AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Digital Amplifier Company Owners => Topic started by: RonN5 on 3 Mar 2021, 05:13 pm
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Two of the things I appreciate most about my 2Cherry are the beautiful tonality and the large, dimensional soundstage. By comparison, if you wander over to the Decware website and read some of the posts by owners of their amps you will see the same words being used to describe the sound of their amplifiers.
All of which makes me wonder, how can a 200 Watt/Solid State/Class D/Negative Feedback amplifier like the 2Cherry sound so similar to the 2Watt/Tube/Triode/No Negative Feedback Decware Zen Triode Amplifier? What is it that I’m missing?
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Its really about system and speaker matching. I haven't heard Decware amps but they are meant for high efficiency speakers. Basically, 93db and higher. Your class D amp has more than enough power for really any speaker. Also, watts per channel is one of the most misleading metrics in audio. I learned this years ago because I had solid state amps running 100+ wpc and up to 250 wpc. Then I heard a 30wpc Primaluna tube amp and my jaw dropped. The bass was so much more impactful and the sound was just better in every regard. I've tried other solid state amps since including class D, but haven't liked any enough to own long term. However, everyone has their own taste as to what sounds good. Some like detail, some like bass and dynamics, some like musicality, tone, imaging, etc. Tube amps produce even order harmonic distortion. Some like that sound, some don't. I find it addictive, as do others who've heard it. However, I suggest you listen for yourself. Try not to get caught up on the watts. If you have 10 wpc and a 90db sensitive speaker, and an average listening space, you have plenty of power.
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Any good amp should contribute to providing great tonality and a large soundstage. A solid state amp can be designed to sound just as "tubey" as a tube amp and vice versa.
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Tube amplifiers usually have pretty bad issues at frequency extremes due to output transformers. OTL types require massive parallelism to be effective.
Then there are the issues of performance.... Noise, distortion, etc.... To get decent performance you will need to spend big $$. That's at low power. Want some real power? Well, get ready to fork over 5-figure USD prices for an amp that can't outperform a $100 Japanese receiver from the 1980s.
Then there are the issues of fragility, heat, tube replacement, inefficiency,
The reason Cherry amps have a "more tubish" sound (without the noise and distortion) is our special modulation technology. Class-D amps come in many flavors, and our topology is unlike any other.
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Tommy,
First, thanks for weighing. Your comments make me want to ask two questions:
1. I guess I thought that "tube sound" was a partially, maybe largely, a result of their distortion...is this not the case or possibly too simplistic?
2. For those of us non technical types, can you define what modulation means and why it is needed?
Thanks
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Tommy,
First, thanks for weighing. Your comments make me want to ask two questions:
1. I guess I thought that "tube sound" was a partially, maybe largely, a result of their distortion...is this not the case or possibly too simplistic?
2. For those of us non technical types, can you define what modulation means and why it is needed?
Thanks
1. I guess I thought that "tube sound" was a partially, maybe largely, a result of their distortion...is this not the case or possibly too simplistic?
-- yes, distortion and noise
2. For those of us non technical types, can you define what modulation means and why it is needed?
-- Class-D amplifiers need to "modulate" the signal to convert an analog waveform to a pulse train. The pulse train is amplified with devices used as switches, then filtered "back down to analog".
The circuitry used to modulate the signal can be very complex. Modulation can also be done in the analog domain, digital domain, or a hybrid approach where it is split between the two.
Modulation is my specialty (:
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The better tube amplifiers seem to present an almost liquid and 3 dimensional soundstage...which is exactly what I attribute to and enjoy so much about the 2Cherry....although I'm not sure why since the 2Cherry noise and distortion are extremely low compared to any/all tube amplifiers?
On the website 10audio, they were reviewing an amplifier and gave it a "7" for "immersion" meaning sound that is "captivating, involved, and thoroughly satisfying". I would add to that sound that at times is all around you and that seems alive and real and puts a smile on your face.
For me, the 2Cherry continues to be a "10".
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1. I guess I thought that "tube sound" was a partially, maybe largely, a result of their distortion...is this not the case or possibly too simplistic?
-- yes, distortion and noise
2. For those of us non technical types, can you define what modulation means and why it is needed?
-- Class-D amplifiers need to "modulate" the signal to convert an analog waveform to a pulse train. The pulse train is amplified with devices used as switches, then filtered "back down to analog".
The circuitry used to modulate the signal can be very complex. Modulation can also be done in the analog domain, digital domain, or a hybrid approach where it is split between the two.
Modulation is my specialty (:
You do quite a good job putting Humpty Dumpty back together again. Not an easy task.
charles
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Our ears are not really stable so sometimes we will prefer the sound of the SS amp and sometimes we will prefer the sound of the Tube amp.
I personally prefer the SS amp, it gives more dynamic, more accuracy.
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"On the website 10audio, they were reviewing an amplifier and gave it a "7" for "immersion" meaning sound that is "captivating, involved, and thoroughly satisfying". I would add to that sound that at times is all around you and that seems alive and real and puts a smile on your face."
