AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Hyperion 938 Speaker Owners => Topic started by: watchemglow on 9 Jun 2009, 02:01 am
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Who's still lovin' their 938s out there?
In light of Peter Moncrieff's review of the 968s, I wonder if anyone has tried reversing the phase to the midrange driver of their 938s.
I have.
cheers,
Paul
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Hello!
I am new owner of a 938 ( last 6 months ) and saving money for amp to do the job with 938.
My KRELL KAV-400xi just could not drive them correctly so i sold it.
I had a few other amps that also sucked.
Inverting the phase of any driver in 938 was not better in my situation.
Must say I enjoy 938's even without matching amplification.
Really special loudspeakers but needs carefull matchig of components and wires.
What are youre impressions?
Why did you asked that question?
P.S. English is not my language so excuse me.
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Best match for the 938 i heard so far : the Lavardin amps, especially the IT model.
I'm an Hyperion dealer but not a Lavardin dealer, i tried maybe 20-25 amps with the 938 and 968.
Try to hear one and you will "see".
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Thank you very much for that information.
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Hi Gogg,
I'm surprised you Krell had trouble driving the 938's. They have a reputation for being easy on amplifiers, so I wonder what issues you had with the sound. You say that you still enjoy the 938's - but lots of amps that sucked... have you had these speakers working in a good set up yet? I just wonder if the amps are really your problem. That said, you're not likely to go wrong with Lavardin. I hope you sort it all out.
Speaking of sounds that suck, literally, and referring back to phase issues again. While I've always enjoyed my 938's, I always felt that Srajan's 6moons review was spot-on in describing them as very pure, but a bit like viewing from a distance, a great panoramic vista that didn't necessarily make you part of the musical experience. I often found vocals slightly recessed in the mix... clear, but not necessarily projecting the energy out to me. Then recently I was listening to a CD and found one voice in particular sounded evacuated and concave, exactly along the lines described in the IAR review of the 968.
So I switched the midrange phase and this has completely changed the balance. Voices have distinctly more body and tighter body, energy is projected properly. It makes you want to sing along - I'd always wondered why these speakers never had that effect on me before. Instruments are far more cohesive from top to bottom. A plucked string on an acoustic guitar presents all the internal elements from treble to bass in a cohesive way. The speakers are nearly invisible; many veils have been removed. Singers are 'be there' clear, there's great immediacy. It sounds much more correct to me.
Of course, I could be getting phase issues introduced upstream, but I don't think so. I'm still playing around with how the bass should be set with respect to the midrange polarity - there may be some thinness in the upper bass with standard connection, but connected either way the bass is more tonal now and much easier to follow.
The good thing is that this is really easy to try. I'd love to hear from anyone else who gives it a go - assuming they're happy with their amp in the first place of course.
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Thank you very much for that information.
My close friend will soon become official Lavardin dealer and i'll be first around to listen to those amps!
Have you any other advice (expirience) about 938 , not exposed at this forum, to share with me and every body else? ( i'm tired of experimenting and need a little break so anything is good to me )
Ask your friend to get the Lavardin cables (speakers and interconnects) as they match very nicely with both Hyperion and amps.
If you can listen to this setup please write your impressions in this forum :)
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Ok guys thak you both.
Problem with my 938s is little too slow bass.
When I figure out where exactly the problem is i'll be back here to inform you.
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Gogg, I've found two primary reasons for slow bass of the 938s are due to amplification and room interactions.
Watchemglow, you reversed the phase of your midrange of the 938s? The crossover topologies for the 938s and 968s are different as far as I'm aware, 968s being closer to first order. I'm not aware the midrange phase is reversed for the 938s. I have not found the 938 presentation distant - IME the presentation had lot to do with the amplification used.
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Hi Dracule,
Yes, I have the midrange reversed, and the bass too. I haven't analysed the bass too closely, but it seemed to follow the IAR discussion on the 968s in that, with midrange reversed but bass correct, the upper bass/lower mids seemed a little lean. Right now, it really does sound good. Vocal energy just seems to come at you straight up off the singers' diaphragms. Instruments have resolved into a tighter and more coherent image. I've had my 938s configured normally for over 3 years, so it is a bit shocking to find something so fundamental only now. Its also surprising that it is not more obviously incorrect one way or the other. Those two sentences may seem contradictory, but of course, subtle audible differences can be hugely important musically.
