AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Digital Amplifier Company => Topic started by: AmpDesigner333 on 29 May 2012, 02:29 am

Title: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 29 May 2012, 02:29 am
Haven't had a chance to read through this entire thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1095143;topicseen#new

I requested that anyone who has had the chance to A/B compare with Cherry Amps post about it, but nothing yet....

Seems we may have opened the door to tweaking Class-D for sound as opposed to bench measurements.

I'm excited to have a listen and compare not only to Cherry Amp technology but also to our NEW technology (will be released soon).  Just glad that Class-D is continuing to gain momentum as a superior type of power delivery.

Please let us know if you've had the chance to hear ncore amps and what you think its strengths are.  As we get ready to introduce our new class of amplifiers, we would like to know if the areas we have tweaked for are in common.

Thanks, and looking forward to your responses....

-Tommy O
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Cheeseboy on 29 May 2012, 04:04 pm
Looking forward to hearing all about it. 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: jtwrace on 29 May 2012, 04:22 pm
Seems we may have opened the door to tweaking Class-D for sound as opposed to bench measurements.
Where are your measurements published on your amps?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 30 May 2012, 03:15 am
Where are your measurements published on your amps?

We are in the midst of an overhaul for our web site, but there are current specs for Cherry amps there:
www.DigitalAmp.com
(look at the product pages)

We also have a spec sheet for the original Cherry amplifier:
http://www.digitalamp.com/cherry%20measurements%20v6.pdf

Thanks for your post.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 30 May 2012, 07:17 pm
Adding NuForce into the mix ????

Check this out:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106866.msg1095751#msg1095751

Feel free to add your 2 cents.  Seriously, if there's someone in the NY/NJ/PA area that can get the other two amps, we can have an awesome Class-D amp shootout....

Of course, we will need a variety of speakers to really see/hear what's up.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: worldcat on 30 May 2012, 11:19 pm
Class D amps will get more attention soon as the company's start charging more money for them.   You can build class D so much cheaper and that threatens the establishment!!
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Freo-1 on 30 May 2012, 11:24 pm
I don’t think manufactures such as Pass Labs or Bryston are all that worried about Class D amps cutting into their business.  ;)
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Sonny on 30 May 2012, 11:31 pm
I have to say, I have not heard of the NCores or read about them from any industry write ups, but the comments / reviews here and else where really love these amps.  I will hopefully have a chance to listen to them when my friend "OrientalExpress" gets them (Thanks Jwtrace) for review...

But I think with everything, thereis always the flavor of the month...in this case, it seems like these little babies are really nice, small, effecient, relatively inexpensive and DIYable...which I think is nice...but really to compare these, one has to look at all channels and compare them, like everything else, with amps of the same costs (used or retail value)...having said that, I'd love to have a pair to compare to my older Pass X250...but don't know if I'll get a chance...so, any one that gets these from Jtwrace and auditions them, keep your comments coming!  I did read that one person with the Modwright KW-150 said he's keep it...
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Freo-1 on 30 May 2012, 11:39 pm
I have to say, I have not heard of the NCores or read about them from any industry write ups, but the comments / reviews here and else where really love these amps.  I will hopefully have a chance to listen to them when my friend "OrientalExpress" gets them (Thanks Jwtrace) for review...

But I think with everything, thereis always the flavor of the month...in this case, it seems like these little babies are really nice, small, effecient, relatively inexpensive and DIYable...which I think is nice...but really to compare these, one has to look at all channels and compare them, like everything else, with amps of the same costs (used or retail value)...having said that, I'd love to have a pair to compare to my older Pass X250...but don't know if I'll get a chance...so, any one that gets these from Jtwrace and auditions them, keep your comments coming!  I did read that one person with the Modwright KW-150 said he's keep it...

The buzz on the Ncore seems to be limited to this website.  Given all the positive reviews, would like to hook them up to my speakers for a drive, and compare them to the Pass Labs XA 30.5 or Threshold SA/3. 
 
I’m a firm believer that you need to have the component in your system for a period to time to judge if it fits or not.  A listening session on a system you are not familiar with is just not the same.
 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: worldcat on 30 May 2012, 11:39 pm
Pass and Bryston should for sure!!
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Sonny on 30 May 2012, 11:43 pm

....
I’m a firm believer that you need to have the component in your system for a period to time to judge if it fits or not.  A listening session on a system you are not familiar with is just not the same.
agreed, perhaps i can take them to my place....
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: medium jim on 30 May 2012, 11:52 pm
Freo-1:

I'm in your camp, other than here and the DIY is there any buzz about the NCore.  Absolutely, it takes some listening time to advance outside of the honeymoon period to really know what is what.

Jim
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Sonny on 30 May 2012, 11:55 pm

The buzz on the Ncore seems to be limited to this website.  Given all the positive reviews, would like to hook them up to my speakers for a drive, and compare them to the Pass Labs XA 30.5 or Threshold SA/3. 


agreed....though I don't think it would be fair to put the NCores against the XA series from Pass...
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: mr_bill on 30 May 2012, 11:59 pm
Why not?

Seee Mgalushas list of amps he has compared the NCores too as well as AtmaSphere and Lamma and they held their own.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Freo-1 on 31 May 2012, 12:02 am
agreed....though I don't think it would be fair to put the NCores against the XA series from Pass...

I know of one person who stated they had a XA 30.5, and preferred the Ncore.  I have no reason to doubt their word, but it does speak volumes of individual preferences when listening to music.  Personally, every Class D amp I’ve heard/owned was not all that hot (especially with HF). 
 
It’s “horses for courses”.  8)
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 31 May 2012, 12:28 am

I know of one person who stated they had a XA 30.5, and preferred the Ncore.  I have no reason to doubt their word, but it does speak volumes of individual preferences when listening to music.  Personally, every Class D amp I’ve heard/owned was not all that hot (especially with HF). 
 
It’s “horses for courses”.  8)

Why do you assume the ncore is the same as all other class d amps? Are all class A, AB amps the same? Have you heard it?

There have been dozens of reports from listeners and owners now, many who have owned plenty of high end amps-enough that a consensus has emerged: the ncore is a top quality amp, regardless of topology, that competes with most anything out there....About 9 out of 10 people who have reported hearing it have bought it....I would think that would speak for itself....
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: shadowlight on 31 May 2012, 12:37 am
I think the closest comment is from Barry_NJ posted on Audionervosa

I think they handle the upper frequencies better than the Cherry amps, but I think the Cherry amps have more dynamics and slam.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Freo-1 on 31 May 2012, 12:43 am
Why do you assume the ncore is the same as all other class d amps? Are all class A, AB amps the same? Have you heard it?

There have been dozens of reports from listeners and owners now, many who have owned plenty of high end amps-enough that a consensus has emerged: the ncore is a top quality amp, regardless of topology, that competes with most anything out there....About 9 out of 10 people who have reported hearing it have bought it....I would think that would speak for itself....

 
I’m sure the Ncore is a fine amplifier, but it is Class D, and one cannot cheat physics.  That means it has an output filter, lots of negative feedback, and switching transients as part of how it works (just like any other Class D).  It also means that a speaker like the Legacy Signature III, which dips to 1.1 ohms at 65 Hz, may not be a good match for it.
 
