[Jim W.]

I own the Super 3Rs with F120A (Alnico) drivers and Eastern Electric Minimax gear (amp, preamp, and HDCD).  I know I owe a review, but the speakers are not broken in and I'm in the middle of a move, which I've known about for some time, so I never really "set-up" my listening room.  So, my questions are general at this point, and the issues I'm going to discuss are more than likely attributable to room and set-up at this point.

First question is about imaging.  Vocals and acoustical guitar are dead center and powerful with pin-point imaging.  Percussion images well and the speakers virtually disappear with simple recordings produced by Allison Krauss, Otmar Liebert, Norah Jones, Cowboy Junkies, Mindy Smith, Holly Cole, Shawn Mullins, etc.  However, string bass and piano seems to be smeared across the speakers and coming from everywhere/nowhere, if that makes sense.  I discovered this while listening to the new Diana Krall CD.  Any ideas?

Second question is about soundstage.  I can't get the soundstage to extend laterally beyond the speakers, to the left and right.  There's some depth, but no lateral dimension.  Although, this improved once I moved the speakers about 8' apart, but not much.

One final note.  I didn't take into consideration that the F120A is rated at 89dB.  My Minimax amplifier is 8 watts.  So, at a full 8 watts I get 98dB at 1 meter, which isn't too bad since I don't listen at ear-bleed levels (usually around 85dB to 90dB on average.  However, some of the music I listen to (and I plan on getting back to classical) will exhibit +/- 10dB to 12dB dips and peaks based on my analog SPL meter.  How much headroom do I need?  It seems to me that I might be constantly running at the limits of the amplifier, which can't be good.

Anyone know anything about Quicksilver Audio?  I've been thinking about the Mid-Monos or Mono 100s.  Although, the V4s sure are nice looking but pricey.  I went the full-range driver, high-efficiency, low power route mainly for sonic quality, but also for the value.

Thanks in advance.

Jim

[Jim W.]

the fact that it's recommended that I have approximately 20dB to 30dB of headroom.  Well, if that's the case, with 89dB speakers I can get there with 64 watts, which should yield I guess around 107 dB.  However, I don't think this calcualtion takes into consideration the fact that I have two speakers.  Also, that dowel tweak reportedly improves soundstage and imaging.

Anyone have any success with the dowel tweak?  A nice wood dowel stained to match the cabinet, with 90-degree mitered ends to meet flush with the cabinet via small velcro pads cut to match the ends of the dowel would probably look nice without damaging the cabinet.  However, I wonder after giving enough room for the excursion of the cone whether or not the dowel would end up being too far away from the aluminum dome of the F120A to be effective.  Anyone experiment with 1/4" and 1/2" dowel, and prefer one over the other?

[Jim W.]

One final question.  The F120A's rated insput is 10 watts and music power is 30 watts.  So, if the driver was to peak at 107dB with 64 watts, would that damage the driver   ?  My apologies in advance for the novice question.

[Carlman]

I wish I could hear your setup.  I too have 89db speakers (GMA Europas) and am using the Minimax 8watt (on loan) and Minimax preamp.  I'm amazed at how well it plays but would like a tiny bit more power.... or more efficient speakers... or maybe do a crossover and sub situation...

If you're overall happy with the sound and would like a little more headroom, why not consider one of Omega's higher-efficiency speakers?  You can always change the character of the amp with different tubes...

I'd really like to hear the Omega's one day.  You're not anywhere near the mid-atlantic/East Coast area are you?

Also, how big is your listening area/room?  I know you mentioned moving but, how big is the future room?  Do you have options?  I moved from a huge room, to an even larger room, then to a tiny room.  I listen in nearfield now because I have no choice.  It really helped to pull the speakers into the room and sit about 6-7' from them.

This method may help your width and depth.  However, the one time I heard full-range, horn-type speakers, the imaging didn't extend laterally past the speakers either... but, they were in the corners and I didn't expect them to...

-C

[Jim W.]

Carlman,

I'm in Atlanta.  Make no mistake, the sound of the Minimax gear and the Omegas is really something to experience, at least from my novice perspective.  The F120As just bring it to the next level.  Going with the standard Fostex drivers after hearing the F120A probably wouldn't work out.  The only move from here would be when Louis builds something to house the F200A.  That driver's still only 90dB, so I'd still need more juice.

I will experiment with various rooms, room treatments, and speaker placement in the new house before making any hasty decisions - not that I have a wide selection after placing kids, wife's office, play room, etc.  I really do think the Minimax gear is great and I called Bill O'Connell and asked him his recommendation of something with more power that sounded as good as the Minimax.  Bill, believe it or not, pointed me in the direction of Quicksilver Audio.  What a guy!  "Bill, when are you going to build some higher output monoblocks?  You've got a customer."

