What to upgrade next?

jackmonkeyhat · « **on:** 7 Jul 2011, 05:46 pm »

Hi all, I'd love your perspective on what to upgrade next in my 2 Channel PC set-up. What would you upgrade next if you had a max of 2k to spend?

Just as context I've been thinking about upgrading my PC, but I'm wondering if those dollars would be better spent elsewhere. The set-up sounds pretty darn good to me, but I'm curious as to what I'm missing out on by using the Emotiva amp, and the Song Towers as oppose to some other speakers.

Set-up:
1. Speakers: Salk Song Towers
2: Amp: Emotiva XPA-2: http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm
3. DAC/Preamp combo: Wyred 4 Sound Dac-2 : http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/457975
4. Computer Set-up: PC with Windows 7 Running JRiver Media Center 16. Loseless files stores on External drive (not Solid State)

Grateful for any insights you can provide

WGH · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Jul 2011, 10:36 pm »

First off I have never heard an Emotiva amp but I bet they work great for a home theater setup, for two channel music - people tend to move to another brand after a while.

Salk and Van Alstine have a great synergy so I would start there, for 2 grand you have quite a few choices:
The Insight 440 if you want all solid state,
The Fet Valve Ultra+ 350 which would probable work the best and take the edge off the W4S stuff
Or the Ultravalve if you want to try all tubes.
http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=107&Itemid=209

TJHUB · « **Reply #2 on:** 8 Jul 2011, 12:21 am »

Quote from: jackmonkeyhat on 7 Jul 2011, 05:46 pm

Hi all, I'd love your perspective on what to upgrade next in my 2 Channel PC set-up. What would you upgrade next if you had a max of 2k to spend?

Just as context I've been thinking about upgrading my PC, but I'm wondering if those dollars would be better spent elsewhere. The set-up sounds pretty darn good to me, but I'm curious as to what I'm missing out on by using the Emotiva amp, and the Song Towers as oppose to some other speakers.

Set-up:
1. Speakers: Salk Song Towers
2: Amp: Emotiva XPA-2: http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm
3. DAC/Preamp combo: Wyred 4 Sound Dac-2 : http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/457975
4. Computer Set-up: PC with Windows 7 Running JRiver Media Center 16. Loseless files stores on External drive (not Solid State)

Grateful for any insights you can provide

You have some great components there. Nothing jumps out as particularly weak in any way. What do YOU think is missing or could be improved in your setup? I have some thoughts, but it's YOU that should hear a need.

What size is your room?

I do agree that Emotiva would not be my first choice in amps, but the XPA-2 is a decent amp and should NOT create any unnecessary cause for concern in my opinion.

How is the DAC-2 connected to the PC?

jackmonkeyhat · « **Reply #3 on:** 8 Jul 2011, 02:15 am »

Thanks for the great suggestions guys

TJHUB to answer your questions -
I am connected to the DAC via async USB. It sounded weak compared to coax initially, but after a firmware update the DAC-2 sounds at least on par with Coax.

Room size at the moment is 9ft x 16ft (a lively basement with wooden floors and a rug) but we are planning on moving house soon in the near future.

I did audition a peachtree nova (combined dac/pre-amp, and amp), but the W4S Dac and XPA-2, had a waay more fuller sound. The W4S Dac was just in a different league

I think my only issue is that sometimes high frequency sounds come through too prominently on certain tracks compared to lower frequencies. On some tracks this sounds amazing (Dave Matthews, Jazz, Norah Jones), but on others (like Sean McDonald) that sound great in the car, I find percussion instruments like cymbols and triangles to be overbearing and not at all like hearing a band live. Similarly on songs that do have more bass I cannot replicate the same type of sound I'm used to hearing on Vinyl with Monitor speakers.

I heard alot of noise about the DAC being too detailed, but I'm wondering whether the song towers or the XPA-2 are the limiting factors for this issue. Thoughts?

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #4 on:** 8 Jul 2011, 02:26 am »

Both the brightness of the room and that amp. Treat the space with items you can take with later and then see how it sounds. Then upgrade the amp. The speakers and dac are primo pieces. Using FLAC files?

TJHUB · « **Reply #5 on:** 8 Jul 2011, 02:36 am »

Quote from: jackmonkeyhat on 8 Jul 2011, 02:15 am

Thanks for the great suggestions guys

TJHUB to answer your questions -
I am connected to the DAC via async USB. It sounded weak compared to coax initially, but after a firmware update the DAC-2 sounds at least on par with Coax.

Room size at the moment is 9ft x 16ft (a lively basement with wooden floors and a rug) but we are planning on moving house soon in the near future.

