AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Virtue Audio Owners => Topic started by: jb26 on 25 Dec 2011, 01:19 pm
-
Hi All,
I'm looking to tinker with my system, which has a M901 with Dodd buffer as it's heart & soul. Batteries are one thing I'm looking at (in another thread), but I also have questions about the tube supplied with the Dodd buffer.
At the moment I'm sporting the standard issue from-factory tube. Is anyone aware of a sure-fire, this-will-sound-better tube to upgrade to? I'm not interested in getting into a tube-rolling situation as my family life doesn't support extended critical/comparative listening (unfortunately...well actually no, my wife & son are way more awesome than my stereo. Well, more awesome at least).
But, if anyone can give me a definitive improvement - that matches improvement to bucks ideally - then I'd be interested in a recommendation.
Merry Christmas,
James
-
Merry Christmas James! :xmas: :xmas:
I have done extensive "time" (spelled $$$) rolling tubes in my M901 and always always come back to the Sylvania GB-5751 Gold pin.
It is my favorite tube for what I would call moderate to low level critical listening.
I also had used a couple of the Psvane AU and AX series tubes with had very nice qualities as well as a JAN 5751 garden variety.
However the one tube which has found a permanent spot in my system is the Sylvania Gold Brand 5751 .
Have a wonderful day of faith, family anf fun.
Tom
-
As mentioned, the Sylvania GB-5751 Gold pin.
I am running the Create Audio 12AX7, and have been VERY pleased.
Good luck!
Scott
-
Seems like 2 votes for the Sylvania, 1 for the Create Audio.
Anybody else?
When it comes time to switch out the existing tube, is it as simple as changing a light bulb? Any tricks I need to know?
-
Make that three for the Sylvania GB-5751 Gold pin. I tried a lot of them also.
-
Seems like 2 votes for the Sylvania, 1 for the Create Audio.
Anybody else?
When it comes time to switch out the existing tube, is it as simple as changing a light bulb? Any tricks I need to know?
Vote #4 for the Sylvania GB- 5751 Gold Pin, but w/ a caveat... If your Sensation knob generates the "leaf rustling sound" when turned & that irritates you, then the Psvane 12AU7 is a very nice "new" tube w/ "no leaf rustling" (& reasonably priced: (2) tubes thru Grant Fidelity is approx. $70).
As far as taking buffer tube out or putting new one in:
Gently wiggle tube as you are pulling up & out. Use a flashlight & align pins then gently wiggle in to place. I also like to use a small section of paper towel between oily fingers & tube.
Edit: if you haven't already, OzarkTom's Virtue Audio thread is a must for great tube rolling info: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82364.0
-
Merry Christmas James!
I have done extensive "time" (spelled $$$) rolling tubes in my M901 and always always come back to the Sylvania GB-5751 Gold pin.
It is my favorite tube for what I would call moderate to low level critical listening.
....
Tom
What might be your favorite tube for moderate to hi level critical listening then Tom? I suppose it's rather subjective, and we do have 4 votes for the Sylvania, but is there a tube out there that is 'just to die for'?
Regards
Dave
-
Vote #4 for the Sylvania GB- 5751 Gold Pin, but w/ a caveat... If your Sensation knob generates the "leaf rustling sound" when turned & that irritates you, then the Psvane 12AU7 is a very nice "new" tube w/ "no leaf rustling" (& reasonably priced: (2) tubes thru Grant Fidelity is approx. $70).
Gently wiggle tube as you are pulling up & out. Use a flashlight & align pins then gently wiggle in to place. I also like to use a small section of paper towel between oily fingers & tube.
Would that be the Psvane 12AU7-T as seen here: http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/products-page/psvane-vacuum-tubes/12au7-t-pair/ ?
Regards
Dave
-
:lol:
I am not sure after nearly 40+ years of high end audio that my old "hifi" ears are capable of high level critical listening. :icon_lol: I agree the Psvanes are very good, very close but may lack just a smidgeon of warmth. Tubes generally are somewhat system specific and differ from listening room to listening room with various equipment.
For example I thought the Sensation sounded a bit cleaner with the Psvanes tube when I used Brimars or Mullards in my tube amps in lieu of stock JJ.
To me, the Sensation used on its own as an integrated with the GB-5751 tube throws a satisfying full and mesmerizing sound.
All the best,
Tom
-
Would that be the Psvane 12AU7-T as seen here: http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/products-page/psvane-vacuum-tubes/12au7-t-pair/ ?
