AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: jsalk on 24 Mar 2021, 08:36 pm
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One of the things that I enjoy most these days is playing with all kinds of new drivers.
Take this one:
(https://salksound.com/gallery/AirBlade/AirBlade-cu.jpg)
I had talked to the guys at Arya Audio Labs a few years back when they were working on a new tweeter concept. Time went buy when I ran into them again at an audio show. This time around they were showing their new AirBlade tweeter prototype. It is an AMT tweeter, but as you can probably see by the design, the on-axis response is about 140 degrees. It has perfectly flat impedance and Arya rated it as capable of performing flat down to 1kHz. Very interesting.
A few months later, I learned they were finally in production and emailed to make sure I could get an early pair. I now have #'s 24 and 25 off the assembly line in my possession.
Like any early adopter, there were some issues Arya was still working on. Specifically, the tweeter could handle audio down to 1kH, but the frequency response was down quite a bit compared to the output at 2kHz...so much so that if we were to develop a passive design with it, we would have to use it at 2kHz and above. Of course, we already had a couple of very good tweeter options that cross at 2kHz or slightly lower and cost considerably less. But since we had purchased them, we felt the need to do something with them.
We realized that if we did an active design, we could easily correct the frequency response, so that is what we decided to do. The only question was what woofers to use them with.
Purifi woofers seem to be the hottest new midwoofer design on the market. So we ordered four of those and a couple of dual channel plate amps with DSP we could use to generate a crossover.
Now we had a ton of money invested in parts. So it was time to make some sawdust...
(https://salksound.com/gallery/AirBlade/AirBlade-candy.jpg)
The first thing I noticed was that I didn't have to do anything special with the Purifi woofers. They were flat to begin with. So creating an active crossover for these was not difficult at all.
How do they sound? In a word, GREAT! The problem is, the resulting speakers would be VERY expensive and our customers don't seem all that enthused about active speakers. So it is unlikely that we will ever offer them as a regular product on our web site.
But it was an interesting project and I now have a one-of-a-kind speaker to add to my personal collection. That's my idea of fun.
- Jim
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Finally something to satisfy the customer who says "I'd like a speaker that sounds great and that looks like it could bite you, please."
That's certainly like nothing I've ever seen before. Very interesting.
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Is your accountant having fun too? I worked up a passive version of this because I wanted to hear the general sound even if the higher crossover point and lower sensitivity pretty much ruled them out as a commercial product. The tweeter needs some work, although it's perfectly fine for an active application. What impressed me was the impact and clarity of the dual Purifi woofers. Others have had trouble making these work, but the ported version Jim designed for the prototype I was working on is great--no port noise and lots of detail, with solid extension down to 32 Hz. It would make a remarkable conventional passive speaker with a different tweeter. ......
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That tweeter would look perfect in an omnidirectional out of this world speaker design
(https://www.denofgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/lost-in-space-robot.jpg?resize=768%2C432)
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Jim, how does it sound compared to your other designs? Is the listening experience similar to one of your other models, or does it stand alone?
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I'm sorry but... :lol:
(http://videsaur.com/thumb/vkdbbNcdh4r2Xc3zG0CREq5mfQhPu1.jpg)
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Sorry, it really does look like a speaker from an audio nightmare. It comes to life and turns into an Alien.
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Looks pretty cool to me. Great concept, too. Tweeter of the future.
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Why does the right speaker have a small black square under the lower woofer?
That is one wild looking driver for sure.
JCarney
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Is your accountant having fun too? I worked up a passive version of this because I wanted to hear the general sound even if the higher crossover point and lower sensitivity pretty much ruled them out as a commercial product. The tweeter needs some work, although it's perfectly fine for an active application. What impressed me was the impact and clarity of the dual Purifi woofers. Others have had trouble making these work, but the ported version Jim designed for the prototype I was working on is great--no port noise and lots of detail, with solid extension down to 32 Hz. It would make a remarkable conventional passive speaker with a different tweeter. ......
Stay tuned...
- Jim
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Jim, how does it sound compared to your other designs? Is the listening experience similar to one of your other models, or does it stand alone?
