[brother love]

... My question is since i am not mechanically inclined i am afraid to change speaker pinding posts , rca's...etc.   I at least want to try a battery supply. Can someone point me in the right direction as to which one to purchase and how to connect it ? i dont want to blow up the amp. Its a keeper.  BTW..speakers are 93 db  8 ohm.    thx.

Greetings sugbob21.  Congrats on the MG3 purchase.   

It might be good to talk about MG3 mods in this link that Freo-1 created:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110713.0  & keep MG3 MKII tour info & impressions on message.

I'll post some info concerning your mod questions on the referenced thread & maybe some others can chime in as well.

[Mister Pig]

Spent a couple of evenings giving this amp a serious listen to, after logging around a 100 hours on it.

The amp just gets better with more time, and sounds great in either AC or battery mode. Well I still find that the amp is at its best with battery power, but the gap with AC is smaller than ever before, and I can see certain system configurations where it would be preferred. But the performance on 12 volt is just awesome.

Perhaps the most interesting point to me is how the sound expands into the room with this version of the amp. Previous generation sounded smooth and refined, but always felt a bit small in scale. Now the amp does things similar to what my SET amp does.

Yes micro level detail is excellent, and it never gets etched or out of balance tonally. It is a bit more forward than my SET, and it does not quite have the sublime texture in the mids that the 300B tubes do, but it is very very close.

Without a doubt, this version is a significant improvement.

Regards
Mister Pig

[Mister Pig]

Thought I would tack this post onto this thread. I wrote it for another forum, but its a bit more in depth than what I previously wrote.

The TBI Millenia is an interesting Class D amplifier that resides in a no man's land, where it is more expensive than the T chip amps and other $100 wonders. Yet with a $500 price tag, it is not expensive enough to be take seriously by the average audiophile. But that is a mistake.

I have had all three versions of this amplifier, as it has gone through the V1, then 1.1, and now V2. Class D is inherently different than a traditional amplifier, and until now has had a very distinctive signature in my opinion, well at this price point at least. This version of the amp has seen the designer implementing a new type of coupling capacitor, Polyphenylene-Sulphide. The compact board size of the Millenia does not allow for the use of traditional boutique type capacitors for their size is too large, and there are some electrical properties that are supposedly less than desirable.

While I know next to nothing about PPS capacitor technology, I do know what I hear in terms of sound difference. Especially since I also have a V1.1 amp to make direct comparisons to. While the previous amp was very nice sounding, and was refined and smooth, it tended to sound a bit closed in. My Electra Print amplifiers did low level detail better, and the sound expanded to fill the room with that desirable layering to the music.This latest version of the Millenia now has this kind of presentation, with a lack of grain or odd tonal anomalies that artificially create the illusion of heightened presence region. The tonal balance is slightly lighter in the lower midrange than my SET, and if i were to nit pick it is not quite as polished and smooth, but it is so darn close its not funny. Remember we are talking about a $500 integrated versus a amp/pre combo that costs $6K and has a $800 pair of Sophia Carbon Princess output tubes.

Now the amplifier is capable of 32 wpc with the AC switching power supply, or 10 wpc with a 12 volt DC supply. I find the battery supply offers the highest resolution in terms of sound quality, although as the amp has progressed the AC supply has closed the gap in terms of SQ. I could see in certain situations where the AC supply would be preferable. Now if you were to pair up two SLA 12 volt batteries,, you can get 32 wpc on battery power. What I wonder what would happen if you were to source a linear AC power supply for the amp, and it may be possible to get even closer to the battery performance without the complexity. But since I have high efficiency speakers the 10 wpc is plenty of power. So I can run $50 automotive jump pack, that gives me a battery and charger in a self contained unit.

So for that aspiring audiophile with limited means, this amplifier is a fantastic way to build a system. Yes its limited on inputs, and hooking up a subwoofer is a PITA. But the sound quality is remarkable for its price. Just pair it with the right type of speakers, and you can have a wonderful system for a very reasonable outlay of cash.

Regards
Mister Pig

[roscoeiii]

How is the bass and treble on these amps?

[genjamon]

Thanks Mister Pig. 

I'm looking forward to playing with it in comparison with my TRL Dude/Ncore 400 pre/amp combo with Tekton Lore speakers.  I'll try it on its own as well as keeping the Dude pre in front of it. I think I'm fourth in line on the tour.

