Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's

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Beatlebum

Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« on: 31 Aug 2004, 12:25 pm »
Hello all,

I just registered so please forgive me if I do things outta sorts. I talked to Mike last nite about my Force sub that I'll be receiving today and he suggested I post here looking for past experiences from members here.

I'll be trying to blend the sub in my 2 channel rig with my Magnepan 1.6QR's. What I like to hear is: (a) placement experiences/suggestions, and (b) experiences/suggestions for settings of the various controls.

My planned hook-up is out of my preamp's outs with y-adapters (purchased from ACI) to my mono-blocks and to the sub.

system: Blue Circle 21.1 preamp - Audio Note cd3.1x - Odyssey Audio Extreme Mono's - Marantz DV8300 - Magnepan 1.6QR's - VH Audio Pulsar i/c's - Ridge Street Audio Poeima speaker cables.

Beatlebum

Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #1 on: 2 Sep 2004, 11:04 am »
Thanks to all for your thoughts! :(

Mike Dzurko

Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #2 on: 2 Sep 2004, 03:10 pm »
Quote from: Beatlebum
Thanks to all for your thoughts! :(


Sorry about that! We've only had the forum up and running for around a month.  At present, we have a very tiny fraction of our customers who know about this and stop by. Since we don't advertise, it will take everyone's "word of mouth" to get the news out and get more contributors. In the meantime, you might want to try the Planar Forum at audioasylum, there are a number of Maggie-Force users over there. And tell them to get over here as well :)  Considering there are literally hundreds of ACI sub owners using them with planars, you should be able to get some good input. Please do keep coming back and help us all get this show really rolling .. .

Beatlebum

Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #3 on: 2 Sep 2004, 04:15 pm »
Thanks for your reply Mike!

ieales

Mating a Force sub
« Reply #4 on: 4 Sep 2004, 09:34 pm »
It's not the frequency, it's the time.

Be prepared to take some time. Loosen up the sub for a few days by playing the radio while at work. Make some sketches of the controls and make several copies.

The Maggies are a very coherent LS, so the first focus should be alignment of the phase so the sound stage remains coherent.

There is no free lunch due to the laws of physics. Expecting woofer weighing several ounces to keep up with a tweeter weighing at most few grams is not realistic. The idea is to add the fundamental underpinnings to support the mains in a coherent manner. If the sub is too loud, the disparity in speed will be annoying.

The Force is flexible enough to ensure almost seamless integration, provided you take the time...

If you can get an assistant to help while you listen, the setup will go much faster.

First choose several source disks with substantial and diverse low end information : Large symphony with bass drum and tympani, jazz with acoustic bass, rock with real low end, not 100Hz hump, etc.

Select the sections for test listening and note them for easy access.

Set both xovers to ~50Hz, the phase to 90° and adjust the level so there is a slight to moderate increase in low end when the Force is on.

Each surface next to the Force increases the level at the expense of coherence and frequency comb filtering. If you can put it in the middle of the room, great. Coherence will be maximum, level will be minimum and my wife is leaving.  :nono:  My Force ended up set in a corner about one foot from the side wall and 1.5 feet from the rear wall.

Now the fun begins. :D

Repeatedly play each selected segment listening for expansion of the low end while adjusting the phase control. When the phase is correct, the room will expand. You'll 'hear' the back wall behind the orchestra. On acoustic bass, the strings and the body will align. Kick drums in rock hit you in the solar plexus and you can 'see' where the beater is whacking the head.

Once the phase is correct, turn the xovers all the way down to 35Hz. Bring the level control up until there is apparent low end, but there is a 'hole' in the bottom. Drop the level back a bit and bring the xovers up until the hole fills in.

Now try dropping the A xover a bit and raising the B. The goal is to achieve as seamless an integration as possible. Level and phase adjustment may also be necessary. Tiny adjustments pay bigger dividends.

Once you've got it dialed, make notes of all the settings, room position, etc.

Depending on your level of neurosis, you may want to start again and see if you can make any improvement. Once my Force sub had played for about 30 days [about 100 hours], I started over and made a slight improvement on the coherence and blending to the mains. It's easier the second time around as you've become reacqainted with all 10 octaves.