I don’t know where the figure “9 of ten people who have heard it bought it” comes from.  Regardless, as stated before, I do know folks who have heard it, and liked it better than some high quality conventional amps.  There are others who demur.  That’s why I stated a component needs to be auditioned over a period of time in your own system.  Personal tastes of what is important in playback come into this as well. 

That’s why some folks love tubes, others like lots of solid state power, etc.  Should not be a issue.   8)
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: sts9fan on 31 May 2012, 12:49 am
You may not be able to "cheat physics" but you can work within the resolution on the human ear and brain.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 31 May 2012, 12:55 am
To assume it is somehow flawed from the start based on the topology is to ignore the fact that not only does it spec better than nearly anything on the market, it also has proven itself able to compete with just about anything out there, at any price, as well. We also know that bumblebees can't fly....so much for stereotypes....welcome to state of the art class d.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: SlushPuppy on 31 May 2012, 12:57 am
You may not be able to "cheat physics" but you can work within the resolution on the human ear and brain.

"Fooling the brain" is what this hobby is all about.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 31 May 2012, 01:04 am
 
 To be fair about Ncore Buzz, it really is pretty brand new, the retail units aren't even available yet. and we're the first place to really spill over from diyaudio.
 
 I've actually brought it up on other forums and people are like, "oh yeah! I'm gonna try those too!" So just because we're the only people talking about it doesn't mean people aren't aware. They are. People are so aware Hypex has sold out of every batch so far, within hours!

 Look at how many hits the Ncore forum already has. tens and tens of thousands. And it's a brand new forum. Those are all guests stopping in to read.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 31 May 2012, 01:09 am

 That said, while we're here, I was always interested in Cherry amps, and I see they have very good specs.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Freo-1 on 31 May 2012, 01:32 am
The speakers connected to the amp have a large impact on the ear/brain interaction.  Since obtaining speakers that employ SEAS magnesium drivers, the differences in amps have become much more apparent when playing music. 
The measurements aspect on amp reviews often do not take into account the time domain aspect of the output signal, which is not trivial.
 
There was discussion on another site about whaat one hears vs. what is measured.  A gent who designed amps for many years posted some intriguing insight I would like to share here:
 
“Class A does not have the crossover distortion of AB. Designers use feedback (local or global) to eliminate that form of distortion - but since feedback takes some time in order to come into effect - you get some "open loop" crossover distortion in a transient that a simple measurement won't appear - but may be very apparent in the time domain. The sound will be DE-sweetened vs. a class A. That is a rather large effect.
 
There are other effects surrounding things like device parameters (input capacitances, diode effects, etc. depending upon the device used) that behave much better with class A than AB.
 
Also there are a couple of ways of handling the bias of class A. If the bias is "open loop" then on peaks it can break into AB (though the gain can drop a bit unless you wrap feedback around it and play games with bias level) which can affect the sound. You can also force a particular bias on a transistor "come Hell or high water" which I personally prefer - but it has its own problems, too - but this will affect the sound of Class A and why some class A stuff doesn’t sound like others.
 
Another BIG factor is how the power supply is bypassed. This is a dirty little secret on how electronics manufacturers get their "house sound" - the amount and value of capacitors on the power supply lines will have a huge impact on the sound.”
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Barry_NJ on 31 May 2012, 02:50 am
I'm excited to have a listen and compare not only to Cherry Amp technology but also to our NEW technology (will be released soon).  Just glad that Class-D is continuing to gain momentum as a superior type of power As we get ready to introduce our new class of amplifiers, we would like to know if the areas we have tweaked for are in common.

New DAC amplifier technology!?!?!? Tommy, you're a tease and I'm thoroughly intrigued. When can I hear them?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Occam on 31 May 2012, 03:11 am
Freo,

Please stop with these unattributed quotes. They're worthless. Please provide a link.
I'd very much like to read the original responses to this twaddle from someone who actually took, and passed a course in control theory.

TIA,
Paul

EDIT:
Tommy - My sincere apologies for taking the troll's bait. The unattributed quote comes from -
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=general&m=622366
Nothing new to be learned there.
I look forward to hearing your newest amps.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 31 May 2012, 03:46 am
New DAC amplifier technology!?!?!? Tommy, you're a tease and I'm thoroughly intrigued. When can I hear them?

I'll bet we will be seeing a lot of "new technology" coming out now that the ncore has raised the bar....
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 31 May 2012, 07:00 am
Tommy....see...this link... (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=3940.msg52661#msg52661).
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Freo-1 on 31 May 2012, 08:53 pm
Freo,

Please stop with these unattributed quotes. They're worthless. Please provide a link.
I'd very much like to read the original responses to this twaddle from someone who actually took, and passed a course in control theory.

TIA,
Paul

 
Paul,
The twaddle you refer to is not from the quotes, but the (over) reaction to any posts that is seen as not promoting the “best amp evea!” hype surrounding some of this gear.   :lol:
 
Go over to Audio Asylum and find a thread called “what is measured vs. what is heard”.  You will find a reasonable dialogue on the subject.  You may pick up something along the way.  ;) It's in the general area.

 
TIA
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 31 May 2012, 09:10 pm
I don't recall reading any comments to the effect that "it is the best amp ever". I have read several of your comments though were you imply that the ncore can't be as good as dozens of people have reported simply because it is a class d design. Without hearing it to boot....now that is what I call twaddle....
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 31 May 2012, 09:30 pm
 Freo is still at this stage, denial:

"As I stated in my first listen on Friday night, the biggest issue one needs to get over is the fact that they will keep up with probably any amp you compare them to.  In my system they accomplished 95-99% of what I asked them to do, and for what….like $1800??  And in many less power-hungry systems, or for many less-dynamic hungry listeners, they will likely do 100+%.  Their diminutive physical presence is almost a problem, due to bias and expectation.  It’s like hearing those great modern mini-monitors and swearing a subwoofer must be on somewhere….so you have an obstacle going in that shouldn’t be there. "

 -TedB.

 Pass Labs have already been compared and beaten, fyi.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Freo-1 on 31 May 2012, 09:36 pm
It may very well be a fine sounding amp.  I have previously stated that I would like to get around to hearing them.   However, Class D DOES have a lot of challenges to overcome, and it's very reasonable to question how one class D amp has allegedly managed to overcome all of them. 
 
There indeed have been a lot of posts implying that it is the best amp yet.  When someone argues that point and takes offense to someone pointing out that it operates in Class D,  that is considered twaddle.
 
As elegantly stated earlier, tastes are very personal in nature, so the Class D may not be for everyone.  Tubes are not for everyone, either.  Truth be told, ALL amps deviate from theoretical, and it’s those differences we debate about.  There is no absolute right or wrong, it’s a matter of tastes.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 31 May 2012, 09:41 pm
I don't think you're understanding that it appears that any challenges faced by classD might still apply to classD but not the ncore.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Freo-1 on 31 May 2012, 09:54 pm
I don't think you're understanding that it appears that any challenges faced by classD might still apply to classD but not the ncore.

With all due respect, that is BS.  Engineering challenges apply to ALL amp types, and each topology type has its own set of issues to overcome.  The Ncore did not suddenly conquer physics.  I'm sure it has elegantly addressed the issues to improve overall performance.   Still does not mean that "everyone" will like it better than anything else.  I do want to try them with my speakers and see how they perform.

