What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?

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pearsall001

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There's a lot of chat on other forums about this topic. They're the one's that swear that with today's electronics, and a properly set up A/B test that no one can tell the difference. One fellow even offers $10,000 for anyone who can pass the controled test. To date he says no one has collected yet. Having Frank's OmegaStar 440EX amp I am in the other camp, where to our ears there is definetely a difference. I think the other camp spends way too much time trying to convince us that their info & specs are to be taken as gospel & how darn we say otherwise. I wonder if they ever listen to music or just test their gear all the time. What camp are you in? 

bhobba

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Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #1 on: 19 Jul 2006, 02:57 am »
There's a lot of chat on other forums about this topic. They're the one's that swear that with today's electronics, and a properly set up A/B test that no one can tell the difference. One fellow even offers $10,000 for anyone who can pass the controled test. To date he says no one has collected yet. Having Frank's OmegaStar 440EX amp I am in the other camp, where to our ears there is definetely a difference. I think the other camp spends way too much time trying to convince us that their info & specs are to be taken as gospel & how darn we say otherwise. I wonder if they ever listen to music or just test their gear all the time. What camp are you in?

I am in the camp there is an audible difference but it is subtle compared to speakers and to a lesser extent CD players.  Highly competent engineers like Hugh Dean design amps by ear.  I am not sure if Frank does this but I am sure from his comments he can hear a difference (albeit subtle) between his solid state and valve amps.  The opinion of guys of this stature can not be dismissed lightly.  I would not keep that $10,000 offer too long - it will be taken.

It reminds me of those that claim high bit rate MP3 is indistinguishable from the original.  Many controlled studies confirmed it so people thought it was true.  Then along comes the guy who wrote monkey audio lossless compression and he was able to consistently pick the difference blind.  The key is to know what to look for and train youself to hear it.  Once trained some have commented they wished they didn't do it because they were perfectly happy with it before.

Thanks
Bill

kfr01

Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #2 on: 19 Jul 2006, 03:21 am »
I am in the camp there is an audible difference but it is subtle compared to speakers...

I agree.  A/B test die-hards don't understand that we listen over hour+ long listening sessions.  I feel that the ability of components to convey emotion without fatigue cannot be captured in an A/B test lasting a few minutes long.  I don't think anyone has been able to prove longer A/B tests are valid, as our "audio memories" aren't good at that sort of direct comparison.  I believe that after living with a component for a few days and listening to a few long listening sessions the character starts to come out. 

That's my "audiophool" answer.  For us, and the way we listen, I think it matters.

For the rest of the population, usually more interested in HT, my advice is this.  Buy a $1,000 denon (or whatever) receiver; this price is high enough to get out of the stupid quality control and engineering corner cutting region and into a component that, honestly, gets pretty f'ing close to indistinguishable from pricier separates.

nathanm

Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #3 on: 19 Jul 2006, 03:23 am »
Problem is that there's no way to verify what another person hears.  That is why I propose that future humans should be bred with an external spinal cord attachment so people can temporarily hook into another person's brain.  That way you can confirm or deny if your friend is indeed hearing dulcet tones from amp A but not amp B or if it all sounds the same and he's just trying to look cool.

Wind Chaser

Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #4 on: 19 Jul 2006, 03:31 am »
All amps sound the same.  Not only that, all cables, CD players, turntables etc sound the same.  And all audiophiles are people with way too much money, ego and no brains.  Now let's all go get a life.

MaxCast

Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #5 on: 19 Jul 2006, 10:31 am »
Maybe it does all sound the same, but we just hear different :scratch:

woodsyi

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Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #6 on: 19 Jul 2006, 12:51 pm »
... but we just hear different :scratch:

This is absolutely, possitively and emphatically true not only between listeners but between states of mind on a single person.  Last night I heard different things from my amps after each glass of wine.  After four glasses of wine followed by a bit of Cognac,  even Trini Lopez sounded good.  :icon_lol:  I had uncle, aunt and the in-laws visiting and I was spinning Bob, Joan, Mamas and Papas, Kingston Trio, Limelighters, PP&M, etc. etc. for them. These old fogies weren't bad at all.  :lol: :lol:

Zheeeem

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Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #7 on: 19 Jul 2006, 05:15 pm »
I think it's a silly "debate".  Most of these folks are trying to justify to themselves that their $300 receiver sounds just as good as a $3,000+ setup.  They do this by looking at frequency response charts and distortion figures instead of listening to stuff.

If all amps sounded the same, then either: (1) all amps are perfect, or (2) all amps are imperfect in EXACTLY the same way. 

Doublej

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Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #8 on: 19 Jul 2006, 05:52 pm »
I'd love to see the disclaimer on this test. I am sure I can find two amps of similar design philosophy that sound alike but I can definitely find two amplifiers that sound different. Unless of course, the test conditions are written in such a way that only amplifiers that sound alike are included in the equipment list.

The listenting test is actually very straightforward. It doesn't matter that different people hear differently. You don't need to understand what they are hearing.

It is simply whether or not a person can correctly identify if the sound is being played through amp 1 or through amp 2. The statistical gurus will tell you what the correct identification rate must be to determine if the person has been successful in achieving a correct identification of amp 1 from amp 2.

As for me yes they sound different, how different depends on the two amplifiers under comparison and how resolving the rest of the setup is.
 


avahifi

Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #9 on: 19 Jul 2006, 07:40 pm »
As I have explained many times, the problem with "scientific" A-B amp testing is that the amplifiers are connected to a common source and then into a speaker switcher, which can switch either amplifier into the speaker load.

