AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: Paoli Dad on 31 Mar 2008, 04:46 pm
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Hi , looking to upgrade sound in our family room with 50 in plasma & 15 yr old yamaha / polk setup. Appx 20% music , 80% movies. Speakers blending into decor is important and Song Towers appear to fit the bill but we have furniture below tv so no way we could bring a center into the mix. Also likely will never put a sub in the room ( tho that could change in future) . Somewhat formal family room , this will never be a "home theater" , but I do want the best sound possible. Looking at fronts only now , surrounds in a year. Anyone with input how Song Towers would work in "phantom center" set up? I know we're sacrificying without a center , but wanted to find out if Song Towers are a good option or if we should look elsewhere. NOTE: please dumb-down your responses to my novice level , much of the input I read is lost on me. :D
Haven't picked the A/V receiver yet so any input on power required also appreciated.
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Paoli Dad -
Others can feel free to chime in, but this is an easy question to answer. The most important consideration in your case is off-axis response. The better this is, the better the speaker will perform as a phantom center.
In this regard, it would be hard to top the SongTowers. We published an off-axis FR plot when we introduced the model. It wasn't the standard 15-degree plot. It was a 60-degree plot!
All of this means that the sound quality holds up very well if you are not in a listening position directly in front of the speakers. Given your limitations, you would be hard-pressed to find a speaker with better off-axis response.
Of all of the speakers we produce, the SongTowers, in my opinion, would be best for your particular application.
- Jim
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Thanks Jim. I'm impressed, first response is from Mr Salk. shouldn't you be out building speakers? kidding, i've been reading up about you & your speakers for past few months , impressed. I've gone from "who the heck would buy speakers over the Internet" to placing yours atop the short list. Any input on power requirements for 2 Salk towers & 2 surrounds? i'd like to spend $1k or under on a/v receiver and want to make sure it has sufficient power . i don't require it to play extremely loud but want enough to bring out the best in the speakers. thanks
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Paoli Dad -
Thanks Jim. I'm impressed, first response is from Mr Salk. shouldn't you be out building speakers? kidding,
We'll, I'm at the shop and currently spraying topcoat. I just have a few minutes between coats to answer emails, etc.
i've been reading up about you & your speakers for past few months , impressed. I've gone from "who the heck would buy speakers over the Internet" to placing yours atop the short list. Any input on power requirements for 2 Salk towers & 2 surrounds? i'd like to spend $1k or under on a/v receiver and want to make sure it has sufficient power . i don't require it to play extremely loud but want enough to bring out the best in the speakers. thanks
Just about any reciever made these days can output 100 watts and that is plenty of power for the SongTowers. They are an easy load for just about any amp.
I usually don't like to make amp recommendations since everyone has their own personal favorites. But I have found Panasonic digital recievers do quite a good job for the money. I don't know what their current model is, but I think it is the XR57. Don't be fooled by the low price. These do a great job for the money.
- Jim
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Paoli Dad,
I've been using a pair of ST's and running a 'phantom center' since last September. As Jim said, the ST's work great without a center. I'd planned on buying a SongCenter (and likely will when my budget allows) but I really can't complain about how the ST's reproduce dialogue in movies. I'd certainly suggest you get a pair and get a SongCenter when you can afford it.
As far as a receiver..I've used the Panasonic XR-55 (same power as the newer XR-57) and Jim's right, it is pretty amazing for the price. (Don't think the XR-55 can be had anymore (except used) but I think there are still some XR-57 available.) Never used the Panasonic with the ST's though since I sold it before I got them. I'm using Outlaw separates but my amp is only 75wpc, and it is more than adequate for my space.
john
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I'll just chime in that I'm a two-channel music guy - no center, no sub, no surrounds. But we do watch DVDs on the TV that resides in a cabinet between my two Song Towers.
Over the weekend, my son and I watched "War of the Worlds" (the recent Stephen Speilberg edition). The sound was phenomenal. This is a big crashing ominous soundtrack framing Speilberg's terrifying vision of the tripods. With the Song Towers, it was total immersion in the viewing and listening experience.
I felt no need for any other speakers than the two I was hearing . . .
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I'm a two-channel guy, too. And it's great to hear that the Songtowers perform so well with video. Thanks for sharing that. I've just ordered a pair for our small TV room.
