AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: jrhanl on 15 Sep 2006, 03:00 am
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Background: I wanted a cheap entry into the SET sound (with my XRS), so I purchased this DARED amp off of EBAY. The recent 6 Moons reviews of DARED tamed my anxiety over buying a strange brand. So I took the plunge.
I have only listened for several hours...so please don't take this as a thorough review. But, I thought it worthwhile to capture that pure, initial joy.
For context, I have been listening to my XRSs with a Super-T for several weeks (and before that the Super-T was powering Klipsch RB-35s). Both Super-T based systems sounded great. But the first few moments with this DARED SET struck with the force of revelation. No exaggeration. Everything I played in my initial listen sounded absolutely gorgeous. From WILCO's Yankee Hotel Foxtrot to Bruckner's 7th Symphony (Von Karajan conducting)....beautiful.
Anyway, I am absolutely amazed. Additionally, I braced myself for weak bass through the SET (I have read numerous forums with posts conveying weak bass as a SET handicap. To my surprise the DARED's bass far surpassed that of the Super-T. Whereas the Super-T's bass sounded bland and non-descript, the DARED was rich, tight and musical. By musical I mean I could hear the belly of Yo Yo Ma's/du Pre's cello resonating deeply in the lowest registers. It was stunning.
I will follow up in several weeks after a more thorough listen.
But if a newbie (or someone with limited disposable income) with the Super 3 family wants a taste of SET, this combo works. My initial impression undoubtedly sounds naive...and well, it is. But I trust my ears. My reference isn't necessarily a high-end system; it's the Boston Symphony Orchestra playing in Symphony Hall :wink: or a Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups though a VOX. In short, I love good tone...and my new amp/speaker combo certainly has it.
Hope this post benefits someone.
Gushing over.
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"my initial impression sounds naieve..."
If it sounds good, it IS good. :thumb:
2A3 + single driver. A guaranteed success every time. Glad you are happy. The Dared stuff is supposed to be getting much better, and the 2A3 triode circuit is just plain simple, very hard to get wrong. Let us know how things go.
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Welcome to the wonderful world of SET's and single (high efficiency) drivers. :thumb:
Now that we've got our hooks in you, you'll never look at solid state (or digital) and low efficiency speakers the same way again. As great as classical sounds, just wait until you start rolling through your female vocal and jazz collections. You'll be in heaven, I promise. :green:
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You're right! Even after this initial taste, I know there's no going back...seriously.
I've read that Jazz and female vocals are sublime through SET amps.. I look forward to listening to both categories, though admittedly I am not a huge jazz fan. I'm learning to appreciate it though (my wife plays saxophone and thinks I'm seriously deprived for not "getting" jazz).
For the longest time, I steered clear of SET amps because I read over and over that they excelled with jazz and other intimate formats...and I reasoned that they, therefore, reproduced orchestral music poorly.
That's why I spun the Bruckner right away. Just to see how the amp would deal with a brass crescendo. It was beautiful.
That said, the smaller scale ensembles I did play were mind-blowing. Tin Hat Trio's Book of Silk (I don't know what category this music is...otherworldly?) was startlingly.
I'm thrilled. What a discovery.
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Is this the Dared amp (http://gon5.audiogon.com/i/a/f/1139885320.jpg) you bought....thanks. 8)
Enjoy the tunes...... :thumb:
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Lonewolfny42,
Yes, that's the one. DARED seems to have several models which use the same chassis with different tubes. The model I got was the MP 2A3C.
Fit and finish is excellent. I was holding my breath until I got the amp (so many unknowns...) Delighted so far.
I have no idea what's going on inside this amp. My understanding of electrical engineering is on a 2nd grade level (or thereabouts) so I can't offer much input on the guts of the amp.
My heart was set on a Don Garber FI X / Y system (I love artisan/crafted products). Alas, I would have had to save for another year or so. So much missed listening time! So I plunged for the cheaper imported SET.
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I've seen past Dared products on Ebay...always looked interesting...low price. Newer stuff looks alot better....but I've not heard one.
With the Omega's you can't go wrong....glad the Dared is working for you.
I got the photo off Audiogon... (http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?ampstube&1158458352)...there's an auction for one.
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I dismissed the DARED stuff for a long time. The 6moons reviews bolstered my confidence in the product. The audiogon seller is the same guy I bought mine from I think. Maybe he alternates ebay and audiogon...because I won the most recent e-bay auction.
Anyway this model is claimed to put out 8W per channel. My general understanding was that 3.5 watts was normal for a 2a3 tube. The 2a3C tubes apparently work with a higher current than normal. I am wondering if that's why I am hearing stronger bass and dynamics than I anticipated.
I just thought the 8W power rating was interesting.
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Does it sound loud enough for your needs ?
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Jrhanl,
Congratulations on finding the combo that sings music to your ears. How beautiful that Dared amp with the 2A3 bottles on it.
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Lonewolfny42,
I only have a few hours of listening time, and haven't tried to push the volume. That said, I don't think volume will be a problem.