I did audition a peachtree nova (combined dac/pre-amp, and amp), but the W4S Dac and XPA-2, had a waay more fuller sound. The W4S Dac was just in a different league

I think my only issue is that sometimes high frequency sounds come through too prominently on certain tracks compared to lower frequencies. On some tracks this sounds amazing (Dave Matthews, Jazz, Norah Jones), but on others (like Sean McDonald) that sound great in the car, I find percussion instruments like cymbols and triangles to be overbearing and not at all like hearing a band live. Similarly on songs that do have more bass I cannot replicate the same type of sound I'm used to hearing on Vinyl with Monitor speakers.

I heard alot of noise about the DAC being too detailed, but I'm wondering whether the song towers or the XPA-2 are the limiting factors for this issue. Thoughts?

Your situation is not easy, especially since you plan to move soon. This alone would cause me to put any further changes on hold as your new room could potentially change things significantly.

You are currently in a very small room. Are your speakers on the short or long wall? If on the short wall, you are dealing with some serious side reflections that could alone be the cause of your "high frequency sounds come through too prominently" issue. You might consider some simple room treatments to test this issue.

I am under the impression that the XPA-2 is one of Emotiva's amps that tend to be a little warmer than some of the others. I don't believe that is a big contributor to your issue, but I can't be sure. If you were to replace one piece of your current setup, I'd replace the amp only after you try room treatments.

Lastly, the SongTowers are not strong on bass. Often times, a bottom end can contribute to mids and highs sounding over done. Add to this issue the idea that your frequency response below 100Hz is likely unbalanced causing some tracks to sound worse than others. An EQ'd sub could work magic in this regard, but again, only after having properly treated the room.

So here's what I'd do. Wait until you move before making any changes, or try treating the room, anything else could be a waste of your money.

floresjc · « **Reply #6 on:** 8 Jul 2011, 02:38 am »

Nothing really stands out to me. I have the SongTowers, with an AVA Insight DAC and the Insight 440, and I stream from my PC via an Airport express connected to the DAC.

If you wanted to pick nits you could probably swap out the amp for say a parasound or AVA or something, but you would surely get more bang for your buck with room treatments.

WGH · « **Reply #7 on:** 8 Jul 2011, 03:05 am »

Waiting until you move is good advise. Even though room treatments would solve a lot of your problems, getting them now, not knowing if they will work in your new place either visually or physically could be a waste of money.

Though not usually used with Salk speakers, the Touchstone tweeter surrounds would tame some of the energy bouncing off all the hard surfaces. I use a home made version to great effect.
http://www.diffractionbegone.com/index.html

If you really must spend some money then a SongSub in a matching finish would fill out the bottom octave and can be used in your new abode too.
http://www.salksound.com/songsub%20overview%20-%20pricing.htm

Nuance · « **Reply #8 on:** 8 Jul 2011, 01:36 pm »

I am also in the room treatments camp. You can take them with you when you move into your new home, and they are guaranteed to be as useful in the new space as they are in the current one. Nothing effects the sound more than the speakers and room, so get those in order first (you're already half way there, having picked the finest speakers under $4000 and all

).

jackmonkeyhat · « **Reply #9 on:** 8 Jul 2011, 06:16 pm »

Thanks Gents.

Seems like consensus is to try room treatments first. I mentioned this to my wife and she looked very concerned

Any suggestions on how I identify points of relection and companies that sell materials to mitigate this (that pass the WAF)?

TJHub speakers are currently in the middle of the long side of the room about 5ft appart.

Big Red Machine - wrt file types I'm using Windows Media Loseless. I compared to FLAC and couldn't hear much of a difference on my system. Plus in this format I have all of the metadata preserved when I transfer the files to my Windows Phone 7. Did you hear much of a difference in your system?

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 Jul 2011, 06:26 pm »

The mirror technique: have someone move a hand mirror along the wall while you are in the sweetspot chair and when you can see the front baffle then that is your first reflection point. Can be used for floor and ceiling also.

Raw 703 from GIK or Ready Acoustics, you can get photo paneled pieces from GIK or this guy on Audiogon: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accsacco&1312748826&/Custom-Printed-Panels-For-Room-Acoustics

ArthurDent · « **Reply #11 on:** 8 Jul 2011, 06:37 pm »

Hey jackmh -

Can't remember which setup you heard when you were here, best guess would be the original T-8 with the Omega 250, & maybe Insight DAC, which was before I did some upgrades. While it wasn't computer feed you should have an idea what Frank's SS amps sound like with the STs, if you can remember that far back. Obviously I can't since I'm not sure what the exact setup was. That system now runs Ultra Pre & Ultra 550 amp. So far my opinion with the STs is the more tubes the better, and the Ultras strike a nice balance. I run the T-8 & now Insight 250 here in my office.

So did you get the pup ? I can't remember if you said. Hope all is well with you, and you're spinn' vinyl as much as you'd like. Take Care, catcha later.

jackmonkeyhat · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Jul 2011, 02:05 am »

Thanks Big Red, the custom panels look amazing.