Yes. Grant Fidelity periodically has them on sale. Also, since they are sold only as pairs, folks who only use one often put the other up for sale.
-
Hi All,
I've been digging around the interweb about the Sylvania GB 5751, and there seem to be a couple of models. Can you clarify which of the below you mean (and do they all fit in the sensation?):
1. Sylvania blackplate TRIPLE MICA Gold Labelled, Gold Brand or military 5751, Premium 12AX7 (this doesn't seem to have gold pins) - (at audiotubes: http://tinyurl.com/ygu4ccx)
2. Sylvania greyplate TRIPLE MICA Gold Labelled, Gold Brand or military 5751 GOLD PIN, Premium 12AX7 - (at audiotubes: http://tinyurl.com/ygu4ccx) (at upscale audio: http://tinyurl.com/7lte97h)
Thanks in advance,
James
-
Hi James,
Thanks for the purchase of the Sylvania. I had a 901 briefly but changed my direction from an integrated to seperates. I bought the GB 5751 to use in that unit but never did because of "upgradius" :duh:, you will see when you get it the tube still has the test scores on a sticker on the tube. From what I remember talking to the guy I bought the tube off of he said some people feel that the black plates have a slightly better sound but not by much. The prices can be very high on these tubes and do not think spending over a $100 on a single tube is worth it if it only makes a little difference. The one you got should sound better than the stock tube for a reasonable price so Enjoy! the 901 is a great sounding unit.
JT
-
I have five tubes in my current arsenal: the stock JJ, a Create 12AX7, two vintage tubes (but not the Sylvania everyone recommends), and a Sovtek 12AX7 LPS.
I switch them around often. It seems crazy, but I keep finding myself going back to the Sovtek. It just has the right balance of everything in my setup.
Squeezebox Touch > Audio-gd DAC-19 > Sensation 901 w/buffer > Monitor Audio Silver RS6
-
Wow Robb,
That's almost my system exactly! Different speakers though. I'll have to seek out that tube.
-
Hi All,
I'm looking to tinker with my system, which has a M901 with Dodd buffer as it's heart & soul. Batteries are one thing I'm looking at (in another thread), but I also have questions about the tube supplied with the Dodd buffer.
At the moment I'm sporting the standard issue from-factory tube. Is anyone aware of a sure-fire, this-will-sound-better tube to upgrade to? I'm not interested in getting into a tube-rolling situation as my family life doesn't support extended critical/comparative listening (unfortunately...well actually no, my wife & son are way more awesome than my stereo. Well, more awesome at least).
But, if anyone can give me a definitive improvement - that matches improvement to bucks ideally - then I'd be interested in a recommendation.
Merry Christmas,
James
James
the batteries are a no brainer, you'll love them :)
as far as other possible upgrades go how about some Nirvana interconnects ? speaker cables ?
ClarityCap mod (SA, ESA, MR)
-
Jason, thanks for the hints. Batteries are definitely on the list. I'm running your Nirvana cables already. Upgrading caps sound like a good idea, but I live outside the US so shipping to upgrade makes it prohibitively expensive.
Might have to upgrade to the new Virtue DAC instead! Out of interest, will you be developing optical/toslink Nirvana cables too so we can use that input and keep the whole system Nirvana?
-
Might have to upgrade to the new Virtue DAC instead! Out of interest, will you be developing optical/toslink Nirvana cables too so we can use that input and keep the whole system Nirvana?
sorry but fiber optic cables aren't in the plan.
-
Hey jb26, how are you liking your GB 5751?
I just recently picked up a Sylvania GB 5751 triple mica black plate, but it doesn't have the gold pins. I don't think the black plates were ever made with gold pins, that's the grey plate GB 5751. So now I have tried three tubes in my 901 with Dodd Buffer and battery:
The stock JJ ECC-803S
Sylvania JHS 12AX7
and the GB Sylvania above.
I think my hopes were too high for the GB 5751. I'm also realizing just how many other factors go into finding the right tube for each system, what works for one won't for another.
I started with the JJ tube and loved it and used it for the first 3 months or so that I had the amp.
Then a couple of weeks ago I put in the JHS 12AX7 and I noticed less leaf rustle on the volume pot and a fuller, warmer, very engrossing bass. Donald Fagen's Morph the Cat was awesome! Not only was the bass hard hitting, deep and totally satisfying, it also had texture that I hadn't heard before, a growl that was really cool.
But the vocals weren't sounding as natural, they sounded more processed and I lost the feeling that they were in the room. The dynamics seemed to increase and the vocals seemed a little farther back in the soundstage.
