AudioCircle

Community => Non-audio hobbies and interests => Cars and Bikes => Topic started by: rif on 8 Sep 2016, 08:11 pm

Title: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: rif on 8 Sep 2016, 08:11 pm
Before I jump down the rabbit hole and register at an enthusiasts site, i thought I'd ask you guys.

What brands of cold air intake kits and front strut bars would you recommend?  I have a 2008 Nissan Maxima (standard V6, 3.5L).  No other mods are on the car.  Its my daily driver, absolutely no racing.  I'm looking for something (CAI) to give me a little bump in passing acceleration  (and installing one sounds like a good intro into the car world).

I've read up on k&n, afe, injen, stillen, nismo (no longer made, ugh).





Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: zybar on 8 Sep 2016, 09:40 pm
Before I jump down the rabbit hole and register at an enthusiasts site, i thought I'd ask you guys.

What brands of cold air intake kits and front strut bars would you recommend?  I have a 2008 Nissan Maxima (standard V6, 3.5L).  No other mods are on the car.  Its my daily driver, absolutely no racing.  I'm looking for something (CAI) to give me a little bump in passing acceleration  (and installing one sounds like a good intro into the car world).

I've read up on k&n, afe, injen, stillen, nismo (no longer made, ugh).

I have positive experiences with afe intake kits, but that is on BMW's.

Quality product and straight forward installation.

That said, I highly doubt it is providing the HP boost it is claiming.

George
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: *Scotty* on 8 Sep 2016, 09:48 pm
When your car was new it was rated at 255HP, at this point in time it will have somewhat less than that. In order to make a substantial improvement in passing capability you will need to bump up the horse power by somewhere near 20%, which would be about 50HP.
 A cold air intake and a low restriction air filter will not increase your horse power by this amount. In fact you won't be able to tell you have added these components when it comes to changing the seat of pants driving experience.
You may notice a small increase in gas mileage,or not.
Scotty
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: rif on 8 Sep 2016, 10:01 pm
Yeah, unfortunately, i realize the gains, if any, are marginal at best and i won't be able to tell even if they were relatively significant (say 10hp as some mfg claim). 

But something is drawing me to it - likely that I've been watching Wheeler Dealers and other car shows - and this seems like a project i can tackle for only a few hundred $. I've never done car work and this seems like a nice intro.

Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: srb on 8 Sep 2016, 10:33 pm
What Cold Air Intakes can most always accomplish is generating more intake noise.  For some, that can give the impression that the car is faster and more powerful, as can a louder exhaust.

If your expectations are realistic (probably less than half of advertised gains) and you don't mind the extra intake noise, they're fine, although here in the Southwest where washes and low areas can fill up quickly with water during rains, some of the units that position the intake much lower to the ground are cause for concern.

Steve
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Early B. on 8 Sep 2016, 10:54 pm
Interestingly, I have the same question about air intake systems. I've been seriously considering one for a 2014 Toyota Tacoma 4 cylinder 2.7L engine. The reviews for a  K&N seem pretty good, but I'm still not sure if it's worth the investment.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000E5XOUY/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3ALDHEM2LTMUK&coliid=I1V6QDK0R5DPGI&psc=1

Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: rif on 8 Sep 2016, 11:02 pm
What Cold Air Intakes can most always accomplish is generating more intake noise.  For some, that can give the impression that the car is faster and more powerful, as can a louder exhaust.

If your expectations are realistic (probably less than half of advertised gains) and you don't mind the extra intake noise, they're fine, although here in the Southwest where washes and low areas can fill up quickly with water during rains, some of the units that position the intake much lower to the ground are cause for concern.

Steve

I'd only install one where the filter is at the battery height.  Filters down at bumper height scare me. "...cause for concern..." is an understatement  :o
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: zybar on 8 Sep 2016, 11:08 pm
Yeah, unfortunately, i realize the gains, if any, are marginal at best and i won't be able to tell even if they were relatively significant (say 10hp as some mfg claim). 

But something is drawing me to it - likely that I've been watching Wheeler Dealers and other car shows - and this seems like a project i can tackle for only a few hundred $. I've never done car work and this seems like a nice intro.

