[low.pfile]

Hey Vinyl Veterans,

I'm new to vinyl (1 year+). I am seeing a trend that is scaring me: I am needing to buy more than one copy of an album, to get an acceptable version.

I've been listening to lots of my vinyl lately...I am now finding some less than acceptable. My collection, some dollar bin/used but some purchased at reputable places online with NM grade which look great, and unscratched,  but when played I am finding that they have lots of wear = surface noise and/or slight repetative clicks. Therefore,  I am considering buying another version of that album that  I want on vinyl. A few soft pops and clicks are fine. But, also, I just bought a sealed, new version of Gotan Project online and it is warped, that I will be returning. Of the few albums I have (60ish albums so far, 10 in the last month) I've already bought 3 replacement copies of albums. That trend is not something I am not looking forward to.

BTW I use a MoFi cleaners (regular and deep) and KAB vac cleaner so I get them pretty darn clean. Old records get a double or triple wash. And I have some bargin bin records that sound great.

So I am wondering how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop... Do all of you vinyl fanatics buy many copies to find the gem or buy only super mint?   

I really like the vinyl playback process and don't want to spend 1 hour "preparing" to play everytime I want to listen- to me, it ruins part of the experience.

cheers, ed

....going to listen to my new just arrived version of Band of Horses (that one may have been my fault, a scuff on inner tracks makes me think I was sloppy with handling the record)

[toocool4]

low.pfile it’s a difficult one to call but when I see 180g + vinyl that I have and like I often buy a new copy. The last one I picked up is Lalo Schifrin’s Enter The Dragon. I had a copy that I picked up from a second hand shop but when I saw a new copy while I was in Munich I picked it up and what a difference. The sound quality of the new one is amazing.

Don’t know too much about the record cleaner you use but I use Loricraft Audio PRC3 ( http://www.smartdevicesinc.com/loricraft.html ) which is based on the Keith Monk’s cleaner from the 60’s. It does an amazingly good job. Do a Google search on both cleaners and see what people are saying, even on this forum people rate them well. 

Love the Gotan Project by the way cool group.

Chris

[TheChairGuy]

Ed,

You seem more methodical than most (that's primarily a compliment )...I suspect what bothers you may not bother the majority. 

So, I have only one copy of each album (unless I screw up and buy another forgetting I have it already....which has happened once or twice to me)

btw, a lot of the new vinyl really is poorly made...I, too, have found warpage an issue.  Right now there are so many vinyl pressing plants and these are running 24/7 to keep up with surging demand so I think Quality Control is next to nil.  As more plants begin operation again, I think there will be healthy competition and better quality to choose from.  Right now, it's an ugly mess I've found among new records (which cost somewhat startling to me $16 - $35) and I primarily stick to used.

At $2-$6 a disc I can handle imperfections in stride.

Much more harmful than even the disc quality I found is the recording quality.  I just bought 'O Brother, Where Art Thou'.  The Bluegrass music on this 2 disc set is fantastic.  But they seem to have recorded it in some 'enhanced' mp3 format (ditto for a Merisyahu album recently, too).  It's friggin' abysmal, 2 dimensional sound quality.

I realize some might not hear it, but I hear the problem instantaneously.  What bothers me might not bother you...and vice versa 

I use different cleaning chemicals than you, but I really don't think it's the reason I am relatively more satisfied with vinyl disc quality.  It's probably more specific to the individual vinylphool than anything else 

Ciao, John

[twitch54]

I buy one, from a reputable dealer so as to easily return, although I've only returned but a few.

I did buy two of the Norah Jones LP that was limited pressed in Red Vinyl a couple years back, leaving one sealed for whatever it might be worth down the road.

[ecramer]

I find that i can stand a little crackle or pop that won't get me to buy an other copy but I also find that a lot of older records that certain pressings sound better then others so i may try different pressing till i get a good copy In example the Beatles White Alpum the british pressing pressing Green ring on label is the best pressing a much cleaneer sound then later amarican pressings

ED

[orthobiz]

Having grown up with vinyl, crackles and pops don't bother me too much. I also have a Loricraft and lately I've been pretreating my used vinyl with hospital enzyme stuff. It's supposed to be gentle on everything, a tiny bit goes a long way and it's way cheaper than the vinyl-specific enzymatic cleaner. Then I use L'art du Son for a "rinse." Makes a BIG difference. Sometimes I steam 'em.

I never return records but it's because I live 40 and 100 miles from the two nearest sources! Plus, lots bought on the internet.

I collected for so many years and now my daughters are getting into it. Turns out I don't even KNOW what I have!! F'rinst: David Bowie Ziggy Stardust...I have an American copy, a Japanese copy (did I know you're supposed to SAVE the OBI strip??) and a MOFI half mastered copy!