The amp has a little "magic eye" tube that functions as a kind of db meter. On the Bruckner, I turned the volume to 12 o'clock, and the magic eye starting closing in during the huge swells in the symphony, but it didn't come near to clipping. And I had to lunge for the volume knob. It was inappropriately loud for an apartment. And I'm sure my neighbors weren't as excited about my listening session as I was.
For Rock (Wilco, Mark Knopfler) and small ensembles I barely had to push the amp before things got too big. I was very surprised. I can't imagine needing more power with the pair of XRSs.
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I only have a few hours of listening time, and haven't tried to push the volume. That said, I don't think volume will be a problem.
Then it's perfect for you....nice !! Thanks for posting the info jrhanl !!! :thumb:
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Hi Jrhanl,
Many thanks for the wonderful post and so happy you’re enjoying your Dared 2A3. I have a dealer in Spain who sells a lot of them and he loves the combo. Gives me great feedback regarding the combinations he puts together. They look great too. I do have a Fi and this is amazing too.
Thanks again,
Louis
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I saw this link on the interesting Dared pages:
http://www.daredtube.com/pages/ampfile%20list.HTM
In it, a rare attempt is made to find logic in the association between measured data for amplifiers and subjective sound quality. It has been pointed out before that there seems to be very little in the way of correlation between the two, suggesting that either the wrong things are being measured, or the results are being mis-interpreted.
Some of this is, frankly, beyond me. It is interesting to note that an amp that does very well according to the criteria outlined in this paper is the Cary CAD 805 monoblock that was the subject of the famous 1994 Stereophile cover showing it and a Krell, saying, famously, "If one of these amps is right, the other is wrong!"
Of course, the Dared is mentioned more or less in the same breath.
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SET tube amplifiers that are well executed allow so much of what is "inside" the music to come
through that it takes ones listening experiences to an entirely different level of intoxication ~
It may be... that the magic of SET's can be fully appreciated only after years of searching
for the "new"... then one hears what a well executed SET and wide-range single driver speaker
sounds like and something extraordinary is revealed to the mind... and the search for magic ends
there... with this intoxicating combination ~
Then questions of media are no longer relevant... the simple CD, if it is not a blatant example of
seriously poor engineering, sounds so thrilling and real that one can relax about that search as
well ~
I would like to share a thought with everyone about various forms of music... including Jazz...
Once one's audio is operating on the very high level of an SET and single driver speaker
combination, the INTELLIGENCE of the music can be released... the inner-dimension of that intelligence
is released and it is this sense of that intelligence that allows us to make a connection with the INTENT
of the musicians and/or composers... no matter what form they are "speaking" in ~
It is that releasing of the inner-intelligence that allows us to "hear" the mystery of that special
language that is music's alone... its ability to lift us out of the mundane into an entirely different
level of feeling... music releases our potential for feeling human ~
And least we forget... music was once a Shamanic doorway to dimensions of "seeing" that we
no longer practice... because of our over-estimation of what linear thinking has the potential
to teach us ~
Warm Regards ~ Richard ~
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Richard
You should be our poet laureate on AC! You write so well and simply have a knack of encapsulating sublime emotions!
I have a Cary 300SEI that seems to be collecting dust at the moment. I have just vicariously discovered the wonderful world of SETs and single-drivers. Who knows, I might just bite the bullet and go for Louis' Omega XRS. Only concern I have are the paper cones. In Singapore, where I hail, humidity levels are perpetually in the 90s and mould and mildew is a great worry! I once owned Audionote's AN-E/Spx but the paper cones were soon covered with mould and the soft foam surround literally disintegrated!
Till this day, I am still yearning for that magical sound which all you guys are now experiencing!
Denjo
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Richard,
I agree with Denjo. You have a way with articulating the further reaches of human experience (and I do believe that mere listening can be a further reach...)
I also agree that my recent pairing of SET with the single driver XRS' has pulled my attention from irritation with gear inadequecy and refocused it on music.
Sure, I am still excited about audio stuff/things/tweaks, but now in the context of bliss. Any mindless consumerism is over...it's all about discovery and rediscovery of great music for me...and sharing those discoveries with others...
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aa(http://)
I PURCHASED A PAIR OF THE OMEGA SUPER ALNICOS FROM AUDIOGON AND HAVE BEEN USING A DRAED 300B TUBE MONOBLOCKS, I HAVE SEVERAL SOLID STATE INCLUDING PROCEED, CARVER AND KRELL AND THE LITTLE 9WPC DAREDS BLOW THEM AWAY ON THE OMEGAS AND SEVERAL OTHERS I HAVE HAD. I AM RUNNING A SACD AND TRANSPORT/DAC DIRECTLY INTO THE DAREDS SINCE THE HAVE VOLUME CONTROL AND THE SOUND IS JUST SPOOKY! I MOVED FROM CONNECTICUIT LAST YEAR OR ELSE I WOULD RUN DOWN TO LOUIS AND CONGRATULATE HIM!!!
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Hi all,
Great topic and I agree as well. I've heard amps that measured bad sound great and In this area I kinda don't pay any attention to it. It really comes down to how it sounds to you. If it sounds great in your room that's what's important.
Hi denjo,
In your climate I would definitely coat the drivers and this should be perfectly fine.
