DAC

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I.Greyhound Fan

Re: DAC
« Reply #40 on: 29 Oct 2024, 12:36 am »
All I can say is that when we did DAC shootouts that were double blind, the more expensive DAC's alway won.  To say that a $10 dac sounds better than say and Ultra high end DAC say like a DCS is ridiculous. 


And you still have not listed the $300 DAC that sounds better than a $2K dac.


I am done here as this is my last post here.

HAL

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Re: DAC
« Reply #41 on: 29 Oct 2024, 12:53 am »
I've had 3 topping dacs die. E30, E70, and a D70 Octo. They sounded ok, but reliability with Topping is horrible. SMSL has been way more reliable for me. My go to AKM based DAC right now is the Eversolo DMP A8 which is just an amazing piece of audio gear. It does everything. I use it in my living room system with my Caladans and my ANK tube dac with my NX-Oticas.

If you had the Topping E70 version it uses an ESS DAC. 

The Topping E70V is the AKM AK4499EX DAC and still working well.  The single ended output does not sound as good as balanced. 

Good luck with your DAC search.


WGH

Re: DAC
« Reply #42 on: 29 Oct 2024, 02:10 am »
I've been an Audiophile for over 50 years...
But, rather than me tell you what I've heard regarding cheap DACs vs. Expensive DACS.  You would nitpick my impressions and we would get nowhere.

Don't ignore the fun factor. Only 50 years an audiophile Grasshopper? I was building Heathkit amps while you were wearing diapers. But whose counting? Not me (that would be scary). Nice system BTW.  :thumb:


These days blind or double blind DAC evaluations just don't work for me unless I have weeks. At first listen I find DACs sound almost identical to each other. It's the almost part that costs me money.

I like to listen to new electronics for a week, sometimes in the background, sometimes critically and then switch, that is when the differences really reveal themselves. An exciting DAC can get fatiguing, a laid back relaxing sound can get boring. Imaging, depth of soundfield, deep tight bass and micro details like echos is where the better designed DAC's excel, not all systems can do that. My old stereos never imaged or had depth and the bass sucked but the wall of sound kept me happy for years. My tastes changed, now I want it all.

I'm off the DAC bandwagon. I now use a HoloAudio May KTE with a music server and upsample all music to DSD256 using HQPlayer. PCM doesn't do it for me anymore, too sharp sounding. The talk about what chip set is used is only half of the equation, the other half is the algorithms programed into the chipset. Almost all chipsets oversample, it's a better way and easier to filter out distortion than the original brick wall filter. There are as many filters as designers so that is what you are listening to: the filters. The more advanced filters need a lot of horsepower, ie: bigger transformers and regulated power supplies and a higher price.

Want to have some fun? Read a basic description of the filters available in HQPlayer in a very early post by Jussi Laako, the developer. The filter selection has increased and has been refined but this is a good primer. By selecting a filter and noise shaper I can mimic the sound of any DAC made with less distortion.
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/13071-hqplayer-resampling-filter-setup-guide-for-ordinary-person/#comment-175928

My advise to the OP is to buy what fits into your budget, don't overthink it.

Endo2112

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Re: DAC
« Reply #43 on: 29 Oct 2024, 04:34 am »
Again, different ESS chip, not relevant, if talking about a current AKM dac chip, one should discuss a current ESS chip or the statement does not make sense, sorry Rich, blanket statements without reference don't work, give them a listen, with a open mind.

Don

dayneger

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Re: DAC
« Reply #44 on: 29 Oct 2024, 06:02 am »

But, rather than me tell you what I've heard regarding cheap DACs vs. Expensive DACS.  You would nitpick my impressions and we would get nowhere. So, how about a very detailed test that involves a $10 DAC vs. a $20,000 DAC! and 105 Audiophiles?  With 26 of them picking the $10 DAC ! --- With a lot more controls than my opinion, and a lot more data as well. This test involves 4 parts and there is a lot of data.

1.) https://archimago.blogspot.com/2024/04/2024-high-end-dac-blind-listening-survey.html

2.) https://archimago.blogspot.com/2024/05/part-i-high-end-dac-blind-listening.html

3.) https://archimago.blogspot.com/2024/05/high-end-dac-blind-listening-results.html

4.) https://archimago.blogspot.com/2024/06/high-end-dac-blind-listening-results.html

While I'm not keen on trying to one-up others based on numbers of years of doing xyz activity, this test is a wonderful reminder of how subjective the whole audio experience is... which can span from delightful to a total annoyance depending upon one's point of view.

I've developed and launched many, many products in different industries and it can be absolutely agonizing as a product manager to do unbiased customer research and witness people preferring options that I (as a verifiable "expert" in the field) felt were inferior by almost any objective or subjective metric imaginable... after I'd spent months or years crafting exactly that experience.

