-9?
(as a Qobuz app playing on your computer, sending audio via USB from a computer to the DAC-9)
That way you'd exclude the Stream-9 from the equation
While with Qobuz => Stream-9 => DacMagic you'd exclude the DAC-9.
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Can you also stream Qobuz directly to the DAC-9?
(as a Qobuz app playing on your computer, sending audio via USB from a computer to the DAC-9)
That way you'd exclude the Stream-9 from the equation
While with Qobuz => Stream-9 => DacMagic you'd exclude the DAC-9.
I had not considered this option. Thanks for suggesting it to me.
I had done some tests using my Bluray player as the streamer and the AVR as dac.
After the test done so far the combined results are
Group 1.
Perfect transitions between tracks of different samplerate
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> AVR
Qobuz ==> LMS(resample) ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Group 2.
Missing small fragments at transitions between tracks of different samplerate
Qobuz ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Bluray ==> AVR
Qobuz ==> PC ==> DAC-9
Group 3.
Missing large fragments at transitions between tracks of different samplerate
Qobuz ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DAC-9
There is no obvious difference between combinations within the same group.
It is possible that the Stream-9 doesn't cause the missing fragments but SRC should prevent them completely by presenting a constant samplerate to the DAC-9 but it is now making the problem worse.
In order to test with the DacMagic I am waiting for a cable which should be delivered tomorrow.
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I would like to try the new firmware 4.6.520554 to see if it fixes the issues with Qobuz playlists with different sample rates on my Stream-9.
Currently I do not use Airplay, so the loss of this function is no problem at the moment but that may change in the future. Therefore I would like to know if it is possible to revert back to firmware 4.6.439250.52 if Airplay is needed.
Please advise.
It can revert back if you manually update the firmware (we will provide the firmware file).
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Group 2.
Missing small fragments at transitions between tracks of different samplerate
Qobuz ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Bluray ==> AVR
Qobuz ==> PC ==> DAC-9
So in this group, whether Stream-9 is used or not, the problem of "Missing small fragments at transitions between tracks of different sample rate" is there?
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So in this group, whether Stream-9 is used or not, the problem of "Missing small fragments at transitions between tracks of different sample rate" is there?
Yes. So at least part of the problem is caused by the dac. (both the DAC-9 and the dac in the AVR when used by an external device)
But at the moment I am more concerned by group 3. As SRC did not cause this on the old firmware.
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Yes. So at least part of the problem is caused by the dac. (both the DAC-9 and the dac in the AVR when used by an external device)
I confirmed with R&D that when changing the source sampling rate, our DAC has to detect the change, and during the transition, there could be pop noise so a small part of the music during the transition is muted. Apparently, the dac in your AVR also uses the same design to prevent pop noise.
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The cable arrived so I could perform the tests using the DacMagic. There were no surprises, with SRC off or on streaming via lms or direct from Qobuz it behaved just like the DAC-9.
So here are the final results :
Group 1.
Perfect transitions between tracks of different samplerate
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> AVR
Qobuz ==> LMS(resample) ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS(resample) ==> Stream-9 ==> DacMagic
Qobuz ==> LMS(resample) ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS(resample) ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DacMagic
Group 2.
Missing small fragments at transitions between tracks of different samplerate
Qobuz ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> Stream-9 ==> DacMagic
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9 ==> DacMagic
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Bluray ==> AVR
Qobuz ==> PC ==> DAC-9
Group 3.
Missing large fragments at transitions between tracks of different samplerate
Qobuz ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DacMagic
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DacMagic
So the conclusion is that zappan was right and that with SRC off on the Stream-9 any missing fragments are caused by the DAC.
Much obliged to you Sir.
What the issue is with SRC on is clearly beyond my knowledge and testing capability, I have a theory about it but can not possibly confirm that.
My theory is that after a samplerate change with SRC on the Stream-9 sends a few samples to the dac with a different samplerate then the one SRC is set at forcing the DAC-9 to re-lock. If it succeeds is unknown, maybe the samples are just garbage. The Stream-9 then starts sending samples at the rate SRC is set at forcing the DAC-9 to once again re-lock this time succeeding and flashing the SRC rate on it's display.
So version 4.6.520554.52 seems to indeed have fixed the issue with missing fragments after a samplerate change and any missing fragments experienced now are caused by the dac.
The clicks and pops when streaming 192kHz (fix 2) seems to be nearly fixed. While 192kHz streams fine 99% of the time now there still is the occasional click or pop so it still seems to push the Stream-9 to the edge of it's performance limit sometimes pushing it over.