Thanks again,
Louis
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I've been toying with the idea of trying out tube power for my XRSs. Can anyone give me a general idea of how the rising impedance (at higher frequencies) of the Fostex driver will affect the frequency response of a typical tube amp?
Thanks!
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Hi Toobwacky ~
I hope this doesn't sound a bit simplistic... but is your question based on the fact that you do not
currently have a tube amp and so you are curious as to which tube amp would work best with
your XRS Omega speakers?
I am asking that question because by your AC name, Toobwacky, I would have guessed that you
are somewhat ga ga over tubes (Deb and I certainly are) and so would have a few varieties of tube
amps around that you could use to test for an appropriate synergy with your XRS's ~
Warm Regards ~ Richard ~
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Once one's audio is operating on the very high level of an SET and single driver speaker
combination, the INTELLIGENCE of the music can be released... the inner-dimension of that intelligence
is released and it is this sense of that intelligence that allows us to make a connection with the INTENT
of the musicians and/or composers... no matter what form they are "speaking" in ~
Hi Richard,
You really hit upon something there. When I first got into SET's, I was mainly into Rock and Jazz. For the longest time I'd been trying without any luck to wrap my mind around orchestral music. After I'd had my 2A3 and Lowthers mated for a while I decided to give some classical music a spin. Guess what.....it all made sense. I can't phathom a guess as to why, other than the simple fact of coheirency. There is truely something right about an SET amplifier and single driver speakers. There is nothing to get in the way of the music, no crossovers, less than about 8 parts in the amplifier signal circuit, its just plain simple.
And for anybody reading this, don't dismiss this thinking that the SET/single driver crowd is some sort of audio whacko's cuz it ain't so. Sure, every single ended triode amplifier in the work (without feedback) measures horribly. Most of them are running between 5 and 10% distortion at full output (at 1k). But that really doesn't tell the true story. We don't normally run our amps at full output. Most of the time we spend at the lower half of the volume scale where the amps are running about 1% distortion or less. This (of course) providing you have sufficiently efficient speakers.
Guys like JA at SP can measure these things all they want, they'll tell you they measure worse than anything on the market but they just don't get it. I've convinced myself it's because they don't own a good pair of hi-eff, single driver speakers to mate them to. Whats worse is the guys that try to mate SETs to low efficiency speakers and expect them to work. Then they tell their tales and reinforce the (supposed) fact that SETs are rotten.
Man oh man, when you mate an SET to the right speakers its like you'd died and gone to musical heaven. There is nothing like it on the planet, honest.
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Hi Toobwacky ~
I hope this doesn't sound a bit simplistic... but is your question based on the fact that you do not
currently have a tube amp and so you are curious as to which tube amp would work best with
your XRS Omega speakers?
I am asking that question because by your AC name, Toobwacky, I would have guessed that you
are somewhat ga ga over tubes (Deb and I certainly are) and so would have a few varieties of tube
amps around that you could use to test for an appropriate synergy with your XRS's ~
Warm Regards ~ Richard ~
Hello Richard... Yes, my name notwithstanding, I am tube deprived at the present time :cry:
Anyway, the XRS is my first (and last :D) single driver system & I'm wondering (hoping) that its rising impedance at higher frequencies won't result in rolled-off highs when mated with a typical tube amp. Right now I'm looking at buying a SE amp, but, living in the hinterlands as I do, won't have the chance to audition it before purchase.
Can anybody share some general thoughts on the Fostex impedance interaction with a tube amp?
Thanks!
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Hi denjo ~ it seems that Louis is giving his blessing for you to coat his/your paper cone speakers
with some form of varnish in order to help them to survive in your moist climate... you already have
the Cary 300SEI... so all you need now is your single-driver-wide-range speaker to bring back
the magic you know is there... perhaps Louis can coat his drivers for you if you purchase a pair of
speakers from him... I would pursue that inquiry with him and see what he says!!!!!!!
Hi jrhanl ~ you are part of a small but sensitive group of cognoscente that understand the magic
of a well executed SET and single-driver-wide-range speakers... simplicity is not yet a paradigm
that has currency in our society... we are a society that is still in the throes of guzzling billions
of gallons of oil per day and think nothing of continuing the philosophy that the earth has
abundant resources to fill our insatiable appetites for "the more"... and so we apply that thinking
to everything... including audio ~
Scott F. ~ You bring up so many important points... the essential circuitry of the very simple SET
tube amp was formalized in the late 1920's and has not changed substantially since then. Meanwhile
the ascendency of technology as problem solving devices has exploded into our lives with
unprecedented speed... so fast in fact that we have not even barely begun to assess the impact
it is having on our lives... for example one could legitimately ask the question: if the computer
does everything better than we do... who needs us? That question will reach a crescendo very
soon and we will not like the answer... and least we forget... every technology that has been
born of good intentions almost immediately finds it way into the military as a killing and controlling
machine... death flows from the laboratory and shatters us ~
The pressure to find and implement new technologies is nothing less than a kind of lust, like
the gold-rush in America in the 1890's. So to ask someone to "return" to a technology that
appears to be spent, out-dated, and used-up to reproduce one's home audio seems to defy
our collective intelligence... and then there is the problem of a certain inconvenience in having
to "care for" the tubes and perhaps others issues such as biasing (admittedly some designs
have opted for self-biasing designs, and Roger Modjeski's SET amps, one of which I am using,
his new 245.1/45 SET tube amp, uses a devastatingly clever and simple method of adjusting
the red light of LED lenses in front of each 45 output tube to match the "pilot" On light) and
the need to re-tube your amp every blue moon or so ~
So the technology may be approached by the average audio enthusiast with a certain mistrust...