Craig
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The off axis performance was one reason I really was drawn to the SongTowers as well. I don't have room for a center at this time and possibly in the future as well. I also have a somewhat formal livingroom due to the WAF. I think the SongTowers with their outstanding finish (I have not seen in person, but everyone raves about them) and off axis response are the only speakers I could ever get past the WAF. Maybe besides nothing, or ORB or heaven forbid BOSE... :duh:
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I have SongTowers and SongCenter but today I was experimenting listening to the Talking Heads DVD "Stop Making Sense" in Stereo. I have noticed that how well the voice is centered depends some on the Receiver's settings.
For reference, I am using the Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre, a Sunfire amp, and playing the DVD on a Sony 555ES. I set the DVD to "stereo output" from the DVD's menu. I have the SongTowers 8' apart and listen from 12' away normally. The Towers are toed in but not all the way to the center listening position.
In listening to the DVD from the optical source and selecting "Direct" mode on the receiver, Byrne's voice seemed to come from the right speaker. Listening through 5.1 analog source (but only the front 2 channels outputting due to DVD selection) and selecting "Direct", Byrne's voice was perfectly centered. I had to put my ear to the center to check for sure that it wasn't playing. From the optical source I also chose a few selections such as "Dolby PL11 Music" which does over-ride the DVD's 2 channel selection and force the other speakers in to action. With the SongCenter engaged in this way, the sound was a bit different, but no less enjoyable that in stereo.
So I agree that the SongTowers can do quite well at reproducing complex music and movie sound while also centering the vocals as long as you experiment with speaker placement and receiver settings.
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Hi Jim,
I'm interested in the HT3s. Center channel speaker is an issue in my family room. Please compare running the HT3s in phantom center mode versus the Song Towers in phantom center mode.
Thanks
Paoli Dad -
Others can feel free to chime in, but this is an easy question to answer. The most important consideration in your case is off-axis response. The better this is, the better the speaker will perform as a phantom center.
In this regard, it would be hard to top the SongTowers. We published an off-axis FR plot when we introduced the model. It wasn't the standard 15-degree plot. It was a 60-degree plot!
All of this means that the sound quality holds up very well if you are not in a listening position directly in front of the speakers. Given your limitations, you would be hard-pressed to find a speaker with better off-axis response.
Of all of the speakers we produce, the SongTowers, in my opinion, would be best for your particular application.
- Jim
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I have the SongTowers and SongCenter. To be honest, the SongTowers blew me away - very big bang for the buck. Best home theater upgrade I've done in a while. I ran in phantom center mode for a while and was very happy.
Then my SongCenter arrived. While the quality of the cabinet was excellent, the SC didn't give me a big increase in audio enjoyment. After the SongTowers I think I was at a point of diminishing returns.
On the plus side, the SongCenter will anchor the center dialog position. And it's aesthetically pleasing. But the SongTowers do a pretty good job with both of those.
On the negative side, it's not the same transmission line design and the drivers are horizontally aligned. Apparently it also requires more break-in. To me it sounds good, but slightly different than the ST's. And the extra cost over phantom is a negative.
Now I find myself saving for a pair of SongTowers for a 2-channel setup upstairs. Without the SC I'd be halfway there!
So for the cost conscious, phantom center is a very good option.
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Paoli Dad -
Thanks Jim. I'm impressed, first response is from Mr Salk. shouldn't you be out building speakers? kidding,
We'll, I'm at the shop and currently spraying topcoat. I just have a few minutes between coats to answer emails, etc.
i've been reading up about you & your speakers for past few months , impressed. I've gone from "who the heck would buy speakers over the Internet" to placing yours atop the short list. Any input on power requirements for 2 Salk towers & 2 surrounds? i'd like to spend $1k or under on a/v receiver and want to make sure it has sufficient power . i don't require it to play extremely loud but want enough to bring out the best in the speakers. thanks
Just about any reciever made these days can output 100 watts and that is plenty of power for the SongTowers. They are an easy load for just about any amp.
I usually don't like to make amp recommendations since everyone has their own personal favorites. But I have found Panasonic digital recievers do quite a good job for the money. I don't know what their current model is, but I think it is the XR57. Don't be fooled by the low price. These do a great job for the money.