Improved air intake + a software tune + an exhaust change can make a BIG IMPROVEMENT!!

I did this in my previous BMW 335xi and my current BMW M3 and in both cases I was able to get almost an extra 100HP.

George

Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: rif on 8 Sep 2016, 11:21 pm
Improved air intake + a software tune + an exhaust change can make a BIG IMPROVEMENT!!

I did this in my previous BMW 335xi and my current BMW M3 and in both cases I was able to get almost an extra 100HP.

George

I have no doubt that the software tune (is that the same as chipping it?) would make a huge difference.  In my situation, it presents two problems, $$$$ and I have no idea where to get it done.

And my Maxima is fwd, so its not meant for large amounts of power like your (very nice) rwd M3 and awd 3series xi.



Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: zybar on 8 Sep 2016, 11:40 pm
I have no doubt that the software tune (is that the same as chipping it?) would make a huge difference.  In my situation, it presents two problems, $$$$ and I have no idea where to get it done.

And my Maxima is fwd, so its not meant for large amounts of power like your (very nice) rwd M3 and awd 3series xi.

Yes, now you connect directly to the CPU and reprogram it - you generally don't put in a new chip like the old days.

You can absolutely tune fwd cars.  I tuned multiple VW GTI's and they were front wheel drive.

I would check on a Nissan forum for ideas on any possible changes or ideas.  That's where you are going to get the most help.

Good luck.

George
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Dieterle Tool on 8 Sep 2016, 11:42 pm
If you have a MAF sensor inline with your intake system, K&N would not be recommended.  :nono: They use an oil based filtering material and can pass residue onto the sensor and clog it up.

CAI's do little for horsepower but allow the air intake to breath cooler air and sound more aggressive. More benefits to be had for a turbo engine.

Front brace may only be really appreciated if you cross track, looks cool however. And doesn't cost much.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Folsom on 9 Sep 2016, 12:06 am
A strut brace might be good depending on how the car acts, but it's not the first thing I'd look at. In general I think most cars could use better sway bars, especially the balance between front and rear since many over and under steer.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: zybar on 9 Sep 2016, 12:08 am
A strut brace might be good depending on how the car acts, but it's not the first thing I'd look at. In general I think most cars could use better sway bars, especially the balance between front and rear since many over and under steer.

I'd look at my tires first.

Moving to a good set of tires can transform how a car rides and handles.

George
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: TomS on 9 Sep 2016, 12:16 am
I'd look at my tires first.

Moving to a good set of tires can transform how a car rides and handles.

George
I agree 110%. You replace them as wear and tear at some point anyway. Tires can make a huge difference, without having to resort to low tread wear summer tires, there are many great choices these days.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Folsom on 9 Sep 2016, 12:18 am
That's a good idea too. I'm pretty sensitive to the motion in the ocean type feel of the suspension configuration... drives me a bit bonkers when things handle like a boat, or over/under. Tires can't fix that but I sure prefer the grip of a summer tire compared to some all-seasosns and winter tires that feel like death looming on freeway corners!
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: drewm on 9 Sep 2016, 12:41 am
Improved air intake + a software tune + an exhaust change can make a BIG IMPROVEMENT!!

I did this in my previous BMW 335xi and my current BMW M3 and in both cases I was able to get almost an extra 100HP.

George

Software tunes make a big difference in turbocharged cars, for naturally aspirated cars they don't do much. The OP doesn't have a turbocharged car.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: zybar on 9 Sep 2016, 12:47 am
Software tunes make a big difference in turbocharged cars, for naturally aspirated cars they don't do much. The OP doesn't have a turbocharged car.

Not true.

My M3 is normally aspirated and the GTI's I referred to previously were normally aspirated as well.