how can that old-timey technology really work in the face of all that innovation that has taken place?
there is also the subtle psychological idea that suggests "my times are more important and interesting
than grandfathers time" and so on ~
I think it is the reemergence of the single-extended range-high efficiency driver that has helped set
the stage for the come-back of the simple low watt SET tube amp... once one hears this combination,
the search for musical nirvana ends... and one's listening life takes on a totally different dimension ~
But before that can take place one must be able to detach themselves from the search of the
new... and place ones considerable energies for the search of the extraordinary ~
Louis Chochos is leading the movement of the single-extended range-high efficiency speaker
revolution... and his prices are exceedingly fair... I count Louis as a dear friend because he is
always available and extremely generous with his suggestions, information and help... I own
a pair of Bipoles... and I am looking forward to slipping in Louis's new Hemp 4.5" drivers,
once Louis is able to make them available... Bravo Louis!!!!! may the audio gods forever favor
you with their blessings!!!!
Warm Regards ~ Richard ~
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"Can anybody share some general thoughts on the Fostex impedance interaction with a tube amp?"
Nevermind... I took the plunge and bought a mint Dynaco SCA-35 off ebay. Woohoo! :thumb:
It's not a SET & I'm veering WAY OT here, but I can't wait to get her & see how she stacks up against my Audio Analogue SS amp.
More later....
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As a very satisfied use of a broadband single driver, and a single ended Pentode amp, I reflect positively on what Richard is suggesting - there is magic in my 45-50 year old Magnavox amp, and the b200 Visaton driver, that has returned my satisfaction!
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Richard:
Thank you once again for a brilliant post that gets to the heart (at least for me) of the experience that is music.
After spending years in the "critical listening" camp, where everything is quantified and analyzed, it is refreshing to be re-connecting with the experiential aspect of music that first called to me when I was a child.
It is the classic "heart versus mind" battle that manifests in every other aspect of this existence, no? The mind gets in the way of the experience itself, and (I feel) that this is the key difference between the "audiophiles" and the "music lovers". We music lovers don't care about specs.
The experiential cannot be quantified nor intellectualized.
I am grateful for people like Louis and Vinnie who are sharing their gifts and reveling in the irony.
After the numerous posts on my "best bang for buck amp" thread, I'm also convinced that a SET amp is on my horizon, in addition to my long-term plan of incorporating RWA battery power in my simple and beautiful system.
So, thanks once again,
Warmly,
Michael
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Hi Richard and Scott F,
Many thanks for the great posts and I agree 100%. I really don't let measurement of amps get in the way of what to buy. Let your ears decide and you will be much happier. I keep on saying this is a great time to be in Audio as the amount of great equipment out there at reasonable costs plus all the vintage gear. It's worth seeking out the smaller companies that are dedicated to music and not worth some specs to get in the way.
Congratulations toobwacky with your Dynaco purchase. I have the new version and it's a great match.
Also I would be happy to coat the Fostex drivers here at the shop. I do want to say it will change the color of the cone.
Thanks again,
Louis
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Louis,
I'm interested in coating my four Fostex drivers too but hesitate to ship them all the way from Washington State. Is the coating a process that I could perform safely myself ?
Royal
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~Richard~
Thanks for the heads up! I have only recently been acquainted with single driver speakers but I find the simplicity very attractive indeed - no crossover. The Hemps coated with varnish might just be the answer! I will do a little bit more due diligence before coming to a firm decision on the Omega Hemps.
Many thanks,
Best Regards
Dennis
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a small but sensitive group of cognoscente that understand the magic
of a well executed SET and single-driver-wide-range speakers... simplicity is not yet a paradigm
that has currency in our society... we are a society that is still in the throes of guzzling billions
of gallons of oil per day and think nothing of continuing the philosophy that the earth has
abundant resources to fill our insatiable appetites for "the more"... and so we apply that thinking
to everything... including audio ~
Brilliantly put.
Thanks.
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I was talking about this just last night with Louis, and he agreed it was possible there was also some sort of popular misconception relating to the whole flea amp/single speaker thang, that conjures up some sort of image of a pipe-smoking, pointy-headed audiophile type, sipping port, listening to the Juilliard Quartet, --type of adherent. We had a laugh. That wouldn't exactly describe adherents such as Louis, nor myself in any way. Especially Louis, and his Nine Inch Nails.
I also agree wholeheartedly with Richard's lament, and in the runaway SuperConsumer society, where simplicity is merely simple. Where, "elegance" is something vaguely vogue.
SuperConsumer: Someone who spends money they do not have, on items they do not need, to impress people they do not like." Habitat Range: USA.