BTW, comparing amps is a subjective exercise, not an objective one.  So, for any set of people that like A over B, there is another set that likes B over A. 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 31 May 2012, 10:03 pm
Well, there hasn't been anyone not liking them yet. Perhaps you will be the first.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: sts9fan on 31 May 2012, 10:06 pm
Well, there hasn't been anyone not liking them yet. Perhaps you will be the first.

You forgot the "that I have heard of"
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 31 May 2012, 10:08 pm
Hence the "yet".
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: sts9fan on 31 May 2012, 10:09 pm
Yet would refer to the fact that nobody has disliked them. You do not have that data.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: munosmario on 31 May 2012, 10:48 pm
Well, there hasn't been anyone not liking them yet. Perhaps you will be the first.

Rclark, Freo1 may "like" the Ncore but still not "prefer" it over any other amp he may have access to.  Given his system, his room, and his criteria for SQ determinants/preferences, despite his potentially liking the Ncore, Freo1 (or, for that matter, anybody else liking the Ncore over many other amps) may still prefer an specific amp of different topology or, who knows, even another class D amp like one from the Digital Amplifier Company--precisely, the subject of this thread.

munosmario
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: OzarkTom on 31 May 2012, 11:40 pm
Yet would refer to the fact that nobody has disliked them. You do not have that data.

I have read where some has listened, but liked their current amp as much or more.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 1 Jun 2012, 12:20 am
 well yeah, there's Tyson, but he didn't dislike them either. He didn't rail on about the "challenges faced by classd" as a whole. FWIW Tyson has super nice amps as well. If there was even a hint of mid-fi, he would have gone off on it.

 Even Ted, with his reservations about needing more power, suggested that bridging could perhaps make them ideal for his situation. It wasn't that he didn't like them, read the review.'

 So far there have been minor quibbles here and there, no dislike.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: JohnR on 1 Jun 2012, 12:31 am
Hey guys, Tommy asked specifically about comparisons of the Cherry amps to the NCore. Cheerleading the NCore without addressing his question is just plain rude.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: sts9fan on 1 Jun 2012, 12:32 am
It's unfair to say "pass labs has been beaten". Someone said they had heard a pass amp as one of 20+ amps in their systems. So is that all Pass Amps?
Can you give me a break down of all reviews of Ncore from the webs?
Have you heard them yet?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: jtwrace on 1 Jun 2012, 12:56 am
We are in the midst of an overhaul for our web site, but there are current specs for Cherry amps there:
www.DigitalAmp.com
(look at the product pages)

We also have a spec sheet for the original Cherry amplifier:
http://www.digitalamp.com/cherry%20measurements%20v6.pdf

Thanks for your post.
Thanks.  I look forward to the new measurements on the AP tester.   :thumb:


BTW, comparing amps is a subjective exercise, not an objective one.
Not really.  You can listen with supplied measurement data. 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: kevinh on 1 Jun 2012, 02:21 am
Looking at the Digital AMps site the Cherry can make a good $$$$/value proposition especially comparing a DIY module to a finished commercial produc.

I also like the designer seeking out the 'best' competition to compare his products to.

I will look forward to comparisons when they happen.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Freo-1 on 1 Jun 2012, 07:52 pm

Not really.  You can listen with supplied measurement data.

Respectfully disagree (slightly).  Measurements tell most of the basics, but they currently fail to adequately capture:

• How (complex) music signals behave in the time domain aspect
• Switching artifacts and how they relate in the time domain aspect
• The interaction with an actual speaker load, which also affects what one actually hears with a given amp.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 1 Jun 2012, 10:15 pm

• The interaction with an actual speaker load, which also affects what one actually hears with a given amp.

Most manufacturers will provide a frequency response vs load plot. Ncore is essentially flat. I haven't seen the plot for the Cherry amp series....
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Sonny on 1 Jun 2012, 10:21 pm
removed to error...
apologies
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: fredgarvin on 1 Jun 2012, 10:53 pm
Funny that RH from Asolute Sound just had an editorial report on measurements and how objective vs subjective listening.... take a look:
http://www.avguide.com/forums/blind-listening-tests-are-flawed-editorial (http://www.avguide.com/forums/blind-listening-tests-are-flawed-editorial)

I thought the rebuttal was more accurate in describing the reality:

First of all, you are correct, "indistinguishable" does, indeed, mean that NO audible difference exists between 16-bit, 44.1 KHz digital and the High Resolution formats. I have been doing a lot of recording lately and I have had ample opportunity to test 16-bit, 44.1KHz digital quantization against both 24-bit, 96KHz and 32-bit (fp), 192 Khz quantization. Playback directly from the computer (through the same DAC/ADC with which the recording was made) yielded no audible difference to a listening panel of 5 audiophiles. Also, no audible difference was detected between the high-resolution recording and the SAME recording output as 16-bit, 44.1KHz Red Book and burned to CD. The CD was also played back through the same DAC/ADC as through which the recording was made in order to keep variables low.

Secondly, you are wrong to characterize those who value double-blind or ABX testing as being mostly supported by "...Partisan hacks, bent on discrediting audiophiles. " I too was skeptical of the so-called "double-blind" test until I started to participate in some of them. My first encounter was with a group of audiophiles using a home-made ABX setup to audition two very high-end power amplifiers. It was bad enough when the tests revealed that no one could reliably tell when the controller (sitting in another room and switching or not switching amps every 30 seconds by the clock while a number of different types of music were played) switched or didn't switch or to which amplifier she had switched (she didn't know which was which either. Sometimes she would switch at the appointed time, sometimes not. We listeners never knew). The end result was that statistically, the 6 listeners got it right about 50% (give or take a few percentage points) of the time. In other words, blind chance. When the same experiment was repeated using one of the expensive amps and a much cheaper amp of similar power and the same results were obtained it did seem that all modern amps sound the same. This brings me to point three.

Scientists use ABX and double-blind testing for things other than audio (you mentioned pharmaceuticals) for a good reason. If such tests reveal no differences, its because there are no differences. Whether the device under test is a pair of amplifiers, a set of cables, or a 16-bit, 44.1 KHz digital recording vs. a 24-bit, 192 KHz digital recording of the same performance or a new "wonder drug". If the test is properly set-up and the results are that there is no NOTICEABLE difference between the two units in question (or the test subject and the control), then it stands to reason a difference which makes no difference is no difference at all. But something here strikes me as even more important. If the differences that we are talking about here are so subtle that a direct A-B comparison does not illuminate them, does this also not say that we are engaged in counting angels on the head of a pin (I leave it to you to decide whether these are "recording angels"javascript:emoticon(':wink:'))

I don't pretend to be able to explain your European radio CODEC story, but obviously something was wrong if no one in a listening test heard a 1.5 KHz noise in the program material. Perhaps the panels weren't given more than a few seconds to hear each sample, I don't know, but it would seem to me that anyone would be able to hear a non-correlated 1.5 KHz tone in a musical performance if given ample time (no more than a few seconds) to focus in on it.

George Graves
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: golfugh on 1 Jun 2012, 11:00 pm
How did Tommy's request for comparisons of his amps to the Ncores turn into a diatribe on blind listening tests, etc.?