A couple of nights ago I put in the GB 5751 and it was weird. I'm finding that it does some things better than the other tubes and some things worse.
Much more leaf rustling in the volume pot then either of the others.
Instruments are more natural sounding, particularly in the high end, cymbals are outstanding. They were more separated and identifiable.
There's a longer room decay, yet it's tighter or faster, so hard cut outs and attacks are more noticeable.
There's no edginess in the mid highs that I've been getting from the other tubes.
I was playing a cut from the West Side Story movie soundtrack which sounded better than I've ever heard it, and I heard a cello behind the vocals that I hadn't heard before.
In an Aimee Mann song there's a strange aural illusion for a few bars in the backing vocals, they seemed to come directly from the sides of the room, I mean the space directly to my right and left... very cool. But with the other two tubes the illusion seemed to happen only on the right side.
While the vocals sounded a little more natural than the JHS, they seemed to be a little veiled and rounded off. Diana Krall doesn't have the same growl in her voice that is so engrossing.
The low end is very...polite... i.e. not much there. On some cuts it seems really tight and on some others pretty messy. That seems weird...
The dynamics seem even a little wider, yet there seems to be dips or holes at certain frequencies.
The other tubes seemed to have a more consistent character than this one, this one is confusing me. I'll have to listen some more to fully understand what I'm hearing.
I think so far I'm leaning back towards the JJ tube mainly because it feels a little more evenly balanced and the vocals totally draw me in, they're more realistic and believable to my ears. However, all I can definitely say at this point... is that more research is needed :green:
I think I'll try to track down one of those Sovteks and I heard good things about the Raytheon.
-
Hi abernardi,
Thanks for the review of the different tubes. I'm still tracking down my update, the sale above fell through (just a mis-communication, no issue). I find the rustling changing with different tubes an odd one, it doesn't seem to make sense to me. It also doesn't worry me as I'm not frequently changing volumes while listening.
Looks like I've another tube to add to the contender list too.
James
-
One thing that certainly impresses me about Grant Fidelity, they sure no how to present an order. Whether it's cables or DACs or what have you, they come nicely packaged. Perhaps I'm easily impressed but it shows some class.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56647)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56648)
These pretty pieces are the Psvane 12AU7-T for my Dodd buffer in my M-901.
-
Time for an update if anyone is interested :?
I got my hands on a NOS Sovtek 12AX7 from a pretty cool cat who was recommended somewhere in the tube-o-phile circle, Sandy Levy. He also makes these big fat rubber rings to put over the tube to reduce microphonics.
These are just first impressions: my general impression is that it's a dry sound. Wide, but not as 3D as the others. There seems to be a leaness in the upper vocal range, particularly female. It does some interesting things. Dianna Krall doesn't sound good to me with this tube, it's as if she used an older microphone with a limited frequency range. But on "Morph the Cat" I can hear Donald Fagen better than ever. I understand so much more of the lyrics than I did before.
Percussion and attacks were more hard hitting, that was great, very fast. I heard more distortion in some of the instrument attacks I hadn't heard before (is that the tube or the recording?) and a synth riff on a Weather Report cut was really distorted, never heard that before.
Sing Sing Sing from the "Swing Kids" soundtrack album was spectacular, best I've heard it. The horns were so real. Yet a solo sax cut I have was just flat, unreal.
Overall I noticed a marked increase in separation and detail in everything. Orchestral sounded the best, most natural I've heard. Even the poorly recorded orchestral sounded compelling. I expected the opposite. There's an Ennio Moriccone cut from "Once Upon a Time in America" and the mix is so heavy handed. He throws solo instruments way out front and completely unnatural. But it was still very engaging this time. I don't know why that is.
I'm thinking these rubber rings may have something to do with the solidity and separation in the overall soundscape. So I'm keeping it in the system for now and see what it's like to live with. Oh, and James Taylor sounded great. And Aimee Mann, again an unnatural sounding presentation, sounding fantastic and her voice was great. So I don't know why Dianna Krall sounded so bad. That was the only really disappointing thing about this tube.
I also picked up that modded Elpac power supply that was being sold here on the trading post for the SB Touch. Things tightened up, cleaner, more authority.
-
Merry Christmas James! :xmas: :xmas:
I have done extensive "time" (spelled $$$) rolling tubes in my M901 and always always come back to the Sylvania GB-5751 Gold pin.
It is my favorite tube for what I would call moderate to low level critical listening.