George
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: RDavidson on 9 Sep 2016, 12:53 am
If you're going to add a CAI, the next thing to probably do is the exhaust. After that you start looking at turbos, intercoolers, etc. But at some point, you might ask yourself if you really want to spend that kind of money on your current car vs just getting something like a Subaru WRX or Ford Focus RS which are already "tuned." I've had the same thoughts as you regarding my car. It really seems that you either need to go ahead and jump in and at least do everything up to the point of turbos etc, or go without. Pretty much anything less than CAI AND exhaust is a waste. So, you're probably looking at a good $1500-$2000 for that, at least.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Gopher on 9 Sep 2016, 02:13 am
Improved air intake + a software tune + an exhaust change can make a BIG IMPROVEMENT!!

I did this in my previous BMW 335xi and my current BMW M3 and in both cases I was able to get almost an extra 100HP.

George

Not apples to apples, bro.  Your 335 made that big a diff because it's a turbo charged n54 or n55 motor.  Software is a much bigger deal in this instance as your literally telling your cars computer to add serval pounds of boost.   If I'm not mistaken the maxina is an NA car and he'll probably net 10-15whp messing with software.

That's said, rock on with your bimmer!  I just did software, CAI and catless down pipes to my own 535i.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: rif on 9 Sep 2016, 03:22 am
Getting back to my original question - which CAI brands would you recommend?  (exhaust, tuning, tires are off the table since I'll probably get a new car in a year or two)

All good advice so far!  Based on that, let me reframe my goals: I'm looking for a beginners project that 1) doesn't cost too much, 2) can be accomplished with what I have (ie no ramp or lift, 3) pushes what I'm comfortable doing so at the end I'm more confident and have a good sense of satisfaction (I've never done anything like this)

I think a CAI fits with those goals, just need to figure out which one.




Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: drphoto on 9 Sep 2016, 03:39 am
GTI is a turbo car.  from Mk 4 onward 1.8T then the 2.0T from Mk5 to present.  Yeah, the early variants were NA.

All replies pretty spot on. You can get some big power gains on turbo cars w/ ECM refresh, though it generally means running higher octane fuel.

Yeah most the HP gains claimed by the manufacturers of CAI & Catbacks are hype.As stated you might get 10-15HP at crank for an outlay of $1500.

But as crazy audiophiles we spend a lot of money on dubious things like 'magic' wire.  :D So maybe 'magic' piping on a car makes sense.  :scratch:

I wrestled w/ this very question for my VW GSW/JSW 2.5. Probably not worth the money.

Now by front strut bar,  did you mean front strut tower brace, or front sway bar? Strut brace would be good if you are really pushing car hard. If you meant sway bar, I would ask how does the car handle now? If it seems to understeer, then going to a stiffer rear sway bar can help w/ that.

All that being said, I've read that Ingen makes a fine product, especially for Japanese cars, and they are somewhat less expensive that other. The sell the type that does not locate the intake down low where you have to worry about hydrolocking. I understand the urge to upgrade. I've got a box full of suspension parts waiting to go under my wagon, just haven't had time to install.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: rif on 9 Sep 2016, 03:55 am
Strut device - its the simple one that connects across the top of engine bay. Sorry for the wrong terminology. See picture.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150005)
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: DaveC113 on 9 Sep 2016, 05:17 am
I wouldn't do it. It'll make the car much noisier when accelerating and might cause issues with proper MAF readings which is a big deal. Not only the oil on the filter is an issue but also turbulence at the MAF. If you want to be safe any modifications should be followed up with a dyno run with a wideband O2 setup and datalogging. It's likely your car would require a different ECU program than stock to account for the differences.

Think about what you really want, then find the car closest to that and buy it.

Some vehicles do need to be slightly adjusted to drive as intended, like the Subaru WRX/STi, but the Maxima isn't really one of those cars a few mods will make a big difference with. On a WRX you can make 50+ HP and even more torque very easily while also improving driveability and fuel economy just by buying a downpipe and a tuning device. If you want to get into tuning and working on a car buy one where it'll make a difference and there's some real performance potential. Subaru is my choice... the WRX/STi are great cars, lots of fun to drive, practical, AWD, and hold their value. Most modern muscle cars are much more powerful, but usually aren't as practical. If I could have a pure toy though I might go for a Vette... I drove the previous gen Z06 and it was spectacular. :)
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: zybar on 9 Sep 2016, 10:25 am
GTI is a turbo car.  from Mk 4 onward 1.8T then the 2.0T from Mk5 to present.  Yeah, the early variants were NA.

