In-Wall surround setup ((NEED HELP!))

~)x(=Fuzzy=)x(~ · « **on:** 6 Oct 2005, 01:23 am »

I've been trying to peice together an in-wall surround sound package for my father (who has never experienced a real sound system).

The last system he owned was a $99 sony Theater-in-a-Box which never worked properly. My family has since pulled together roughly $2000 to cover the cost for 4 in-wall speakers (2 for L-R mains and 2 for rear satellite), a subwoofer, a center channel, and a reciever.

A friend of mine, Keith (AKA danbry39), recommended that I post at ACI for advice from Mike regarding my request. He thought highly of ACI because of the exceptional service and the exceptional quality he has experienced from his own ACI setup, so I am taking his advice.

Can you help me out Mike?

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Oct 2005, 11:45 am »

Fuzzy:

Good to have you here! What kind of questions can we help you with?

DanaA · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Oct 2005, 04:24 pm »

Let me help, Mike, since I know the situation.

Fuzzy's dad has set aside $2000 to purchase a complete home theater system.

I've already recommended a receiver, sub, and cables within his budger, but that leaves around $1000 for the other five speakers.

The father is set on inwall or ceiling speakers for the front left/right and the rears. I told him that some of my friends have bought your inwalls and seem very happy about them.

So, I think he needs to know:

1. Some sort of validation that the inwalls sound pretty decent compared to other inwalls he might purchase.

2. I told him that he should probably get a dedicated center channel, as I just can't see how the voices would sound right coming from a speaker set in the ceiling or wall behind the TV. I could be wrong though. Would something like the Protoge be enough of a timbre match with your inwalls.?
If not, what would you recommend?

Thanks for your help.

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Oct 2005, 12:13 am »

Dana:

Thanks for the input! We sell a ton of the inwalls for surround use. Both in ceiling and inwall. And yes they can also work up front, but up front I would certainly NOT anything ceiling mounted and firing down, just way to diffuse. Can he mount the front speakers inwall somewhere around ear height? What kind of display will be used, and how far out from the wall will it be? This will help me get a better picture of what it's going to look like so I can make some recommendations. Thanks!

DanaA · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Oct 2005, 02:57 am »

Hey, thanks Mike.

I spoke with Sam and he's going to email you some pictures of the room and their Sony Vega. As he indicated, this will be their first home theater experience and I, of course, will be thrilled if they can do it with ACI speakers. His family is very nice and I'd like to do it as well as possible given the parameters they need. Besides, I'll even let Sam wear my ACI shirt around his house.

He'll send those pictures your way.
Keith

~)x(=Fuzzy=)x(~ · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Oct 2005, 06:43 am »

Thanks Mike for your time, it is GREATLY appreciated!

But one thing...I don't have a digital camera at hand...at least not until This saturday.

In response to your message, I do not believe that it is possible to fit an eye-level center speaker into the wall. The television is in a solid wood entertainment center that is tucked into a large cubby. Next to that cubby is an art niche above a fireplace. If you are confused by my humble description, I will have the pictures on saturday.

One more thing, I was hoping to have four 8" round coaxes set into the ceiling. Two in front, and two in back. I have enough funds to also purchase a center channel (maybe the protege) to place on top of the SONY WEGA television. So the "in-ceiling" speakers are meant for just surround sound imaging while the Center channel takes the main stage and the Subwoofer packs the punch.

The reason why I'm repeating this is because it seemed (in your last message) that you had the impression that the "in-ceiling" speakers were going to be used as both the stereo imaging AND the center channel.

Anyways, I hope this clarifies. I wil have those pictures as soon as possible. Thank you again Mike for your time.

ScottMayo · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Oct 2005, 02:46 pm »

Surrounds are usually used to refer to the speakers beside and a bit behind the listener, and (optionally) the ones straight behind the listener. The ones in front are usually called the mains (or just Left and Right), and the center. I think (???) fuzzy's using "surrounds" more generally to mean "the speakers in the corners", which would include the mains.