- Jim
I was looking back through some old threads and ran across this one. It has some good info containing Song Towers for HT and power requirements.
(Actually, what got me looking through threads is that I've seen that a few people this year have ordered the Cherry veneer and I was looking for delivered pics and haven't found any from some here.So if you have pics let see them!)
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Paoli Dad,
Seeing how you're 80% home theater, if I were you I'd forgo the center channel issues (whether to get one or not) and get a subwoofer instead (for now). The ST's will work great in a "phantom mode," as that's how I am currently running them. Will I get the matching center? Heck yes, but it's more for those sitting off-axis than anything. But the subwoofer - now that's very important in my opinion. You get the "full" experience and will be taking some strain off your amps if you cross the ST's over.
I am sure War Of the Worlds is just great with the SongTower's alone, but when paired with a subwoofer you're transported to the action as if you're there, seeing and feeling all of it (just watch the pod emerge scene). Since your mostly HT, I'd recommend talking the wife into letting you add a subwoofer, even if it's a "small" one.
Just my $0.02.
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How come nobody listens to 2 channel music with only one speaker? To me that's the equivelent to listening to HT with only a single pair of mains. I fully understand the OP's situation, & it sounds like the Song Towers would perform superbly for his needs. They get great reviews that are off the charts & they were just written about in a speaker shootout that Audioholics had. They pretty much walked away with all the medals!!! :thumb:
I don't know, maybe it's just me but when I hear guys say how well their HT sounds with only running the mains, I have to scratch my head in amazement. There is just so much more audio information which to me translates into enjoyment when you incorporate a center, sub, & surrounds. We go to the ends of the earth to get our 2 channel rigs to perform audio nirvana, yet take a hugh step backwords when it comes to HT.
To each his own, but I place the same importance on both audio venues. I think I might just try 2 channel with one speaker to see how I like it. :green:
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Well said. HT=Multichannel Audio + Video.
Its like going to the cinema and hearing only the center channel, like they do with the commercials before the movie...then when the previews start and all the surround channels kick in, its like night and day.
:thumb:
How come nobody listens to 2 channel music with only one speaker? To me that's the equivelent to listening to HT with only a single pair of mains. I fully understand the OP's situation, & it sounds like the Song Towers would perform superbly for his needs. They get great reviews that are off the charts & they were just written about in a speaker shootout that Audioholics had. They pretty much walked away with all the medals!!! :thumb:
I don't know, maybe it's just me but when I hear guys say how well their HT sounds with only running the mains, I have to scratch my head in amazement. There is just so much more audio information which to me translates into enjoyment when you incorporate a center, sub, & surrounds. We go to the ends of the earth to get our 2 channel rigs to perform audio nirvana, yet take a hugh step backwords when it comes to HT.
To each his own, but I place the same importance on both audio venues. I think I might just try 2 channel with one speaker to see how I like it. :green:
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Easy guys! This thread was from a year ago. I thought the phantom center was a good topic and I wanted folks to see that Jim Salk mentioned that most any of today's receivers with 100 watts per channel would easily power the Song Towers because so many seem to think that they NEED all this power.
I did not intend for everyone to jump on the no sub comment. When I had the Axiom system here I often turned the sub on and off during movies to see the difference. I really loved the sub on movies but if I had a pair of good full range towers I could definitely wait patiently for the time when I could add a sub. I recommend to people all the time to spend the money on good towers now rather then to get a full system for the same money.
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Easy guys! This thread was from a year ago. I thought the phantom center was a good topic and I wanted folks to see that Jim Salk mentioned that most any of today's receivers with 100 watts per channel would easily power the Song Towers because so many seem to think that they NEED all this power.
I did not intend for everyone to jump on the no sub comment. When I had the Axiom system here I often turned the sub on and off during movies to see the difference. I really loved the sub on movies but if I had a pair of good full range towers I could definitely wait patiently for the time when I could add a sub. I recommend to people all the time to spend the money on good towers now rather then to get a full system for the same money.
It all depends on what you want and how loud you listen. You room size also plays a role. 100 watts is a safe bet, sure, but it may not be for everyone. It will always depend on the details of one's setup. After all, transients can easily make an amp of 100 wpc clip if the circumstances are right.