From what I understand, a 7 rating from 10 audio has nothing to do with "immersion"......in fact, it takes an 8 or higher for him to recommend auditioning. Why not send Jerry at 10 audio the best Cherry amp (mono Mega's) and let him give it a number.....that is meaningful...at least in his context. Of course, you could send him a lesser Cherry amp.....but, more than likely, won't get as high a number. We like our numbers here, don't we.
RonN5,
Have you a/bed in your system a 2cherry amp and a Decware amp? How do you know they sound so similar? I would bet they would be quite different. But only those who have actually done listening tests know, for sure.
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Ric,
No, I haven't heard the Decware or compared one of the other tube amplifiers in my system....so....
I should have said that the "descriptions" of the sound from tube amplifiers (by their owners) like the Decware or Cherry Amplifiers like the 2Cherry are so similar that I wondered how it was possible.....could these two different amplifier technologies produce sound that was so similar and if so, how?
In other words, more of a hypothetical question.
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Ric,
No, I haven't heard the Decware or compared one of the other tube amplifiers in my system....so....
I should have said that the "descriptions" of the sound from tube amplifiers (by their owners) like the Decware or Cherry Amplifiers like the 2Cherry are so similar that I wondered how it was possible.....could these two different amplifier technologies produce sound that was so similar and if so, how?
In other words, more of a hypothetical question.
Lots of people will use superlatives to describe their system’s sound never really having heard what is really possible. What one person says is great soundstaging could be pretty mediocre sounding to someone with a better system so unless you are reading comments from someone who has heard both components in the same room with the same ancillary components, reading what individual owners are posting about their own equipment is useless.
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I had an Odyssey system, a Linear Tube Audio combination and a Lyndorf digital amplifier in my home for a couple of weeks for evaluation for an upgrade. As much as I wanted the cool looking LTA amp to win, the Lyngdorf stayed. The others went back. The LTA was really good but the Lyngdorf was noticeably better and the Odyssey wasn't even in the same league with the other two. And these results were confirmed by several others who's opinions, and hearing, I trust and didn't have any idea what hardware they were listening to. Zero equipment bias from them.
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Maybe the Lyngdorf was a better match with the speakers than the LTA.
Yep, I figured that would be the next comment.
Tried them all with different combinations of front end set-up and several speakers including OB and Box. It was consistently better.
Could it be the Lyngdorf was the better amplifier? I guess you could blame the room. That was the only constant.
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Yep, I figured that would be the next comment.
Tried them all with different combinations of front end set-up and several speakers including OB and Box. It was consistently better.
Could it be the Lyngdorf was the better amplifier? I guess you could blame the room. That was the only constant.
What sets amplifiers apart is how well they handle the extremes and how well they handle the speakers. Cherry Amps use unconventional techniques to deliver "the good stuff about tubes" without "the bad stuff about tubes". The good stuff being the smoothness that some of tube amps have, especially well designed OTL types. The bad stuff includes noise and "wooly bass".
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Tommy, years ago I had a 4800A and a Plus amp. This was before I knew what I was doing. I believe these more conventional amp designs. What do you have in a one box solution for stereo using your D approach? I'm shopping for an amp for a second system and while right now the amp would power Salk HT1's at 84db, you never know what may come down the road. I'm trying to stay under 2k.
(I'm not keen on having power supplies dangling and a bunch of wires to manage with multiple boxes)
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I’ve heard a bunch of digital amps, the DAC’s are the best I’ve heard.
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Tommy, years ago I had a 4800A and a Plus amp. This was before I knew what I was doing. I believe these more conventional amp designs. What do you have in a one box solution for stereo using your D approach? I'm shopping for an amp for a second system and while right now the amp would power Salk HT1's at 84db, you never know what may come down the road. I'm trying to stay under 2k.
(I'm not keen on having power supplies dangling and a bunch of wires to manage with multiple boxes)
I now have a Megaschino but before that the 2-Cherry. I believe that either would meet your needs with the 2 Cherry closer to your budget.
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............ without "the bad stuff about tubes". The bad stuff includes noise and "wooly bass".
I have owned several tube amps over the years, don't remember much noise (unless I put my ear to the tweeter/ss also) or wooly bass, just good enjoyable music. :banana piano: :violin: :drums: :guitar:
:green:
Generalizations like, "all class D amplifiers.........(something undesireable)", are not a good thing.
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RonN5, there really is no conundrum. If you want tube goodness, you need to get a tube amp. The only people who talk about tube-like SS are the ones who don't have tube amps! You are not going to get that midrange magic of a good 300B or EL34 amp any other way. Then again, you give up the bass slam of SS with those. I have and enjoy SS and tube equipment. Get both.
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Or buy a speaker with a powered bass section and just run a tube amp on the mid/highs, get the best of both worlds.