ArthurDent, great to hear from you mate. Sounds like the system has had a major update - sounded great back, must be fantastic now.

No bulldog pups for us - seems like they get very expensive fast with their health problems unfortunately.

jackmonkeyhat · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Dec 2012, 07:07 am »

Update: I've moved house, and would appreciate revisiting advice on upgrades.

So here's the backstory: I ended up pulling the trigger on the rythmik sub, and this has certainly helped fill out my music, thank you! My remaining issue now is that I feel like the music has a noticeable veil on it, almost as if if some sound effects were being applied (which is not the case).

The setup now is
Router>Synology NAS (where my music is stored)>Laptop PC with JRiver via USB cable> W4S Dac-2> Emotiva XPA-2 (via XLR cables)
W4S Dac-2> Rythmic Sub(via RCA)

Room wise things are a little different here. I'm in the family room now with dimensions of width 14ft, length 18ft (however there is a small wall separator, before this wall flows into the kitchen. My speakers are on the long side of the room and opposite are windows.

Here's my question - given I'm now in the family room with speakers facing windows is there any minimal kind of room treatment that might pass the WAF? Additionally given where the equipment is. Is this this my limiting factor OR would changing out my 5 year old dell laptop to a CAPS 3 PC make more difference than an amp upgrade? More details here: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/495-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-lagoon/

Thanks for any guidance!

guf · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Dec 2012, 08:04 am »

Having some kind of room treatments on stands makes it possible to tuck them away when not in use...or maybe if they are out the wife will just get use to seeing them. I think the biggest improvement i heard was from monster bass traps on my wall behind the listening position. I have my corners treated also but feel the rear wall really helped me.

I've changed amps 3 times in 6 months and honestly the difference was minimal compared to the room treatments. my ava 400r in my system did "warm" up the sound and addressed some of the issues you talked about in previous posts. when you are ready for new gear I suggest an off ramp product connected to the w4s dac 2. I agree with reviews of this where it added a layer of detail not noticed before. I also think it added to my listening pleasure more so than changing amps.

good luck

TJHUB · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Dec 2012, 12:31 pm »

Quote from: jackmonkeyhat on 18 Dec 2012, 07:07 am

Update: I've moved house, and would appreciate revisiting advice on upgrades.

So here's the backstory: I ended up pulling the trigger on the rythmik sub, and this has certainly helped fill out my music, thank you! My remaining issue now is that I feel like the music has a noticeable veil on it, almost as if if some sound effects were being applied (which is not the case).

The setup now is
Router>Synology NAS (where my music is stored)>Laptop PC with JRiver via USB cable> W4S Dac-2> Emotiva XPA-2 (via XLR cables)
W4S Dac-2> Rythmic Sub(via RCA)

Room wise things are a little different here. I'm in the family room now with dimensions of width 14ft, length 18ft (however there is a small wall separator, before this wall flows into the kitchen. My speakers are on the long side of the room and opposite are windows.

Here's my question - given I'm now in the family room with speakers facing windows is there any minimal kind of room treatment that might pass the WAF? Additionally given where the equipment is. Is this this my limiting factor OR would changing out my 5 year old dell laptop to a CAPS 3 PC make more difference than an amp upgrade? More details here: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/495-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-lagoon/

Thanks for any guidance!

Is your listening position up against the windows? Any chance you can post some pics?

Have you tried running Fidelizer on your laptop? If not, you should at least try it.

As a CAPS v2 owner, nothing beats them for digital sound quality into the right DAC. They'll certainly beat your laptop (at least the versions with the SOtM cards will). Your issue could be more room issues than anything, so start there first.

Nuance · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Dec 2012, 02:25 pm »

+1 on the pictures; it's a bit difficult to picture the room right now.

jackmonkeyhat · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Dec 2012, 02:11 am »

Thanks for the input gents. Here are photos of the room. Note the subwoofer next to my Salks, and the angled archway next to the song tower. TJHUb, yes listening is on the sofa next to the window, and thanks for flagging fidelizer, I've never come across this before. Note also that it seems like my only wall that I could treat is behind the TV, would you agree?

putz · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 Dec 2012, 02:35 am »

Can you close the curtains behind you when you're listening. Also pull the speakers out towards you and see if that makes a difference. If that works you could put them on a base that allows for easy moving in and out to keep the wife happy.

Saturn94 · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 Dec 2012, 04:09 pm »

Quote from: putz on 22 Dec 2012, 02:35 am

Can you close the curtains behind you when you're listening. Also pull the speakers out towards you and see if that makes a difference. If that works you could put them on a base that allows for easy moving in and out to keep the wife happy.

+1
Further out and further apart will open up the soundstage quite a bit. Inexpensive furniture sliders work great for easily moving them around.