The issue I mentioned in an earlier about an issue when the first track of a playlist is 192kHz or when skipping to a 192kHz track is definitely a lms issue. It sounds like a buffer is not filled quickly enough in these situations causing a few dropouts during the first 2 to 3 seconds of a track. I can easily produce this when using lms but not when streaming directly from Qobuz so this is not an issue with the Stream-9.
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Thanks for the tests.
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It can revert back if you manually update the firmware (we will provide the firmware file).
How will firmware 4.6.439250.52 be provided? Do I have to request it individually from your support team or will it be uploaded to the Stream-9 product page?
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I will arrange for it to appear on the product page, since it is Friday in Taiwan, it might be until next week. I will post my follow up here.
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Just got me a Stream-9 and am very happy with how it performs. Got a couple questions:
1. How does one perform a firmware update? Does it need the LAN connection for this?
2. What is the remote (universal) code for this.....in case I want to deploy a universal remote?
3. I am unable to get the optional input to work with an old TV I have. One issue is that the TOSLink connection on the cable I have seems loose. Would anyone have suggestions on a basic optical cable that would work well.....and that someone has tried with the Stream-9, so they know the fit is snug/secure? I am learning that all optical cables are not created the same, and that a cable that works well on one piece of equipment doesn't fit securely on another.
Thanks in advance for your help, Dave
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1. How does one perform a firmware update? Does it need the LAN connection for this?
2. What is the remote (universal) code for this.....in case I want to deploy a universal remote?
If you don't have the problem described here, don't update. If you must update, follow the instruction on the App & Firmware tab on the product page.
I will find out about the remote code.
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If you don't have the problem described here, don't update. If you must update, follow the instruction on the App & Firmware tab on the product page.
I will find out about the remote code.
Understood -- I won't upgrade. :D
Thanks for looking for the universal remote code for me. Much appreciated.
-dGB
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Eventually, when we have our next generation Stream-9X, we will work out a way for existing customers to upgrade with minimal cost (most likely by swapping out the main board). Dealers won't be happy about this upgrade, but sometimes we will make an exception. Stream-9 sound is perfect, but the streaming service support is not the best (it doesn't have Roon Ready or Chromecast).
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Eventually, when we have our next generation Stream-9X, we will work out a way for existing customers to upgrade with minimal cost (most likely by swapping out the main board). Dealers won't be happy about this upgrade, but sometimes we will make an exception. Stream-9 sound is perfect, but the streaming service support is not the best (it doesn't have Roon Ready or Chromecast).
Oooooh, sounds great. Any general ETA for this update?
As an aside, thanks for doing something like this as it is very customer-friendly. I wish more manufacturers did something like this. I know some do, but not many.
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Eventually, when we have our next generation Stream-9X, we will work out a way for existing customers to upgrade with minimal cost (most likely by swapping out the main board). Dealers won't be happy about this upgrade, but sometimes we will make an exception. Stream-9 sound is perfect, but the streaming service support is not the best (it doesn't have Roon Ready or Chromecast).
Great news! I hope Nuprime would upgrade the transformer as an option, too. Frankly, the current is not good enough. I'm looking forward to this upgrade & hopefully, it won't cost a leg & arm.
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3. I am unable to get the optional input to work with an old TV I have. One issue is that the TOSLink connection on the cable I have seems loose. Would anyone have suggestions on a basic optical cable that would work well.....and that someone has tried with the Stream-9, so they know the fit is snug/secure? I am learning that all optical cables are not created the same, and that a cable that works well on one piece of equipment doesn't fit securely on another.
Just following up on this question: do any Stream-9 users have suggestions on TOSlink (optical) cables that form a tight connection with the Stream-9 and "work" with the streamer? So far I have tried the two cables I have, and neither have worked with my old TV. Neither has a decent connection to the Stream-9. I know there's a lot of variability with TOSlink cables, I am hoping users can suggest workable options for me. I'd prefer not to "give up" on hooking up this older TV to the Stream-9 if a change of cable would solve this issue.
Thanks, -dGB
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You must have a DAC connected to Stream-9. Can you connect the optical cable from the TV to your DAC directly?
Either Stream-9 can not lock to the optical signal from TV, or TV's signal is just too noisy for any DAC.
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You must have a DAC connected to Stream-9. Can you connect the optical cable from the TV to your DAC directly?
Either Stream-9 can not lock to the optical signal from TV, or TV's signal is just too noisy for any DAC.
Yes, I have the Stream-9 connected to an outboard DAC. And yes, I cannot get a signal through to the DAC. I have a cheapo DAC that can lock on to the signal when I connect to it directly, so I know it is possible. The issue right now seems to be that the cable I have sits loosely in the Stream-9 connector. I'm betting right now that is the problem. That's why I am soliciting suggestions on a TOSlink cable that "works well" with the Stream-9.