I'm sure I'll get it all sorted out.  The whole system's just so darn near to perfect, I'm forced to make the effort to try and get there.  So, as a result, I'm forced to split hairs, because that's all there is left to do.

I just have a feeling that the correct amount of power would really help things along that path.  I just hope I'm misinterpreting the 30 watt music power rating of the F120A.  If not, I'm stuck.  I'm also still focused on value and not breaking the bank.

Jim

[Mike82]

Jim:

Answering questions 1 and 2.  

1. The bass is still squirrely because they aren't fully broken in. My F120A took a good 300 hrs. Once they break-in, the bass will solidify in space.

2.  There really isn't a lot of soundstage extension beyond the outside of the speakers.  What you 've heard in the past is a design artifact. The basis for my impression has to do with a number of single-driver speakers I've either owned or carried in my shop. Some designers will intentionally wire the tweeters out of phase to accomodate crossover pahse shifting.  The outcome is some part of the treble is being being shot to the outside of the speakers with the mids/bass handling the space between the speakers. It creates a huge soundstage, but not realistic.  Also a lot of pop recordings are done with a component of the song being recorded out of phase with the rest of the music. I remember breaking in some speakers (I think they were JMR Twin MkII which I used to sell) where I wired one speaker out of phase and placed the speakers facing each other. This greatly reduces the output, so you can break in a pair of speakers without having to play thrm very loud. I had radio playing and some Madonna song came on.  All of a sudden the sound became very loud when the chorus section came on.  Then it got back to fairly quiet.  When the chorus came back, it was loud again.  Simple recording tricks.

Try using the Sterophile test CD where Ralph the dog barks in phase and out of phase.  Using the Lamhorn (I used to sell) with AER driver, on the out of phase bark, there are two dogs, each about 3' to the outside of each speaker. In phase, he's right in the middle.

As far as Quicksilver goes, they are great amps, but I wouldn't recommend them for the F120A.  I used to have QS monoblocks with my old Spendor 1/2.  The mids were glorious, but the bass was a tad too wooly. An AudioNote P2-SE was much better. Too low a damping factor which will get you mushy bass.  As I noted in my Super 3R Alnico review, I got the best results with a solid state amp, and I still hold to that opinion. The F120A cone excursion is quite long and you need an amp with a decent damping factor to control the cone excursion.

I'd think the lower powered amps such as the 47 Labs of Audio Zone AMP-1, or a used McIntosh integrated might be the ticket. I'm using a McIntosh MC252 and getting nice sound.

[JLM]

Jim,

Most interpet "music power" as peak power.  In the case of the F120A that translates into 89 dB/w/m + 14 dB of gain = 103 dB at one meter away.  Your right, having two speakers/channels doubles the power and adds another 3 dB.  However as you move farther away than one meter you lose dBs.  From my experience listening as typical distances away in a 2,000 cu. ft. (say 12 ft x 20 ft x 8 ft) room the distance loss roughly equals the room reflection gain + the doubling effect.  So just expect the F120A to average 100 dB (very loud) with 103 dB peaks (nearly symphonic levels) in a typical room.

The F200A does a little better, rated for 40 watts continous with 80 watt peaks and a bit higher efficiency, to produce 106 dB average and 109 dB peaks. Still not in headbanger territory, OTOH the F200A will go lower, but will have more beaming of highs.  (Still no perfect driver/speaker yet.)This rather low power handling characteristic seems to be rather constant with Fostex drivers.

[Bill O'Connell]

Hi Jim,

   Have you tried switching the speaker cables . The MiniMax pre inverts  phase and maybe better results could be had running this way. Some speakers there is not a noticable difference,others seem to prefer reversing the leads.
Regards,
 Bill

[Jim W.]

I have an old Adcom GFA-545 in another system, so I decided to give it a try in place of the 8-watt MiniMax.  It's a 100-watt stereo amplifier.  The Adcom isn't in the same league with the MiniMax as far as overall sonics and low-level detail.  The MiniMax presents ALL of the music in great detail well below the 9-o'clock position, which is sometimes where I listen if it's late at night and the kids are sleeping.  The MiniMax's midrange is also just mind boggling, which I'm sure is a combination of the MiniMax and Omegas.  Otmar Liebert & Lune Negra Live (Greatest Hits) just went dead/flat with the Adcom.  And, the beautiful vocals of Allison Krauss, Norah Jones, Mindy Smith, and Margo Timmons developed a nasty hiss and lost the liquid smoothness always delivered by the MiniMax.