Once you have it right, the increase in listening enjoyment is an order of magnitude greater than without the sub. :rotflmao:

Mike Dzurko

Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #5 on: 6 Sep 2004, 01:27 pm »
Ieales:

Excellent post! You make many great points. While it is possible to get a sub up and running quickly, getting perfect integration takes time and patience. IMHO those who invest the time and effort are rewarded with sonic improvements that are way beyond the financial investment. Those who simply "plug and play" may see some improvement, but don't get the full sonic value. Thanks for providing the details!

Beatlebum

Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #6 on: 7 Sep 2004, 04:17 pm »
ieales and Mike (again), thanks for the responses.

ieales, I reviewed some of the info at your linked site with regards to your room's frequency responses and subsequent subwoofer placement. Interesting to me that the spot where you acheived the flattest response was "sonically", the worst sounding.

I am prepared to take my time in an attempt to get the coherence and seamless integration I desire. I have the room to put the Force right in the middle of the speakers directly behind my eq rack. This will be within a few inches of the rear (behind speakers) wall but a good 4' to 5' from any sidewalls.

Keep the comments and suggestions (in simplest terms  :lol: ) coming!

Thanks again,

Tim

Harry P

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 220
Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #7 on: 23 Sep 2004, 08:33 pm »
So how's the Force sounding with your Mags? I bet it sounds sweet.  I find the force to be the perfect balance of power and finesse.

Beatlebum

Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #8 on: 24 Sep 2004, 01:10 am »
Hello Harry P,

Yes the sub is sweet sounding (when I can tell it's there!  :wink: That's a good thing) and I'm very pleased. One question (Mike, I left  messages with Ross to call me at your next convenience) though:

When going through the setup procedure using the ACI cd and beginning with 70 db reading at 60 Hz, when I go to the frequencies below 45, the sub makes an awful rackety sound. The gain to get to 70 db at 60 Hz was about 3/4 up. This ain't right! What's the deal?

I began again at 70 db at 60Hz and dialed things in by ear. My settings currently are as follows:
Gain = 1/3 up
1st crossover = 35 Hz
2nd crossover = 38 Hz
Phase = about 25 degrees


Any and all input is greatly appreciated! TIA!

Harry P

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 220
Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #9 on: 24 Sep 2004, 01:00 pm »
I've got a pair of Force that I have tried all sorts of things with. they are amazing music producers. You settings sound like they are surely in the ballpark. Are you doing any high pass filters in the Mags?  

If you have the Force set in the 30s but are trying to get any volume at 60Hz you're going to have to push the sub Real hard and that will cause the woofers to be overplayed and they make that sound.

Beatlebum

Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #10 on: 28 Sep 2004, 05:28 pm »
Harry P (and Mike D),

I've relocated my Force to between my 1.6QR's and about a foot back from the front plane of the speakers. The sub is about 8' from the left sidewall and about 10' from the right sidewall and roughly 2' from the front wall. In doing this I found that I had to adjust the phase to about 160 degrees to get good bass. Crossovers remain at 35 and 37, gain is about 5/8 way up.

My preamp inverts the phase at the outputs which I've Y-adpatered to. Does this effect the phasing of the sub? Probably a dumn question?
I noticed with the phase around zero to 30 degrees that on some recordings the bass drum kick and sound were out of timing.

Please comments and sugestions welcome by any and all.
Thanks in advance!

Beatlebum

Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #11 on: 1 Oct 2004, 02:09 pm »
Mike,

Any answers or comments?

Always looking for help!

Mike Dzurko

Blending "The Force" in with my 1.6QR's
« Reply #12 on: 1 Oct 2004, 03:38 pm »
Quote from: Beatlebum
Harry P (and Mike D),

I've relocated my Force to between my 1.6QR's and about a foot back from the front plane of the speakers. The sub is about 8' from the left sidewall and about 10' from the right sidewall and roughly 2' from the front wall. In doing this I found that I had to adjust the phase to about 160 degrees to get good bass. Crossovers remain at 35 and 37, gain is about 5/8 way up.

My preamp inverts the phase at the outputs which I've Y-adpatered to. Does this effect the phasing of the sub?  ...


Beatlebum:

Sorry I missed this one, its been a very busy (GREAT) week :)  

The easiest way to adjust phase is by playing steady tones at or near the crossover frequency and adjusting the phase until you get the highest output. If you have a meter, place it where your head would normally be, makes it MUCH easier than trying to hear the max output. In your case you'll probably want to try test tones around 40Hz.  Does this answer your question? Let me know if it doesn't or if you have others.