This is his circle BTW
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Sonny on 1 Jun 2012, 11:01 pm
How did Tommy's request for comparisons of his amps to the Ncores turn into a diatribe on blind listening tests, etc.?

Sorry, that was my mistake, I posted the wrong link...I will remove...
 :duh:
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: jtwrace on 2 Jun 2012, 12:40 am

Respectfully disagree (slightly).  Measurements tell most of the basics, but they currently fail to adequately capture:

• How (complex) music signals behave in the time domain aspect
• Switching artifacts and how they relate in the time domain aspect
• The interaction with an actual speaker load, which also affects what one actually hears with a given amp.

This is quite interesting http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58526.msg520319#msg520319

Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 2 Jun 2012, 07:09 am
That whole DIY ncore thread is just loaded with similar Putzey insights. It's one of the reasons I'm charging headlong into this new amp. He is just one of the smartest and most well spoken developers I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Barry_NJ on 25 Jun 2012, 04:38 pm
Here's one from a Cherry owner...

I spent a few days with the Ncore's prior to dropping them off for Rich's get together. The basics of my system includes Danley SH50 horns, DAC Stereo Cherry amp, DEQX, Wyred 4 Sound passive Pre-amp.  My rig is a 2 channel/home theater combo system and I mostly use an Oppo BDP-95 SE for all digital media to keep things simple.  If pressed I say I'd prefer tubes over SS but can't deal with all that goes into owning a truly worthwhile pair of tubes that ticks all the boxes. For several years I've been looking for that just right SS amp.  I've tried a few of the ICE Power, Class D variants and enjoyed them all to varying degrees.  I simply wish to find a competent, low maintenance, high power amp.  So the Ncores are the latest to peak my interest based upon the Hypex reputation and the great word of mouth here.  I echo much of what's been said already, nothing really new to report.  I liked the Ncores even handedness from top to bottom.  Very tight focused and articulate bass, transparent mid-range and clean non-exaggerated highs. A very reassuring amp to say the least.  Great at all volumes and kept its composure when pushed hard.  Kept pretty much the same character at whispering levels as at room filling levels.  A very articulate amp all around, a nicely refined and focused sound stage with good instrument placement and separation.  Again, nothing new here so I would say that the essence of the amp is pretty well documented and I agree with much of it.

On my high efficiency horns (100dB) I can say the Ncores were quiet and well composed and were a good match with no harshness or digital nastiness that was offensive to my ears but then again I'm not as sensitive to those things as others may be or maybe I'm just more forgiving.  Very clean, crisp, refined and neutral sound. A pretty dynamic combo, excellent control, transient response and overall speed making for a controlled yet exciting presentation.  If you like Class D then there's isn't much not to like.  Exciting to think about bridging these for 1200 watts or so on my speakers, wow that would be nice in many ways.

As far as how the Ncores compare to my resident Cherry Amp, I did not do a lot of A-B evaluation, that's not my thing so much these days.  I did it once or twice but mostly I dropped the Ncores in and just listened for a few days.  It was one reason why I took my Cherry Amp to Richidoo's audio meet so more A-B listening could be done.  Not as much time as I would have liked was slotted for that comparison but it seems a general opinion was gathered.  Personally, I am very happy with the Cherry amp and it fits my system and tastes well.  In my system I found the Cherry to be warmer, more robust through the bass and midrange, a bit more dynamic and vibrant sounding.  The Ncores sounded cooler, a touch more refined and a bit more precise (monoblocks vs stereo?).  The Cherry seemed to have a bit larger sound stage left to right to front, the Ncore a more defined sound stage and maybe a touch more depth.  The Cherry may project into the room more and sound a little more forceful.  Rich commented the Cherry sounded like a good clean Push Pull tube amp with massive balls and I can agree with that analogy in the context of Class D.  I find the Cherry to be the best compromise I've heard between tubes and SS in my systems.  My speakers have dual 12 inch bass drivers per side and both amps just pound in the low registers, the Ncores a bit leaner and cleaner and I pushed them ear hurtin' hard and they just kept their composure and played the music louder as it should be.  The Cherry pounds a little harder and when pushed just keeps on pounding harder as if plenty of reserve is on tap. I could not get the Ncores to duplicate that to the same degree but then again in the different room and set up such a thing could be too much. The Ncores and Cherry seemed to sound pretty similar all in all and it may be a system synergy thing as to which one might fit best for people.  If I did not own a Cherry amp, I would likely buy a Ncore, possibly bridge it and ride off into the sunset.  It did pretty much everything I'd need for sound and practicality and mated well with my system.

Thanks Jason for squeezing me on tour and extending yourself in this way to allow us to spend some personal time with some really fine amps and for many could be the last amp they need to buy.


And one from another site, by someone who owns neither... (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=3940.msg53306#msg53306)
Quote from: richidoo
Chris, I liked the NCore for precision, accuracy, merciless grip at all freqs. It doesn't have as violent transients as Spectron or Levinson 53, but still very impressive overall from the audiophile's "absolute sound" perspective. It seemed more musical than those other 2 technical marvels, while also simpler, smaller, lighter cheaper. It did not suffer Rick's older version DEQX pre/processor well, exaggerating the edginess of that pre. Sol thinks it sounded like OP2134 opamps characteristic buzz, he is pretty accurate guessing chips and transistor part numbers by ear.  With my Buffalo DAC there was no edge with NCore, but a few people still felt a trace of class D sizzle form NCore, even with the Buffalo. Eric's DAC amp (original stereo Cherry) reminded me of a clean PP tube amp with massive balls. The adjective most frequently heard among the guys was fat or phat depending on who said it. Fat from those who prefer accuracy and did not like the richening the Cherry added. I thought it was phat because it added flesh to the tone, rounded the edges a little compared to NCore, and seemed to tip bass response up a couple dB. It had a darker, richer sound that I liked better than NCore on the Ewave and especially on the DTQWT, while the Ncore sounded better to me on the Polks (we didn't play that combo at the meet.)  It is weird that the NCore sounded better to me on the Polks than the Cherry, because the general agreement was that the Polks sounded top heavy on all of the other amps. But the NCore made the bass sound so great on the Polks maybe that allowed me to focus less on the highs.

We only listened to Richard's NAD M2, only on the DTQWT, and only after most people had split, and the match was not great. The Cherry blew away the NCore and M2 on the easy load, high efficiency DTQWT speakers, perfect match. I'm not sure we analyzed that combo, but I was playing it at the very beginning when people were first arriving, and even my wife commented how great it sounded. She said what speakers are these? The ones I built last summer... Hmmm. Uh oh! Maybe I just needed a different amp instead of 2 more DIY speakers.  :duh   :rofl:

But Sol's newest version i30, with <1/10 power than Cherry, was pretty much in the same class as Cherry on those speakers. It was a very nice match. Unfortunately we discovered that too late with only me Sol and Giyan still around to hear it. Magic hour came too late! We'll remember it for next time.

There was so much that we didn't get to do, so it will be fun to reassemble these amps again in the near future for a rematch, with better (passive xo) speakers, more flexible schedules and less speaker swapping. Fortunately these amps all live in NC and everyone wants to do it again sometime. Shane and I are about to dive into SEOS builds this summer hopefully one of those will prove a worthy victim of class D abuse. Shane has a true monster speaker planned.