Alright, enough beating up on my poor Adcom.  It served me well during college and it did help to sort out some issues with my Omegas.  I don't know if it's the power or solid state thing as suggested by Mike, but the new Diana Krall CD came to life.  That is, the string bass and piano came to life.  The Adcom picked up where the MiniMax left off up in the 95dB to 100dB range.  The music (excuse the layman's terms) just seemed filled out and had weight.  I discovered new-found bass, which quite frankly surprised me.  I'll even go so far and say that my little Omegas with F120A drivers developed some slam   .  The piano and bass seemed more stable in space as well   .

As you've all pointed out to me, 100dB is very loud.  And, if the F120A is cabable of 103dB or slightly more, as suggested, than that's more than enough for me.

So, where do I go from here?  I want the overall sonic quality, clarity, midrange, smoothness, and low-level detail and presentation of the MiniMax.  But, I also want what I heard with the larger solid state amplifier.

Will I have to give up sound quality (i.e., musical detail) with power?  And, I really don't want to lose the musical midrange by going to solid state - if that's always the case.  Mike, you suggested the Audio Zone Amp-1, which is 45 watts and also capable of 100-watt peaks.  I'm sure this is more than enough.  I see at Underwood HiFi that they also make an Amp-2, which I think are monoblocks.

Thanks again for all the help.  Underwood HiFi is just a few miles away from me, so I'll probably go check out the Amp-1/2.  Also, I see at Audio Classics a McIntosh MC-162 (160 watts) for $1,829.  Anyone know anything about this amplifier?  All that power seems like throwing a sledgehammer at my little Omegas.  It can't possibly have the low-level finesse and detail of the MiniMax, can it?  Is McIntosh like B&W (no offense intended)   ?

Jim

[Passive Chappy]

You might want to check out the Flying Mole amps or any of the other digital amps out there.  I think they might solve your issues.

[Louis O]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the post and many thanks for all the great answers.
I do agree with Mike 82 completely regarding the alnico speakers. The damping factor goes a long way to getting the best bass response. The Minimax is a wonderful amp and had so much success with it at the shows. The combo on the standard speakers is great with amazing mids. Bill, Tom and I have gotten great comments on the synergy at CES and Montreal about the system.

The Audiozone is a great way to go with the Alnico drivers. They do have longer excursions and lower sensitivity which isn't a problem at all with the Audiozone. I do have the Amp 1 and the match is very very good. It's one the best SS amps I've heard and definetly worth checking out.
The monoblocks would mate very well with the great sounding Minimax pre.

Many thanks,
Louis

[tybee]

Another choice for power is the Channel Islands Mono Blocks which Underwood HiFi sells.  The Channel Islands mono blocks are chip amps like the 47 Labs, and they will match your EE gear including blue lights on the front panel.  I have read where the the EE grar matches with the Channel Island mono blocks very well.

My $.02

[eardrumstick]

Hi Jim and Omega fans,
We are displaying (and demoing) the fine Omega Super 3s, Grande 6 Rs and Super 3 BPC (and other single driver designs) with SET amps/ passive autoformer linestage and either cd or vinyl sources.
We are centrally located in the Altlanta area just off I-20 if anyone care to hear the Omegas we have in stock.

All the Omegas we have had in the store image beyond (and behind) the speaker if the speakers are placed out from the walls and the room is not reverberant and if the source is miced/recorded well. The Super 3 BPC is especially good at wall to wall sound stage and I really enjoy classical music on the BPCs.

A few tips to improve imaging and overall sound quality which work for us-
1. solid silver interconnects (or copper) We are using Audiopath and Omega wires- very good and affordable
2. Sorbothane pucks under linestage and cd player- made a dramatic difference in imaging, bass definition, dynamic contrasts (accented notes are faster and bigger) and quite passages are clearer and more open/natural. BTW, I want to try the pucks under the Explorer 805 amps but they are too heavy for the pucks on hand. (anyone have experience with the Vibrapod line? Is it a good as the Sorbothane?)

Enjoy,
Dave Strohauer
Earthshaking Music Inc

[Jim W.]

Can someone please educate me on damping factor and what I'll need to efficiently and effectively drive the F120A drivers?  Are there any tube-amp options or do I need to stay focused on SS?

Also, is anyone familiar with the Quad II-forty monoblocks?  See http://www.iagamerica.com/quad/iiforty.htm.  Would these work with my MiniMax pre and Omegas?  I can pick them up local - used.  Trying to mitigate the damage in expense due to the first mistake I made.  Tough to do while trying to improve on the MiniMax amp.

Thank you,

Jim

[Jim W.]

Here's an answer for the damping factor question.  Thought I'd do a little homework.

http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/mdampingfactor.html