Your comment about getting a good set of fronts is a good one. A solid 2.1 setup will beat a mediocre 5.1 setup every time. Also, a subwoofer is a must for HT and smart for music, IMO. It's a fact that the ideal location of your speakers for great imaging and a wide sound stage probably won't be the best spot for in-room bass response. That's why adding a subwoofer (or two or three) is the way to go. It will allow you to get the best of both worlds and have a very linear in-room frequency response.
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I've been fooling around with multichannel audio for a a good number of years.
What I settled on is:
For music-
Two channel
CDP or MacBook, DAC, integrated tube amp, speakers set with slight ~4/6 degrees of toe in, plus sub from the integrated's sub out
Multi-channel music-
Same CDP or MacBook, into DAC, into McCormack MAP-1 that either inputs 5.1 analogue or 2 channel analog and via an analog circuit converts 2 channel into 4.1 or 5.1 or 6 channel, left and right front signals into tube integrated, left and right rear signal into 50wpc Llano mono-blocks, into speakers with same ~4/6 degrees of toe in, plus sub a above
Multi-channel movies-
Just like multichannel music except I often will run 5.1 analog inputs keeping the McCormack set to "none" regarding the center channel. This allows me to use the .1 LFE channel just like the movie mixing guy intended. And for whatever reason a lot more toe in(maybe ~25/27 degrees) seems to help with move soundtracks. I think the issue is I listen to music by myself 95% of the time and a smaller sweet spot is fine. When spinning movies sometimes my entire family is in the room - so the greater toe in likely yielding a much larger semi-sweet spot.
I've experimented with center channel speakers. My conclusion is that using a CC, in my rig in my room to my ears, is slightly better for movies and way worse, literally distracting, for music. So I do not use one.
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I'm looking into the DIY Rhythmic subs and this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65525.0
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I'm looking into the DIY Rhythmic subs and this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65525.0
Fantastic subwoofer for the money, bud. Check out our South East Wisconsin Subwoofer GTG thread at AVS and you'll get a lot of feedback on it. In short, exlcuding ridiculous output, the Rythmik stayed on pace with the much more expensive JL Audio Fathom 112. Very impressive!
Also, before you purchase a Rythmik (if you do), talk to Jim. ;) Oh, and go with the 15"!
Here is the thread start where people begin posting impressions:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1111483&page=8
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Him I'll be able to tell you in a few weeks the difference between the phantom and actual center. I have been running a pair of ST without the center, and my ST center will be here in a few weeks. It sounds pretty good without the center now, so I am hoping it sounds awesome with the center. I will say that I am running a JL Audio F113 now, which I think has absolutely improved HT, and improves some types of music. For me, rock like U2 and Cold play is better with the sub, but vocal driven stuff is only marginally improved. And the improvement from the sub is only on high volumes.
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Paoli Dad,
Seeing how you're 80% home theater, if I were you I'd forgo the center channel issues (whether to get one or not) and get a subwoofer instead (for now). The ST's will work great in a "phantom mode," as that's how I am currently running them. Will I get the matching center? Heck yes, but it's more for those sitting off-axis than anything. But the subwoofer - now that's very important in my opinion. You get the "full" experience and will be taking some strain off your amps if you cross the ST's over.
I am sure War Of the Worlds is just great with the SongTower's alone, but when paired with a subwoofer you're transported to the action as if you're there, seeing and feeling all of it (just watch the pod emerge scene). Since your mostly HT, I'd recommend talking the wife into letting you add a subwoofer, even if it's a "small" one.
Just my $0.02.
Nuance,
Are you running ST-RTs? This thread has me thinking I could buy the Ribbon Tweeter version of the SongTowers and get away with running them in "phantom mode." I have the same problem as others here, WAF is a major factor, as I have the TV in the living room. I also have the worlds dumbest TV stand - the upper shelf has about 6.5" of clearance. And even if Jim could build a squashed SongCenter, I'd still have to deal with my better half. I am also predicting no subwoofer in my future... but you never know!