Gene was tired toward the end, but some rare premium Lee Morgan (Take Twelve album) stoked his coals for a few minutes, and Bill hung in there to the bitter end. We all enjoyed their visit, and hope their threats to come again come true. 

I promised some CD copies but the CD-R blanks were not where they are supposed to be, so I will mail those out.

Gene, I didn't even know there was Hampton Inn in Holly Springs, glad you found it on your own. Pics coming...
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: OzarkTom on 25 Jun 2012, 11:57 pm
That makes real me excited about the new Cherry amp with a possible battery supply. :D
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Freo-1 on 26 Jun 2012, 01:19 am
This is quite interesting http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58526.msg520319#msg520319 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58526.msg520319#msg520319)

 
Thanks.  (Some interesting observations)  Having said that, still does not fully address how a given amp will actually work with complex music signals into an actual speaker load (especially in the time domain aspect, which is where many amps fall short).  That is where Class A amps have traditionally held sway in the market.
 
I will one day get my hands on an Ncore amp pair (and perhaps a Cherry as well) so I can hear them for myself.  A lot of folks here obviously hold them in very high regard, so they are doing something very right. 
 
For the time being, the 1000 watt Class D in my Servo subwoofer is working just fine! 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Barry_NJ on 26 Jun 2012, 07:39 pm
And another comment/er from that session...

Yeah nice review, good to meet you over at Rich's also! On the limited back to back comparison I was liking the cherry also. It had a fatter tone to it compared to the ncore, but I like it! Sounded more realistic on the set up we were using at that time.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Charles Xavier on 26 Jun 2012, 08:34 pm
And another comment/er from that session...



You on the payroll ?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: fredgarvin on 26 Jun 2012, 08:56 pm
And another comment/er from that session...

Thanks for bringing in some reviews and opinions, as the thread asked for.  :D
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Cheeseboy on 26 Jun 2012, 09:25 pm
I'm excited about what I'm reading about the ncore amps.  I haven't read every single post to date.  It's a hot topic!  What I did read make me interested in moving over to mono blocks.  It also confirms that I did make a great purchase from DAC.  "a good clean push/pull tube amp with balls"  Thats what I like about my Cherry.  That is what put me on the DAC doorstep.  Technology is moving at light speed in the "digital amp domain".   I hope that the new Cherry Technology goes on tour in a mono block fashion.  I'd like to see what I'm missing with mono blocks.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: gprro on 26 Jun 2012, 11:14 pm
And another comment/er from that session...

Hey, that was my quote :D! If anything, playing with a bunch of very good equipment all day, you learn system compatibility/synergy is super important, and in home auditions are best if you can do it. On a source or speakers that were darker or rolled off, or fatter, the ncore probably would have sounded more natural. Late at night we were wondering if there was some voicing in the cherry to fatten it up a little, or a very slight roll off on top to possibly( note possibly here, not saying this is happening) pretty up any stereotypical "digital" amp sound. I will say i was impressed by both as digital amp technology. The cherry did have some nice tube like tone-in a good way, great bass, though it was missing a little of that pocket of air in the soundstage or feel of bringing the actual venue into your space that only the tubes did that day. Nice time for digital amps I guess...Actually wish we could have spent more time with the ncores. I think with vinyl and the arc pre they would have been awesome-er.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: launche on 27 Jun 2012, 03:56 pm
I won't get much into the "air" thing or maybe a sense of space and ambiance etc...  For me so many factors come into play for those things to manifest themselves well.  Personally, after hearing a very well tuned system incorporating Maggie 20's and dorm refrigerator sized amps in a large room with very high ceilings (as many of us I'm sure have) I pretty much shelved the whole idea of significant "air, space, ambiance, sound staging etc..." in my own systems unless I had similar room conditions.  By comparison most everything else I've heard in most normal listening environments is an undeniable and unavoidable compromise.  So I don't really have those things as serious system goals or speak of it with any real meaning except as a point of notation and general context.
I'm a bass guy (which is no easy task either) but not an obnoxious bass guy. I like the music to be presented with a solid foundation if intended but I don't need my room shuddering or dry wall flexing.  I can't help it when I listen to most music my natural tendency is to want to feel grounded and tap into the pulse of the music.  The Cherry does fine with air in my systems but it's not its standout feature.  The tonal palette is shifted slightly lower, comes off as a little less detailed or resolving than the hyper-detailed type of amp.  All good things for my ears.  Some amps may lean toward being light, airy and you can marvel at all the sparkles and ambiance in the presentation.  The Cherry seems to have a slightly lower sense of gravity and seems to help the system catch onto a groove/bass line, lay it down like a warm blanket and let you ride the rhythm of the music first and foremost.  Maybe instead of illuminating the air up there as much it draws attention to the potential rhythmic flow and bass textures.  Everything else is there and blended well to paint a whole sonic picture without the inclination to pick apart the sound. 

I also found in my system the Cherry to present a higher sound stage vs the Ncore which brought things lower and into a bit tigher focus.
Again these are just fun impressions and nothing to be taken as gospel. Audio is not my profession so I don't take it that seriously, I get just as much satisfaction listening in my car or Ipod.  For any hobbyist looking to spend these insane prices on hi-fi gear I feel it helpful at times to add to the community.  For small vendors who don't want or can't spend on fancy marketing I feel it helpful to share some thoughts.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Cheeseboy on 27 Jun 2012, 04:39 pm
And I love the quote.  It nails the Cherry well. 

It's all about synergy.  System Synergy, Room Synergy and Significant Other Synergy. 

I know my system can sound very close to what was described.  Maggie 20's, great room and amps the size of texas.  Everytime my wife travels the speakers get pulled out into the room, the room treatments come out of the garage, one of the chairs goes into the garage and then that magic sound can happen. 

Parttime Synergy
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 27 Jun 2012, 05:07 pm
Very nicely written launche. If anything, you definitely have a great choice of words and prose to engage your reader - I can practically hear through your well delineated descriptions. Maybe a 6moons career?

Thanks,
Anand.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: jtwrace on 27 Jun 2012, 05:11 pm
Very nicely written launche. If anything, you definitely have a great choice of words and prose to engage your reader - I can practically hear through your well delineated descriptions. Maybe a 6moons career?

Thanks,
Anand.
I agree and he's a super cool guy.   :thumb:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=86403.msg958393#msg958393
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Cheeseboy on 27 Jun 2012, 09:26 pm
Wow, that is another great write up.  I have to agree with the points he is making about "Everyman Audio".   Later in the thread someone make a reference to the GR Research Super V and the GedLee speaker set up.  If  one can take the room out of the equation with a system approach like these then audiophile sound just might be attainable for all.  I have heard what open baffle bass does in minimizing room effects in the low end via the Super V.  This write up made me want to hear a GedLee swarm bass system.  It resonated with me greatly. 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 3 Jul 2012, 04:42 pm
Quite possibly the best summaries so far ....

by AC member "launche":
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1104756#msg1104756

"The Cherry pounds a little harder and when pushed just keeps on pounding harder as if plenty of reserve is on tap. I could not get the Ncores to duplicate that to the same degree"

by AC member "gprro":
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1105160#msg1105160

"I was liking the cherry also. It had a fatter tone to it compared to the ncore, but I like it! Sounded more realistic on the set up we were using at that time"

by AC member "Rclark":
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1105201#msg1105201

"the Cherry is potentially one of the very few amps that can hang"
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Jul 2012, 05:10 pm
by AC member "Rclark":
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1105201#msg1105201

"the Cherry is potentially one of the very few amps that can hang"
Yeah, too bad he has never heard either amp....