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:scratch: Contra Intuitive Experience
The more I listen to Louis's speakers the more my belief is reinforced that while the Speakers sound terrific with low Watt Amps, they sound even better when fed more high quality Watts. I don't know why this is, there is no crossover, and the speakers present an easy load for an amplifier. Has anyone else had this experience? I am currently running the Omega Revolutions (Visaton B200 Driver) with either a Dual Mono RWA Clari-T (7 Watts) or a rebuilt Heath 151 (EL 84's running 7 Watts in pure Triode).
I don't know about 9 Inch Nails, but I play Chicago Blues (Muddy Waters, Howling Wolf, Koko Taylor etc.) and it sounds just fine. I know there is more, I just don't know why.
Any input is welcome and much appreciated.
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ZLS
If single ended triode sound came in 100 watt packages, that would be the amp. It is just that the Omega 8 speakers can get along fine with such small relative doses of current. I agree that when you give them more power, they REALLY open up; the Super Hemps do this with the Signature 30., which to me sounds closer to a single ended tube sound than ANY other solid state amp I have ever heard, and blows any solid state amp I have ever heard, into the weeds, especially with wideband drivers. Greater current, better speaker control, higher damping factor of solid state amps and push pull tube amps, all lend themselves to your observation.
The earlier comments were an indirect reference to the simplicity of single ended tube circuits, and the effect on the overall gestalt of the sound when combined with equally simple speaker systems. Hope this helps.
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Greater current, better speaker control, higher damping factor of solid state amps and push pull tube amps, all lend themselves to your observation.
And the extra power also translates into extra headroom that lets those musical peaks through unhindered. My Horn Shoppe horns and Abbys never sounded better than when driven by a Sophia EL34, and a Golden Tube Audio SE-40, as compared to an Audio Note Kit1, and another 8 watt PP tube amp -- with the exception of the fully modded Clari-T, which really did the trick for the Abbys.
I remember back in the 70s when I was in high school and would go down to the local high-end audio store to listen to the Klipschorns driven by a Mac 200-watt tube amp. I don't remember the model of the amp, but it had a pair of blue backlit power meters (not VU meters) on the front and you could clearly see that while the power levels for normal listening were on the order of tenths of a watt, the peaks could easily jump to 150 or 200, if even very briefly. And this was with a speaker rated at something like 104dB. So, when you're 1.5, 3.5, or 8 watt amp tries to play the same music through the same speakers, something has to give when those peaks come along, even though any of those amps would drive those speakers more than sufficiently well.
That said, I'm with you guys 100% on all of this and have a pair of the Sig 70s (in Louis's cabinets) and a pair of Revolutions on order, and I've sold off all the other equipment except the Clari-T and my CDP.
Sure would love to talk to more of you in person -- dmason, richard, zls, srayle, and others, and if you're coming to RMAF, maybe we can find some time to hang out? I've been reading the Dark Star thread, plus lots of others on this forum and RWA as well, and find you guys very tuned into much the same kinds of things as myself. Can't possibly get away with OBs in this house, but it's all really interesting nonetheless.
Keep the great discussions and comments flowing!
Jim
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Dmason – as I read your post above, I started laughing so hard that my pipe fell out of my mouth and scattered ashes all over my velveteen lounge robe! :lol:
I thought the post was so right on, at least from my own perspective. I am a lover of music first, and am not limited to a particular genre, and the LAST thing I want to do is to take myself too seriously.
Thanks for sharing!
I also share Richard’s perspective (at least what he’s offered of it) on the world and “society” in general. It is a paradox to walk that line of balance in this crazy, beautiful world of ours.
I think this particular thread is extremely helpful for those of us who are still “re-building” our music systems (or is it just me?) :wink:. In particular, the very real discussion of the benefit of a bit of dynamic power / muscle to really allow the system to sing (not that it is an ABSOLUTE requirement, mind you).
This certainly helps me to re-affirm my long-term focus of incorporating the RWA offerings into my own system, which is getting its start with a set of Louis's original compact hemptones. :singing:
I had decided early on to incorporate Omega and Red Wine in my new "simple" system – interestingly enough, my choice of RWA originally started as an effort to have a good music system in my (soon to be designed) Earth-friendly, off-the-grid home. I am trying my best to keep everything in the house as simple as possible, so the RWA gear is a godsend. Cheers, Vinnie! I could not have imagined such a magical solution to my dilemma. I had visions of making do with a jambox! :roll:
Great thread, and have fun at the show, for those who are fortunate enough to be going.
Warmly,
Michael
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"the peaks could easily jump to 150 or 200"...
My lord...and you were listening to...a concerto for jet turbine...perhaps? :P
I am wholly impressed with my 8W 2A3 set's ability to handle dynamic peaks. I have been shocked actually. During orchestral crescendos, I was expecting congestion, shrill break-ups etc, but that hasn't been the case. I am sure something in the way of acoustic info is compromised...but not that I can perceive. Tympani thwacks and brass demand power like nothing else...and even these tremendous spikes sound natural...I can feel the force of the air...even off the XRS' relatively small drivers.
