[Dsaldivar]

Hi!
This is what Alan Shaw designer and owner of Harbeth speakers has to say about watts and speakers:


"I think that I've amply and comprehensively demonstrated that flea powered amps are a very poor choice, regardless of the sweet talk of the marketing romance. Consider the entire human muscle power of an orchestra playing - perhaps 50 lungs and 200 arms - converting the chemical energy stored in muscle tissue into motion, and via their instruments into sound. What sort of bizarre logic is there behind thinking that a 7W micro-powered amplifier could regenerate those sound waves at home with anything like the true dynamic range of the recording?

To put it into context, 7W is about the same amount of power as a night light placed into a child's bedroom. Nothing"

Full thread can be found at:

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2613-How-much-amplifier-power-do-I-REALLY-need&p=34629#post34629

[RDavidson]

 

Unquestionably, Harbeths are very nice speakers, but Alan should stick to what he knows best. The only thing he comprehensively demonstrates is that his speakers are not high efficiency designs. Talk about marketing romance.....
Another great speaker designer was quoted many times to have said "What this country (USA) needs is a really good 5 watt amp." We all know who said that.
Was that marketing romance too? Of course!

How much power one needs is based almost entirely on:
1) The speaker design
2) The listener's preference (music type and average db's)
3) The environment and listening distance

In terms of chosing a system, point 2 and 3 should be given the most consideration, then point 1.....which then should lead to point 1b. Chosing an appropriate amplifier.

[steve f]

There isn't much information concerning the RM OTL1 except that it looks like a RM 200 with plate caps. The output is to have a multi tap auto former for greater efficiency and tube life. I couldn't find more. Sorry.

I also must say I agree with Alan Shaw of Harbath about power amplifiers. And I don't even like his speakers. To accurately reproduce sound at any kind of near live listening level requires significant amplifier power. The most noticeable form of distortion is clipping. If you have efficient speakers at least 25 WPC of tube amp is a good start. Double that for solid state. That said, if you listen at low levels, a couple of WPC may be enough. I like my big SS amps for their dynamics. I do use a tiny OTL for voicing my own speakers. It isn't loud, but it sounds phenomenal. Smaller single driver speakers like Omegas do sound good and provide excellent detail with tiny amps if you exercise restraint with the volume knob. And if you are careful, so do big SS amps.

steve

Added: RDavidson, As we all know, Mr Klipsch's K-horns are very efficient at about 104db. A 5 WPC amp can provide enough power for live jazz band levels. My designs are about 10Db less efficient and need a bit more power, but can play even louder. The Omegas can hit 100+Db in a reasonably sized room with moderate amplification. That's impressive. I doubt the Harbath speakers can play at K-horn levels at any amount of power. Design is always a series of compromises.

[rebbi]

The color. As crazy as that sounds, I was able to pick up some M-Lores for a really good price, but they were in satin red. I just really wanted to hear for myself what all the hype was about. If they were in a wood veneer or high gloss finish, I would just keep them and be happy. They are a wonderful sounding speaker.

Jeff,
Having had the chance to audition a pair of Tekton Lore Reference speakers in my system recently and still very interested in Omega (probably 7 XRS) I would LOVE to hear your Tekton "versus" Omega thoughts!

[RDavidson]

Note : This thread is about amp recommendations for Omega speakers, not Harbeths, not Klipsch, not Tekton, etc etc. While there has been some useful discussion about amps and power requirements, simply posting info by another speaker designer without context or relating it back to the thread topic is rather useless, and could be easily construed as pot stirring.......which is why I was rather dismissive of it (regarding the Harbeth info).

[rebbi]

Note : This thread is about amp recommendations for Omega speakers, not Harbeths, not Klipsch, not Tekton, etc etc. While there has been some useful discussion about amps and power requirements, simply posting info by another speaker designer without context or relating it back to the thread topic is rather useless, and could be easily construed as pot stirring.......which is why I was rather dismissive of it (regarding the Harbeth info).

No, no stirring up the pot intended. I see your point. I probably should have asked that question through a personal message.

[RDavidson]

No big deal. I was speaking more specifically about Dsaldivar's random Harbeth plug. I'm suspecting he did this, as several people have posted their positive experiences switching from Harbeths to Omegas, and he feels a need to defend Harbeth or "teach" us something we don't know. At least you're talking about / are interested in Omega speakers.

Threads can get off topic quickly and become a mess of thoughts which have nothing to do with the thread topic. I think all members have been guilty of this at one point or another.

[wellpleased]

 

[pstrisik]

No big deal. I was speaking more specifically about Dsaldivar's random Harbeth plug. I'm suspecting he did this, as several people have posted their positive experiences switching from Harbeths to Omegas, and he feels a need to defend Harbeth or "teach" us something we don't know. At least you're talking about / are interested in Omega speakers.

Threads can get off topic quickly and become a mess of thoughts which have nothing to do with the thread topic. I think all members have been guilty of this at one point or another.

I believe he has or had Super Alnico Monitors.  Interesting idea about power requirements nonetheless, even if not in agreement.  All the more interesting as it comes from a prominent speaker designer.

.....Peter

[RDavidson]

I believe he has or had Super Alnico Monitors.  Interesting idea about power requirements nonetheless, even if not in agreement.  All the more interesting as it comes from a prominent speaker designer.

.....Peter

There's actually no disagreement. Harbeths require more power than Omegas to sound their best. What does this fact have to do with Omegas or other high efficiency speaker designs in the context of this thread? I say, very little. It is interesting, but out of place.

[monsterbill]

I own a set of Super 3Rs (older, with Fostex).  I've paired them with a bunch of amps, including various cheap digital, sundry Chinese SEP/SET amps (Miniwatt, Musical Paradise, Dared and some others I'm forgetting), then finally the Almarro 205A MKII.  The Almarro was great for my purposes, and so I stopped looking.  If I weren't satisfied, I would've moved on to Decware.