Exactly. What I got out of it is that the Cherry is potentially one of the very few amps that can hang, provided the reporting was accurate, not that everyone else was lying.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: fredgarvin on 3 Jul 2012, 05:37 pm
Gotta love those Cherries! And more Cherry to come.

Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Jul 2012, 05:39 pm
How nice of you to drop in.
My pleasure.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: fredgarvin on 3 Jul 2012, 05:43 pm
Keep those plums coming, Cherry lovers!
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 3 Jul 2012, 09:08 pm
Yeah, too bad he has never heard either amp....
Really?  Do you know that for sure?  I'm surprised to hear this.  No pun intended....
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 3 Jul 2012, 10:12 pm
 Sorry to let you down, but don't skim when you read!

full sentence "What I got out of it is that the Cherry is potentially one of the very few amps that can hang, provided the reporting was accurate, not that everyone else was lying."

 I have to buy one piece at a time, I'm not yet packing the bankroll of these other guys. New preamp, HTCoz case, Ncores, in that order.

  ...but since you do have everyone's attention, and a new amp coming out, and you clearly want to be seen as competitive to the Ncore, might as well bring everything to the table and show us all the obligatory performance specs and charts, and tell everyone what your goals are sonically. Is this a flavored piece (pun intended) or straight wire?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Cheeseboy on 4 Jul 2012, 07:38 pm
So I'm still in the dark here.  Have you heard either of these amps? 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: jackman on 4 Jul 2012, 08:09 pm
Really?  Do you know that for sure?  I'm surprised to hear this.  No pun intended....

I'm sure you are a great amp designer but I'd strongly advise to stay far away from anything written by Rclark about your products (or any product or subject for that matter). This guy wets his panties over every hot and trendy new product (see the Optomom preamp thread).  He is frequently known to have strong opinions and even argue about products he has never heard. I would avoid the likes of Rclark like the plague.  Run away, don't walk.

Cheers

Jack
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 4 Jul 2012, 08:15 pm
 The Octocoupler is an awesome product. You're still welcome to borrow it and try it out. Not exactly sure why you have such a hard on for that topic.

 I think if you've seen my recent reviews you know that I'm pretty darned honest.

 And.. didn't get asked to be misquoted and dragged into this thread just to go through this crap all over again.

 I want the Ncores! So what? Who doesn't?

 Meh.

 Anyway, my questions still stand, despite this diversion. Now that we're here. Measurements?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: jackman on 4 Jul 2012, 09:12 pm
It appears he cut and pasted your actual quote.  I'm not sure if that qualifies as misquoting.  Anyway, if he followed your posts, the guy probably assumed you actually heard the Ncore because you have posted so much "stuff" about the amp and have such a strong opinion about it. I've never seen a person get so worked up about something he has never heard. It's even more rediculous than a person annointing a preamp as a "world beater" because it bested the digital volun control of his entry level DAC.

For the record, I've already listened to the optocoupler in my system and did not feel it was in the same league as my current preamp. Just an opinion, but it's based on actual listening, not wild conjecture and assumptions.  I've also listened to the Ncores and thought they sounded good.  Will post in the listening  impressions thread when it's unlocked.  I look forward to an Ncore Cherry comparison.

Cheers

Jack
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 4 Jul 2012, 09:29 pm
well, he clearly cut and pasted, and then cut some more, if you read my entire post from which it was taken. I'm very careful these days to use language that is clear. I'm just an enthusiast talking about hardware I will soon own. I don't have a hifi shop close by, and none of my friends are into stereos, yet, so this is my source of information and conversation.

Interesting note on the opto, I've only had a few different pre's to compare it to so far. Sept I'll have a 4th, when it launches. If it gets beaten I may try and keep it is as a gain control. And it wasn't me who said that, the Opto was compared to more than a few.

I look forward to a comparison of Ncore and Cherry as well, the more I get into this hobby, the more I'm willing to spend.

However, I would expect that any amp now is going to have to publish the same measurements. I wouldn't feel happy anymore with subjective only accounts, considering the measurements shown with Ncore.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Barry_NJ on 4 Jul 2012, 09:36 pm
I don't listen to measurements, so while they should be relatively good, I still make a purchasing decision based on how a product sounds, preferably in my system...
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 4 Jul 2012, 09:50 pm
Absolutely, ultimately that is the best way. Enjoy the 4th! It is a stunning day here, and time to go play outside.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: OzarkTom on 4 Jul 2012, 09:53 pm
I don't listen to measurements, so while they should be relatively good, I still make a purchasing decision based on how a product sounds, preferably in my system...

+1

Measurements don't mean a hill-of-a-bean if it sounds lousy.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 4 Jul 2012, 10:59 pm
And if it measures as well as the ncore I doubt it will sound lousy....
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: OzarkTom on 4 Jul 2012, 11:22 pm
And if it measures as well as the ncore I doubt it will sound lousy....

So what measurements do I look at to see how it images, musicality, transparency, quickness?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Jul 2012, 12:12 am
And if it measures as well as the ncore I doubt it will sound lousy....

And if every amp made measures .000000000000000001% distortion, are you saying they will all sound the same? :scratch:
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 5 Jul 2012, 12:23 am
Define your subjective parameters, i.e., musical, quick, etc., in an objective context of an audio signal and I will oblige....
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 5 Jul 2012, 12:25 am

No, I am saying that if an amp measures as well as the ncore it is likely to not sound "lousy".
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Jul 2012, 12:30 am
Define your subjective parameters, i.e., musical, quick, etc., in an objective context of an audio signal and I will oblige....

I just want to know what measurement I should look at to let me know what the amp is capable of in these sonic parameters. You are so keen on measurements. So do you know?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 5 Jul 2012, 12:32 am
How can I possibly tell you if you can't define these subjective parameters in an objective way?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Jul 2012, 12:44 am
Forget it, no one knows what measurement to look at to tell these sonic parameters. You have to listen to it in your system.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 5 Jul 2012, 01:01 am
Exactly, you can't judge subjective parameters that have an exact meaning known only to you with objective measurements. What does "musicality" or "quickness" mean? Can you define them precisely? I don't think so....Not everyone will like an amp as neutral as the ncore....that doesn't mean the amp is lousy, it just means some people prefer a colored presentation. An amp that measures as good as the ncore will probably sound similar to the ncore- that is, it won't have much of a sound at all. Such an amp can hardly be said to sound "lousy".....

Try reading some of Bruno Putzkey's comments on the relevance of measurements. Here is a start:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/bruno-putzeys-the-sound-of-music-extended-play (http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/bruno-putzeys-the-sound-of-music-extended-play)
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Jul 2012, 01:31 am
Exactly, you can't judge subjective parameters that have an exact meaning known only to you with objective measurements. What does "musicality" or "quickness" mean? Can you define them precisely? I don't think so....Not everyone will like an amp as neutral as the ncore....that doesn't mean the amp is lousy, it just means some people prefer a colored presentation. An amp that measures as good as the ncore will probably sound similar to the ncore- that is, it won't have much of a sound at all. Such an amp can hardly be said to sound "lousy".....