What the ABXers fail to understand is that the distortion characteristics of an amplifier are reflected back into its input jacks because the feedback loop contains these distortions.  Since the inputs of the amps are being fed from a common source, the sum of the distortions of both amplifiers are present at the input of either amp being used.  Thus essentially both amplifier under test under these conditions will sound the same, and generally the overall sense of the listening session is unsatisfactory, for good reason.

When we do circuit design listening tests, we build one channel new, one channel old, (matched gain of course), set a pair of matched speakers side by side, randomize the connections, and swap back and forth with the balance control. Nobody, including the tester, knows which channel is which until the tests are done.

We ask ourselves first the question, is there any difference?  Second, is there a better-worse difference?

Almost always we can hear the differences, but the results are not always what we would have predicted.

This process eliminates the ABX common input issue which has clouded so called "scientific" listening tests for years.  Of course the ABXers don't believe us, but they are too pig headed to make the simple measurements to the amplifiers to show themselves that the distortion is indeed appearing at the input jacks.  It is.

Frank Van Alsitne

cdorval1

Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #10 on: 19 Jul 2006, 08:44 pm »
I have been on both sides of this debate in my life.  "Stereo Review" was regular reading for me for years, with Julian Hirsch reviewing amplifiers and receivers and repeating the mantra "there is not a difference."  The advice was to buy based on the power and features you needed, and what looked the coolest.  As I have learned (from Frank), Mr. Hirsch was for all these years measuring and listening disregarding the fact that "the distortion characteristics of the amplifier are reflected back to it inputs," as Frank says above.

More important, my ears and brain hear differences among power amplifiers.  At some point on the price or design-quality curve there is a step into musicality or realness that is simply wonderful.  I think some people never hear this, and it is their loss.  It adds richness and beauty to life.  And, as AVA demonstrates, it doesn't have to cost more than your car.

I have spent years living with AR (the old days), Harmon-Kardon (also the old days), Carver, NAD and AVA.  As many folks in this forum, I have spent hundreds of hours listening in audio stores to mid- and high-end equipment from many makers.  I have lived with a T7 and FET-Valve 550exr for a couple of years.  Right now I am very pleased with my Super PAS Three and Ultimate 70 temporarily driving a pair of B&W 600s.  There a sense of "just the music"--nothing added or taken away.  I am looking forward to receiving a pair of Salk HT3s in the next couple of weeks--and I may need to upgrade and bridge my other U70.

Craig

Frihed91

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Not to me
« Reply #11 on: 19 Jul 2006, 09:02 pm »
That's all i care about.   

lcrim

Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #12 on: 19 Jul 2006, 11:02 pm »
This article relates to the subject.  I will not defend or explain it, but it was a very interesting read for me.  Check it out.
http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index.html

john1970

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Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #13 on: 20 Jul 2006, 12:07 am »
My take is that yes you can hear a difference between amps, but it is more subtle than the difference between different speakers.  When I auditioned VMPS speakers I changed between a NAD C372 and a Bryston 6B.  The significantly larger Bryston have more depth and much bettter defined bass.  Hence, I will be upgrading to a Bryston amp (probably 4B) in the near future.

Cheers,

John

Soundbitten

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Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #14 on: 20 Jul 2006, 12:20 am »
I hear a difference in amps but I hear a bigger difference in preamps .

avahifi

Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #15 on: 20 Jul 2006, 12:48 am »
I visited Julian Hirsch years ago.  His listening room was one of the worst i have ever experienced.  It was a two car attached garage converted to a workshop full of steel tables and racks, hard floor, hard walls, and it sounded like a grade school lunch room.  He was comparing big B&W and big KEF speakers at the time ,and we tried both our amplifier and another (I foreget what) on the speakers.  Of course, in that enviornment, nobody could hear any meaningful differences at all.

All amps sound the same, true at Julian's place.

Frank Van Alstine

SET Man

Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #16 on: 20 Jul 2006, 01:34 am »
Hey!

   Well, what do we have here? Another never ending debate?



  It is like saying... all violins sound the same, they all could be tuned to play the same note. If that is the case than there is no point of any vioinist today wanting to play the Stradivarius on the concert right?

But... Man! Honestly I sometime wish that every thing sound the same. That would have save me lots of time and money. Than I could just get a small Bose system and just enjoy the music as I would with my system right now. :D  Sadly I'm not tone deaf. :wink:

Take care,
Buddy :thumb:

Dmason

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Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #17 on: 20 Jul 2006, 01:38 am »
Every amp I have ever heard sounded different.

ss397

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Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #18 on: 20 Jul 2006, 03:40 am »
well i think some of the answer has to do with how critically you can or do listen. all violins or guitars can sound alike to some people. but to lifetime player/listener/critic types the sound is as different as night and day. i am a guitar player and the tone is everything and has more facets than days of the year. violinists take it to a level i can't even comhrehend with the intonation in their playing. i think the same thing can happen in audio. when you quit hearing honest differences and improvements you should be happy, you are at the end of your journey. i do think that the amplifiers are better than the other components generally, adding less color and distortion than other components like media,speakers, source, cables.

Carlman

Re: What's your take on the "All amps sounds the same" debate?
« Reply #19 on: 20 Jul 2006, 04:13 am »
Just depends on if you know what you're listening for... Like any other subjective hobby, knowing the finer points make it interesting.  Some people say wine 'tastes good' or 'tastes bad' and that's it.  Others know what they're tasting... Some love wine and others can take it or leave it... Same with hifi, violins, scotch, etc. 

It's fun to be able to hear an amp and be able to understand the intent of its designer. 

-C