As I said, it could be something upstream in my system, but that is not my suspicion. I was aware that the 938s and 968s have different crossovers, but I think (I haven't checked back to confirm) that the 968 review indicated the element causing the phase inversion was there to overcome a resonance in the midrange driver. Perhaps this element also exists in the 968s - I don't know. Bottom line is that, for many, it should be easy to try for themselves. If so, give it a blast. Should some folks come to the same findings, I expect some might still prefer the straight wiring. Its a bit like a setting for different voicings.
Hi Gogg,
About 6 months back I finally managed to resolve, or at least markedly improve upon, a long standing issue I had with my household electricity mains supply. This improvement to power quality led to the most significant improvement in bass (and just about everything else) that I've been been able to achieve. Some Boston Audio tuneblocks under my CD transport also made a great improvement to bass. My first serious system a few years back had big issues with slow bass which were resolved by swapping out the dreadful Cardas Cross interconnects for some (awesome) Cawsey CCAs.
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Guys,
This subject has been debated but what is the current thinking on changing the polarity of the mid-range speakers? Is it specific for the 968, is it something the manufacturer has a view on? What is people's experience? I could (and probably will) play with polarity as the speakers are tri-wired but what does Hyperion think?
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As per prior post, I have my speakers reversed for mid and bass. It certainly seems to be working for me but the post didn't seem to spark much interest and I don't think many others have tried it (nor felt the need to). If you're tri-wired, as I am, it is extremely easy to try as I'm sure you're aware. If you have a recording that you find sounds thin and 'sucked out', see if reversing the polarity gives you better body and projection. Conversely, if you have a recording that you feel already has those qualities then see if the change is detrimental. I believe some folks who have the benefit of a phase switch in their system will move back and forth for different recordings. I haven't observed any negatives, but the benefits have been more obvious on some recordings than others.
Sadly, the folks at Hyperion are not inclined to share their thoughts on the circle here. I don't know if there is any percieved conflict in manufacturers doing so. I would be interested to know if they agreed with the phase reports for the 968 and if they made any changes as a result of that review.
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Best match for the 938 i heard so far : the Lavardin amps, especially the IT model.
I'm an Hyperion dealer but not a Lavardin dealer, i tried maybe 20-25 amps with the 938 and 968.
Try to hear one and you will "see".
I drive my 938's with a Dussun V8i integrated, power enough but anyone heard them or used these speakers on a Dussun?
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Hmmm. ...
I contacted the importer and they said they prefer them connected as per the back of the speaker with no phase inversion. I will try it over the week-end.
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Importer? Which country may I ask?
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Does the OEM wire all drivers in phase? Such speakers are more revealing of absolute polarity than non-phase coherent speakers (one or more drivers wired in reverse polarity to others).
Phase coherent speakers will have the above described negative audio performance symptom if/when their polarity is reversed (relative to the original musical event in real time). FYI there is only limited adherence to absolute polarity in the recording/software chain; further, dubbing can & will sometimes reverse the absolute polarity.
All above is preface to this recommendation: for any/all phase coherent speakers, if/when the recessed negative performance symptom is observed, reverse the input wires of BOTH speakers, thus reversing the absolute polarity. The result may be revealing. (Unbalanced analog components require an extra distortion-increasing gain stage to reverse polarity-not recommended.)
Just curious if 6moons shared an opinion of the audibility or lack thereof regarding absolute polarity? Did they notice a relationship between audibility & the speaker's phase-coherency?
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Importer? Which country may I ask?
Real Hifi in the UK. They are still plugging the speakers, although not sure what direct selling will do. They also advertise it as a 938 UK voiced speaker.
So far the speakers sound really lively and fast with correct wiring. With reverse polarity the voices are more solid but some of the liveness goes and on some tracks sound slightly odd (hollow). if you want a very lively sound then leave well alone but for more solid voices then change the polarity. More listening required. :D :D :D
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Importer? Which country may I ask?
Real Hifi in the UK. They are still plugging the speakers, although not sure what direct selling will do. They also advertise it as a 938 UK voiced speaker.
So far the speakers sound really lively and fast with correct wiring. With reverse polarity the voices are more solid but some of the liveness goes and on some tracks sound slightly odd (hollow). if you want a very lively sound then leave well alone but for more solid voices then change the polarity. More listening required. :D :D :D
I am from Belgium and i also bought them in my country.