Try reading some of Bruno Putzkey's comments on the relevance of measurements. Here is a start:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/bruno-putzeys-the-sound-of-music-extended-play (http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/bruno-putzeys-the-sound-of-music-extended-play)

Sorry, I don't listen to colored amps. :D
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: cab on 5 Jul 2012, 01:35 am
Sometimes the lawnmower is hard to start.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Cheeseboy on 24 Jul 2012, 10:13 pm
I'd like to hear the Hypex amps.  Then I can comment on how they sound to me.  Then I can compare them to my Cherry and the rest of the gear in my system.   I have found many amps lacking the smooth interpretation i like in the high frequency range. 

The article was interesting reading.  As an engineer he should be proud of his feat acheiving an extremely low distortion level.  I bought an integrated amp many years ago that had 100 times less distortion than any others at the time.  It did not make it the best sounding amp on the market.  Acording to Brunos logic that should have been the case.  It did show an improvement over other products in the same price point.  It was a good value product.  Certainly not the best.   I purchased from Digital Amp Company because it was that type of product that also had system synergy with the rest of my gear.   

When all the hype has slowed with Hypex I'm sure I can get a listen.

Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: ua100k on 14 Sep 2012, 02:58 am
I'd like to hear the Hypex amps.  Then I can comment on how they sound to me.  Then I can compare them to my Cherry and the rest of the gear in my system.   I have found many amps lacking the smooth interpretation i like in the high frequency range. 

The article was interesting reading.  As an engineer he should be proud of his feat acheiving an extremely low distortion level.  I bought an integrated amp many years ago that had 100 times less distortion than any others at the time.  It did not make it the best sounding amp on the market.  Acording to Brunos logic that should have been the case.  It did show an improvement over other products in the same price point.  It was a good value product.  Certainly not the best.   I purchased from Digital Amp Company because it was that type of product that also had system synergy with the rest of my gear.   

When all the hype has slowed with Hypex I'm sure I can get a listen.

Where are you located. I have a pair of prototype Merrill Audio VERITAS Hypex Ncore NC1200 (yes, I had to say the whole thing) Mono Blocks.
It will be fun to have a shootout.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: jackman on 14 Sep 2012, 03:23 am
Where are you located. I have a pair of prototype Merrill Audio VERITAS Hypex Ncore NC1200 (yes, I had to say the whole thing) Mono Blocks.
It will be fun to have a shootout.

How about identifying yourself as a distributor or manufacturer when you post in another guy's circle? 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: satfrat on 14 Sep 2012, 03:26 am
Where are you located. I have a pair of prototype Merrill Audio VERITAS Hypex Ncore NC1200 (yes, I had to say the whole thing) Mono Blocks.
It will be fun to have a shootout.

According to Cheeseboy's profile, he's from Somoma, Ca., a bit of a stretch from Jersey.  :green:
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: ua100k on 14 Sep 2012, 11:04 am
How about identifying yourself as a distributor or manufacturer when you post in another guy's circle?

Sorry. Merrill Audio from NJ. Tommy knows me and has been at my place.
My profile has been submitted already for change since I changed my role as well. This is waiting for administrator to change the profile. 

I did include the change on my profile so you should be able to see the reference to the company at least till the administrator changes it to Industry something.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: ua100k on 14 Sep 2012, 11:07 am
Haven't had a chance to read through this entire thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1095143;topicseen#new

I requested that anyone who has had the chance to A/B compare with Cherry Amps post about it, but nothing yet....

Seems we may have opened the door to tweaking Class-D for sound as opposed to bench measurements.

I'm excited to have a listen and compare not only to Cherry Amp technology but also to our NEW technology (will be released soon).  Just glad that Class-D is continuing to gain momentum as a superior type of power delivery.

Please let us know if you've had the chance to hear ncore amps and what you think its strengths are.  As we get ready to introduce our new class of amplifiers, we would like to know if the areas we have tweaked for are in common.

Thanks, and looking forward to your responses....

-Tommy O

Tommy, maybe we can do a shootout at your place?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: doug s. on 15 Sep 2012, 06:06 am
How about identifying yourself as a distributor or manufacturer when you post in another guy's circle?

didn't you see under his moniker that he states he's an industry participant, as well as having a link to his merrill audio website?

doug s.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: ua100k on 15 Sep 2012, 10:05 am
didn't you see under his moniker that he states he's an industry participant, as well as having a link to his merrill audio website?

doug s.

In fairness, that was just done either late yesterday or today. Prior to that it was in a pending state of approval on my side and showing Jr. on the public side.  Glad it is all showing up now.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: jackman on 15 Sep 2012, 01:05 pm
didn't you see under his moniker that he states he's an industry participant, as well as having a link to his merrill audio website?

doug s.

I know how to read and it wasn't there until after I mentioned it.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: doug s. on 15 Sep 2012, 03:33 pm
In fairness, that was just done either late yesterday or today. Prior to that it was in a pending state of approval on my side and showing Jr. on the public side.  Glad it is all showing up now.

oops.   :oops:  when i logged on to the thread, it's what i saw.  in any ewent, i am glad it's all good now.

doug s.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Cheeseboy on 18 Oct 2012, 01:39 pm
Just saw the request for a side by side. I'm available if you are.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: fredgarvin on 19 Oct 2012, 01:31 am
Why is it the same half dozen clowns crapping on every thread? Oh, it's the measurement fail.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 19 Oct 2012, 02:55 am
Just saw the request for a side by side. I'm available if you are.

Please let me know if we can set up a rave for this purpose at my place (Allentown, PA) during November. I might have my new boards by then, too.  Thanks.

Tommy
 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: ua100k on 19 Oct 2012, 11:01 am
Sorry guys I am out of amps.

Next production stock will be Dec 1st.

Can we have the rave in mid Dec? That will give me 2 weeks to burn in the new pair of amps.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Cheeseboy on 19 Oct 2012, 06:20 pm
We have a very good core of audiophile that meet quite often. We just finished a grg and had Melody as a guest. We were able to listen to several tube amps and the pb 101 pre amp. They were inserted into a very capable system. Anytime you would like us to put a meet together for yourself and Tommy from DAC or come solo we could accommodate you. We are in the bay area and would enjoy listening to your hypex monos.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: ua100k on 23 Oct 2012, 12:24 pm
Ohh, I would like that however location is a bit of a problem. Perhaps I could do something locally and have the feedback to you. I will check with Tommy for the rave date.

South California has a pair of Mono blocks if you are up to a bit of travel and the other party agrees.

Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Barry_NJ on 23 Oct 2012, 09:04 pm
I will check with Tommy for the rave date.


I believe that there will be both Cherry and Veratas amplifiers at the Rave on November 3rd.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: munosmario on 25 Oct 2012, 03:35 pm
Tommy, send you PM on other subject.

All the best,

Mario
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: ua100k on 25 Oct 2012, 08:33 pm
I believe that there will be both Cherry and Veratas amplifiers at the Rave on November 3rd.

Sweet. Mikes electric bill will double after the night is over!
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Barry_NJ on 25 Oct 2012, 08:49 pm
Sweet. Mikes electric bill will double after the night is over!