The problem I have with Class D digital amps, is that while they offer etched detail in some regard, they suck out information in the midrange presence area. Just too dry where I want them to be sweet.

The cheaper SEP amps were too congested for my tastes, but the Almarro amp is just right for me.  Bear in mind that my goal with this system was to impart a level of euphony to the often crappy source material I have on this system.  YMMV

Cheers and happy listening!

[Canada Rob]

The problem I have with Class D digital amps, is that while they offer etched detail in some regard, they suck out information in the midrange presence area. Just too dry where I want them to be sweet.

The cheaper SEP amps were too congested for my tastes, but the Almarro amp is just right for me. 

The Temple Audio Bantam Gold doesn't suffer from an etched top end or lack of midrange presence.  I put the Temple up against a classic late 70's class A/B integrated (Onkyo A-7040), and the Temple had a smoother and more refined sound (with no tube buffer).  Some Omega owners are liking the Crown XLS-1500. 

I've only heard one SEP, the latest version of the Glow Audio Amp One - very spacious sound and not congested at all. 

There's good and bad in all amp categories.  Your Almarro is one of the best affordable SEPs out there.  Good choice.

[monsterbill]

RE: Class D, I probably shouldn't have used the loaded word "etched," as what I really meant was that they are very quiet and resolving.  I gave Tripath a serious, years' long go, that went beyond the renditions I tried to use with my Omegas.  I demo'ed a Bel Canto for a while, and heard a very nice implementation by Stan Warren (who later abandoned the technology because of the same issues I had), and I still have a modded Teac performing a yeoman's job on my Klipsch horns.

The problem I had with them was that none of them were as involving in the midrange as tubes or well-implemented traditional solid state.  A lack of "presence." The problem is subtle and sort of hard to describe, and I'm only clarifying because I wish someone would've pointed this out to me before I spent so long being puzzled by why I wasn't enjoying otherwise great sounding amps. 

I'm told that other similar technologies (Hypex) solved the problem.

I've seen Canada Rob's contrary and well-informed posts on this board, and JonBee's elsewhere, so I'll just say YMMV.

[DBC]

monsterbill wrote:

RE: Class D,

The problem I had with them was that none of them were as involving in the midrange as tubes or well-implemented traditional solid state.  A lack of "presence." The problem is subtle and sort of hard to describe, and I'm only clarifying because I wish someone would've pointed this out to me before I spent so long being puzzled by why I wasn't enjoying otherwise great sounding amps. 

I mentioned earlier that I listened to all three Peachtree Class D amps in my listening room for several days(65se, 125se, 220se). All three utilize a different Class D amplifier section from different manufactures. Don't recall of hand what the 65se is equipped with but the 125se is Texas Instruments and the 220se is B&O ICE.

I would characterize the 65se and 125se along the same lines as monsterbill stated above. Both a bit dry & sterile, just did not feel the rhythm and pace from these two units. The 220se on the other hand just makes you want to Boogie, a very stark difference. So based on my limited experience with the Peachtree line, some Class D amps will sound considerably better than others depending on the technology and implementation.

[RDavidson]

ICE amps aren't the "class D flavor of the month" technology anymore, which is good for those who could care less about the latest tech and care more about what sounds pleasing to one's own ears.

[Canada Rob]

At the paltry price Temple charges for their Bantam Gold, it's a low risk purchase.  BTW it's not a Class T amplifier like so many of the little amps out there.  I find mine highly musical, and the build quality is in a different class than the Trends, Firestone, etc.  I moved my Temple/NOS DAC/Super 3i desktop system off the desktop and into the room, and wow does it sound great.  I'm running no sub either.

[Canada Rob]

I thought I would exume this thread to add some interesting amplifier options that work well with Omegas, and these aren't budget amps either.  It shows that Omegas are by no means outclassed by a more high end front end.  This information comes from a friend of mine in Vancouver who flips a lot of gear.  I'll quote him.

"Well, when I bought the Super 3XRS I had no idea I would soon be married to them.  Reason being I buy and sell a lot of gear and actually do very well with it.  In doing so I have had the pleasure to run some solid state integrated amps ranging from 60wpc to 150wpc.  I found the speakers performed amazingly in all areas.  The amps are listed below.  The speakers are good with anything I have thrown at them.  They will never leave.

Moon I-1: 60wpc
Ayre Ax-7e: 60wpc
Bryston b60r sst: 60wpc
Nuforce ref IA-18: 135wpc
Balanced Audio (BAT) Vk-300x solid state: 150wpc"

[werd]

Using a fullrange driver with no cross over and solid state into 93 dB. I would look for SS that best mimics a SET. Any SS that is rated at 1khz THD rating. Get rid of the toroidal VA power. Look for an E block transformer. Anything that is not good at driving multiple drivers with cross overs with transient power. Since really well designed SS is great at powering a soundstage that is stiff using multiple drivers in an enclosure built to do so. It is not what we have here.  The new Omega drivers are rigid enough by the sou ds of it on this forum. Just let the cabinet work its magic. That is how i look at it. YMMV

[vinagunner]

v

[roscoe65]

wut?

Using a fullrange driver with no cross over and solid state into 93 dB. I would look for SS that best mimics a SET. Any SS that is rated at 1khz THD rating. Get rid of the toroidal VA power. Look for an E block transformer. Anything that is not good at driving multiple drivers with cross overs with transient power. Since really well designed SS is great at powering a soundstage that is stiff using multiple drivers in an enclosure built to do so. It is not what we have here.  The new Omega drivers are rigid enough by the sou ds of it on this forum. Just let the cabinet work its magic. That is how i look at it. YMMV