All replies pretty spot on. You can get some big power gains on turbo cars w/ ECM refresh, though it generally means running higher octane fuel.

Yeah most the HP gains claimed by the manufacturers of CAI & Catbacks are hype.As stated you might get 10-15HP at crank for an outlay of $1500.

But as crazy audiophiles we spend a lot of money on dubious things like 'magic' wire.  :D So maybe 'magic' piping on a car makes sense.  :scratch:

I wrestled w/ this very question for my VW GSW/JSW 2.5. Probably not worth the money.

Now by front strut bar,  did you mean front strut tower brace, or front sway bar? Strut brace would be good if you are really pushing car hard. If you meant sway bar, I would ask how does the car handle now? If it seems to understeer, then going to a stiffer rear sway bar can help w/ that.

All that being said, I've read that Ingen makes a fine product, especially for Japanese cars, and they are somewhat less expensive that other. The sell the type that does not locate the intake down low where you have to worry about hydrolocking. I understand the urge to upgrade. I've got a box full of suspension parts waiting to go under my wagon, just haven't had time to install.

My GTI's were VR6's - no turbo.

I should have stated that.

George
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Dieterle Tool on 9 Sep 2016, 06:23 pm
I have no experience with Nissan's but pretty sure a tune is not required when replacing stock air box with a CAI system. This is a "plug-and-play" modification, same as the strut brace.  :green:

You really should sign up with a Nissan forum if you want to start dabbling with your whip. But I think your on the right track for simple mods that make you want to jump in the driver seat for every errand.

Dieter
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: S Clark on 9 Sep 2016, 06:42 pm
When my daughter got her license in 2003, I bought her a 97 Acura Integra that had an AEM cold air intake installed as I wanted her to learn on a stick shift.  I was going to remove the CAI, but to go back stock was going to be around $400.  So I left it in- mistake.  When she drove through water that was only about 8" deep and hydrolocked the engine  :duh: we had to rebuild it.  A piston had to be replaced, so we went ahead and put new rings and bearings in throughout $$$$.  I've still got it sort of as a back up vehicle.   But I'll never put a CAI in anything that meant for transportation. 
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: jupiterboy on 9 Sep 2016, 07:04 pm
It will be car dependent. Some give more top end power, some more low end. Some can cause CEL, so do go to a specialist forum and see what the wisdom is.

Good tires are a much better investment. Good progressive springs and better brake pads would be my first moves.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: rif on 9 Sep 2016, 11:08 pm
Ok,  I think you guys have convinced me to not get a CAI.  I might still get the strut brace thing since its cheap enough.

So I'll look into getting WRX Limited or STI Limited in the next year or two.  That should give me time to learn to drive a stick.

Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: DaveC113 on 10 Sep 2016, 12:56 am
Ok,  I think you guys have convinced me to not get a CAI.  I might still get the strut brace thing since its cheap enough.

So I'll look into getting WRX Limited or STI Limited in the next year or two.  That should give me time to learn to drive a stick.

I just got a '16 STi Limited as a result of a distracted driver totaling my '14 WRX hatch... she blew through a red light and plowed into me from the side going about 40 mph! Luckily Subarus are safe cars, I walked away with only minor injuries.

It was used with 600 miles on it, previous owner spent $5k+ on upgrades then returned it to the dealer after the family complained. I got it for $3k under blue book and got the $5k worth of extras too, otherwise I'd probably own another WRX. I have a 2nd set of very expensive wheels with Blizzaks, tint and clear bra (entire front of car is done!), $1k lojack system, chin spoiler, all weather mats, SPT exhaust, short throw shifter, wheel locks... lol. It was too good a deal to pass up!  :green: 

The newest generation of WRX/STi are excellent cars... while they look similar try to test drive both, they are VERY different cars from the driver's seat! 
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Early B. on 10 Sep 2016, 12:59 am
Ok,  I think you guys have convinced me to not get a CAI.