Have fun,

Paul

[Scottdazzle]

I had to buy 5 copies of Steely Dan's Aja to find one with good sound and reasonably quiet surfaces.  The Cisco reissue had the worst sound (weird mix, pitch fluctuation), followed by a budget reissue on the ABC label (no highs).  Three garden variety 1970's vintage ABC led to one good listening copy.  Who knows, maybe it's a hot stamper. 

I don't mind buying multiple copies to find a keeper when the price is low enough, but sometimes I just can't find a good one and keep buying copies with my fingers crossed. 

[Scott F.]

New vinyl that hasn't been mastered by one of the old timers (Stan Ricker, Steve Hoffman, Bernie Grundman and very few others) is an absolute crap shoot. Some the new vinyl sounds so bad its almost like the mastering service didn't have a clue what the RIAA curve is supposed to look like. Three or four very recent purchases of mine are heavily rolled off in the highs. Surface noise is mostly OK but the damned things are almost unlistenable. I say almost because I can cheat a bit because use the Graham Slee Jazz Club phono stage which lets me modify the EQing of a particular record by the simple flip of a switch. The average vinylphile won't invest this much in a phono stage but then again with over 3k albums, I want to listen to all of them. You'd be amazed how many classic rock albums from the 60's and 70's suffer these same ills.

If you are into music from the early 60's through the mid 70's I'll give you a little tip. Buy the White Label Promo's. These were the typically first records off the very first stamper and mother. These records were the first out the door so the promotional guys could get them in the hands of the DJs at your local radio station. The music director at the radio station usually recorded the best songs on a cart then filed the pristine vinyl away in their archives. Granted not all stations did this but most did. The WLPs have deeper grooves, contain more information and sound far superior to the general production run vinyl. These (more often than not) sound better than most of the 180 gram reissues I've bought.

Now, when you start searching for WLPs, you are going to find Promotional copies but they don't have the white label. These are hit or miss. Guessing, they are about 70% primo sound and 30% average sound. The reason for this was so the record label could save a few nickels on the white label production run. Most of the promo albums still came from the first pressing batch but about 30% of teh time, the promotional guys, after running out of the first run promos, would grab a stack from anywhere in the production run, stamp it as a Promo and continue handing them out to radio stations, record stores and the like.

In general the WLPs from eBay fetch about 50% more than the standard record. More popular albums like Jethro Tull Aqualung can cost a young fortune but overall they are a great value...not to mention, a well kept secret....so don't spread the word  ...and for goodness sake, don't go running the price of WLPs up. 

In general, you want an album that is as close to the first off the press as possible. Trouble is trying to determine that fact. With the older shaded dog RCAs, they listed the stamper numbers in the dead wax. I've got a number of 1S through 4S pressings and when compared to the higher stamper numbers (6S and so on) the lower stampers sound much better.

When it comes to trying to figure out newer vinyl...good luck. I have gone through as many as 5-6 copies before I found the best sounding piece. One specifically that comes to mind is Pink Floyd's Wish you were here. I bet I had six copies of that at one time before I found a clear sounding copy. Since this was a common find in the dollar bins, it was no big deal but for more expensive and new records, we can't do this.

Companies like Classic, Simply Vinyl and the other major reissue guys are pretty consistant with their releases. Most sound pretty darned good if not better than the original issue. These smaller labels using the manu upstart pressing plants and mastering facilities is where vinyl is going to get a bad name. Oh, any of the Blue Note reissues (at only $10 clams) are always a safe bet. Those guys never stopped pressing vinyl and do a great job of in house mastering.

I recently bought the new U2 album from Best Buy. Sure, I probably shouldn't have gotten it there but I wanted to show support for them stocking vinyl again. In a word, the mastering sucked. I had to dig into my Jazz Clubs EQ settings to get rid of the rolled off highs. Same went for the most recent Los Lonely Boys album It sounded even worse. Hell, the MP3 download sounded better.

I could type volumes but maybe I save that for an article at EnjoyTheMusic.com.

Don't get me wrong, I love vinyl and am so glad its now gone mainstream again. I just wish somebody would give these new young pups an education on vinyl mastering. Each of them need to apprentice under the old masters before these record companies turn them loose to master anything other than the Wiggles.



....oh, and don't get fooled into buying test pressings. Most of them suck sonically. Now if you want them for the sheer collectability, that is a different story. I've got a few myself. My prize is David Crosby's If Only I Could Remember My Name, faithfully preserved since 1970. 

Happy Hunting

[TheChairGuy]

Brilliant stuff, Scott!

Thanks, John

[orthobiz]

Great, Scott (as opposed to GREAT SCOTT!!!!). Is there a resource for some of the lead out groove wax impressions and differing labels? I know there's a couple of books out there about some of the British EMI/Harvest stuff, but I'm not about to hunt it all down.