I had a super-cheap optical cable. That connected fine to the TV, but not to any DAC I had. Finally bought a somewhat better optical cable, and that one connects to a cheapo DAC and works just fine with that DAC -- no problems from TV -> DAC. This same cable, however, sits loosely in the Stream-9 optical connection, so my working theory is that the connection is too loose to sync the signal. I bet if I can find an optical cable that connects securely to the Stream-9, I can probably get the TV to sync with the Stream-9.
The main optical cable has a slightly block-y connector. I think that prevents the optical connection from seating deep enough into the Stream-9 optical opening, therefore it sits loose. Guessing at this point I need an optical cable with a very slim connector in order to insert deeper into the streamer. Since I know the TV can sync to a DAC -- and works -- and I know this cable works, I think finding a cable that attaches securely to the Stream-9 will solve my issue. I don't think the TV is at fault here, even though it is an old TV.
Stream-9 users: what optical cables do you use (successfully)? Thanks in advance.
-dGB
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Eventually, when we have our next generation Stream-9X, we will work out a way for existing customers to upgrade with minimal cost (most likely by swapping out the main board). Dealers won't be happy about this upgrade, but sometimes we will make an exception. Stream-9 sound is perfect, but the streaming service support is not the best (it doesn't have Roon Ready or Chromecast).
Hang on a minute. Does this mean that the Stream-9 as it is now is basically obsolete? The fact that some of it's functionality had to be removed to make it (just barely) meet it's performance spec already pointed in this direction. The willingness to support current customers is appreciated (subject to the actual cost). I agree about the sound, I really like that and as I have a working situation I am not complaining. Never the less having a product going obsolete in such a short time does not feel good.
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I will arrange for it to appear on the product page, since it is Friday in Taiwan, it might be until next week. I will post my follow up here.
Could you please let us know when the firmware is expected to appear on the product page?
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Hang on a minute. Does this mean that the Stream-9 as it is now is basically obsolete? The fact that some of it's functionality had to be removed to make it (just barely) meet it's performance spec already pointed in this direction. The willingness to support current customers is appreciated (subject to the actual cost). I agree about the sound, I really like that and as I have a working situation I am not complaining. Never the less having a product going obsolete in such a short time does not feel good.
No.
But of course, we don't "sit around and do nothing" with our development. Your thousand-dollar phone comes out with a new model every year. Car companies also come up with new car models every other year.
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In reverse order :
Car companies also come up with new car models every other year.
They really don't, the "New 2023 Toyota Corolla" seems to be a mostly North American thing. Here in Europe models seems to last for a lot longer than one or two years.
But in the more than forty years I have been driving there have been many new roads opened and existing roads have changed and never have I needed the car I was driving at the time to be "updated" to drive on that new road. (basically car analogies are stupid)
Your thousand-dollar phone comes out with a new model every year.
I don't have a "thousand-dollar phone", mostly because I understand that a phone for various reasons has a limited useful life. My current phone cost 350 Euro five years ago and as long as it will run the apps I need it to run with an acceptable performance and battery life I will continue to use it.
But of course, we don't "sit around and do nothing" with our development.
Good, I would hope so.
I have a DAC-9 (which I really like) and the release of first the DAC-9SE and then the DAC-9X did not make that DAC-9 obsolete as it continues to this day to perform to the specs it was designed to.
No.
Again good.
However there is a fundamental difference between something like a DAC-9 and a STREAM-9. The DAC-9 remains useful long after the manufacturer stops supporting it. The STREAM-9 is on borrowed time as soon as the firmware that makes it function is no longer maintained. If one of the streaming services it supports changes its API(changes the road) that service is no longer available unless the firmware is updated. Same for new services(new road).
It has not escaped my notice that the product page for the STREAM-9 used to mention two streaming services that were "in development", that has now been removed from that page so I guess those services will now never be supported by the current STREAM-9. And then there is the fact that that the STREAM-9 never perfomed to spec. According to the specs it is supposed to support DLNA and streaming upto 192Khz / 24 bit. It has never been able to do that. The latest firmware only allows 192Khz / 24 bit while streaming direct from Qobuz and to enable it to do that a mayor feature (Airplay) had to be sacrificed. These things don't leave a good feeling.
Could you please let us know when the firmware is expected to appear on the product page?
I too would like to know this if only to do some test on how the latest firmware has changed SRC.