Yep. They talked me out of it, too.  :lol:

Yesterday, I was looking at changing out my shocks along with a lift kit, but decided not to do anything else. I've already installed new rims, tires, and running boards on my truck, so I'm gonna give my wallet a break and just enjoy what I have (although the Pedal Commander is still on my wishlist). 
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: drphoto on 10 Sep 2016, 02:55 am
Doh......forgot about the VW VR6's.  :duh:

To OP, I agree w/ the recommendations if you just have to mod something to look at suspension and/or tires and wheels. But that being said, I don't think a strut tower brace is gonna do anything for you unless you are driving at the limit.

If you want cool, then think wheels. If you want handling think shock/struts and springs. Plus performance tires. Bigger rims, while looking cool offer potentially  better handling as they have less sidewall flex and generally get wider, but the do weigh more. More unsprung weight hurts acceleration and puts more stress on brakes.

 Personally I think it's more fun to have a car that you can flog around and have fun at relatively low speeds, than one that just goes fast. Just going way fast will either get you tickets or worse....get you hurt.

 But just another free opinion from the 'net.  :wink:
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Johnny2Bad on 10 Sep 2016, 07:27 am
Most "Cold Air Intakes" don't suck cold air and absolutely have no Ram Air effect, and in some cases they remove the factory Helmholtz Resonator effect that can improve low-to-midrange torque that small displacement motors tend to lack. You need to use a manometer or at least wool tufts to find out where your low pressure intake area is ... it is NOT always at the windshield/hood interface but critically dependent on the shape of the front third of the vehicle. On almost every vehicle the area where the front license plate normally resides is the best spot for intake air (have something to keep water out or allow it to drain as this is close to the road surface and vehicles in front of you will spray water there more than higher up).

The front strut brace is helpful if:
It is actually rigid rather than decorative
You have a MacPherson Strut front suspension geometry. It does help with a front Shock geometry but much, much less so and may not be cost effective in that case.

Sway bars significantly affect handling. The stiffness and to a lesser extent weight (solid vs tubular) are important factors. You should consider changes to the rear suspension with regard to sway bars (some cars have none in the rear, some cars benefit from removing a rear sway bar, others by stiffening it) in concert with changes to the front sway. Any changes to sway bars will affect the car's tendency with regard to oversteer/understeer, so the first thing to do is decide which tendency at the limit you prefer. FWD typically will understeer but there could be a transition point which might be abrupt and difficult to correct for. None the less a sway bar change will move the handling one way or the other, even if a FWD vehicle that will always understeer regardless, you have an opportunity to make it understeer less or more, as the case may be.

In some cars you can also add a rear bar to stiffen the MacPherson struts or Shock mount towers. Are the towers visible from inside the trunk in your car?

Do not underestimate the value of low unsprung weight per corner. It will affect handling more than changes to the front sway, for example, and at the same time, any benefits a front sway adds will be enhanced with low unsprung weight. Run, don't walk, from any aftermarket wheel that does not list the weight in the size you are considering. That is not a guideline, that is a Directive From Above. No exceptions. Do not buy any wheel/tire combo that is not lighter than the OEM figures.

Also determine the weight of the tire you can fit to any wheel, and don't forget the weight of lug nuts. DO NOT compromise strength when selecting lug nuts, but do choose lighter variants. Also the valve stem can be lighter which makes balance and handling improvements.

After the wheel / tire / lugnuts / valve stem weight, you can move to aftermarket brake calipers or two-piece brake rotors. There will typically be perhaps 6+ pounds of unsprung weight you can remove there for an import car. Check out the OEM calipers you may be able to pick up cheaply from a wrecker that were offered on high performance variants of your car or interchange with your geometry. Buy good (but street, not race type) brake pads.

Any bolt-on suspension / frame braces that were offered for your make / model but were not installed on your option level should be added if they exist.

You should replace any bushings involved in any suspension work you do, but perhaps consider if you are willing to put in a whole-car poly bushing kit ... they are a lot of work to install. They will add noise and stiffen everything, making the ride less comfortable. People will always tell you to go poly but you may find simply replacing the OEM rubber bushings offer enough improvement (they are a wear item) without affecting Noise Vibration Handling (NVH) as much so you still have a comfortable ride for the wife & kids to suffer in, and for a daily driver.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Folsom on 10 Sep 2016, 08:43 am
Do very many cars have strut tower shapes but not have actual coilovers?

Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: jupiterboy on 18 Sep 2016, 06:28 pm
Do not underestimate the value of low unsprung weight per corner. It will affect handling more than changes to the front sway, for example, and at the same time, any benefits a front sway adds will be enhanced with low unsprung weight. Run, don't walk, from any aftermarket wheel that does not list the weight in the size you are considering. That is not a guideline, that is a Directive From Above. No exceptions. Do not buy any wheel/tire combo that is not lighter than the OEM figures.

Also determine the weight of the tire you can fit to any wheel, and don't forget the weight of lug nuts. DO NOT compromise strength when selecting lug nuts, but do choose lighter variants. Also the valve stem can be lighter which makes balance and handling improvements.

Good advice in my experience. I have a low-torque, high rpm engine made by Yamaha. Best thing I did for it was to get some nice aluminum wheels right at 13lbs each. Now with tires (slightly wider than stock) and lugs I'm still right at factory spec weight, although it's not exactly the same because of the weight distribution.

After that, I got a slightly lighter flywheel (not unsprung) and improved the brakes and suspension and I'm set. No need to goofy bolt ons.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: yeldarb on 18 Sep 2016, 06:38 pm
I bought a 2011 Hyundai Sonata when they came out.  Lot of high strength steel in the body.  Which, I theorize, rang like a bell.  I added an inexpensive strut bar to improve the steering and handling and it also made the car quieter.  Shark Racing had lots of stuff.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Peter J on 18 Sep 2016, 08:07 pm
Most "Cold Air Intakes" don't suck cold air and absolutely have no Ram Air effect, and in some cases they remove the factory Helmholtz Resonator effect that can improve low-to-midrange torque that small displacement motors tend to lack. You need to use a manometer or at least wool tufts to find out where your low pressure intake area is ... it is NOT always at the windshield/hood interface but critically dependent on the shape of the front third of the vehicle. On almost every vehicle the area where the front license plate normally resides is the best spot for intake air (have something to keep water out or allow it to drain as this is close to the road surface and vehicles in front of you will spray water there more than higher up).

The front strut brace is helpful if:
It is actually rigid rather than decorative
You have a MacPherson Strut front suspension geometry. It does help with a front Shock geometry but much, much less so and may not be cost effective in that case.

Sway bars significantly affect handling. The stiffness and to a lesser extent weight (solid vs tubular) are important factors. You should consider changes to the rear suspension with regard to sway bars (some cars have none in the rear, some cars benefit from removing a rear sway bar, others by stiffening it) in concert with changes to the front sway. Any changes to sway bars will affect the car's tendency with regard to oversteer/understeer, so the first thing to do is decide which tendency at the limit you prefer. FWD typically will understeer but there could be a transition point which might be abrupt and difficult to correct for. None the less a sway bar change will move the handling one way or the other, even if a FWD vehicle that will always understeer regardless, you have an opportunity to make it understeer less or more, as the case may be.

In some cars you can also add a rear bar to stiffen the MacPherson struts or Shock mount towers. Are the towers visible from inside the trunk in your car?

Do not underestimate the value of low unsprung weight per corner. It will affect handling more than changes to the front sway, for example, and at the same time, any benefits a front sway adds will be enhanced with low unsprung weight. Run, don't walk, from any aftermarket wheel that does not list the weight in the size you are considering. That is not a guideline, that is a Directive From Above. No exceptions. Do not buy any wheel/tire combo that is not lighter than the OEM figures.

Also determine the weight of the tire you can fit to any wheel, and don't forget the weight of lug nuts. DO NOT compromise strength when selecting lug nuts, but do choose lighter variants. Also the valve stem can be lighter which makes balance and handling improvements.

After the wheel / tire / lugnuts / valve stem weight, you can move to aftermarket brake calipers or two-piece brake rotors. There will typically be perhaps 6+ pounds of unsprung weight you can remove there for an import car. Check out the OEM calipers you may be able to pick up cheaply from a wrecker that were offered on high performance variants of your car or interchange with your geometry. Buy good (but street, not race type) brake pads.