Nah... These are Switching amps not Class "A"  :P
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Rclark on 25 Oct 2012, 09:05 pm
^ one of the best parts.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: seadogs1 on 26 Oct 2012, 12:26 pm
How about including a class A tube amp in the mix?
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: munosmario on 26 Oct 2012, 01:09 pm
Tommy, send you PM on other subject.

All the best,

Mario

Thanks, Tommy, got your response...sent you one more PM asking for a clarification/confirmation.

Mario
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Cheeseboy on 26 Oct 2012, 11:13 pm
Ohh, I would like that however location is a bit of a problem. Perhaps I could do something locally and have the feedback to you. I will check with Tommy for the rave date.

South California has a pair of Mono blocks if you are up to a bit of travel and the other party agrees.

Sorry I'm on the road for work. If the party in So Cal does a get together I would surely be interested in trying to be there. 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: munosmario on 29 Oct 2012, 03:32 pm
Hope all is well, Tommy. This one is a repeat of my  Oct 25th post--I know you are rather busy but in case you have a moment....

"Thanks, Tommy, got your response...sent you one more PM asking for a clarification/confirmation. Mario"
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 16 Dec 2012, 11:38 pm
Please let me know if we can set up a rave for this purpose at my place (Allentown, PA) during November. I might have my new boards by then, too.  Thanks.

Tommy
 

Now thinking of January/February for an Allentown, PA rave.....
Who would be able to make the drive?
Is there someone that can bring ncore amps for A/B comparison?

Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: ua100k on 19 Dec 2012, 07:36 pm
I may some stock if you do this in Feb.

This will give you a chance to have the new amps ready also.

Jan production is almost all spoken for, so cannot do anything in Jan.

Let me know the dates and if it is happening and I will put some aside.

www.merrillaudio.com - VERITAS Monoblocks.  see the site for more details on the Monoblocks.
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: rollo on 19 Dec 2012, 08:10 pm
  Hey guys can we join the party with our Arion hybrid class D amps ??? Sorry to butt in Tommy Ole boy I'll bring the Lemoncello


charles
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: Cheeseboy on 19 Dec 2012, 08:33 pm
Interesting concept.  Class D Hybrid design.  I really like my Cherry with the tubes in a preamp up front.  I'd like to hear that amp.  Lemme know if it gets to Nor Cal. 
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 10 Jan 2016, 04:28 pm
If you've always wanted a Maraschino or Classic Cherry Amp, here's your chance:
http://kck.st/1NWutrj

Please let me know if you can provide a comparison.  Not limited to nCore comarisons, but they seem to be the only Class-D competing with Cherry.

By the way, even if you don't want to pick up the DAC DAC or a Cherry amp, please consider pledging $1 to our Kickstarter.  Just $1 gets us another backer on our team, and we're trying to get to 100 backers by Wednesday.

Thanks, all.  Have a great Sunday!

-Tommy O
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 May 2017, 02:41 am
Our Maraschino Video Series Kickstarter runs until May 13 (Eastern time zone)!  A great selection of rewards including:

    Stereo Maraschino
    Classic Cherry Motherboard Upgrade (Maraschino Sonics with Much Power)
    External Linear Toroidal Power Supply for Maraschino
    USB to SPDIF converter
    DAC DAC (both HS and TL types)
    Golden Cherry
    "Megaschino" - Classic Cherry on the outside, Maraschino on the inside
    MORE!


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/378044010/maraschino-video-series
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 1 Jun 2017, 03:15 am
Some simple answers to common related questions....

Q: Why haven't I heard of Cherry Amplifiers or Digital Amplifier Company before?
A: In a word, ADVERTISING.  We do almost none of it.  Why?  More value for our customers.  Same goes with trade shows.  Here's a little something about the company, and about ME:
http://positive-feedback.com/interviews/tommy-obrien-digital-amplifier-co/

Q: Why are Cherry Amplifiers different?
A: We design for sonics.  Our impressive bench measurements may be a few dB less here and there than the "competition", but very much world class.  Number one is the sound for us.

Q: Are Class-AB or Class-A amps better than Class-D?
A: In some cases, yes, but Class-D can achieve higher levels of sonic performance when done right, aside from some extreme cases in analog amps (the $100k, 300 lb variety?).  However, within reasonable cost constraints, well designed Class-D can outperform conventional amplifiers in every respect that matters for listening.  The problem is that almost all Class-D suffers from a serious design flaw.

Q: What is this serious Class-D design flaw you speak of?
A: Simply put, control.  Technically, feedback control/topology.  The sad truth is that almost every Class-D designer uses gobs and GOBS of negative feedback and/or complex phase shifting networks to get decent, and sometimes deceivingly amazing bench measurements.  Most audiophiles know the difference between sonic performance and bench measurements, but the misconception of better measurements tending to mean better sound is no coincidence.  Old fashioned amplifiers were much easier to tell apart that way.

Q: Why do you (Cherry Amplifier®) claim better sound than other Class-D amps?
A: Our designs, which are home-grown, are first put together with ideal component values to get noise and distortion well below audible levels, then we tweak the circuits for sonic improvement.  This usually costs us a little bit in the specifications, but is a tremendous advantage sonically.  The other reason is that we DO NOT use gobs of feedback.  We DO NOT use complex phase compensation networks.  Instead, we make our output circuits well controlled and we make our output filters inaudible.  This way, we don't need to put a massive feedback loop around the amplifier, which is the way just about everybody else is doing it, even today after the lessons the 1980s taught us.  Fact is, most Class-D designers weren't designers back in the 1980s.  Not to age myself, but I was, and I remember the strident and screechy sound of the old Adcom Class-AB amps with their obscene amounts of corrective feedback.  Remember that feedback can't correct for errors that already happened, so it changes the future signal such that the average over time adds up to approximately the desired signal.  Did you catch that?  The error happens, then the counter error happens, and all this is going into your speaker, then into your ears!

If you enjoyed this post, feel free to ask for more of the same.  Believe me, I could go on and on and on....

-Tommy O
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 4 Apr 2018, 02:16 am
This is from a recent article in 6moons....

"Despite their spectacular S/N ratio, the highly damped nCore amps with their copious use of negative feedback clamp down prematurely on these faintest of HF decays. They also obscure certain upper harmonic occurrences altogether unless I increase overall SPL to have them resurface. Here the affordable €1'200 50wpc class A/B Mosfet Stello amp is demonstrably superior. By roughly the same distance, the Liszt monos exceeded the little Korean on the inverted ceramic tweeters. The explanation could be their exploded bandwidth with a resultant lack of phase shift in the audible range; and less extreme damping factor than the nCores. Though certain switch-mode amps do have very good treble for class D—Digital Amplifier Company's Maraschino comes to mind...."
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 9 Apr 2021, 03:12 am
Upgrade from "VTV AMPLIFIER Stereo Hypex NC502MP NCore 500WX2" to Cherry 60V KING Desktop Maraschino monoblocks:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127654.msg1851492#msg1851492
Title: Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
Post by: GregC on 9 Apr 2021, 03:20 am
Tommy's amps have powered my 2 channel and HT systems for the last few years.  I was an early adopter of his Maraschino products (shortly after Tommy introduced his inline amps).  Tommy is one of the good guys who produces products of superior performance and value, and goes out of his way to look after his customers. :thumb: