AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Hobbsmeerkat on 3 Aug 2020, 09:13 pm
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Just so i don't get sidetracked on my Neo 3 thread, I'm gunna have a separate thread for brainstorming speakers ideas, loosely around Danny's design themes & current drivers.
This is all about having fun, so feel free to make suggestions, and other interesting design ideas, no matter how crazy or silly they may end up being! :P
Here's where the concept for this thread started:
An MTM derived concept of the NX Studio with a side-opened wave guide
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212256&size=large)
And in the desire to create a matching sealed Servo sub it has gone thru a couple ideas. Before settling on a more wedge shape reminecent of the NX-Otica, allowing for mounting of the plate amp
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212286)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212742)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212743)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212744)
When I get home tonight, I share the standalone MTM and Center channels I worked on yesterday.
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These are cool, Hobbs. Has anyone done an NX series MMTMM center chanel design to pair with NX-Oticas?
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These are cool, Hobbs. Has anyone done an NX series MMTMM center chanel design to pair with NX-Oticas?
Thanks!
Not yet, but I did sketch up a design based on that idea a few months ago for SonicJoy that are somewhat in the same vein.
And will be something I work on in the near future :P
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207070&size=large)
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Nice creativity on that one. I've been thinking of something along those lines for a while myself.
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Thanks Danny! that was definitely a fun thread! :thumb:
Ok, here's the MTM Bookshelves and matching Center channel:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212746&size=large)
With all panels:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212748&size=large)
Rough measurements:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212747&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212749&size=large)
A close up of the horizontal and vertical wave guide section
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212750&size=large)
This is not a simple design by any means. it could be made simpler tho by keeping the open porting more square so that can be an option to work on as well.
Well that was easy.. :P
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212752&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212753&size=large)
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Very cool!
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Just so i don't get sidetracked on my Neo 3 thread, I'm gunna have a separate thread for brainstorming speakers ideas, loosely around Danny's design themes & current drivers.
This is all about having fun, so feel free to make suggestions, and other interesting design ideas, no matter how crazy or silly they may end up being! :P
Here's where the concept for this thread started:
An MTM derived concept of the NX Studio with a side-opened wave guide
Cool. :thumb:
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I would be really interested in this. The Studio Monitor might be enough for me, but the extra midbass and efficiency would be welcome. Turning it into a small floorstander would be perfect and would make it easy to integrate with [my] sealed subwoofers.
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I would be really interested in this. The Studio Monitor might be enough for me, but the extra midbass and efficiency would be welcome. Turning it into a small floorstander would be perfect and would make it easy to integrate with [my] sealed subwoofers.
Yeah! The extra mid-bass extension & effeciency was the main goal of this design. As well as allowing for a potentially wider soundstage even when pushed up close to the walls. I imagine it might lose some depth in such a position, but should still help with the dreaded "wife acceptance factor." :P
Really makes me wish i had wood working tools & skills to build out a test kit. The tricky part would be the waveguide & rear slope.
But the idea is that the waveguide & slope are made separately from the cabinet & glued in between the remaining segments of the front & rear baffle. To make them a tad easier to assemble.
And of course, the crossover will hide beneath the slop, or at either bottom end in the vertical setups.
The only other way to make the design easier would be to 3D print a front wave guide that can just be flush mounted into the baffle same as the BG neo mounts in Danny's older designs, only deeper, so it can be rotated depending on orientation.. but I'll save that for my other thread. :p
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These are very creative and would love to hear them ,very cool!
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Thanks! It's definitely been fun exploration, and I'd love to hear these too! Even if its just a rough prototype.
But maybe one day i can make that dream come true. :P
I've been working on a couple ideas.
First is a "mini" NX-treme with the top & bottom pairs of woofers removed. Designed to sit on a standard sealed 12" sub, or using different braces could be modified into a center channel?
Next will be the same line array, but with the 12" sealed sub built into the side of the cabinet. The plate amp built into the rear of the cabinet. Ill try to finish those tonight or tomorrow
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Realistically for the “floorstander” i think it would have to integrate some measure of OB bass like a single or dual 8” ob and or servo woofers to begin to solve existing issues, as both nx oticas, nxtremes, and nx studios really need subs to compliment and fill out their sound.
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Well the Floorstander is essentially an NX-Otica with 2 of its bottom woofers moved to the top. (See the design of the far-right desing on the sketch page I shared in a previous comment)
So while it won't quite have the same tonal quality of the H-frame, a built in servo sub should still give it plenty of fast, detailed bass.
In order to keep the design aesthetic, you would need to do some unusual design work to get OB servo subs to fit, but its a largely fruitless effort. With the shape of the Otica & NXtreme, a 12" woofer can only fire sideways. It wont be as effective as it would be in an H-frame
The 8" subs might be workable, but it will take a lot more skill to make them look good.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207129&size=large)
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These are cool, Hobbs. Has anyone done an NX series MMTMM center chanel design to pair with NX-Oticas?
An MMTMM won't work, we've tried this ( see the original develpment of the NX_Treme's). However, doing a modified NXMTM on it's side right now for a customer... it'll be a center channel being flanked by an NX-Trem on either side
jay
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An MMTMM won't work, we've tried this ( see the original develpment of the NX_Treme's). However, doing a modified NXMTM on it's side right now for a customer... it'll be a center channel being flanked by an NX-Trem on either side
jay
Interesting, thanks Jay. I'll check out the discussion in that thread.