Any bolt-on suspension / frame braces that were offered for your make / model but were not installed on your option level should be added if they exist.

You should replace any bushings involved in any suspension work you do, but perhaps consider if you are willing to put in a whole-car poly bushing kit ... they are a lot of work to install. They will add noise and stiffen everything, making the ride less comfortable. People will always tell you to go poly but you may find simply replacing the OEM rubber bushings offer enough improvement (they are a wear item) without affecting Noise Vibration Handling (NVH) as much so you still have a comfortable ride for the wife & kids to suffer in, and for a daily driver.

That is some really intelligent  and coherent advice. The aftermarket mods market is driven largely by hyperbole and looks. Now, don't get me wrong, there's good stuff among the chaff, but it amazes me sometimes that people will disregard the considerable engineering that goes into making an automobile and substitute hearsay and BS they read on web forums. Can you make it better in a specific application? Probably, but other things will change as a result.

And when a company bothers to actually quantify performance gains, it's often miniscule not applicable to cars driven on the street. When was the last time you drove your ride at wide open throttle for say, 10 minutes? Yet that's where the HP gains are most likely going to be had.

With electronic engine controls, bringing a given engine up to it's potential is much easier and that's different than it was 25+ years ago. While there would be other considerations like longevity and drivability, engineers just won't be leaving 30-40 HP on the table in many cases.

 

Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: srb on 18 Sep 2016, 08:23 pm
Now, don't get me wrong, there's good stuff among the chaff, but it amazes me sometimes that people will disregard the considerable engineering that goes into making an automobile and substitute hearsay and BS they read on web forums.

I'm not amazed because that kind of thinking isn't limited to the automotive world ..... you could easily replace "audio components" for "an automobile" in the above sentence.  ;)
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Peter J on 18 Sep 2016, 08:30 pm
I'm not amazed because that kind of thinking isn't limited to the automotive world ..... you could easily replace "audio components" for "an automobile" in the above sentence.  ;)

True dat! It occurred to me as I wrote it that's not a new phenomenon...just a different arena.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: rif on 18 Sep 2016, 10:51 pm
True dat! It occurred to me as I wrote it that's not a new phenomenon...just a different arena.

Probably like that for most hobbies - guys who overclock their computers or get massively powerful graphics cards, amatuer astronomers paying $$$ for parts, model train builders, quilters, knitters, backyard gardeners ... antything.  There will always people so deep into it an outsider would think they're a little crazy.

Now some of these "hacks" are legit, but as said above there are tradeoffs.





Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: DaveC113 on 19 Sep 2016, 03:27 am
Lots of mistakes here...

The aftermarket has a much easier job vs the mfgr because of emissions. Basically, modern cars are saddled with a lot of emissions control gear to avoid pollution before the car warms up. If you do just enough to pass emissions when the car is warm you can remove some huge, expensive and very restrictive cats and replace them with much less restrictive units. This can free up 20% or so more power (turbo cars) and increase efficiency without increasing boost pressures. There's lots more stuff like this in ecu programming as well. Also, gains tend to be at low to mid rpms and greatly improve driveability. Don't believe me? Check out Cobb's dyno charts. My STi gets a massive boost in power and turbo response down low but little up top.

Unlike audio this stuff is easily measured and quantifiable, anyone can look up dyno charts on the net these days.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: jupiterboy on 19 Sep 2016, 03:05 pm
Not every car has a hackable ECU.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Johnny2Bad on 19 Sep 2016, 04:36 pm
Do very many cars have strut tower shapes but not have actual coilovers?

I'm not sure what you mean here, but basically an automotive suspension engineer has two choices when designing a front end. He can use MacPherson Struts, or he can use conventional Shock Absorbers.

A "coilover" is a type of suspension absorber ... it does not describe whether you have a Strut or a Shock assembly. It is simply a coil of spring steel surrounding the gas or oil valved section of either device. It may be present or absent, depending on the design of the part.