[roscoeiii]

Thanks Mister Pig. 

I'm looking forward to playing with it in comparison with my TRL Dude/Ncore 400 pre/amp combo with Tekton Lore speakers.  I'll try it on its own as well as keeping the Dude pre in front of it. I think I'm fourth in line on the tour.

That will be quite an interesting comparison.

[OzarkTom]

Just in case anyone missed it, here is Danny Ritchie's review of the TBI MKII.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110713.new;topicseen#new

I first met Danny at the LSAF in 2010 and found out that he was very, very critical on his listening.

[brother love]

Just in case anyone missed it, here is Danny Ritchie's review of the TBI MKII. ... I first met Danny at the LSAF in 2010 and found out that he was very, very critical on his listening.

Saying Danny has good ears may be the mother of all understatements (more like "golden ears").     I have owned 3 different pairs of speakers that Danny has designed (still own 2 of the 3), & really respect his opinion. 

I believe those custom Dodd Audio mono amps Danny compared with the TBI MG3 MKII are those beautiful blue babies that went for something like $7,000 a pair as I recall.  So that is very impressive if the MG3 MKII held its own.

[brother love]

Excellent review Mister Pig. 

... This version of the amp has seen the designer implementing a new type of coupling capacitor, Polyphenylene-Sulphide. The compact board size of the Millenia does not allow for the use of traditional boutique type capacitors for their size is too large, and there are some electrical properties that are supposedly less than desirable.

After I got this latest V2 / MKII mod (or whatever it's called), I peeked inside.  I was expecting to see new large capacitors dangling off the board w/ short wires (typical w/ othe cap upgrades I've had done in the past).  When I didn't see 'em, I contacted the modder expressing concerns & was set straight on the new caps.    Regardless of looks, size, etc. ... these new caps take a great little amp & make it greater.

[genjamon]

Any updates from the tour?

[OzarkTom]

Any updates from the tour?

srclose said he was shipping the amp to you this week. 

[genjamon]

Well, it showed up yesterday!  Got some listening in last night, but will hold my full comments until I've had more time with it.  But first impressions are it sounds pretty darned good!  Definitely a very good value/dollar proposition. 

[genjamon]

Ok, I've had a number of more hours to listen and don't think I'll have much more to say by the time it leaves.

I was played with it on its own, as well as driven by my TRL Dude pre. So, I was able to compare directly to my Ncore 400 DIY amps as well. 

Speakers are stock Tekton Lores, db audio Tranquility SE DAC run by a 2010 Mac Mini using Audirvana. And I have substituted a 5V linear power supply wall wart for the 5v USB bus voltage from Mac Mini to the DAC.  I also run speaker level outputs to a pair of subs in parallel with the output to the speakers. Just so others know that speaker level output to run subs works on this TBI amp. Enough of that stuff, and on to my impressions.

I have a whole playlist of my favorite stuff for critical listening. Stuff I'm very familiar with and which is mostly pretty well recorded, although in rock, indie, and non-audiophile music in general.  Sampling of artists includes Paul Simon You're the One, Bonnie Prince Billie, King Creosote and Jon Hopkins, Fiona Apple, Ani Difranco, Soul Coughing, Ween Live at Chicago, Andrew Bird, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Dire Straits,David Byrne, Ray Lamontagne,.... You get the picture.

I'd say the TBI's biggest strength is its midrange, and it's really great.  It's very rich in tone and weight, very clean and clear, and totally engaging. Vocals especially have a focus that I don't have with my current rig. Not light years better, but better. Other sounds and instruments with an emphasis in the midrange were similarly present and stood out from the rest of the musical soundscape. Electric guitars, hand drum percussion, and vocals are where this quality stood out.

Now for the downsides. The bass wasn't nearly as controlled or articulate as the Ncore. Neither were the highs as refined as the Ncore. But the midrange did have more body and weight, and there was slightly more lower midrange. Ncore was more "breathy" with vocals, but not as weighty. In the highs, Ncore had more decay and spaciousness.  Soundstage wise, I found width pretty similar, surprisingly, but Ncore provided much greater depth of soundstage. It was more 3 dimensional. Finally, as you might imagine, the Ncore never lost composure when I turned up the volume. The TBI acquitted itself very well, but it did start to run out of gas, as one would expect from 10 watts vs. 200. I would be curious to double up on batteries to try it with more wattage output.

I found the Dude to add a significant amount of nuance and dimensionality over running the TBI on its own. It did lose some of the focus that the TBI has on its own, but I felt the music was more alive, had more drive and more realistic instrumental expression with the tube pre in front.

To sum it up, I found the TBI a really excellent performer. When I first plugged it in, I was worried. It sounded really good and I was concerned my higher priced gear might be upended. As I listened closer, I found the clarity and easy delineation of instruments with the TBI cam with a price. Less instrumental nuances, less soundstage depth, less drive and sense that the instruments and performers are in the room with you. To put it another way, with the TBI I felt like I was listening to a really enjoyable depiction of the music. With my other gear, the experiential space between listener and performance was blurred and I felt more like I was part of the performance, really there, and so forth.

But the TBI does have a magic to its midrange that is undeniable and is better than the Ncore for my preferences.

I suspect the Ncore comparison is what many might be most interested in. So, did the TBI beat the Ncore for me in my system? Not really overall, but in some ways definitely. Is it worth going 4x the cost of the TBI for the NCore? That's probably up to the rest of your system. If you have medium efficiency speakers, I expect the Ncore's additional power capability would be important if you listen at anything more than low volumes. I mean, 20 times the power is worth something, yes? And if you already have grat midrange with your other components and really want the best bass control and really good highs too, Ncore would be better. But if a beguiling midrange is the most important thing for you and you're willing to sacrifice a bit of bass delineation and control and high frequency subtlety, decay, and so forth, go with the TBI.

That said, could I live with the TBI on its own? Absolutely yes. It's a stunning performer at its price point. If I had tried this unit a year ago, Probably never would have tried the Ncore or the Dude and would have saved myself a boatload of cash. It definitely brings into question just how much extra pleasure I get out of the extra performance I have with my current system, and how much money that's worth to me. I could also see myself buying a TBI just to have and swap in from time to time for some variety and as a benchmark in the midrange against other high priced amps I might try in the future against the Ncore.

And for those looking into building a first system, I think a TBI and Tekton Lore combo would be an amazing first system that might end your search right there if you don't want to sink $thousands in your system.

Ok, I'm done. Many thanks to Tom for organizing the tour.

[OzarkTom]

Thank you genjamon for your honest and detailed report. It is hard to give up the aliveness of the TBI. I know four other AC'ers that prefers the sound of the TBI on their systems compared to the Ncore 400's.

I did get a report back from one AC'er about using two TBI's as monos. He us using now using them on a single large 12v battery, and he thinks we are nuts for not trying the TBI that way. He says everyting is imroved, bass, depth, detail, and aliveness. I guess I had better get a second one on order for me.

[roscoeiii]

I'd say the TBI's biggest strength is its midrange, and it's really great.  It's very rich in tone and weight, very clean and clear, and totally engaging. Vocals especially have a focus that I don't have with my current rig. Not light years better, but better. Other sounds and instruments with an emphasis in the midrange were similarly present and stood out from the rest of the musical soundscape. Electric guitars, hand drum percussion, and vocals are where this quality stood out.

Now for the downsides. The bass wasn't nearly as controlled or articulate as the Ncore. Neither were the highs as refined as the Ncore. But the midrange did have more body and weight, and there was slightly more lower midrange. Ncore was more "breathy" with vocals, but not as weighty. In the highs, Ncore had more decay and spaciousness.  Soundstage wise, I found width pretty similar, surprisingly, but Ncore provided much greater depth of soundstage. It was more 3 dimensional.

Reminds me of the impressions that jackman and I had of the ncores that jtwrace had when they were on tour. Jackman's coda had more meat on the bones than the ncore, while the ncore was much more detailed and a better all around performer in the bass and highs.

Looking forward to hearing the new TBI. My upgraded Super Magnum Rogue Stereo 90 returns today, so we will have another excellent point of comparison.

[chrmzn]

Hi,

This is my first post on audio circle which makes me discover the MG3. I purchased it recently and I'm pretty satisfied with the amp considering the price paid.
I got Acoustic Research HO 112 speaker, 97db ! and I also have a 300b Yaqin Amp and a Mhdt Paradisea Dac.