I had a very critical friend come over to listen. He loved the sound, but commented that, considering the cost, he would rather opt for a pair of SS9.5's and use the savings to purchase a good amp. I couldn't argue with that logic.
They do sound wonderful. There are two areas where they may have an edge over some existing higher-end designs. When you walk around the room (listen off axis), the tweeter levels are consistent. The tweeter level does not fall off like most other tweeters do, even at extreme off axis positions. The other thing I noticed is that the distortion levels are extremely low. This is more due to the Purifi woofers. You have to exercise some restraint with the volume control as you do not get as much in the way of distortion cues to let you know you are playing them too loud.
We were so impressed with the woofers that I am certain we will be introducing a new model using them along with a beryllium tweeter.
- Jim
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Why does the right speaker have a small black square under the lower woofer?
That is one wild looking driver for sure.
JCarney
That is an IR receiver for remote volume control and input switching.
- Jim
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That is an IR receiver for remote volume control and input switching.
- Jim
Right, because they are active. Thanks!
JCarney
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You have to exercise some restraint with the volume control as you do not get as much in the way of distortion cues to let you know you are playing them too loud.
Jim, this is already true with the SS9.5s...
Cheers,
Drew
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How much would they cost if you had to sell them as a commercial product? I am not in the market. I am still very much enjoying my Salk V3 speakers.
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How much would they cost if you had to sell them as a commercial product? I am not in the market. I am still very much enjoying my Salk V3 speakers.
Probably somewhere between $10000 and $15000 per pair. But I never took the time to figure it out.
- Jim
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Is that tweeter the one that you showed us in August when we visited your place? You said that you had just received a new tweeter that looked like the one in this post.
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Looks like it would be great in a movie room where several people might not sit in the sweet spot. Maybe as a center channel? Don't know how dialog would be though with the XO at 2k.
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Is that tweeter the one that you showed us in August when we visited your place? You said that you had just received a new tweeter that looked like the one in this post.
Yes, it is.
- Jim
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Looks like it would be great in a movie room where several people might not sit in the sweet spot. Maybe as a center channel? Don't know how dialog would be though with the XO at 2k.
Marbles - Nice to see you again!
If you did a powered center, you could cross at 1000-1100Hz. But if passive, there are other tweeters that would work well at a much lower cost. These are very expensive!
- Jim
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Jim, glad to be seen! Couldn't be happier with my HT3's and HT3 center. So glad to be off the speaker merry-go-round.
Hope all is well with you.
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Well, now I at least know what speakers that Tweeter went in!
I would of course love to hear them. Certainly a different approach.
Thrilled with my SS12's of course.
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"Thrilled with my SS12's of course."
I have my bucket list wife; cars; bug out location; house ; daughter (wish I could say that about my son's); and speaker/sub-woofer combo.
When I see someone with a nice car, etc.. I always compliment them. Doesn't mean I want what they have, I almost always don't.
SS12's might be a different story..never heard them..but I would love to listen to them , and love to own them.
You are fortunate to have a pair..I applaud you.
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Hi Marbles Your moniker brought back some memories. Do you by any chance still have those cylindrical Norh speakers I modded for you? Not the Easter Ham ones, but the cylinders? I've always thought they were some of the nicest 2-ways I've ever heard.
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Still have them, probably will never get rid of them. As far as I know, I have the only 2 pair in the world, the little ones the ones you mentioned.
I heard some speakers made of granite in a rectangle shape that had some of the best imaging I ever heard, that was like 15 years ago and I think they only sold about 10 pairs. Eric Hider has (had?) a set.
I think you or Jim should put something like that into production 8)
If you can find something to cast and you want a column shape, two sonotubes of different diameters would be pretty easy.
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Marbles, Can you post some pics of those?
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Jim's thread got hijacked enough and don't think it would be fair to him.
I can pm you a pic later today or tomorrow.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222453)
https://www.sfoglini.com/products/sporkful
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Is your accountant having fun too? I worked up a passive version of this because I wanted to hear the general sound even if the higher crossover point and lower sensitivity pretty much ruled them out as a commercial product. The tweeter needs some work, although it's perfectly fine for an active application. What impressed me was the impact and clarity of the dual Purifi woofers. Others have had trouble making these work, but the ported version Jim designed for the prototype I was working on is great--no port noise and lots of detail, with solid extension down to 32 Hz. It would make a remarkable conventional passive speaker with a different tweeter. ......
For a passive, would these work well with the RAAL from the soundscape series?
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For a passive, would these work well with the RAAL from the soundscape series?
Yes, they would likely work with the RAAL 70-20. That said, we will likely develop a design using them with the Satori beryllium tweeter.
- Jim
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Yes, they would likely work with the RAAL 70-20. That said, we will likely develop a design using them with the Satori beryllium tweeter.
- Jim
Would you be so kind as to share dimensions?
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Would you be so kind as to share dimensions?
With plinths and spikes, they will be 42" H x 8 1/2" W x 13" D.
- Jim
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Since these are active speakers, what amplifier/DSP package are you using with them?
Best... Carlo.
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Since these are active speakers, what amplifier/DSP package are you using with them?
Best... Carlo.
Hypex FUSIONAMP FA252
- Jim
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Those Hypex plate amps are nice!
This has to be one of the more interesting speakers I’ve seen lately.
I wish more people would give active speakers like this a chance. They have so many advantages going for them. I just reviewed a pair of Phil Bamberg’s active speakers for Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/bamberg-series-3-tmw-active-loudspeaker-review/ (https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/bamberg-series-3-tmw-active-loudspeaker-review/) and they were excellent. I think people might come around to actives like this if they only got a chance to hear them.
Best... Carlo.
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Those Hypex plate amps are nice!
This has to be one of the more interesting speakers I’ve seen lately.
I wish more people would give active speakers like this a chance. They have so many advantages going for them. I just reviewed a pair of Phil Bamberg’s active speakers for Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/bamberg-series-3-tmw-active-loudspeaker-review/ (https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/bamberg-series-3-tmw-active-loudspeaker-review/) and they were excellent. I think people might come around to actives like this if they only got a chance to hear them.
Best... Carlo.
A few years ago we developed a self-powered monitor speaker called the PowerPlay. We constantly get calls from people in apartments, especially efficiency apartments in large cities, who don't really have room for a large system. I thought it would be perfect for that application.
It had about the flattest frequency response you could imagine and sounded great. We took it to audio shows and audio society meetings. Often, people would turn up their noses when they heard the words "self-powered." But when we played them, everyone was impressed with their performance. I heard numerous people comment, "I'd never buy a self-powered speaker, but if I did, this would be high on my list."
Over the next three years, we sold ZERO pairs of this model and finally simply sold our original demo speakers.
I was speaking to a client who lived in New York and he said we were aiming at the wrong market. He thought this was a "lifestyle" product and not an "audiophile" product. He was probably right.
He suggested going to the Brooklyn flea market and demoing them. He thought that as soon as we sold a pair to someone in an apartment building, we would get lots of orders from others in that same building and, eventually, people in other apartment complexes as well.
If he was correct (and I think he was), we needed to establish a completely new market for this type of product. And that was something we weren't all that interested in doing.
So, for now at least, we won't normally offer self-powered speakers except as a custom item. And it's too bad since you can create an almost perfect crossover using DSP - something you can't do with a passive crossover.
My guess is that in 10 years most all speakers will be powered with built-in DACs, preamps, amps, Alexa and Google support, Airplay support, Roon support, etc. But we'll see...
- Jim
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I would venture to guess that many people may share my perspective on powered speakers.
Something as beautiful as a Salk speaker, or something similar, that is expensive, is a long term investment for enjoyment.
A few years down the road if your powered plate amp breaks you are hosed. You have a 5-15,000 dollar paperweight, especially if the plate amp has been discontinued like they tend to do.
With a passive speaker that is well cared for, broken external electronics can be replaced and the speakers are still great.
With the way things are manufactured these days, will a plate amp go the distance? It’s a roll of the dice. The SS9.5 sounds great and will last a decade or more for the same financial investment.
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"Thrilled with my SS12's of course."
I have my bucket list wife; cars; bug out location; house ; daughter (wish I could say that about my son's); and speaker/sub-woofer combo.
When I see someone with a nice car, etc.. I always compliment them. Doesn't mean I want what they have, I almost always don't.
SS12's might be a different story..never heard them..but I would love to listen to them , and love to own them.
You are fortunate to have a pair..I applaud you.
Yes, I am very fortunate. I recently changed my electronics and I find that I enjoy these speakers even more. It's a tremendous speaker, punches well above it's price range. I really wish Jim could still get the woofers for the 10's and 12's. Though Accuton is apparantly discontinuing the midrange driver also (boo). So right now I am debating is it time to order up a SS7C while I can still get one, and should I get an extra mid-range just in case...
I also do prefer the RAAL to the Be tweeter. I was fortunate enough to have these at my home and a friends Song 3 Encores at the same time. While different speakers we really did try to pay attention to the absolute highs and while not a huge difference we felt we could hear a bit. Both were quite good of course.
But these SS12's, while out demoing electronics I had the chance to hear the Wilson Sabrina X and Yvettes with the same electronics and same tracks. Granted, different rooms. But I would take the SS12's over both of those speakers every single day of the week, and I think the Yvette is a very good speaker.
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A few years ago we developed a self-powered monitor speaker called the PowerPlay. We constantly get calls from people in apartments, especially efficiency apartments in large cities, who don't really have room for a large system. I thought it would be perfect for that application.
It had about the flattest frequency response you could imagine and sounded great. We took it to audio shows and audio society meetings. Often, people would turn up their noses when they heard the words "self-powered." But when we played them, everyone was impressed with their performance. I heard numerous people comment, "I'd never buy a self-powered speaker, but if I did, this would be high on my list."
Over the next three years, we sold ZERO pairs of this model and finally simply sold our original demo speakers.
- Jim
I would have loved to have a pair but I already had most of my present system and I'm on a budget so I couldn't afford them. :-(
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IMHO, with the Powerplay (a fantastic name to boot), Jim was just ahead of his time...
It’s easy for me to dream though... I don’t have to do the work! :lol:
But I know I’ll be downsizing in the next few years.
I can imagine that I’ll want something smaller than my Encores at that point. How cool would it be to have a high quality pair of Salk cabinets with a single power cord. I’ll open the new cloud based version of Roon via the app on my phone and connect it to the Salks via a lightning cord to a USB on the back. The built in Dac and amp do the rest and I have a system that sounds as good as the one I currently have.
All this while my phone is being charged. :thumb:
I’ll bet that Jim can probably build this right now.
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When I owned my coffee shop in Manhattan, Jim was kind enough to ship his PowerPlay demo speakers to us so potential customers could audition them. I had more than a few days to spend some time listening to them and I was very impressed. I also had concerns about the long term reliability of the plate amp. This got me thinking again today after reading your post...
Since Jim is the king of bespoke speakers in the industry, I don't see why he couldn't build a speaker that contained a passive crossover, two sets of binding posts and a rotary selector for "External Active" and "Internal Passive" setting. Jim could build small enclosures for the plate amps and the customer could have the best of both worlds. If the owner needs to sell these it would be more attractive to a potential customer.
I might just ask Jim if this option might be feasible for SS 7F (originally a passive crossover design) I just put in.
N
I would venture to guess that many people may share my perspective on powered speakers.
Something as beautiful as a Salk speaker, or something similar, that is expensive, is a long term investment for enjoyment.
A few years down the road if your powered plate amp breaks you are hosed. You have a 5-15,000 dollar paperweight, especially if the plate amp has been discontinued like they tend to do.
With a passive speaker that is well cared for, broken external electronics can be replaced and the speakers are still great.
With the way things are manufactured these days, will a plate amp go the distance? It’s a roll of the dice. The SS9.5 sounds great and will last a decade or more for the same financial investment.
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Interesting. I wonder how this would work with Rowen (Swiss) LMT (linear motion technology) tweeter and the Heil AMT big Heil driver in the Kithara. The Kithara uses the Heil driver in open baffle dipole configuration and is crossed at 650hz and extends to 23khz.
https://www.rowen.ch/de/lmt.php
https://precide.ch/eng/eheil/eheil.htm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=237183)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=237184)