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Yeah! The extra mid-bass extension & effeciency was the main goal of this design. As well as allowing for a potentially wider soundstage even when pushed up close to the walls. I imagine it might lose some depth in such a position, but should still help with the dreaded "wife acceptance factor." :P
Really makes me wish i had wood working tools & skills to build out a test kit. The tricky part would be the waveguide & rear slope.
But the idea is that the waveguide & slope are made separately from the cabinet & glued in between the remaining segments of the front & rear baffle. To make them a tad easier to assemble.
And of course, the crossover will hide beneath the slop, or at either bottom end in the vertical setups.
The only other way to make the design easier would be to 3D print a front wave guide that can just be flush mounted into the baffle same as the BG neo mounts in Danny's older designs, only deeper, so it can be rotated depending on orientation.. but I'll save that for my other thread. :p
Pretty cool Hobs. With regards to the waveguides, wait until you start prototyping/ testing them.... you're going to find every little change you make changes the response, some more than others. We've done so many prototypes trying to get them "right" it did pay off ..... I still think the ones we cut into the numerous baffle designs we do are the best Danny has measured. The 1" version in the Super 7 / Super Mini is pretty cool but was more difficult to get the response you see in the various threadds
jay
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Pretty cool Hobs. With regards to the waveguides, wait until you start prototyping/ testing them.... you're going to find every little change you make changes the response, some more than others. We've done so many prototypes trying to get them "right" it did pay off ..... I still think the ones we cut into the numerous baffle designs we do are the best Danny has measured. The 1" version in the Super 7 / Super Mini is pretty cool but was more difficult to get the response you see in the various threadds
jay
Thanks Jay!
I believe it! It will likely be loosely based on the standard NX design, to make it compatible with current designs. ill probably try to design a couple different versions to see how each variety affects the response curve. The trick will be to make them thick enough to ensure that that they can be sanded down to make adjustments and continue testing. Its the journey that makes the process more fun!
I'm definitely going to be getting my own printer by the end of the year, so I can do the prints & test ideas on the fly as well as some woodshop tools for cabinet construction.
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An MMTMM won't work, we've tried this ( see the original develpment of the NX_Treme's). However, doing a modified NXMTM on it's side right now for a customer... it'll be a center channel being flanked by an NX-Trem on either side
jay
I see, there were cancellation issues due to the crossover point from the Neo 3 to the NX's when the additional woofers were added. In the version you're doing, is the crossover from the Neo to the NX's at the same point, with the NX's simply asked to play all the way down to the bottom of the speaker's response? I was thinking about something 3-way similar to the X-Voce, though I'm not sure whether that would work in a full open baffle to match the NX-Otica. Either way, I'm definitely interested to see more information about how the custom "NX-Center" you're building performs once it's done.
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I'm kinda surprised about the cancellation issues, but distance is always a factor, since there is a limit to wavelengths before they fall out of phase, & cancel or peak.. so i wonder if the same holds true if you separate them to 3way designs, keeping the mids closer together, and letting the woofers play lower..
I imagine a X-Voce style is also possible... But since most vocal ranges fall between mids and tweeters, its probably easier to just let the mids play down as low as they're capable via an MTM model..
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Ended up going to bed super early last night, so i never got around to finishing this design, so i got it finished early this morning instead. :P
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212931&size=large)
Pretty happy with how it turned out, tbh.
The sealed sub-woofer section is about 20" deep and 14"tall to maintain for the 1.6 cu.ft. volume required.
Here's a separates version of the same concept, tho i didn't include the amp plate cut-out in this version.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212932&size=large)
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Ended up going to bed super early last night, so i never got around to finishing this design, so i got it finished early this morning instead. :P
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212931&size=large)
Pretty happy with how it turned out, tbh.
mmm yes!
(https://i.imgur.com/FRTtA7A.png)
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Is there a way to make the bottom section wider and cram a second woofer in there? I'm afraid that a single woofer won't be sufficient, and these floorstanders would require a set of dual servo subs to be exceptional which is costly and consumes a lot of real estate.
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Is there a way to make the bottom section wider and cram a second woofer in there? I'm afraid that a single woofer won't be sufficient, and these floorstanders would require a set of dual servo subs to be exceptional which is costly and consumes a lot of real estate.
Not wider, but definitely Taller! :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207103&size=large)
Specifically #2 or #5/6
#1 would be a separate, inverted Otica that sits sit on top of the Dual H-Frame.
The design of 5/6 would need to be independently powered and reinforced to support the upper sealed Sub.
#4 wont have enough room or volume to fit both Subs. A passive radiator? Maybe.
Aside from #1 none of these subs would work in an OB setup, the waves wouldn't cancel out properly since they're almost perpendicular in this setup.
Ill work on making these designs in SketchUp tomorrow.
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Number 1 makes the most sense, in my opinion, for a lot of practical reasons, although #5/6 is badass if the weight could be distributed evenly.
Approximately how tall is #1?
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Number 1 makes the most sense, in my opinion, for a lot of practical reasons, although #5/6 is badass if the weight could be distributed evenly.
Approximately how tall is #1?
Yeah from a practical sense, they'd definitely be the easiest to build and would maintain the full OB experience.