I would not say that the MG3 can beat my MS 500b from Yaqin which cost 1800 Euros but the sound is very nice, not agressive, with good medium et maybe better highs than the tube amp.
I dont hear no unexpected noise on my very sensitive speaker (no backnoise)

Now, I would like to improve the sound of this MG3.
I dont' want to have a battery in my living room because of the kids. Or only a SLA Battery from Kingrex cause there is no danger for the kid.
What about using a PSU with this amp ? Does someone have tried a PSU with the MG3 ?
Do you have any idea of a battery that is very safe and can be used with young kids ?

Thanks for your answer and sorry about my english that comes from France !

Julien

[genjamon]

Roscoeiii, I need to go back and read jackman's comments again, but I vaguely remember them. Could be a similar impression for me.

Ozarktom, do you know what specific characteristics they all liked better in the TBI compared with Ncore? Some description of characteristics is more helpful than just saying they're "better". I have found individual tastes and system synergies can swing rather wildly in this hobby.

Finally, I omitted my power conditioning in my system description. Since that was a key factor in Danny's comments about the TBI vs. the last digital amps he had (and I know he had Ncore recently and talked a lot about playing a bunch with power conditioning and cables before he got the most out of them in his review of them). I run a PI audio Uberbuss into a PI BussStop into the wall. Mixture of Pangea and Signal Cable power cables.

[roscoeiii]

Roscoeiii, I need to go back and read jackman's comments again, but I vaguely remember them. Could be a similar impression for me.

Link to jackman's comments:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108385.msg1120677#msg1120677

BTW, he now runs ncores on his killer Bromberg speakers.

My ncore impressions:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1106866#msg1106866

Sorry if this is getting OT, but I found the similarities to what jackman and I heard on the ncore tour were interesting.

Looking forward to the TBI. And I am procrastinating on AC while I wait for my recently returned Rogue Stereo 90 Super Magnum to warm up, so I can bias those KT120 output tubes. You can bet you will be reading a comparison of it to the TBI. Thanks to OzarkTom for tweaking the tour so I could get the TBI when I had my Rogue back!

[OzarkTom]

Roscoeiii, I need to go back and read jackman's comments again, but I vaguely remember them. Could be a similar impression for me.

Ozarktom, do you know what specific characteristics they all liked better in the TBI compared with Ncore? Some description of characteristics is more helpful than just saying they're "better". I have found individual tastes and system synergies can swing rather wildly in this hobby.

Finally, I omitted my power conditioning in my system description. Since that was a key factor in Danny's comments about the TBI vs. the last digital amps he had (and I know he had Ncore recently and talked a lot about playing a bunch with power conditioning and cables before he got the most out of them in his review of them). I run a PI audio Uberbuss into a PI BussStop into the wall. Mixture of Pangea and Signal Cable power cables.

The feedback that have been getting is that the TBI gives them more soul than the Ncores do, more SET-like sound. One emailed me today and said of all the SET amps that he has owned, the TBI is more detailed while being as soulful as SET on his open backed DIY speakers.

He said a neighbor of his brought over a pair of 65 pound Ncore 1200's that he had bought for $9K and could not believe how the TBI sounded in comparison.

[Rclark]

I disagree. I didn't find the TBI "better" by any stretch. Interesting is Genjamon's comments

"The bass wasn't nearly as controlled or articulate as the Ncore. Neither were the highs as refined as the Ncore. Ncore was more "breathy" with vocals, but not as weighty. In the highs, Ncore had more decay and spaciousness.  Soundstage wise, I found width pretty similar, surprisingly, but Ncore provided much greater depth of soundstage. It was more 3 dimensional. "

was similar to my experience as well. and also:

"And if you already have grat midrange with your other components and really want the best bass control and really good highs too, Ncore would be better"

- that if you have a system that already has a solid midrange, such as those with planar speakers, then the Ncores are a better match, because you don't need midrange emphasised. Probably why I enjoyed Ncores versus TBI by a large margin.

The TBI was a nice sounding amp though, but was clearly voiced to have a sweet sounding coloration. I rated it highly in a few areas, but it's no Ncore.