In a larger room, at greater volumes any compromise would be more obvious, I am sure.
But the glory of the 8 watts of 2A3 with the XRS seems to be the ability to convey palpability, note-decay, and instrument timbre. My description feels very cold...and doesn't capture the experience at all...but I lack the vocab to express the set/single driver "gestalt of sound." In fact, I have yet to encounter a description of the SET-sound that captures the experience.
The combo just feels alive in the way a piano/violin/guitar with gorgeous tone feels alive. Perhaps the magic of set/single driver is simply the preservation of overtones/harmonic info.
Anyway, whatever shortcomings SET amps may traditionally have, I have fallen hard. My particular DARED 2A3 has impressed me massively. I am guessing the extra watts the engineers milked (8 vice 3.5) give the amp a not-so-SET like ballsiness.
All this said...I will soon be putting together a Charlize amp for my Klipsch RB 35 speakers. Cheap and easy...and reported to be good sounding...
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Hi jrhanl:
Great post.
Here's the "unspoken" part of my previous post.....
While the RWA offerings are in the long term plan, I'm actively seeking some used SET gear to relish until I'm off the grid - at least a few more years.........
I'm intrigued with the SET experience and am DEFINITELY going that direction until I can't feasibly do it any more.
You said it so well. "....I have yet to encounter a description of the SET-sound that captures the experience."
The fact that Vinnie's gear defies the normal limitations of the Solid State "experience" allows me to at least have a portion of the experience that the magical glowing tubes offer. :angel:
As far as the power requirements go, isn't it more about current than wattage anyway? I remember being blown away by the Naim NAP 120's - they gave some very demanding speakers EVERYTHING they demanded with room to spare, all from a very humble wattage rating. If memory serves, it was the massive transformer and its ability to crank out the current into low impedence loads during those peaks.
***I'm not talking about dB here (which I lknow is TIED to power output) - I'm talking about the ability of an amp to provide the full scale of the music within a given dB****
Is it possible that the SETs offer this capability (in addition, of course to the unquantifiable/inexplicable quality they have)?
Am I off here?
Anyway, as jrhanl has already alluded,
"who cares?" :dunno:
HAH - back to the music..........
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A few more points WRT SETs, speaker synergy, and dynamics.
I am thinking that the type of musical presentation you get also depends on SET output impedance, speaker Qts, speaker impedance vs freq, cabinet design, and damping requirements vs freq. I am no audio boffin, so I could be well of track...
The 104dB sensitive spk may have had some honking driver with a lot of impedance variation, shoved in a BR, and crossed over using some complex contrivance. Maybe it was being used in a huuuuge room. Maybe it was played at a volume considered for most of us. Maybe it needs that volume / power to sound alive and dynamic just overcome x-over inertia. Maybe the amp power meters were calibrated on the generous side for WOW factor... I don't think conclusions can be drawn from the info provided.
Yep, more power + lower output impedance will help control a driver - which is most relevant for drivers that need a whole lot of controlling - but what are you willing to sacrifice? Sure, all other things being equal, in most systems, more power + lower output impedance are helpful, but all other things are never equal.
Well designed and implemented SETs and single-driver speakers can make a good enough fist of dynamics, whilst doing some other things – often neglected by audiophiles but revered by music lovers – so remarkably well that they will be the holy grail for some. There are variations on the theme which could be the holy grail for many (most?)...
Oh, of course SETs and single-driver spks come in many varieties; just 'cause you have heard one does not mean you have heard them all.
Okay, jumping down from the soapbox... got to make tracks.
Cheers
Raymond
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It also seems that some tubes with higher Mu just have more balls, more grunt. The TV sweep tubes are ideal for music I have found, they were designed at the end of the tube era, fantastically well built, cheap as chalk, and are ruler flat from ~18-80KHz, --linear as hell and they had to be, or you would SEE it... for example, the 13EM7, a small "dissimilar triode" which electrically is a 6SL7 on one side, and identical to a 2A3 on the big side. What is this you ask? It is the tube complement for a well known and very sweet and musical 2A3 amp recipe, but using ONE $4 tube per side, and even with passable output transformers, has BASS. Not to mention the sparkle and swirl, and that somewhat elusive, ethereal quality that SET tubes add, that "cloud" that surrounds the speakers. These little tubes do SET bass better than ANY of the DHT variants I have played with. I believe they will have their day in the sun.
I have found far more variance in the SET + single driver thang than otherwise.
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Hey Dan, nice post re all SETs (and single driver 'speakers) not being created equal; hearing one does not equal hearing all.
Interesting comments regarding the 13EM7; electrically and sonically, I would think a 6SL7-section barely adequate for driving a 2A3-like section. I readily defer to your much greater experience tho. There must be some serious tube build superiority, implementation skill, and/or other factors at play to provide the mojo, especially in the bass, of which you speak. I guess one could use a mu out connection from a (very) good CCS to lower the driver impedance and give the 2A3-section the drive it needs... Not everyone loves a CCS tho. But hey, for $4, I may give this a shot. I am guessing the tubes would not be matched at that price. There are two sections that need close matching, tho even with paying extra for matching it would still be a good deal.