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It’s like everything else in hifi. It’s not about ss vs tube, or ESS Sabre DAC vs R2R Ladder DAC, or class A vs class D. Its how the designer implements the aforementioned topologies in their design that determines the final result.
Don P
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... Lyndorf digital amplifier ...
Which Lyngdorf? There are a few different models.
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RonN5, there really is no conundrum. If you want tube goodness, you need to get a tube amp. The only people who talk about tube-like SS are the ones who don't have tube amps! You are not going to get that midrange magic of a good 300B or EL34 amp any other way. Then again, you give up the bass slam of SS with those. I have and enjoy SS and tube equipment. Get both.
Interesting, I had multiple tube amps (BAT, Golden Tube Audio, Jolida) with the very last being a 2A3 SET tube amp that I worked with a skilled designer and we hand picked all the power supplies, tubes, parts and pieces. It had minimalist point to point wiring, good connectors, the whole bit. I fell in love with it. It had it all, dynamic bass, beautiful tone, deep and wide soundstage. I was in love.
Then I met a quality guy on this forum, who convinced me to give Tommy a call and check out the the Cherry Marachino's mono blocks. He told me he sold his SET Tube amps for a set or Marachinos mono blocks and never looked back. SO I gave them a try (one has to have an open mind to really makes advances in this fun game) and within the first notes of a very familiar female singers voice, I whispered to myself, this is so much closer to the real thing. Her voice, guitar and cello strings rang so clearly on my Spatial Audio speakers that it was clear I was at a whole different level. Game over.
Do I miss anything about my tubes amps? Hell yes. I miss the magical glow of the tubes and the atmosphere they created. I might even miss the 20 minutes it took for them to warm up and play their best. It was a fun ritual.
Tommy can you stick these in an case with tubes and make them glow, so they look cool? Then I would have it all!
Cheers.
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(one has to have an open mind to really makes advances in this fun game)
..............and realize anecdotal evidence goes both ways. :wink:
"I got a tube amp for the first time and was blown away by how much more real it sounds." :dance:
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Interesting, I had multiple tube amps (BAT, Golden Tube Audio, Jolida) with the very last being a 2A3 SET tube amp that I worked with a skilled designer and we hand picked all the power supplies, tubes, parts and pieces. It had minimalist point to point wiring, good connectors, the whole bit. I fell in love with it. It had it all, dynamic bass, beautiful tone, deep and wide soundstage. I was in love.
Then I met a quality guy on this forum, who convinced me to give Tommy a call and check out the the Cherry Marachino's mono blocks. He told me he sold his SET Tube amps for a set or Marachinos mono blocks and never looked back. SO I gave them a try (one has to have an open mind to really makes advances in this fun game) and within the first notes of a very familiar female singers voice, I whispered to myself, this is so much closer to the real thing. Her voice, guitar and cello strings rang so clearly on my Spatial Audio speakers that it was clear I was at a whole different level. Game over.
Do I miss anything about my tubes amps? Hell yes. I miss the magical glow of the tubes and the atmosphere they created. I might even miss the 20 minutes it took for them to warm up and play their best. It was a fun ritual. (maybe a little boring that I flip on the Cherries and instantly they blow me away.
Tommy can you stick these in an case with tubes and make them glow, so they look cool? Then I would have it all!
Cheers.
Were you driving your Spatial X3’s with a 2a3 tube amp?
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Were you driving your Spatial X3’s with a 2a3 tube amp?
I had M3 STurbo's... then went to the X-3's and still use the marachinos on the AMT and 12" midrange.
Since amps are as good/better than tubes (certainly for the money) they are a glorious match. Nothing wrong with power.
Cheers.
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..............and realize anecdotal evidence goes both ways. :wink:
"I got a tube amp for the first time and was blown away by how much more real it sounds." :dance:
Curious, did the tubes replace the marachino's?
Most importantly, glad you are enjoying them. That's what it's all about.
Cheers.
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Curious, did the tubes replace the marachino's?
Most importantly, glad you are enjoying them. That's what it's all about.
Cheers.
Sorry I forgot these are the only good amplifiers. :wink:
It is a comment I see on various forums (reason for quotation marks), not mine.
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Another option is to own multiple amps and then there's no longer a conundrum, you just listen to whichever you want, whenever you want.
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Another option is to own multiple amps and then there's no longer a conundrum, you just listen to whichever you want, whenever you want.
Yes, and you just stole the Kismet's. Great buy, bet they will sound great!
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I now have a Megaschino but before that the 2-Cherry. I believe that either would meet your needs with the 2 Cherry closer to your budget.
Any discernible differences in sound? They are different levels of build and price for sure.
Not sure if the new Mega LC would have the same level of sound. And no idea the cost of such a unit.
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I had M3 STurbo's... then went to the X-3's and still use the marachinos on the AMT and 12" midrange.
Since amps are as good/better than tubes (certainly for the money) they are a glorious match. Nothing wrong with power.
Cheers.
It’s no wonder that the DAC amps sound better than the 2a3’s. Those tube amps are far from the best match for those speakers.