I mean a list of tips, such as Porky Prime Cuts on many LP's he mastered, including a lot of the Elvis Costello stuff. Or regular labelling, such as the red label Columbia vs. the more orange colored labels with little Columbia's all around the edge of the label...

Whenever Fremer writes about records and says to look for this label or that, I run to my collection only to find...I've got the WRONG one! (except the pink label Allman Brothers Live at the Fillmore, but then the Hot Stamper people might say THAT's the wrong one!).

I agree on the promos, though. I have a bunch, they used to be cheapos at Second Coming Records downtown Manhattan and other places. I even like 'em without artwork! Not just because they might sound better but it appeals to the music snob that secretly lurks within.

Paul

[low.pfile]

Thanks for the input all! It's a bit reassuring.

Scott F, Great scott, indeed, you out did yourself. Looking forward to your ETM article.

Those Loricrafts are more than many TTs! Didn't know about that fancy stuff, I bet it works very well.

Cheers, Ed

[Wayner]

I have many promo albums that are 12" 45 RPMs made for radio stations. The list has in it Simple Minds, don't you forget about me, Billy Idol, White Wedding and Tears for Fears, Everybody Whats to rule the world.

If all LP's sounded like these 3 everyone would be buying LPs. The Simple Minds tune is outright scary to listen to, especially at elevated levels. Funny that the rpm is 1/3 more but you really don't hear any surface noise at all.

Wayner 

[Scott F.]

Hiya Paul,

Is there a resource for some of the lead out groove wax impressions and differing labels? I know there's a couple of books out there about some of the British EMI/Harvest stuff, but I'm not about to hunt it all down.

I mean a list of tips, such as Porky Prime Cuts on many LP's he mastered, including a lot of the Elvis Costello stuff. Or regular labelling, such as the red label Columbia vs. the more orange colored labels with little Columbia's all around the edge of the label...

Unfortunately there aren't any really good sources that consolidate all the stamper information fromthe major labels into a single source. You almost have to pull from the books you mentioned and sites like the Vinyl Asylum, the Vinyl Engine and the Record Collectors Guild. A quick search using sometime like "stamper" or "hot stamper" will net you small shards of information. I wish there was one central source we could all pull from but I haven't found one yet.

I recently saw a thread on one of the forums where it decrypted some of the newer stamper information. I wish I would have bookmarked it.

Not just because they might sound better but it appeals to the music snob that secretly lurks within.

   me too 

[orthobiz]

I have many promo albums that are 12" 45 RPMs made for radio stations. The list has in it Simple Minds, don't you forget about me, Billy Idol, White Wedding and Tears for Fears, Everybody Whats to rule the world.

Wayner 

I have the White Wedding 12". It's got wonderful sound. But no 12" shakes the house up more than Blue Monday by New Order. I know just how Shawn felt when his buddy was going to hurl his Blue Monday at the zombie in Shawn of the Dead.

That's gonna be the continuing appeal of vinyl for me forever. There's so much well-recorded stuff out there, stuff I haven't even heard yet!

Paul

[orthobiz]

Hiya Paul,


Unfortunately there aren't any really good sources that consolidate all the stamper information fromthe major labels into a single source. You almost have to pull from the books you mentioned and sites like the Vinyl Asylum, the Vinyl Engine and the Record Collectors Guild. A quick search using sometime like "stamper" or "hot stamper" will net you small shards of information. I wish there was one central source we could all pull from but I haven't found one yet.

It's a shame. I just found the stevehoffman.tv website by accident. I'm a Move/Roy Wood fanatic so I casually did a search and found dozens of hits in threads that were literally 40 pages long! I'm almost afraid to look for label info!!!!

Paul

[low.pfile]

I have the White Wedding 12". It's got wonderful sound. But no 12" shakes the house up more than Blue Monday by New Order. I know just how Shawn felt when his buddy was going to hurl his Blue Monday at the zombie in Shawn of the Dead.

That's gonna be the continuing appeal of vinyl for me forever. There's so much well-recorded stuff out there, stuff I haven't even heard yet!

Paul

Cool. I am the biggest New Order fan. Don't have BlueMonday on vinyl, yet. but have True Faith 12" (my all time favorite) and Round and Round 12" . I am a product of art school and this is my music. I will be challenging everyone for other NO 12"s now. Be warned.

Very cool that you guys like the "good" 80's stuff.

Blue Monday also on the Married to the Mob soundtrack!!

cheers, ed

[low.pfile]

Mostly to Scott F, if you would humour me.....

I am not going to be analytical when listening to New Order, Depeche or David Bowie, but I am wondering how one determines that the RIAA curve is off on an LP?  I guess it is just lots of experience with certain recordings.

I compare the records to my CDs. If it  sounds off, I may hear it , but how I may not be certain.

I obviously am not going for for the ultimate playback, but want the music to be right.

Maybe your vinyl article could cover how to determine how poorly an vinyl LP was transferred?

cheers, ed