Personally, I feel that SET (as a broad topology) can offer a little more musical magic than the run-of-the-mill types (even the better ones) are currently providing; I think it amazing what could be achieved when one does not have to consider commercial constraints.
Cheers
Raymond
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I am thinking that the type of musical presentation you get also depends on SET output impedance, speaker Qts, speaker impedance vs freq, cabinet design, and damping requirements vs freq. I am no audio boffin, so I could be well of track...
Yes, sorry to imply that power, dynamic headroom, etc. are the answer -- they're not, they're just a part of it... probably.
I believe that our Newtonian approach to science in general leads us to put much more stock in our overly simple models of how things work and thus we expect them to predict outcomes based on measurements made with instruments based on these same models. Ohm's law, etc. are fine for calculating approximate real-world behaviors, but reality is far more complex than our overly simplistic models can even begin to predict.
I still have so many formally trained colleagues who swear that there is no possible way that different pieces of wire can sound different from each other -- wire is wire, and that is that. -- but the reality of it is that there *are* differences even if our working models can't tell us why yet. I do find it rather funny that none of these people will come over and let me switch a number of different speaker cables and ICs in and out of my system to let them hear the difference. In the speaker cable category alone I have had everything from a pair of DIY $30 cat-5 cables all the way to a $5,500 pair of Acapella Silverkables, and the difference is immediate and unmistakeable. Note that I do not in general think higher price necessarily means better performance because there are some incredible sounding cheap cables, and some lousy sounding expensive ones (just to be clear on that.)
So, I guess what I'm saying, and it's the same thing I think we're all saying, is that that there are combinations that work better than others (i.e., the importance of overall system synergy) and there is really no predicting that from numbers we measure with our very simplistic test equipment. Heisenberg, where are you when I need you?
Yes, the human ear and brain are far more sophisticated instruments than anything on anybody's test bench, and they are the ultimate arbiter anyway (at least as far as they convey the information to the mind for deeper processing. :).)
As one famous quantum physicist said to one of his classes, "Half of what we're teaching you is wrong -- we just don't know which half."
The 104dB sensitive spk may have had some honking driver with a lot of impedance variation, shoved in a BR, and crossed over using some complex contrivance. Maybe it was being used in a huuuuge room. Maybe it was played at a volume considered for most of us. Maybe it needs that volume / power to sound alive and dynamic just overcome x-over inertia. Maybe the amp power meters were calibrated on the generous side for WOW factor... I don't think conclusions can be drawn from the info provided.
The Klipsch K-Horn is a monster with a 15" woofer in a corner horn box (the driver is not exposed to the eye anywhere) and has a compression mid and tweeter and one huge mess of a crossover. So yes, this all adds up and partially attempts to explain the things I saw and heard. Hey, it was over 30 years ago too :).
In the end, I trust one thing, and one thing only -- my ears -- not merely as the physical instrument, but as the conduit to the emotional processing centers that exist somewhere between the brain and consciousness... but really, I just love to listen to good music... really.
You'll have to excuse me, I'm in transition as I withdraw from an overdose of audiophilia nervosa so please be patient with me as I relearn the differences between sound and music, and obsession and passion.
-- Jim
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Hi Jim - awesome post. Sounds like you have some sort of science or engineering background; I hear what you are saying re the western (Newtonian) approach to science; antiquated and limiting...
Now, the one-month Mx plan for Audiophillia nervosa:
- Do not research or contemplate audio system-related issues (sorry - no forum access reading / interaction)
- Rx - several new albums, administered tds. (3x/day) as a minimum
- Do not think critically about your music play-back system as you listen to music - listen to the music, not the system
- It may help to purposefully mess with one aspect of system fine tuning, eg. remove some tweaks. This is not a long-term intervention (and is easily reversed); it may just jolt you out of equipment perfectionist mode... think of it a non-invasive electrotherapy for AN.
I often find that not thinking about audio for a few weeks helps put things - not just audio - in perspective, kind of like going on an extended retreat... and I would hardly say I sufferred AN.
Best of fortune in your transition.
Raymond
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With the advent of the internet, cable bandwidth, and development of internet based audio boards, and portals, such as this august audience, I subsequently was diagnosed with a rather aggressive form of high-rotation audiophilia nervosa. All it did in retrospect was to provide a disjointed, highly revealing sound that didnt' appeal to me at all. With further tweaking, I discovered the more I removed, the better the result. Symptoms of AN decreased with increased simplification. The best sound I have found in Thermionia is the straight wire with gain, the SET, and in SS, the only design I like is the T amp, and only when battery powered.
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When I was a kid, and all my friends with part time jobs had their shiny Technics and Pioneer integrated amplifiers, cassette decks, AR8 speakers and so on, for those of you who remember the era, I had to make do using the 6550 based tube amplifier in my Hammond C3 organ, and the only decent speakers I had access to unfortunately, were a pair of Altec Voice of the Theaters, in the garage, which were used for a practice PA, by my progressive rock band. Not having the cash for a cassette deck, I had to resort to using a Thorens turntable provided me by a neighbor, who was sympathetic to my plight. By the time I was 17, I realized what I did NOT want to listen to. Those shiny integrateds sounded like shit overall, and I didnt at the time understand why, and didnt investigate it much other than conclude the good stuff had tubes. I actually managed to forget this important lesson for a time.