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However there is a fundamental difference between something like a DAC-9 and a STREAM-9. The DAC-9 remains useful long after the manufacturer stops supporting it. The STREAM-9 is on borrowed time as soon as the firmware that makes it function is no longer maintained. If one of the streaming services it supports changes its API(changes the road) that service is no longer available unless the firmware is updated. Same for new services(new road).
The thing you're pointing out here is absolutely spot on. That is why companies like Roon came into existence, if the RAAT protocol won't change, and there's no reason to, the Roon Ready equipment will be working for years. The downside is the price of the Roon ecosystem (unfortunately, they don't offer a "lite" version without the music discovery and all the additional bells and whistles part which [may] carry the extra value they base their price off of).
Then there are open solutions like the UPnP and DLNA, which are rather awful by the original design; with the OpenHome extensions, they became bearable, as there are manufacturers relying on that technology and it apparently works for the local streaming from your own music server; but still for services like Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify, etc. you need to get the firmware upgrades to match the changes in their APIs. Which may make the streaming products obsolete at some point in time (unlike the DAC)
And there's also Logitech Media Server (LMS) which went from Logitech's hands into the open source realm, and there are people actively developing and maintaining that ecosytem, updating the plugins to match the changes in the streaming services. There is one HiFi manufacturer I know who based their streaming system on the LMS, plus the DIY community with Raspberry Pi and similar SBC boards.
And, finally, there are a few other attempts which didn't get much traction (DTS Play-Fi for example, Plex server tried to do something but didn't get much traction in HiFi, BluOS onboarded a few partners only...).
Overall, it's too bad that there is no, ideally open, server platform with a standard+open protocol, supported by the manufacturers to make sure it develops and keeps up to date with the streaming services. Imagine Roon being free as a "lite" version (which wouldn't even need such beefy hardware it requires today, the "lite" could run on a NAS or a RPi or a streaming-server equipment directly), or LMS being supported in that manner, or more manufacturers licensing the BluOS. Let's hope we'd get there at some point, that'd make the streamers life longevity comparable with the DACs
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Exactly and agreed. Imagine for us manufacturers who have invested hundreds of thousands in a platform "SomethingPlay", "SomethingFi" from Qualcomm AllPlay, LinkPlay, MQA, DTS, ..... and then the platform vendors decided to shut it down (Qualcomm AllPlay) or not support it anymore. Very painful and costly.
So a responsible and customer-caring brand like Nuprime, can decide in the worst case (when the streaming platform becomes obsolete), and offer a good deal for an upgrade (in most cases dealers don't make any profit from the upgrade).
If you don't need Roon or Chromecast, then there is no need to upgrade to Stream-9X (only after mid-2024). The performance will be the same, except Stream-9X will cost more. But if in 2026, Qobuz decides to change the API (not likely, they haven't changed for years, but just maybe) and LinkPlay decides not to support Nuprime for the upgrade in 2026, what to do? We can decide to offer an upgrade board for existing customers at a "rock bottom price" to migrate to whatever new platform.
Streaming products are MONEY LOSING products for Nuprime. We never made any profit from streaming products. :duh: But we have to offer them as part of a system.
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Very clear description of the audio-streamer market and it's challenges.
I agree with everything you wrote.
From my personal position I have (more than once) considered Roon but there have always been 2 things preventing me from making the switch.
1. Roon does not in any meaningful way support Spotify. Now this is not Roon Labs fault, Spotify just does not allow it. (it only tolerates lms's Spotify integration)
2. I will not pay a monthly subscription for any not business related software. I have no problem making a one-off payment and paying for updates (as long as those updates actually include new features)
As for manufacturers using and supporting LMS I think I know which one you are refering to and I actually considered getting one of their players but the cheapest one not powered by a wall-wart (and I don't think serious HiFi equipment should be powered by a wall-wart) is twice the price of a Stream-9 with less features. I know of a second manufacturer including SqueezeLite in their firmware but their equipment is even more expensive.
Imagine for us manufacturers who have invested hundreds of thousands in a platform "SomethingPlay", "SomethingFi" from Qualcomm AllPlay, LinkPlay, MQA, DTS, ..... and then the platform vendors decided to shut it down (Qualcomm AllPlay) or not support it anymore. Very painful and costly.
I fully understand this.
The irony is that with the way I am using the Stream-9 I am not very reliant on firmware updates. As long as it supports DLNA properly I am fine. Any API update for a streaming service has to be handled by the writer/maintainer of the LMS plugin and does not rely on Nuprime.
The Stream-9 would be an excellent streamer for me if it only performed to specification. Unfortunately it does not. It will not stream any samplerate above 96Khz using DLNA without severe glitching and I don't think this can be solved by a firmware update. So that unfortunately leaves me with a streamer that is only partly usable.
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I've been a Roon user for some years now. Bought lifetime a couple of months in and haven't looked back. You can still buy a one time/life time Roon and avoid subscription, though it isn't cheap. I initially installed the core in my existing NAS and avoided any costs above the cost of Roon. Since, I invested in an Intel NUC dedicated to the Roon Core.
If I didn't already have an Auralic VEGA G2 streaming DAC, I would be seriously considering the upcoming NuPrime unit that will evidently be Roon ready.
......Pete
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The Stream-9 would be an excellent streamer for me if it only performed to specification. Unfortunately, it does not. It will not stream any sample rate above 96Khz using DLNA without severe glitching and I don't think this can be solved by a firmware update. So that unfortunately leaves me with a streamer that is only partly usable
I haven't heard of Stream-9-9 not being able to handle 192K for local network streaming, so your problem might be specific to Stream-9 and Qobuz 192K where you get occasional noise.
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I haven't heard of Stream-9-9 not being able to handle 192K for local network streaming, so your problem might be specific to Stream-9 and Qobuz 192K where you get occasional noise.
Rusty, I am just following up on the Stream-9 4-digit universal code. My universal remote just arrived today, so I am hoping to get the Stream-9 configured as soon as possible. Thanks in advance for getting back to me.
Best regards, -dGB (Dave)
9/20 UPDATE: I tried the auto-magic "find the code" feature on my universal remote -- it failed. The closest it found was a code where only some buttons work, and none of them work for the appropriate function. For example, "Mute" turns the unit on/off, and the "OK" button increases the volume. But the rest of the functions are unusable. Can't change inputs, can't lower volume, can't change sample rate. So essentially....it still doesn't work. More frustrating than useful at this point.
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Please email support@nuprimeaudio.com about the remote code. Our dedicated support staff will follow up until you get it. :thumb:
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I haven't heard of Stream-9-9 not being able to handle 192K for local network streaming
Well you have heard of me.
I was going to post details of all the tests I have performed but decided that was going to be a very long and very boring post so I won't do that, I am just going to post the final result.
That result is that unfortunately I was not able to stream 24 bit 192 KHz reliably to the Stream-9 when used as a DLNA renderer.
The best I could get was streaming FLAC at 24 bit 192 KHz in gapless mode. During the final 5 hour test session there was only 1 glitch, at around 3 hours when there was a half a second pause. When disrupting the flow of the playlist by skipping ahead there are lots of clicks during the first 15 seconds of the track skipped to.
When streamin WAV there are half a second pauses several times an hour and the clicks after skipping take a lot longer to disappear.
When streaming in non gapless mode there are clicks at the beginning (FLAC) or during most (WAV) of each track.
1 glitch in 5 hours is just not good enough, there should be none.
When I first encountered the half a second pause over two weeks ago while streaming a local album at 32 bit 88.2 KHz I got a new (much cheaper) streamer to compare with and that streamer has performed flawlessly during every test I performed over the last 2 weeks.
When comparing the sound quality the new streamer using it's internal DAC sounds excellent but just a touch cooler than the Stream-9 DAC-9 combination. Also using the internal DAC (ESS-Sabre) there are no problems with sample-rate changes, no missing fragments.
When used with the DAC-9 the new streamer sounds exactly the same as the Stream-9 (and has the same problems with sample-rate changes)
So where does this leave the Stream-9 in my situation?
As I already have it I may just aswell use it so when playing 1 or more complete albums from my local library at 44.1 KHz I use the Stream-9. For uses involving sample-rates other then 44.1 KHz I use the new streamer either using the internal DAC or the DAC-9.
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Could you please let us know when the firmware is expected to appear on the product page?
Sorry to be such a pain in the a** but firmware 4.6.439250.52 is still not appearing on the product page.
It wasn't provided by your support either although I did ask for it multiple times.
Could you please take care of this issue?
Many thanks!
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It is there now: https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/stream-9/
You only need the "439250" firmware, not the "439250.52"
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Much appreciated, many thanks! :D
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I've just bought NuPrime Stream 9. I am very satisfied with it. It works normally over WiFi and the sound is perfect. But I prefered ethernet connection and there is a problem. I simply can't establish it. I tried change a LAN cable, a factory reset, disabling WiFi and then setup again but nothing. I get a note on display UNSUPPORTED. Maybe the problem is in my router/modem, but other devices connected to it work well. I tried connect Stream 9 to every of four LAN outputs of my router/modem and nothing happened. Any suggestions?