Maintaining the strength of the latter design would likely be be the most difficult, but i imagine it'll be doable with a little extra reinforcement at the backs of the side walls.
All these designs should be roughly the same height as the NX-Tremes at ~7 feet tall. With the smaller one being closer to 6 foot.
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Is there a way to make the bottom section wider and cram a second woofer in there? I'm afraid that a single woofer won't be sufficient, and these floorstanders would require a set of dual servo subs to be exceptional which is costly and consumes a lot of real estate.
A pair of sealed servo 12's not enough? You must have a great space, jealous.....
Would these then just use the NX-extreme crossover design? I really like the single frame object; it has a dominance w/o clutter. Any thoughts on how side firing subs would function vs. front firing?
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The basic design is a fusion of the "OB-7 Plus" paired with the NX series design language/drivers etc.
The OB-7 plus used a side-firing woofer as have some other speaker designs I've seen, including PS Audio's AN3 concept speakers..
So long as the main woofers can play down low enough, most sound from fhem should be largely omnidirectional, and unaffected by orientation.
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A pair of sealed servo 12's not enough?
The idea is to create a full open baffle speaker. A single sealed servo sub will sound different and load the room differently than OB servo subs where you need two on each side for optimal sound.
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Sadly these line-array designs don't allow for OB Subs. They would have to be sealed or an entirely separate H-frame & incerted Otica.
Plus with the perpendicular radiation patter, I doubt OB would be a particularly effective option, given the discussion in the original thread these sketches are originally from.
Otherwide you could turn an OB H-Frame on its side and put the line array on top of that. But i don't think there's a way to make it into a single unit that would look as good...
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Only managed to finish the dual-sub tower yesterday. Still, they definitely have a more commanding presence, and should be roughly the same height as the NX-Tremes.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213056&size=large)
I wonder if i can design a version that is based around the Line-Force? :P
Still a shame they cant really use OB subs in a more appealing way... Actually it might still be possible... But only for a line force model. (Dual OB+subs with a slightly smaller line-force integrated on top?)
I still need to work on the inverted Otica with dual Subs, namely the subs' baracing and connecting slope at the back. Tho I'm curious if it would be more beneficial to keep their spaces separated, or as a single volume?
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A dominant presence for sure! Getting power cable and input signal to the upper plate amp could be a challenge or result in an unsightly mess of spaghetti. Could a single plate amp not drive both subs?
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A dominant presence for sure! Getting power cable and input signal to the upper plate amp could be a challenge or result in an unsightly mess of spaghetti. Could a single plate amp not drive both subs?
I imagine you could use cable clips along the rear brace of the open wing to help keep the wiring as tidy as possible.
Yes and no. In my inverted Otica+ dual sub design, both subs will be powered by a single plate amp.
In the tower, the amp is too far away from the top sub to drive it properly, so it needs its own plate amp.
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Any suggestions for a lightweight (aka easy to use and free) 3D design program? I've always had some design ideas I wanted to float by this group, but need a way to visually articulate my thoughts.
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I've just been using SketchUp cuz its has a free version, and its much easier to learn on the fly than most traditional/professional CAD software, like Blender which is also free, but far more robust and has a much steeper learning curve, so its not great for basic design work since it's largely intended for 3D/animation work.
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Any suggestions for a lightweight (aka easy to use and free) 3D design program? I've always had some design ideas I wanted to float by this group, but need a way to visually articulate my thoughts.
Would Microsoft Paint 3D that comes with Windows 10 work for your needs?
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Any suggestions for a lightweight (aka easy to use and free) 3D design program? I've always had some design ideas I wanted to float by this group, but need a way to visually articulate my thoughts.
I use Blender. ( https://www.blender.org/ ).
It's free and very strong and "easy" to use / learn.
roly
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Nice designs except for one big problem. Seems like everyone who has built
a wedge shaped servo sub prefers the sound of a H-frame.
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Nice designs except for one big problem. Seems like everyone who has built
a wedge shaped servo sub prefers the sound of a H-frame.
I wouldn't call that a "big problem" tbh, just a difference of perspective. The original idea behind these designs are effeciency of space. Where a full tower + subs would take up too much space
It obv won't be to the same quality level as the H or W Frame subs, but its not trying to compete with them, just work within the confines of the limitations
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Made progress on the Inverted Otica & dual subs & it's identical in height to the other dual sub tower, roughly 77" or 7' 5"
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213121&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213122&size=large)
The single sub design is closer to 6' 2"
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So a question for anyone that understands the concept better than i do.
A line source can be made with a series of tweeters/mids in a line so long as they remain close enough to not destructively interfere.
Primary examples being The Infinity IRS V, Genesis 1 and Danny's Line Force. And can also be achieved by using a single, long, continuous driver, not disimilar to those found in Magnapan panels.
My point being, is there a practical minimum length for a multi-driver line source before comb filtering becomes an issue?
I know using two tweeters is bad due to comb filtering, but could you get away with as little as say 6 Neo3s and a pair of Neo10s per tower?
Not quite bookshelf size, but not 5-6 foot tall towers either..
Or is it best to just stick to 1 and done, like the Super Minis?
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For a linear array of drivers to act like a line source, you have to be seated in the near field. For a normal listening room situation, Danny's Line Force design is probably the shortest you can get away with. For a desktop monitor where you are sitting a couple feet away, you might be able to get away with a shorter array, but there probably isn't much benefit.
For a normal listening room speaker, you're better off sticking to one tweeter. You can get away with multiple midrange drivers as long as they are close together (e.g. Super 7, NX-Otica) since the wavelengths are considerably longer.
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Thanks for the info!
I don't have the money or resources to test this sort of thing, so I'll just set a few ideas aside that won't work.
Ill be working with the user Creative Cut Desings to develop some cabinet plans for some of these designs, to see if we can have some fun testing these designs. :thumb:
Killian has also offered to build some test kits as well, so I'm excited to see what we can achieve with these designs.
I dunno if they're entirely "realistic," but I honestly love the fun of exploration & learning from what these idea can lead to.
I sill want to work on designing a waveguide that can be oriented based on the position of the speaker too, be it mold-injection or 3D printed.. so be on the lookout on my Neo3 deep-cup thread as I work on planning some designs to test in the future.
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Okay, Update time!
On my Neo3 thread, I used my NX-Studio kit to get rough measurements, to produce a more accurate waveguide that will be easier for those that want a simpler installation that can also be re-oriented for vertical/horizontal use.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213459&size=large)
And with that, I moved forward on designing a cutout that should work in the Studio MTM design:
6" diameter circle with a 0.24" recess, leading to a 5" diameter hole on the inside.
I'm actually quite proud of this design... :green:
The outer rings around the woofer holes signify where the outer edge of the woofers mounting base sits. Enough to cover the bottom/top screws, but not the edge of the waveguide when in the vertical position. I also had to expand the overall size of the cabinets a little bit to better match the needed volume, and give a little extra space to the waveguide.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213476&size=large)
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Looks fantastic! I thought sketchup has (or had) a plug-in to export a design into a cut list, is that gone in the current version? I’d be interested in helping you test the design and refine dimensions, I have a workshop / machinery to support some experimentation.
I’m curious to see how the asymmetrical rear neo 3 “vent” sounds, will a pair of speakers balance out rearward projection or will the design need to project rearward in both left and right? This of course adds some fabrication challenges but the unexpected is always the best part about experiments.
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It might, but im just using the free version. I also haven't looked into that yet either. But it may still be possible? Tho it is the free online only version, so it might not be possible.. (yay for subscription services!)
The tricky part will definitely still be the rear slope. I still need to find a way to simplify the process it a little more, tho.
The idea behind the left/right vent is for a wider sound stage. It will probably loose some depth compared to the standard Studios, but it can still function as a center channel, which was it's design idea.
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Okay, finally got around to making my own "cut sheet" for all the parts pieces required for the build of a center channel/bookshelf.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213699&size=xlarge)
This is a simplified version, using a more "squared" slope and all using .75" MDF
Full dimensions are 8.5" x15" x 26.5"
Tweeter cut-out is intended for use with my 3D printed design in my Neo 3. A 6" outer radius with an inset of .25" and an inner radius of 5". Woofer holes are the standard 5.75"
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213541&size=large)
The angle on the shelf is 26.5°, the sides of the slopes are designed to sit on top of the back panel. (I forgot to add it here, but a 4.5"x2" piece is needed at the front of the slope.) The small piece on the bottom right sits .75" below the outer edge, and allows a custom speaker grill to be added.
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I missed a couple details, so here's an update of the cut sheet:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213702&size=xlarge)
Here's the link to the full quality version:
http://puu.sh/Gm6mW/6f99210230.png
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Very cool Hobbs! I may have missed it, does Danny already have a crossover designed for this configuration? It would be cool to see someone put together an all NX home theater system.
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Very cool Hobbs! I may have missed it, does Danny already have a crossover designed for this configuration? It would be cool to see someone put together an all NX home theater system.
Not at the moment. It will need to be assembled & sent to him for testing, tho I imagine it wont be too different from the standard NX-MTM or Studio crossovers?
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Made some more small adjustments, the slope is now 5" wide, but otherwise the same overall design. :P
This is how the cut list should appear once assembled:
Old design on the left, new on the right.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213713&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213714&size=large)
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Has there been a MTMWWaf version of the Oticcas?
Reason being that could be stacked on top of a servo sub and keep the footprint of one speaker, and still get benefits of the woofers.
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I am not sure if any of these configurations are possible. I often thought of a NX-Otica Mini that can be stacked on a double servo sub that has the footprint of a single speaker keeping the hole thing under 6 feet tall. The NX-Otica MTMs look great, but from what i read folks miss that mid bass from the woofers in comparison to the full NX-Oticas. Too bad the configuration in my home won't allow 4 speaker placements to accommodate the NX-Oticas with servo subs. Maybe with something along these lines, someone could have their cake and eat it too. I would say one downside would be the tweeter is a little high up, but maybe this could be addressed with a slight forward lean of the upper baffle downward toward the listening position.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216070)
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I am not sure if any of these configurations are possible. I often thought of a NX-Otica Mini that can be stacked on a double servo sub that has the footprint of a single speaker keeping the hole thing under 6 feet tall. The NX-Otica MTMs look great, but from what i read folks miss that mid bass from the woofers in comparison to the full NX-Oticas. Too bad the configuration in my home won't allow 4 speaker placements to accommodate the NX-Oticas with servo subs. Maybe with something along these lines, someone could have their cake and eat it too. I would say one downside would be the tweeter is a little high up, but maybe this could be addressed with a slight forward lean of the upper baffle downward toward the listening position.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216070)
Yeah, i totally understand your thoughts, and is how i came to my design choices with some of the monster towers most of which are essentially an inverted otica or Xtreme "mini" with 4 missing woofers to keep the height managable.
My concerns with the left design is that a single NQ woofer might not be enough to make enough differences in the midband vs an Otica MTM, & will lead to a thinner midrange. The taller tweeter issue is definitely an issue i had to work with, luckily the NX waveguide does a lot to help with the overall sound dispersion, so it's not too much of a worry to be a little lower than the tweeter.
I dont really have too many thoughts on the right design cuz I don't think I've ever seen the LGKs used in an OB setting, or how they would be utilized..
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Regarding the single NQ driver output, that is a very interesting question. Danny uses this configuration in the NX-Studio Monitor but in a sealed cabinet and does incorporate them with servo subs.
The concept using the LGK drivers is essentially the top end of a Wedgie monitor. Looking at it now, I would look at narrowing the baffle to the same width as a Wedgie design above the waveguide. This concept intrigues me the most just because those LGK's from what I hear are just so fast and detailed, and you have two drivers that don't take up much more room versus the one NQ driver; so in theory you may get a little more output (I could totally be wrong). As far as balance between the drivers and output for the midrange with these concepts, I simply do not have the expertise to guess. Another potential concern is having the woofers so close to the tweeter. I am not sure if that would cause any issues.
I will say I have heard some 3 way designs where the midrange was above the tweeter, with the woofer below on the bottom. Granted these were sealed box towers, but I always thought putting that mid range on the top like that really created a nice spacious sound with a box speaker, especially with vocals and horns. These are just concepts that have been stuck in my brain and trying to incorporate the woofers in the design to gain more low mids, to me that is such an important part of the music. I will be the first to admit from a speaker design standpoint I am not qualified to even discuss if these concepts are even doable. I would love it if something like this was possible, with my space limitations and layout I could have something a little closer to the NX-Otica. Of course assuming with these concepts, adding the woofers there would be anything at all the gain compared to the MTM NX-Otica or Wedgie with servo sub. I think there could be, if you don't lose too much of the mid output.
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With many closed box speaker designs (the kind I am extremely familiar after 40+ years of building them) putting the mid at ear level with the tweeter below and slightly outboard of the centerline will get very close to the zero delay plane that produces very good time alignment in the critical upper mid region. Makes for an extremely coherent loudspeaker.
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The LGKs are very intriguing, but are going to be tough to integrate with woofers being the Wedgies go down to about 200Hz, the dual 165NQ's go down to 100Hz with the NX-MTM monitor and will be much easier to cross to a woofer, which has already been done very successfully. You could do something like this on top of a dual servo sub and keep the whole thing at about 6 foot tall, while only taking up 2 speaker positions in your room. I would think halving the woofers to 4 from 8 versus the full NX-OTICA would still give you a little kick in the pants in the mid bass compared to the NX-MTM monitor. The Mini Xtremes on the left put the tweeter one speaker position lower on the baffle versus the Mini Oticas which may be beneficial in some rooms. I am not sure which would sound better, I would be curious to hear from some in the know.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216250)
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This popped into my head the other night. I was listening to some old ADS monitors I set up as a system in my kid's room, which happened to be a sealed box and always loved the mid bass these put out. Which got me thinking about the NX Studios and how nice they should sound. Just curious if there have ever been any experimentation with a hybrid type monitor combining the MTM-Oticas with the NX Studios in a 3 way design? This would be a MTMM (or MTM design depending on how they measure) with the low end driver being in a sealed box with the two mid range drivers in a open baffle above the tweeter. I am sure the same cabinet could be used for the NX-Studios, just a new front baffle design would be needed.
The X-Static has been a very succesful design, and this has some of the characteristics of that speaker. With the crossover design, I assume you could find somewhere to cross around 100-125 hz that would work for the low end X-over where the TMM tops end of the monitor would naturally roll off assuming the measurements stayed the same compared to the MTM-Oticas. Of course this is all an assumption and in practice this may not work. If it does, perhaps it could be that solution to get more mid bass out of the monitor size cabinets without having to jump up to full Oticas for people with space limitations? Assuming there isn't something else in the works already at the GR Research Lab in TX.
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Where are all the pictures?
I am relative new to this forum and I look at some old and not so old threads and on many of them the description implies that there are pictures but I don't see any pictures.
Do I do something wrong or is that a problem with this forum or how can I see these "old" pictures.
Thanks
Edgar
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Here's a full ranger. What about an NX Otica in WWMTMWW form sitting on top of a 14" cube with open back containing opposing servo 12s on each side of the box crossed over around 50Hz. Servo amp will have to be in it's own box.
Chris Hoff
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There is an issue with the board. I can't see or post any either.
There is a need for many that can't use 4 speaker position in their listening space due to space limitations. The only solution is to go vertical. The only concern would be tweeter height if you decide on stacking oticas or xtremes on subs.
In my situation I am more near field so a monitor stacked on a servo sub would be ideal.
Chris - do you know if that configuration been attempted yet with servo subs? That seems very interesting.
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Here's a full ranger. What about an NX Otica in WWMTMWW form sitting on top of a 14" cube with open back containing opposing servo 12s on each side of the box crossed over around 50Hz. Servo amp will have to be in it's own box.
Chris Hoff
Wouldn't that be the NX-Treme with the servo subs built into the bottom of them?
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Wouldn't that be the NX-Treme with the servo subs built into the bottom of them?
Its more of a hybrid design between the Otica and Xtreme, like ones Ive drawn/designed previously, tho pics have disappeared thanks to a site-wide issue or something.
Tho i think they're talking about dual opposing subs in a single unit rather than most of my designs that were single servo sub units.
Tho that gives me an idea for a dual servo MTM tower... :lol:
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How about an NX-Treme with one sub at the bottom and one at the top? You'd need a pretty damn big/tall room for it though.
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How about an NX-Treme with one sub at the bottom and one at the top? You'd need a pretty damn big/tall room for it though.
Yeah, you'd need roughly 10ft ceilings at a minimum and some serious bracing to support the upper sub.
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Hobbsmeerkat,
I have been following your NX-Studio build.
Since your NX-Studios are still under construction, it would be nothing for you to extent the front baffle to accommodate two NQ drivers and whip up another crossover to try my idea of a mini 3 way
NX-Static...lol
Another configuration would be MM(sealed)TMM
Stack it on top of two opposed 12's like you suggested, that would truly be a small footprint full range speaker. I would live to hear how that sealed driver sounds with that open baffle top.
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Thats an interesting idea, tho i think it would be better suited to using 2 165NQ/16 and then two M160 woofers in the lower cabinet.
But here's a few designs that ive done in the past that have been lost thanks to the current glitch..
NX-STUDIO MTM tower:
(https://puu.sh/Gaj5O/4555a3a84c.png)
(https://puu.sh/Gaj1Q/958cdf09bf.png)
NX-STUDIO "Center" with a rotatable waveguide:
(https://puu.sh/Gm6bx/b58cd9b4ba.png&size=large)
Some various tower + sub combos:
(https://puu.sh/GhaOv/4eaf23e125.png)
(https://puu.sh/GhaRr/1be6fae2f9.png)
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Hobbs i really like these wonder what they would sound like very nice work!
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Thats an interesting idea, tho i think it would be better suited to using 2 165NQ/16 and then two M160 woofers in the lower cabinet.
The Studios do go down to what 55hz? X-static will dig a little deeper down the mid 40s.
You would be trading 10hz in low end but also would be having the issue of potentially 4 speaker positions once you add the subs. It would be interesting to compare 1 vs 2 sealed drivers and see how they blend with OB configurations. My objective would be just give the NX-MTM some more bottom and punch while keeping the speaker profile as small as possible.
Those designs you do are just fantastic.
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The Studios do go down to what 55hz? X-static will dig a little deeper down the mid 40s.
I think its actually a bit higher than that, the -3 dB is around 70Hz, but has a smoother roll-off thanks to its sealed cabinet.
I also designed a version that is the same as the MTM tower, but is essentially the center channel design with the lower section containing a servo sub, but it requires a side mounted or external sub amp. Otherwise the shape of the cabinet would need to change to more of a wedge design, like the majority of the NX line,
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212286&size=large)
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It's great to see all these drawings.
I like to see drawings with measurements for the NX-Otica. Do they exist anywhere? I looked at Danny's website and the forum here but I didn't find any drawings.
CAD files would be even better.
Currently I learn Fusion 360. It's a great program. I "created" already the sub H-Frame in that program.
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I dont, sadly. Unfortunately, when Danny moved away from his old site & email server, it also took all his pictures and measurements with them.
But I really have enjoyed working on these over the past year! Hopefully once I'm done with my current projects, I can focus on them again, including more ideas for the deep cup mod, and some other ideas I've had since then. :thumb:
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Some various tower + sub combos:
(https://puu.sh/GhaOv/4eaf23e125.png)
Now THAT I would build in a heartbeat if I knew it would sound almost as good as separate subs. Because I could live with that tower in my living room.
GREAT drawings!
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Sajgre
Using DSP it would be awesome.
Chris Hoff
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(https://puu.sh/GhaOv/4eaf23e125.png)
There is definitely a design flaw with the sub at the top.
Crank it up and the cabinets will start to dance to one side. ;)
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Had the day off today, so I spend some time modeling out an idea i recently sketched up for the GRS-10. (Parts Experess Neo10 clone)
It's still pretty early in the design phase, but i thought it would be neat to create a laminated cabinet that uses a the sidewalls as diffusers to reduce back pressure on the driver by allowing a delay and diffraction of the back wave within the cabinet, but still playing around with it.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220477&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220478&size=large)
The plan is to make it a fully-planar monitor kinda like the SuperMini, but cheaper, with a sealed mid-range. Im curious how low it can play, I'm hoping for 150-200hz vs the 300Hz found in previous OB tests.
Should be 8" wide and about 9" deep, once i design the front baffle.
And likely 14-15" tall once the crossover base and tweeter section are designed.
One step at a time tho~
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Your cad skills are off the charts. There will be no resonances from that enclosure, very nice.
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Your cad skills are off the charts. There will be no resonances from that enclosure, very nice.
Haha I dunno if I'd call what i do "CAD skills", considering i have no actual skill with proper 3D/CAD software.. (Or the money to afford the software/hardware that are often required) but I do enjoy the process of learning new skills, esp for stuff like this.
Thanks for the compliments tho! :thumb:
That's certainly the hope! Tho one thing ill probably work on is adding an extra set of nodes, which will allow the walls to be a little thicker since the narrow spots are about 9mm which is well under half an inch thick. So hopefully i can manage to get hose spots closer to 12-15mm at the narrowest.
The plan will also be to run the wiring under the base for the mid, and either inside the frame, or behind the baffle for the tweeter.
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Take a look Mayfly , diffusor interior walls.
https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1515-mayfly-audio-systems-mf-201a-loudspeakers
Shawn
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Take a look Mayfly , diffusor interior walls.
https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1515-mayfly-audio-systems-mf-201a-loudspeakers
Shawn
Yeah! that speaker was partially the inspiration for the design, but with a little less math/science involved :P
Edit:
This video was also part of the inspiration for this build:
https://youtu.be/VTvzyw6-iAQ
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Haha I dunno if I'd call what i do "CAD skills", considering i have no actual skill with proper 3D/CAD software.. (Or the money to afford the software/hardware that are often required) but I do enjoy the process of learning new skills, esp for stuff like this.
Thanks for the compliments tho! :thumb:
Which software do you use? SketchUp?
I tried a little in SketchUp and then I watched some videos about Fusion 360 and now I am learning that one. I think it's a great program.
This is my first "construction" in Fusion 360 according to Danny's plans.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220507)
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Yup! I use SketchUp, its simple enough to learn, tho it does lack some features I'd like, but for a free program, it works well enough for me to get my feet wet and dive into the basic modeling needed for roughing out these designs.
Nice! That's looking pretty good! I definitely appreciate the use of textures to help differentiate between different materials. :thumb:
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Yup! I use SketchUp, its simple enough to learn, tho it does lack some features I'd like, but for a free program, it works well enough for me to get my feet wet and dive into the basic modeling needed for roughing out these designs.
Nice! That's looking pretty good! I definitely appreciate the use of textures to help differentiate between different materials. :thumb:
This is the same with outside glossy black.
Sooner or later I will also add the No Rez and the drivers.
Fusion 360 is also free software. It has limitations compared to the commercial version. But those limitations should not be an issue for us, the amateurs.
I saw a very good video series about Fusion 360 which convinced me to learn it. Maybe have a look
https://youtu.be/A5bc9c3S12g
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220518)
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Dang, Thats a gorgeous render! :o
I'll definitely need to look into Fusion360 here soon then!
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I've been playing around in Sketchup for the build I'm starting this weekend. It's a fun little program, but the renders on Fusion look pretty darn good. The texture options really seem to set it apart.
Immediately saw that it's made by Autodesk and had some visceral reactions as I was an AutoCAD monkey way back in high school and college. This was forever ago, like when 386 processors were the bees knees.
CAD has come a long way since then.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220530)
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I've been playing around in Sketchup for the build I'm starting this weekend. It's a fun little program, but the renders on Fusion look pretty darn good. The texture options really seem to set it apart.
Immediately saw that it's made by Autodesk and had some visceral reactions as I was an AutoCAD monkey way back in high school and college. This was forever ago, like when 386 processors were the bees knees.
CAD has come a long way since then.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220530)
Amazing! You definitely nailed the final product for this project!
I dunno if I've ever used a 386 PC, but my family's first PC used a 486DX which had the disabled FPU. I think it lasted for 25 years before something happened to the boot sector & made the machine unusable. Tho we definitely had several PCs in that time, it had some old games I used to play as a young kid..
I just tarted working on printing the idea I had for the GRS-10/Neo10 cabinet. Its gunna require a fair amount of time, with each middle section taking about 9 hours, and the two ends will take about a day each, and they will only just barely fit on the build plate.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223510&size=large)
I'll need to switch out the roll of filament here fairly soon, so I'm starting with one of the middle ribs sections, so I can keep an eye on it more closely. Im excited to see the final results once it's all done! (Tho I still need to model a front baffle that will fit to the front of this, and can conceal the front wires/terminals)
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Reviving this thread to show off a wild idea I had & got to test today. :P
I was inspired after watching some videos by Joseph Crowe
https://youtube.com/c/JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239128& size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239129&size=large)
3" deep horn-loaded GRNeo 3 with back cup.
The shape is rather impractical in this form, but the response is quite impressive.
I tested it without the cup, but it was a pretty rough response until about 7-8KHz
Going to shoot for a slightly smaller 2.5" horn to better match the voice coil of the 8" 200 NQ.
Might also make a 1.5" version to see how the response changes.
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Dang, that’s impressive. How low does the NEO 3 normally extend without the waveguide?
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I'm late to the party, but there are some interesting ideas in this thread. Some remind me of a couple ideas that I recently had.
One idea was an NX-Static. The X-Static speaker with a Neo tweeter. Get that Neo goodness into a less expensive speaker that has decent enough bottom end to not _require_ a sub.
The other involves my favorite GR speaker that I have ever heard - the LGK Wedgie. Of course, I have only heard a few GR speakers - the Wedgie, NX-MTM (or MTM-Otica or whatever you want to call it) and NX-treme. All systems that I have heard included those wonderful H-frame subs. Several thoughts here... One is that I hope that the Wedgie is resurrected using the LGK 2.0 drivers. Said Wedgie still requires lots of bass help as it only goes down to about 200Hz.
My first thought was a speaker like the NX-Otica, but using the LGK drivers for the mids. Something like a Wedgie on top of an NX-Otica bass section. This would allow the sub to be just a sub and placed separately from the main speakers - wherever a sub does best instead of the compromise required using the H-Frame as a monolithic bass section under a Wedgie.
The other thought harkens back to the X-Static and is similar to the NX-Static that I mentioned above. This idea is to use the bass section of the X-Static design with an LGK Wedgie on top. This could be 2 piece or monolithic - either way seems reasonable to me. The idea is to get decent but inexpensive bass support for the Wedgie.
These ideas are driven by my love for the NX sound and the Wedgie in particular, and my extremely limited budget. Seriously, I significantly prefer the sound of the Wedgie to the MTM-Otica. A pair of Wedgies would be a year worth of budget, or NX-Oticas would be a multi-year budgetary project. I would love to build a pair of double H-frames but that alone would be yet another multi-year budgetary project. Retirement is coming soon and I would like to be able to enjoy these projects for some time. Barring winning the lottery, that prospect doesn't look great.
Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, I don't want to whine... My challenge these days is having champagne tastes on a root-beer budget. I have indeed collected some fine equipment over the years, so electronics is less of an issue but I am feeling the desire for a speaker upgrade. The Acoustat 1+1s have ceased working, the ML CLS need total rebuild and while my Maggie MMGs are nice, I would like a bit better for the main system.
Still... one of the crazy ideas above might make NX sound almost affordable. :-)
J.P.
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Reviving this thread to show off a wild idea I had & got to test today. :P
I was inspired after watching some videos by Joseph Crowe
https://youtube.com/c/JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239129&size=large)
3" deep horn-loaded GRNeo 3 with back cup.
The shape is rather impractical in this form, but the response is quite impressive.
I tested it without the cup, but it was a pretty rough response until about 7-8KHz
Going to shoot for a slightly smaller 2.5" horn to better match the voice coil of the 8" 200 NQ.
Might also make a 1.5" version to see how the response changes.
Do you have a without waveguide plot for comparison ?
Thanks much.
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Dang, that’s impressive. How low does the NEO 3 normally extend without the waveguide?
Depends on the depth of the back cup and how its mounted. Flush mounting using the BG or similar faceplate, realistically its crossover point will need to be in the 2-4Khz.
With the NX waveguide, crossover can be as low as 1200-1500Hz.
With the more horn-shaped waveguide, we can probably push them as low as 700-900Hz.
Do you have a without waveguide plot for comparison ?
Thanks much.
Here's what it looks like in a flat faceplate: in an OB-7 cabinet.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240839)
Red: deep back cup
Green: open back
Here's a shallow 3/4" waveguide:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240840)
Here's the measured response of an MDF version of that same 3" horn I shared Earlier.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240841)
Red is raw driver
Yellow is with a simple network on it.
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Depends on the depth of the back cup and how its mounted. Flush mounting using the BG or similar faceplate, realistically its crossover point will need to be in the 2-4Khz.
With the NX waveguide, crossover can be as low as 1200-1500Hz.
With the more horn-shaped waveguide, we can probably push them as low as 700-900Hz.
You should do that - a horn shaped waveguide and then pair them with a 12 inch high efficiency midrange woofer and build out that old school 'party speaker' Danny has mentioned in the past. Audiophile party speaker - sweet!
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Thanks. That is a very impressive improvement.
Wonder if it would extend the NEO8 range lower.
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Thanks. That is a very impressive improvement.
Wonder if it would extend the NEO8 range lower.
It would be possible. I believe Joseph Crowe designed a horn for one, but it's quite large from what I remember.
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You should do that - a horn shaped waveguide and then pair them with a 12 inch high efficiency midrange woofer and build out that old school 'party speaker' Danny has mentioned in the past. Audiophile party speaker - sweet!
This is what I'm in the process of doing, but with a horn down to 800Hz, not a waveguide. Danny & Hobbs are gonna design the crossover. Comes with a side order of servo subs and super tweeters. Stay tuned...
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Ok, so years later I keep wondering how a side-opened wave guide/rear opening would sound compared with the top-opened implementation of the Studio.
Maybe a better way of asking it is how would the Studio change/not change if the tweeter opened to the side rather than the top?
Separately, I've seen something similar to Hobb's sketch below from a manufacturer or two, but haven't heard any of them.
[edited to remove repeated words ;-)]
Just so i don't get sidetracked on my Neo 3 thread, I'm gunna have a separate thread for brainstorming speakers ideas, loosely around Danny's design themes & current drivers.
This is all about having fun, so feel free to make suggestions, and other interesting design ideas, no matter how crazy or silly they may end up being! :P
Here's where the concept for this thread started:
An MTM derived concept of the NX Studio with a side-opened wave guide
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212256&size=large)
And in the desire to create a matching sealed Servo sub it has gone thru a couple ideas. Before settling on a more wedge shape reminecent of the NX-Otica, allowing for mounting of the plate amp
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212286)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212742)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212743)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212744)
When I get home tonight, I share the standalone MTM and Center channels I worked on yesterday.