-Kevin
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[/quote]
Nuance,
Are you running ST-RTs? This thread has me thinking I could buy the Ribbon Tweeter version of the SongTowers and get away with running them in "phantom mode." I have the same problem as others here, WAF is a major factor, as I have the TV in the living room. I also have the worlds dumbest TV stand - the upper shelf has about 6.5" of clearance. And even if Jim could build a squashed SongCenter, I'd still have to deal with my better half. I am also predicting no subwoofer in my future... but you never know!
-Kevin
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Should the ribbon tweeter be any better as a phantom center than the dome tweeter?
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Nuance,
Are you running ST-RTs? This thread has me thinking I could buy the Ribbon Tweeter version of the SongTowers and get away with running them in "phantom mode." I have the same problem as others here, WAF is a major factor, as I have the TV in the living room. I also have the worlds dumbest TV stand - the upper shelf has about 6.5" of clearance. And even if Jim could build a squashed SongCenter, I'd still have to deal with my better half. I am also predicting no subwoofer in my future... but you never know!
-Kevin
Should the ribbon tweeter be any better as a phantom center than the dome tweeter?
Jim might have numbers to share for off-axis frequency response, which I thought were different between the two tweeters. But, really, I wouldn't mind hearing the opinion of an ST-RT owner going without a center channel speaker.
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Nuance,
Are you running ST-RTs? This thread has me thinking I could buy the Ribbon Tweeter version of the SongTowers and get away with running them in "phantom mode." I have the same problem as others here, WAF is a major factor, as I have the TV in the living room. I also have the worlds dumbest TV stand - the upper shelf has about 6.5" of clearance. And even if Jim could build a squashed SongCenter, I'd still have to deal with my better half. I am also predicting no subwoofer in my future... but you never know!
-Kevin
Should the ribbon tweeter be any better as a phantom center than the dome tweeter?
Jim might have numbers to share for off-axis frequency response, which I thought were different between the two tweeters. But, really, I wouldn't mind hearing the opinion of an ST-RT owner going without a center channel speaker.
Well, the dome tweeter is going to have slightly better dispersion. But the LCY tweeter happens to have exelent dispersion in its own right. Since you would not likely be seated that far off-axis in a home theater situation, I don't think off-axis tweeter response is at all an issue. Either version would perform very well in this situation.
- Jim
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Nuance,
Are you running ST-RTs? This thread has me thinking I could buy the Ribbon Tweeter version of the SongTowers and get away with running them in "phantom mode." I have the same problem as others here, WAF is a major factor, as I have the TV in the living room. I also have the worlds dumbest TV stand - the upper shelf has about 6.5" of clearance. And even if Jim could build a squashed SongCenter, I'd still have to deal with my better half. I am also predicting no subwoofer in my future... but you never know!
-Kevin
Yup, and I also run them in phantom mode. They sound great!
Like Jim said, if you plan on sitting off-axis, you'll notice a difference, and I think you'll miss the center channel, as that is what helps the dialog remain in the center (no pun intended). However, if it's just you and the misses you should be able to get away without it.
I'll be ordering a SongCenter this year, but I just haven't figured out whether to pop the extra for the ribbon (to achieve a seamless timbre match) or just go with the dome. Decisions, decisions...
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When you say you "run in phantom mode", is there a setting in your receiver/processor or do you mean you just don't have a center hooked up? Not familiar with all the settings in the latest gear. I'm currently using an Onkyo 803 receiver from probably 4 years ago into an Outlaw 7125 amp and pretty sure I don't have any "phantom" settings.
I've been saving up for some Salk speakers and my plan was to get a pair of ST's and a SongCenter. Been rethinking this lately as I've gotten heavily into 2-channel music again after discovering the beauty of vinyl. Now I'm debating NOT getting a center and putting the money towards a 2nd pair of Salks for a 2nd room.
[/quote]
Yup, and I also run them in phantom mode. They sound great!
Like Jim said, if you plan on sitting off-axis, you'll notice a difference, and I think you'll miss the center channel, as that is what helps the dialog remain in the center (no pun intended). However, if it's just you and the misses you should be able to get away without it.
I'll be ordering a SongCenter this year, but I just haven't figured out whether to pop the extra for the ribbon (to achieve a seamless timbre match) or just go with the dome. Decisions, decisions...