Wether they are UK voiced or not, i don't know, it might be a mod from the "Real Hifi" importer only.
But it's intresting, maybe i should contact "Real Hifi" and ask them.
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Good to hear your impressions George47, I was wondering how the 'UK Voicing' might play into the phase question. I'd love to know what the importers have done and what they were out to achieve with this re-voicing.
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By the way, did you try reversing the bass along with the midrange. Not doing so, in my case, did result in an odd, unbalanced sound, in line with the notion that some regions of the spectrum could be cancelling out.
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I have an answer from Real hihi in the UK...
"Hello Danny,
American speakers always sound over-endowed in the bass when one listens to them over here. Our UK rooms are typically smaller and our walls are made from more solid materials. We do modifications to the crossover to adjust certain parameters.
I am not familiar with Belgium acoustic environments and I?d hate to charge you for a modification that might make your sound worse rather than better.
I am very sorry that I can?t help you any further.
Best regards,
Matthew Jameson"
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If an owner of this speaker has experienced the negative symptoms described above, everyone reading this thread (including me) might be enlightened if the owner would indeed try reversing the phase/input polarity at the input terminals of BOTH the L & R speakers. Nothing might be gained but there'd be nothing lost except the time expended in the exercise. It would sure be less hassle & less invasive than inverting the input phase of individual drivers post-xo, as suggested elsewhere.
Every known review/report read on the subject speaker has been positive & the designer has a mile long star studded professional history. It seems rather odd that the speaker would improve by resorting to such drastic reengineering as recommended in this thread by other members.
My long time experience is that the more phase correct is the speaker, the more dramatic is the effect of correct vs. incorrect absolute polarity. My experience is that the negative symptom when it is inverted is exactly as described herein.
Please try it.
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As per prior post, I have my speakers reversed for mid and bass. It certainly seems to be working for me but the post didn't seem to spark much interest and I don't think many others have tried it (nor felt the need to).
For the bass drivers it's dead easy to spot if they are out of phase while the speaker cable is connected the right way. Just a bass heavy dance or the like will do and you can see for yourself if the woofers will fire outwards or inwards. When they fire outwards they are correct.
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As per prior post, I have my speakers reversed for mid and bass. It certainly seems to be working for me but the post didn't seem to spark much interest and I don't think many others have tried it (nor felt the need to). If you're tri-wired, as I am, it is extremely easy to try as I'm sure you're aware. If you have a recording that you find sounds thin and 'sucked out', see if reversing the polarity gives you better body and projection. Conversely, if you have a recording that you feel already has those qualities then see if the change is detrimental. I believe some folks who have the benefit of a phase switch in their system will move back and forth for different recordings. I haven't observed any negatives, but the benefits have been more obvious on some recordings than others.
Sadly, the folks at Hyperion are not inclined to share their thoughts on the circle here. I don't know if there is any percieved conflict in manufacturers doing so. I would be interested to know if they agreed with the phase reports for the 968 and if they made any changes as a result of that review.
If you are reversing mid & bass you could accomplish the same thing by reversing at the amp end and the tweeter, of course!
You guys realize that you could have component in the chain reversing polarity as well, right? Many amps and preamps reverse polarity. If you are not taking that into account results are moot. And many recordings have reversed polarity as well - you only achieve accurate polarity by tailoring it to every recording!
That is a different issue than whether or not the midrange driver is in-phase with the bass and tweeter.
I'd rather run my speakers as they were designed than with my custom crossover mods - which is what inverting phase on one of the drivers amounts to.
I am now listening to these speakers with my Audio Note Kits DAC and pre and Audiopax 88 monoblocks, and this sound is exquisite. It does not get much better than this at any price. I find the Hyperion 938s to be wonderfully balanced and musical speakers, and extremely revealing as well.
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At a certain level of refinement the polarity orientation of capacitors is observed by speaker builders (the more costly the speakers the more likely this is observed; at the lowest cost levels it is almost universally ignored). A few rare caps of moderate to higher cost come w/ their output lead marked (output +, input -). Some builders like myself purchase cheapo surplus caps that sound phenomenally great but must be individually auditioned to find their correct polarity. I've proven my results several times by marking the caps discreetly then retesting w/o knowing which side was marked and coming to the same conclusion.