So one of the ironies of being someone who needs to form clear product visions/perspectives in order to lead teams in developing and launching highly differentiated and (hopefully) compelling product offerings is accepting--even embracing--the enormous range of human perception that can also vary wildly (even within the same individual) depending on mood, context, etc.

It all speaks for keeping an open and mind and jettisoning the illusion of leveraging the easy proxy of the almighty $ as the infallible indicator of how well something might perform for exactly you, in exactly your context.

FWIW, I find wine to be an interesting analogy... so many qualities and preferences and interrelationships with a given individual at a given moment in time/context... who's definitively "right"?

P.S.  Kudos to the listener who opined that they wouldn't change their preference after discovering they'd chosen the $10 Apple dongle!

HAL

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Re: DAC
« Reply #45 on: 29 Oct 2024, 12:28 pm »
Again, different ESS chip, not relevant, if talking about a current AKM dac chip, one should discuss a current ESS chip or the statement does not make sense, sorry Rich, blanket statements without reference don't work, give them a listen, with a open mind.

Don
Don,
I am remarking on the comment about one poster trying the Topping E70 DAC with a current ESS ES9028Pro DAC vs the Topping E70V with the AKM AK4499EX DAC.  He does not reference which version, so I am pointing out there is a difference. 

I also mention that the E70V balanced output sounds better here since it eliminates one opamp summing stage to go from balanced to unbalanced connection per channel.  That also makes a difference since the analog output stage plays a large roll in DAC sound. 

The ESS is a voltage output DAC and the AKM is a current output DAC, so the analog output designs have to be very different since an I/V converter is needed for the R2R ladder DAC output. 

Since I helped develop a DAC with Gary Dodd with a Wolfson WM8741 DAC and did comparisons to other DAC's of the day and people still listen to the Dodd DAC I find the subject interesting, so the details are important.

Rich

 

Cut-Throat

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Re: DAC
« Reply #46 on: 29 Oct 2024, 05:29 pm »
....................................

So one of the ironies of being someone who needs to form clear product visions/perspectives in order to lead teams in developing and launching highly differentiated and (hopefully) compelling product offerings is accepting--even embracing--the enormous range of human perception that can also vary wildly (even within the same individual) depending on mood, context, etc.

It all speaks for keeping an open and mind and jettisoning the illusion of leveraging the easy proxy of the almighty $ as the infallible indicator of how well something might perform for exactly you, in exactly your context.

FWIW, I find wine to be an interesting analogy... so many qualities and preferences and interrelationships with a given individual at a given moment in time/context... who's definitively "right"?

P.S.  Kudos to the listener who opined that they wouldn't change their preference after discovering they'd chosen the $10 Apple dongle!


Exactly, you 'get it'..... And wine is the perfect analogy. How could a $10 Wine taste better than a $500 bottle of wine..... - A big variable is the individual.  I think the Blind Test/Survey of DACs perfectly exposed the Dirty little secret of DACs. If you've just dropped $$$$$ on a DAC, it may be a bit painful to admit it. Even to yourself.

Danny Richie

Re: DAC
« Reply #47 on: 31 Oct 2024, 03:52 pm »
Don,
I am remarking on the comment about one poster trying the Topping E70 DAC with a current ESS ES9028Pro DAC vs the Topping E70V with the AKM AK4499EX DAC.  He does not reference which version, so I am pointing out there is a difference. 

I also mention that the E70V balanced output sounds better here since it eliminates one opamp summing stage to go from balanced to unbalanced connection per channel.  That also makes a difference since the analog output stage plays a large roll in DAC sound. 

The ESS is a voltage output DAC and the AKM is a current output DAC, so the analog output designs have to be very different since an I/V converter is needed for the R2R ladder DAC output. 

Since I helped develop a DAC with Gary Dodd with a Wolfson WM8741 DAC and did comparisons to other DAC's of the day and people still listen to the Dodd DAC I find the subject interesting, so the details are important.

Rich

Hey Rich,

Was your buddy there at Danville going to put together a stand alone DAC?

maaku28

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Re: DAC
« Reply #48 on: 31 Oct 2024, 07:27 pm »
New to AudioCircle and still getting my first posts verified so this may be not be too timely. I'm pretty new to to the HiFi game, my brother-in-law drops some big bucks on gear and got me interested but I'm not as rich as he is, so after getting started with some pretty cheap intro gear(SMLS SA-50 and an inexpensive Topping DAC, I went for RME ADI-2. RME is a German pro audio company and this is their consumer DAC, but boy does it have features. The manual is thick and not perfectly translated from the original German. It has a really cool spectrum analyzer that will show you if a recording is passing DC current in the 0 Hz to 30 Hz range, and show you what your speakers may be unable to reproduce. It will process DSD, exactly how depends on the chip inside, I have an ESS that they substituted for an AKM during Covid shortages and I don't what they have in their now. I saw a good review on the British Audiophile's channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzYREbLR-8s. He's an engineer and he couldn't even explain all the stuff one of these could do. I bought it because I wanted to learn more of the science of digital processing and as I continue to read the manual I learn more and more. For example, analog output filters, I think most DACs lock you into one, but the RME lets you choose from: short-delay sharp, sharp, short delay, slow, NOS (non-oversampling, except it's not really that) and for my chip the proprietary Brickwall filter. It's confusing but I will hopefully learn something. It also has five band PEQ which can be done to right and left channel separately. They emphasize the need for EQ for different recordings, different sets of ears, different tastes. you can also record with this thing, it's loaded. I use the built in pre-amp and volume control and feed it to my Topping LA-90 discrete power amp. Amir ranks that amp as no. 1 for distortion so for about $2300 I can concentrate on speaker building and assume that I have a pretty reference level system. Currently using USB from a Macbook but I want assemble  a Pi base steamer using coax, it won't do SDS I need a Windows machine to really do that right through USB, I believe. I tried a few DSD sample songs with my Mac and they sounded good, but the Mac can only sample so high and the DAC can handle 768 Hz.

HAL

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Re: DAC
« Reply #49 on: 31 Oct 2024, 07:45 pm »
Danny,
Al is designing a simpler 2/4 DSP with DAC processor for use as a 4 channel DAC and DSP crossover with time delay for subs.  The DSP is the same Analog Devices family used in the dspNexus 2/8.

It has Analog inputs in the design and have asked about adding an Async USB audio input.  Would be PC or MAC compatible ASIO USB interface.

We are showing the concept at CAF2024 next week using a dspNexus 2/4 setup using AKM AK4493S DAC's with Magnepan LRS speakers and Orchard Audio Monoblocks.  He will have prototype metalwork that are 1U, 1/2 rack width style chassis to show.  I have also discussed using the AK4499EX DAC's you heard at LSAF2023 as an upgraded unit.

Hopefully there will be good feedback from listeners at the show on the idea.

WGH

Re: DAC
« Reply #50 on: 31 Oct 2024, 09:06 pm »
It has Analog inputs in the design and have asked about adding an Async USB audio input.  Would be PC or MAC compatible ASIO USB interface.

A friend uses the WaveIO in his maxed out ANK 5.1 Signature DAC.

WaveIO card is a high performance USB-to-I2S bridge especially designed for asynchronous audio streaming between any computer equipped with an USB port and virtually any digital audio device or equipment compatible with I2S or S/PDIF interfaces.

32Bit/384 KHz support –  default firmware for all WaveIO cards with DFU option enabled.
32Bit/384 KHz + 64/128 DoP + 64/128/256 Native DSD support

    No drivers needed for MAC OS version 10.6.4 and above
    No driver installation required for Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel
    ASIO/KS/WASAPI/Direct Sound drivers for Windows 7 to 11 (32 and 64 bit)
    Fully featured genuine Thesycon driver package with NO periodic beeps
    Native DSD driver support and other features available only to genuine Thesycon packages!
    Latest Windows 10 & 11 driver for WaveIO board is: v5.68.0.

https://luckit.biz/


HAL

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Re: DAC
« Reply #51 on: 31 Oct 2024, 10:38 pm »
WGH,
Thanks for the info.

Danville has an XMOS U3xx series Asynchronous USB to SPORT interface design for their ADSP 215xx dspBlok's.  Basically, a USB to I2S Bus interface.

No drivers needed for MAC OS ASIO USB interface.   Since it is a multichannel interface, the PC requires an XMOS USB device driver to be installed. 
« Last Edit: 1 Nov 2024, 12:06 pm by HAL »

mkrawcz

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Re: DAC
« Reply #52 on: 31 Oct 2024, 11:12 pm »
A friend uses the WaveIO in his maxed out ANK 5.1 Signature DAC.

WaveIO card is a high performance USB-to-I2S bridge especially designed for asynchronous audio streaming between any computer equipped with an USB port and virtually any digital audio device or equipment compatible with I2S or S/PDIF interfaces.

32Bit/384 KHz support –  default firmware for all WaveIO cards with DFU option enabled.
32Bit/384 KHz + 64/128 DoP + 64/128/256 Native DSD support

    No drivers needed for MAC OS version 10.6.4 and above
    No driver installation required for Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel
    ASIO/KS/WASAPI/Direct Sound drivers for Windows 7 to 11 (32 and 64 bit)
    Fully featured genuine Thesycon driver package with NO periodic beeps
    Native DSD driver support and other features available only to genuine Thesycon packages!
    Latest Windows 10 & 11 driver for WaveIO board is: v5.68.0.

https://luckit.biz/




I need to try this in my ANK.

WGH

Re: DAC
« Reply #53 on: 1 Nov 2024, 12:18 am »
I need to try this in my ANK.

You should use a good 5V linear regulated power supply with the WaveIO. Everyone has their favorite, I like the Acopian 5EB200 linear regulated power supply because the specifications are clearly stated and they are always available for $20 on eBay, they retail for $225.