[/quote]
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When you say you "run in phantom mode", is there a setting in your receiver/processor or do you mean you just don't have a center hooked up? Not familiar with all the settings in the latest gear. I'm currently using an Onkyo 803 receiver from probably 4 years ago into an Outlaw 7125 amp and pretty sure I don't have any "phantom" settings.
There is no Phantom mode in my receiver (Onkyo 805). I just run without a center, so all the information that would be sent to the center gets spread out before the mains. Like I said, it sounds great when sitting in or near the sweet spot. I will be getting a center channel down the road, though, as well as the matching SongSurround rears.
Hmm...a center or another pair of ST's? Now THAT is a tough decision.
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When you say you "run in phantom mode", is there a setting in your receiver/processor or do you mean you just don't have a center hooked up? Not familiar with all the settings in the latest gear. I'm currently using an Onkyo 803 receiver from probably 4 years ago into an Outlaw 7125 amp and pretty sure I don't have any "phantom" settings.
There is no Phantom mode in my receiver (Onkyo 805). I just run without a center, so all the information that would be sent to the center gets spread out before the mains. Like I said, it sounds great when sitting in or near the sweet spot. I will be getting a center channel down the road, though, as well as the matching SongSurround rears.
Hmm...a center or another pair of ST's? Now THAT is a tough decision.
My issue is that I will be moving from OH to OR in the fall and have no idea what my house will be like. As hard as it is for me to be sitting on all this money right now, I'm trying to be smart and wait until we buy a house before deciding what I want for sure. I thought about 2 pair of speakers for 2 different rooms and no center. Or getting 3 Song Surround I's to go with my sub for HT and use the ST's for music in another room. Music is more important to me than HT, but if we end up in a smaller house I may be forced to have one in the same.
I hate the idea of investing a lot of dough into speakers because I'm antsy and find out that they aren't right for my application in 6 months. I'm happy to see many comments from folks who aren't using a center. That keeps the option of doing that alive. I could even follow your lead and potentially add a center in time if needed.
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I hate the idea of investing a lot of dough into speakers because I'm antsy and find out that they aren't right for my application in 6 months. I'm happy to see many comments from folks who aren't using a center. That keeps the option of doing that alive. I could even follow your lead and potentially add a center in time if needed.
That would be the way to go. Get a nice pair of mains for now and start enjoying the music. Wait till you move to figure out your next move.
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That would be the way to go. Get a nice pair of mains for now and start enjoying the music. Wait till you move to figure out your next move.
[/quote]
+1
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When you say you "run in phantom mode", is there a setting in your receiver/processor or do you mean you just don't have a center hooked up? Not familiar with all the settings in the latest gear. I'm currently using an Onkyo 803 receiver from probably 4 years ago into an Outlaw 7125 amp and pretty sure I don't have any "phantom" settings.
I've been saving up for some Salk speakers and my plan was to get a pair of ST's and a SongCenter. Been rethinking this lately as I've gotten heavily into 2-channel music again after discovering the beauty of vinyl. Now I'm debating NOT getting a center and putting the money towards a 2nd pair of Salks for a 2nd room.
Yup, and I also run them in phantom mode. They sound great!
Like Jim said, if you plan on sitting off-axis, you'll notice a difference, and I think you'll miss the center channel, as that is what helps the dialog remain in the center (no pun intended). However, if it's just you and the misses you should be able to get away without it.
I'll be ordering a SongCenter this year, but I just haven't figured out whether to pop the extra for the ribbon (to achieve a seamless timbre match) or just go with the dome. Decisions, decisions...
[/quote]
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My pioneer vsx 92 has an option that allows you to define which speakers in a 7.2 set-up are actually operational, so I think its sends the signals to they speakers that defined as functional. I have the ST RT, and operated without a center or backs for about 3 months. I added a sub about a month and a half ago, so it was ST and the sub only. This set up was fantastic. I just got the Song center however, re-ran the pioneer set-up to add the center and it is now phenomenal. The center is a dome and I do not see how the ribbon on the center would improve anything, especially HT. Getting the backs installed will make it even better, so thats the next step. For those conteplating center or phantom, I think get the center if HT is important. It will always improve the experience regardless of what kind of room you have or will have. The immersive qualities with music are just great.