Putting the mains in the ceiling, firing straight down, is tough on the sound. In-walls in general are sometimes tricky to get sounding right (this is no slam against ACI - it's just that the wall/ceiling becomes a significant part of the speaker's sound and the results can be fussy, even if the speaker has its own enclosure, and no matter who makes it). In-ceilings have the same problem, plus the sound tends to get a little more lost. This isn't to say that it won't work, but it's hard to make it work wonderfully.

There are things you can do to make it better. A hard, reflective surface placed at an angle to the floor, under each speaker, can reflect the sound out towards the audience - caveat, I haven't tried this myself and it's the sort of thing that should be experimented with, not taken on faith.

I'd make one last attempt to talk people out of in-ceiling speakers for (at least) the mains. If it absolutely has to be in-ceiling, I'd play with sound reflecting surfaces, as noted, to try to get the high frequency sound out towards the audience a bit more. A simple sheet of 3/4" plywood (covered with cloth for appearance's sake) is cheap - and may help a lot.

If this is pure HT, and music isn't the main goal, break with tradition and put any extra money into the center speaker. Movies use it heavily (too heavily in my opinion) and you want it to sound as good as possible. *Don't* ceiling-mount the center speaker - little gets weirder than having the villian's voice descending from on high!

On the plus side, anything you do will beat the pants off of a $99 HTIB system.

If you've got in-ceiling lighting, this is the time to take sure they are in nice and tight. Rattling lights are a bane of HT.

balji · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Oct 2005, 03:24 pm »

Let me add my 2 cents to the frey as well.

1) A properly matched pair of inwall Front Left and Right speakers will create a sound stage good enough that you wont need a center channel. All you need is to setup your receiver :that there is no center channel speaker in the system, this will cause the receiver to equally distribute the center channel sound to Front Left and Right.

2) The rear surround Speakers can be In Ceiling but make sure that they are atleast 2 feet behind your sitting area but no more than 3 feet, directly firing below, this will create the rear surround stage for SACD and DVD A listening. For Special Effects this works great too.

3) On the other hand if you can increase your budget a little bit, I would recommend you to spend some extra money on your Front Speakers, Preferably Sapphire XLs, because they will go a long way for you and your will get a DEEEEEEEEP sound stage with them, which will be limited with In-Walls.

Thanx
Balji

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Oct 2005, 05:04 pm »

Scott and Balji bring up good points . . . I'll wait to see the pictures before adding more.

~)x(=Fuzzy=)x(~ · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Oct 2005, 07:01 pm »

Here they are boys (and girls...?)

http://img277.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn06557rb.jpg

http://img321.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn06542mm.jpg

http://img321.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn06566td.jpg

Harry P · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 Oct 2005, 03:35 pm »

Fuzzy, could an inwall be mounted in the narrow space to the left of the TV? You could do inwalls left and right of the TV with a center above if thats the case.

~)x(=Fuzzy=)x(~ · « **Reply #11 on:** 8 Oct 2005, 05:04 pm »

I was considering that, thank you. I could have 2 rectangle 8" coax B-Flat wallspeakers placed in those same positions you mentioned. Fortunately, the picture doesn't do those thin wall areas justice. In reality, they are 12" in width (enough for the 9"+ enclosure?).

I was also considering the idea presented about having the wallspeakers in the original position (ceiling) and have a hard, reflective surface underneath that angles the sound towards the listener. Though I see at an alternate resort, because it would look pretty tacky/bulky. This would defeat the purpose of my dad pre-installing wiring in the ceiling/walls, since the intention was to HIDE the speakers with the home decor.

This is something I may have to talk him out of, but I need to peice together my case (though I'm sure DanaA could easily pursuade him)

Since my joining here, I have browsed the forum and have come up with an idea, in collaboration with your own.

Here it is...

