Super 3 BPC

Louis O · « **on:** 30 Aug 2003, 02:30 pm »

Hi everyone,

Many Thanks to nathanm for the great avatar.

The new speakers are done. Sorry it took this long to post them. The speakers ended up as Bipoles and the name BPC is for bipole convertable. The convertable part is beacuse the speaker will have 2 sets of binding posts so that it will be very easy to convert from 4 ohm to 16 ohm from outside of the cabinets. The speakers will come with the jumpers to do this.

Setting them up was a bit different than the other speakers and they do need some room to breathe from the rear wall. I got the best sound with the speakers toed in. The have great bass and a very smooth mid-range presentation. The speakers truly dissapear and the soundstage is very wide and deep. I've tried all my amps with them in 4 and 16 ohm and they performed great. I hooked up the 2A3 in 4 ohm and the amp sounded great this way. Very powerful.

The pictures show one set of posts, but the production models will have two sets.

Thanks again,
Louis

I'll take a few more pictures as well.

wunderlast · « **Reply #1 on:** 30 Aug 2003, 03:26 pm »

Very interesting, Louis. Are you going to take them to any shows where interested people can hear them? VSAC? CES2004?

JLM · « **Reply #2 on:** 30 Aug 2003, 07:20 pm »

Louis:

Any idea of prices?

Would an "R" version be on the horizon?

With the bipole configuration do you still use Black Hole 5?

How does the sound compare to the TS3 and Super 3?

Any advantage of having the port on the front? (I'd prefer the grilless look without grill lug insets or seeing the port from the front, but I suppose I could just turn it around and have the binding posts showing.)

Thanks again for ANOTHER promising product.

jeff

Bill Baker · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Aug 2003, 01:41 am »

Hi Louis,
I do have question. How is the cabinet designed? Is each driver in it's own chamber? i.e., is there a ddevider withing the cabinet?

The reason I ask is that with seperate binding post, you could also choose between dipole and bipole configuration. A simple toggle switch would also allow these different configurations.

I'm interested and have my Triode/modified Jolida 102B waiting to drive them. I'll get in touch when I'm ready.

JLM · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Aug 2003, 12:24 pm »

OK, I'm ignorant. Please explain the difference between bipole and dipole speaker designs to me.

As I understand bipole, you have 1 front and 1 rear driver operating in phase, so that lower frequency sound waves are in phase as they merge around the cabinet. Or special drivers, like the Heil air transformer tweeter, that radiate the same signal out the front and the rear stimultaneously would also be considered a bipole. Is this right?

I know that one of the issues in designing an open baffle speaker is cancelation of front and back sound waves that are 180 degrees out of phase as they meet at the baffle's edge. In this case it's simple physics to size the baffle to work down to a desired frequency (the larger the baffle, the lower the frequency).

thanks

jeff

Bill Baker · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 Aug 2003, 02:35 pm »

The main difference in the two is phase of the drivers.

The reason I am intigued with the dipole setup is that I have been receiving inquiries on using these speakers in a home theater arrangement and a dipole speaker would be useful as rear channel speakers, especially useful in a non-digital system (pro-logic) which many people still use. I ask because this would require a cabinet with two separate enclosures, one for each driver, to work properly.

As far as open baffle designs, you usually want the front baffle about 2 1/2 times wider than the driver to cancel unwanted reflections. This is obviously not the case with Louis' designs. There are still many speaker manufacturers today using open baffle designs, mostly for midrange drivers.

I was just curious about the cabinet design of the new bipoles to see what type of configuration could be obtained. Versatility.

Louis O · « **Reply #6 on:** 31 Aug 2003, 04:45 pm »

Hi Wunderlast,

Yes, I will be bringing them to VSAC on Oct 3-5, The people who own Electroprint are showing speakers at CES. I will try to make it to CES this year as well.

Hi JLM,

I haven't figured out the prices yet, but no worries they will be very affordable. At first I will make these one way, but I will include the R compound in them. I still use the Black Hole 5, but in a different location.
They Sound most like a Super 3 as the design is based in it. Each driver has the same internal cabinet volume as the Super 3. About how the speaker looks, Since I build them in house I can configure them in any way. Also read below because Bill at Response Audio gave me a great idea and I have been thinking about it all night.
Your very welcome and it's my pleasure.

Hi Bill,

The cabinet is open with no divider and originally I wanted to divide the cabinet. Because the cabinet is open the drivers have to be in phase.

I made the speakers with 1 set of posts and thought, I would make 2 versions 4 and 16 ohms. When I thought of having the seperate posts to switch between 4 and 16 ohms I thought this idea is great so its very easy to switch from one to the other and add much more versatility. Like having 2 speakers. Now because of the 2 sets of posts and you reminding me about the divider, we can have Bipoles, dipoles and if for any reason someone wants to listen to just the front driver a Super 3. Plus the 4 and 16 ohm. So how many variations do we have.

1: Bipole 4 ohm
2: Bipole 16 ohm
3: Dipole 4 ohm
4: Dipole 16 ohm
5: Super 3/8 ohm

All in one speaker. I will have to make some changes to the cabinet. I need to add some volume for the divider, add another port to the rear and change the size to 2" from the 3", and make a terminal block for the posts. Not hard to do at all and I will get started today.

Hi JLM,

One of the important things about the design is it has to start off with a wide baffle so most cancellations will be avoided.

The bipole is when the front driver is in phase with the rear driver. They have a very wide soundstage and tend do dissapear in the room. In Bipole the sweet spot in front of the speakers is wider.