If the caps' polarity is observed in the speaker's build, inverting the input will affect a sum total two parameters:
1. the caps' polarity will be inverted relative to the amplifier's output phase, thus diminshing performance. This means it matters whether individual driver polarity is inverted pre or post XO. If cap polarity is ignored by the builder, only if the caps' just happened to be in correct phase by coincidence could this effect be noticed.
2. the speaker's absolute polarity relative to the source is inverted. For unknown reasons listener sensitivity to this item varies from high (I'm in this category) to inaudible. Speaker sensitivy to this also varies: minimum phase speakers have high sensitivty, multiway speakers w/ driver polarities inverted relative to each other are apparently universaly unfazed (pun intended) by absolute faze changes.
It's more complicated than first glance might indicate.
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From my experience in building kits capacitors with polarity markings are very common. In the Audio Note kits, all caps are so marked, I believe. Certainly almost all, including those in the power supply.
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Paul
Are you describing polarized caps or non-polarized? By their very nature all polarized caps have their output marked.
I'm talking about the correct (for best audible performance) marking of the output of NON-polarized caps specifically for speaker XO construction. I'm pretty sure, even based on shopping for speaker caps this past week, such rarely have their output marked. It's unbeveliebly time consuming to test each cap, especially for second decimal matching, my preference. (Plus I'm building three bipolar speakers, each w/ two separate xo's for six total xo's. You can see why I'd rather type here than work.)
But this wouldn't be the first or last time I was very wrong! :lol:
I just read last week how/why the polarity affects performance (of NON-polarzed caps) but I'm getting old and I already forgot. Hopefully a much smarter member will chime in.
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I had a relaxed afternoon that i could audition the difference with midrange reversed for the 2nd time now.
The first time i did this i heard a diference but i couldn't really point out what was different.
Now, i rewired and switched back a few times.
It was obvious when sitting at the sweetspot and with midrange reversed voices were right in the middle and more focused.
But i found the sweetspot a lot smaller.
When the midrange was connected in the right way as Hyperion intended the sound is a lot less sweetspot sensetive and a bit more open.
This was obvious to hear when i swing my head a bit to the left or right with both phase or out of phase wired.
For solo listening at the sweetspot, i prefer reversed though.
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As per prior post, I have my speakers reversed for mid and bass. It certainly seems to be working for me but the post didn't seem to spark much interest and I don't think many others have tried it (nor felt the need to). If you're tri-wired, as I am, it is extremely easy to try as I'm sure you're aware. If you have a recording that you find sounds thin and 'sucked out', see if reversing the polarity gives you better body and projection. Conversely, if you have a recording that you feel already has those qualities then see if the change is detrimental. I believe some folks who have the benefit of a phase switch in their system will move back and forth for different recordings. I haven't observed any negatives, but the benefits have been more obvious on some recordings than others.
Sadly, the folks at Hyperion are not inclined to share their thoughts on the circle here. I don't know if there is any percieved conflict in manufacturers doing so. I would be interested to know if they agreed with the phase reports for the 968 and if they made any changes as a result of that review.
I'd rather run my speakers as they were designed than with my custom crossover mods - which is what inverting phase on one of the drivers amounts to.
I am now listening to these speakers with my Audio Note Kits DAC and pre and Audiopax 88 monoblocks, and this sound is exquisite. It does not get much better than this at any price. I find the Hyperion 938s to be wonderfully balanced and musical speakers, and extremely revealing as well.
Hi PaulFolbrecht
Crossover mods? You did more then just rewiring with the speaker? What mods have you done? Were you not happy with the mods?
The Audiopax blocks look nice and as 6moons also mentioned, tube amps with a bit power and SET amps in general should perform very well on the Hyperions.
Rightnow i can't get myself so far to get rid of my current solid state amp.
It does sound good but maybe a bit cold, but i also can use it as power amp, so i think this in combo with a tube Pre amp is worth a try. aa
But i think you can do even better for less money then with the Audiopax.
I'm very tempted in http://www.sacthailand.com/ amps.
I bet the Silk Glow Master GM70 monoblocks and even the KT88 which are more powerful then the Audiopax will prove to be of the best. :)
I honestly didn't hear them yet as it's not easy to locate a dealer for them, but i did some reasearch, read the hifi world review and listened to some customers that also tried a lot of gear in the past and were blown away about these SACthailands.
So far i only know an adress from a dealer in the Netherlands and in the UK.
I think they don't have many dealers as SACThailand is only building them based on an order from a client, they hand build transformers and the components themselves in house.