Have two 8" B-flats (one placed left of the art niche and one placed right of the T.V.) and configure them to compensate for the center channel?.

Have three B-flat coax 8" wallspeakers set into the ceiling 2'7" behind the sitting area.

Pair the system with the proper subwoofer. I need advice in this area.
I'm debating between ACI's FOrce, SVS's PB12 ISD, and HSU's VTF-3 MK 2.

Does this work? Or am I just getting impatient... I'll wait until Mike responds.

Thank you all for your advice and time,

Harry P · « **Reply #12 on:** 8 Oct 2005, 05:26 pm »

Fuzzy, I think putting rectangular inwalls on either side of the TV makes sense. You could start with a phantom center and add a true center like the Protege at a latter time. It also looks like you could fit a single Emerald on top of the TV as a center and that would work really well. For the rears surrounds, you're only going to need two, not three.

~)x(=Fuzzy=)x(~ · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Oct 2005, 12:59 am »

Ok..here we go... I have presented my case before my Dad and here are the results:

THE GOOD NEWS: He wants a panasonic reciever (the one with '50' in it) ($299 @ panasonic.com )
He wants the emerald on-walls ($799)
He wants a great subwoofer (under $600)
He wants the B-flats for the rear surround ($170/pr)
He wants wiring from bluejeanscable.com ($100 at most)

THE BAD NEWS: The budget has decreased, he decided to build a sportscar for our pastor. A factory Five Cobra GT. The new budget is
$1000.00.

I know.

After one hour, in vain, trying to talk him into increasing the budget to at least $1500, I retreated and advised him to wait...save up until we can afford it. It's worth the wait I think.

Another course of action might be to buy the reciever and the emeralds to launch off the starting block...and add on as we go. Subwoofer next. Surrounds last.

But I am not confident that the system would ever be finished that way.

So unless I can peice together a great, long-lasting system for $1000 at most, I play the WAITING GAME.

I need a hug.

DanaA · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Oct 2005, 01:18 am »

Hey Sam,

As you aren't here at my house right now, I have to say the on-wall Emeralds has me excited. I know you've seen them at my place, but, and I've posted this before, I think they're outrageously fine speakers for the money. As for the plan of starting out with those (and hopefully some sub), along with the Panasonic, that sounds like a good plan. I'd rather you built up your system the right way over time than to do a slip-shod job impulsively. Also, whereas I wasn't sure about the timbre match with the inwalls, I'm pretty sure the on-walls and the Protoge will be pretty decently matched in this regard, although I'd check with Mike to be sure. And, remember, the ACI's can come in different woods to match whatever decor your parents might want.

The one thing I'd make sure of is that the Panasonic has the phantom center capability, as I have never used this feature before.

We'll be able to discuss this more tomorrow, but I just wanted to chime in.

By the way, Dolores had to throw that old lasagna out of the fridge today.

Inside joke here, folks.

DanaA · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 Oct 2005, 01:24 am »

By the way, I also wanted to add my thanks to all the help Sam has received. I honestly used to keep more up on this stuff, but am so satisfied with my system now that I just enjoy it...of course, all centered around ACI speakers. Not surprisingly, the only purchase I have in mind for down the road is a certain, top-of-the-line, sub by ACI that kind of makes my mouth water.

You guys are the masters of advice.

And, yes, Sam dates my daughter!!! They're a great match.

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Oct 2005, 04:36 pm »

This has been a good thread, a number of folks chipping in with their ideas. If it was me, I'd go with a set of Emerald On-walls to start with the rec. I believe the Dolby standard specifies a phantom center for all models . . . but check for sure. Phantom center can work quite well, but eventually you'll likely want to add a dedicated center if you watch many movies. When you do add the center, consider a single Emerald. It will save you money over the Protege, and be a perfect match to the Emerald On-Walls. A pair of B-Flats in the ceiling for the surrounds, and a Force sub will = a really wonderful system!