The strut is more complex and less rigid, but offers more space between the wheels, especially useful for tranverse mounting of an engine / FWD transmission assembly in a monocoque chassis vehicle. The shock is less complex, more rigid, and takes up a bit more space between the wheels.

Very few non-racing cars use shock absorbers in the front end, but one notable exception is the Mazda Miata, a car renowned for handling prowess right off the showroom floor. Also shocks are the most common with a Body-On-Frame vehicle, like a domestic light truck (the Honda light truck is a monocoque vehicle and uses struts, therefore most truck owners view it with suspicion as it's not as strong an assembly in terms of resisting bending loads ) ... what Chrysler called "Unibody" when they introduced it to the North American made market. On the other hand, purpose-built racing cars will inevitably use shock absorbers at all four corners.

So, in summary you can have a Strut Tower Brace or a Shock Tower Brace, but the terminology is not interchangable (so you can't have a Shock Tower Brace on a BMW, and you can't have a Strut Tower Brace on a Miata). And, in general, for best handling you need a Strut Tower Brace, while you may not experience significant improvement by adding a Shock Tower Brace, as it already is a more rigid design to begin with.

Regardless, like many "racing" parts you might be offered, there are rather useless braces available in the marketplace, which are there for looks rather than offer any significant rigidity improvement. So it's up to the car owner to choose a truly rigid brace instead of just another flexible member.
Title: Re: Cold air intakes and front strut sway bar/brace
Post by: Johnny2Bad on 19 Sep 2016, 05:04 pm
And in addition, with regard to "Dyno Charts", it is easy to fudge the numbers on a Dynamometer, if the operator is so inclined, and there is competition amongst businesses offering Dyno services for your $100 run. Naturally the one that generates the highest numbers with the exact same vehicle will eventually own the local market, as it is in many cases a pissing contest.

Furthermore, no two Dynamometer Systems give identical values with the same vehicle, and there are a half dozen different manufacturers of the devices.

Finally no Dynamometer exactly simulates actual road conditions, so that what wins the Dyno Pissing Contest may not win the race (or offer the lowest fuel consumption, or tow the greater load, or whatever your criteria may be for modifying an engine from stock).

If you know and understand the conditions under which a test was made, if you understand what "areas under the curve" are important, then you can perhaps make comparisons with dyno data sheets. If you don't  ... well ...

And please note that no Dyno can measure horsepower. All Dynos measure only torque and generate a mathematical answer from the torque values to create a horsepower figure. Horsepower is the stuff of RPM (at 5252 RPM, torque = HP; at revolution speeds above 5252, HP increases with RPM x a given static torque value. That is why a Formula1 car can boast 1000 HP but only 200 ft/lbs of torque; peak power is obtained at 18~20,000 RPM).

Broadly speaking, a horesepower value is of limited use if you are assessing motor performance. Torque values are where the lessons are in any attempt to use measurements to seek higher performance. Going back to F1 as an example, the driver in a modern F1 car will choose between a set of Engine Computer-controlled configurations that all modify the torque curve. He will choose one torque curve under wet conditions, for example and switch to another for dry tracks.

The technology and application of these power curves is perhaps the most competitive and secret aspects of F1 engine development; far more important than the engines themselves (which are spec engines ... if you own a F1 team, you can buy the same physical motor that Mercedes or Ferrari or anyone else uses, which is mandated by the rules).

Similarly, the winner in a Moto GP (motorcycle) race almost always runs a bike that is lower in peak HP than the lower placing competitors. His torque curve, however, is better suited to the track actually run.

The above are examples of how the torque curve is the most important aspect of engine performance (and we are only scratching the surface here) provided you have a goal that involves actual performance versus a goal of "more" x the biggest possible number (horsepower). (You will also save money ... RPMs are expensive). And further, since no two Dyno's will offer the same values for a given engine or engine+chassis, it's the entire set of Dyno Sheets showing the changes in the torque curve when testing various motor configurations that is the critical information, not the one sheet with the biggest number.

I must apolagise for the above post, as it's off-topic, so I won't be addressing the issue further here. Take it or leave it.