The Dipole is when the drivers are out of phase. Both versions will give a greater soundstage and much wider and deeper than monopoles. The dipoles will have a bit more focus and clarity due to the side cancellations or nulls, but the sweet spot is a bit narrower than the Bipole.

When they are finished I will give a more detailed report.

Thanks again,
Louis

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Sep 2003, 01:56 pm »

Quote

The reason I am intigued with the dipole setup is that I have been receiving inquiries on using these speakers in a home theater arrangement and a dipole speaker would be useful as rear channel speakers

Louis built a custom pair of bipole/dipoles for me for exactly this purpose. They are based on the standard 3s - narrow baffle version. They have the long dimension of the cabinet against the side wall, with an in-phase driver pointing to the rear and an out-of-phase driver pointing forward. They have double binding posts, so If I want I can try bipole, but dipole is working great. They blend well with my front TS-1s.

I think there is a market for this Louis. This system does both movies and music very well.

Paul L · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Sep 2003, 04:37 pm »

Louis,

Two more configuration.

8ohm dipole or 8 ohm bipolar for biamping.

wunderlast · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Sep 2003, 09:04 pm »

Just curious, why would you want to bi-amp two identical drivers??

Bill Baker · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Sep 2003, 09:42 pm »

Quote

Just curious, why would you want to bi-amp two identical drivers??

For the same reason you would bi-amp any speaker. With these speakers, it is a bit different. I would imagine this speaker would sound nice with four Wave 8 or Decware Zen mono amps or similar. With these speakers being so effecient, you would not need much more power than this to maintain excellent low level resolution at low volume levels.

Bi-amping is preference. There are some situations and combinations where it is justified. In others, you are wasting money on equipment.

Paul L · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 04:44 am »

Actually, you answer the question. For low power tube amps or poweramp that does not have mutiple taps, the 8rhm speakers is the preference load then rather then changing the poweramp to drive either 4 or 16ohm, it is much easier to buy anthoer pair like the Wave 8.

Louis O · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 03:00 pm »

Hi Bill,

Your right adding the divider and separating the cabinet adds to the versatility. You definitly need 2 chambers to do this. Dipole would be great for HT. The wide baffle does help and from what I learned with the Super 3 I wanted to go with the same type of design.

Hi Bwanagreg,

I learned a lot from the Dipole/Bipole speakers I made for you. It did get the ball rolling with this new speaker. In yours which are based on the TS3s I chambered the drivers to do this. Now the new speaker will be based on the same chambered drivers. I'm really happy they are working great for you and many thanks starting off the idea. I think your right and they would be great for both Music and HT.

Hi Paul L,

Thanks I didn't think of Biamp. This will work too. Before this speaker I never thought of Biamp as they all were 1 driver systems. Biamp will have an advantage and Bill explained it well. This does add even more to the nature of the design. I started the new cabinets and they will be posted very soon. I will also do my best to keep the price low.

Louis O · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 03:07 pm »

Hi Bill,

Great looking Avatar and is it a picture of the RAM 301. Must be new and with the tubes showing and gold top plate it looks great.

Talk to you soon,
Louis

Bill Baker · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 03:38 pm »

Hi L,
Actually, that is a stock (other than a few upgraded components) Jolida 301 Hybrid. Being a tube nut, I feel a product with tubes should show it's most important feature.....the tubes!
This mod can obviously be performed on the RAM unit also but it does require completely dissasembling the amp and relocation a few components such as the power supply.
It was a rainy Sunday with the family out of town and I had to do something.

Louis O · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 12:56 pm »

Hi Bill,

The amp looks great this way. I agree I would want the tubes to show as well and I would think there would be better ventilation for them too.

The new cabinets are done and just putting the finish on them. I should have the pictures up hopefully by Monday.

Thanks again,
Louis

wunderlast · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 04:03 pm »

Quote

I would imagine this speaker would sound nice with four Wave 8 or Decware Zen mono amps or similar. With these speakers being so effecient, you would not need much more power than this to maintain excellent low level resolution at low volume levels.

Actually, while I can see why you might want to biamp with the Wave8s, if you biamp with the Zen, you may not get the fidelity or performance as one amp would.

Why not? The Zen prefers a low impedance load - 4 ohms is good, 2 ohms is better. If you bi-amp, then you are feeding an 8 ohm load to two Zens, as opposed to feeding a 4-ohm load to one Zen with parallel wiring.

I'm not saying it won't work better bi-amped, I'm saying it may, or it may actually sound worse than a single amp. To answer this, someone would have to experiment.

I do have two Zens, but I don't have the Super dipole/bipole. Someone else will have to find out.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 04:24 pm »

Hi wunderlast,
You are absolutely correct. Anything in audio is a matter of experimentation. Thats what it's all about.

As I mentioned in an earlier post. It may work nicely with some setups and a waste of equipment and wiring in others.

For the most part, NO- you would not need to biamp but this would depend on the setup, the gear and how much fun you want to have. Many people who visit the circle are DIY'ers or have a few different amps lying around. I know one guy who has 6 Wave-8s just to play around with. If you have stuff lying around, it doesn't hurt to play. I do it every day.

Some people just want to build their system, hook it up and not worry about anything. Well, that's fine also but you usually don't see those people wondering through audio forums. When was the last time you did NOT touch or change anything in your system for at least 6 weeks?? I can't go 6 days.

I have a pair of Usher speakers here that I am planning on setting up to biamp, with tubes of course, to see if there is any justification for this in MY system. Just because I can.