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Dan, you sure have a way with words... and using them to nail a point so well. Sweet intro.
Cheers
Raymond
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Audio seems to have taken the place of an actual search for something like spiritual resolution...
which in former generations consisted of a thorough break with the existing societies demands
for participating in the roles characterized by child rearing and intense productivity
for the simplicity of a contemplative life... an intensification of the awareness of ones inner life ~
Ordinarily an idea like this could be interpreted as an attempt to raise the rather suspicious hobby of
acquiring the more and the more onto a higher plane... a justification of sorts for ones
self-indulgence ~
I am referring to something quite different... I think there is a residue of yearning for something
ineffable... something that transcends the ordinary day to day world which for us in these times
has been scrubbed clean of the mysterious... science with its magic has replaced the magic of
religion... a necessary interlude in order to clean our house of the sickness and morbidity that
religions breed as they move deeper into the controlling mechanisms that in the past ruled our
lives through fear and horror ~
But science cannot yet touch the real mystery... there are abstractions operating that science in
its present form is too limited to grasp... but we feel them... just outside our rational paradigms
there are energetic dimensions that interact with us... our perceptual mechanisms of awareness
have been dulled by lack of use and an overemphasis on sensational data... data born solely of
the senses ~
Music was once a shamanic doorway to other dimensions of perception... for non-industrial,
simpler societies it still is... if one witnesses the participants in shamanic dancing and singing
it quite clear that this is a very serious, highly intense life and death struggle to move out from
the ordinary daily world into a dimension that is truly mysterious... where one meets something
that cannot yet be explained by our science... and then there is the frightful journey back to our
world which is bristling with the real possibility of death ~
Our music listening is like domesticated dogs hearing the howls of wolves or coyotes... something
in the domesticated dog is stirred to remembering their true nature... we are also stirred in a
similar way when hearing music to remember our shamanic inter-dimensional traveling ~
However only a residue of those feelings still exist for us in our present mode of perception...
still it is enough to create a haunting experience... something in us is stirred on a very deep
level... but it has been relegated to the sub-conscious order of attention... in the darkness it
dwells waiting for resolution ~
Our search for nirvana in audio is stirred by that sub-conscious yearning for contact with an
entirely different dimension of awareness... on the surface it appears like a neurotic habit
that once set in motion is somewhat self-perpetuating... I am suggesting that is goes much
deeper than that... we are searching for connection... and we search for it in the only pathway
that we think has legitimacy ~
Of course there is another aspect to ones audio search and that is the yearning for sexual
fulfillment... audio has been purposely tangled in the web of sexuality through clever advertising
just like many other products... however unlike "sexy" cars (for example) which suggest that one could
be more adept at acquiring pretty girls by the look and power of the automobile itself
(cars functioning as an icon for the erectile apparatus), audio functions as a "secret" hobby that
requires that men "stealthfully" slip their audio purchases past the attention of their wives...
audio functions here like pornography ~
Music is a call to the wild... a call to different levels of perception... we must await a time when
science either evolves past its current limited concepts of what constitutes our understanding
of the real... the underlying energetic order from which the real springs... or we must elect to
begin that search ourselves... using our lives as the laboratory ~
There is a great deal more to all this of course ~
Warm Regards ~ Richard ~
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Very well said, Richard and Dan.
Your posts offer a beneficial groundedness to these forums, and are always a pleasure (at least for me) to read.
Thank you.
Warmly,
Michael
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Hi rajacat,
It's easy to do and all you need is the Dammar and a couple of acid brushes or the small throw away bristle brushes. I coat them 6 times and make sure it dries before adding another. Don't get it on the surround, only the paper parts.
Hi Dennis,
About 5 or so years ago a pair of 6x9 Jensen's did it for me and it';s been single drivers ever since.
Thanks again,
Louis
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The Dared MP2A3c puts out 8 wpc.
I thought these 2a3 tubes only put out about 3.5 watts.
Is this a push pull design, or is the Shuguang tube used signficantly different than other 2a3?
I am looking for a reasonably priced 2a3 for my dad's Klipsch Cornwall speakers.
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Hi jrhanl,
Sorry for resurrecting this old thread, but it looks like you found a match made in heaven.
Which XRS speaker model are you referring to? Is it this one: http://omegaloudspeakers.com/super3xrs.html
Thanks!
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Hi MisterBill,
Yes that is the speaker being referred to. Though back in 2006 I believe it was using a Fostex driver. It has since updated to a hemp cone driver and currently is now using the RS5 driver designed by Omega. The newest driver is simply amazing. The Super 3XRS speakers are indeed pretty special.
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2a3 is my fav tube... try some jj 2a340's - well worth it
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Hi everyone!
Have any Omega speaker enthusiasts in this forum tried a TULIP MARK II DT STEREO AMPLIFIER?
any comments?
Thanks,
Dan
http://www.divertech.com/asltulip.html
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117673)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117673)