I also had used a couple of the Psvane AU and AX series tubes with had very nice qualities as well as a JAN 5751 garden variety.
However the one tube which has found a permanent spot in my system is the Sylvania Gold Brand 5751 .
Have a wonderful day of faith, family anf fun.
Tom
I purchased a set of Psvane 12AU-7T and I get a wind sound independent of the volume or input controls. I tried both tubes with the same results. The stock tube is dead silent. I am disappointed.
-
Yes. Grant Fidelity periodically has them on sale. Also, since they are sold only as pairs, folks who only use one often put the other up for sale.
I am having problems with this tube and Grant Fidelity suggests it's not compatible.
Hi Dave,
From what I read on the Dodd buffer site ( http://doddaudio.com/BatteryPoweredTubeBufferPreamp.aspx ), your buffer uses battery power and it is designed for 6DJ8 (6V) tube. I don't know if you should have used 12AU7 (which is not substitute for 6DJ8 or 6H30). Please check with the buffer manufacturer for compatibility and if any circuit change is required.
It's almost next to impossible for both small signal tubes develop noise issue at the same time. So I think the chance is that you are having a equipment matching issue somewhere.
Unless the tubes are defective, we cannot take returns but we can provide replacement for another model if the other model will be used in the right substitute. Of course the returned tubes have to be NOT-damaged by improper use. Microphonic could be an issue for a tube, but what you described is definitely not micro phonic. And 12AU7 is not a direct replacement of 6DJ8 or 6H30 on your buffer.
I asked Jason about it since the kit may be a little different as built for the Sensation amp and he suggested the tube probably SHOULD work. Anyone have any ideas? I am unusually disappointed that this has worked out this way - Like I had bought a wine of celebrated vintage only to find it had gone bad!
I sent a note to Gary but haven't heard back.
Regards
Dave
-
Ok really?? Is it that I'm a complete idiot who's missing something so obvious and everyone is being very polite?
Or is this such a stumper?
-
I purchased a set of Psvane 12AU-7T and I get a wind sound independent of the volume or input controls. I tried both tubes with the same results. The stock tube is dead silent. I am disappointed.
I have two sets of Psvane 12AU-7T and a set of Psvane 12AX-7T and while their is a very slight hum if you place your ear directly against the tweeter there is no sound that can heard while listening. Not as black as the Sylvania Gold Pin but most definitely not audible from 3-6 feet away.
I am listening to them right now. Definitely in my top three or four favorite tubes behind the 5751- gold pins and 50 year old Mullards.
I use the 12AX7 in my Grant Fidelity tube CD as well with just awesome results.
FWIW since my cap upgrade to Clarity's I have been bypassing my buffer a lot.
Jason is making a believer of me.
Tom
-
@Trismos -The 12AU-7T Tube is on Gary's list of tubes that will work with buffer in the Sensation. I am running the Psvane 12AX-7T in my Sensation, that also has the Clarity caps. I am switching back between 101db efficient ZU AUDIO Soul Superflys and my Strada Minis with 88.5 db efficiency,the background is dead silent and the sound is fantastic. The Dodd Buffer and in line Buffer on Gary's site both use the 6dj8 tubes, I think that's where Ian got the idea that the tubes were not compatible.
Best of luck tracking down the problem.
Scott
-
I have two sets of Psvane 12AU-7T and a set of Psvane 12AX-7T and while their is a very slight hum if you place your ear directly against the tweeter there is no sound that can heard while listening. Not as black as the Sylvania Gold Pin but most definitely not audible from 3-6 feet away.
I am listening to them right now. Definitely in my top three or four favorite tubes behind the 5751- gold pins and 50 year old Mullards.
I use the 12AX7 in my Grant Fidelity tube CD as well with just awesome results.
FWIW since my cap upgrade to Clarity's I have been bypassing my buffer a lot.
Thanks Tom. I have read many of your posts and respect your opinion. I had the GF Dac-09 and was reasonably happy with it, a great product at that price point, but I got the upgrade bug and based on many reviews, including the 6-Moons review, I am now running the Centrance DACmini with excellent results. But it's not a tube DAC like the DAC-09 so the Dodd buffer in my M-901 really makes a nice combination with the Clarity MRs.
@Trismos -The 12AU-7T Tube is on Gary's list of tubes that will work with buffer in the Sensation. I am running the Psvane 12AX-7T in my Sensation, that also has the Clarity caps. I am switching back between 101db efficient ZU AUDIO Soul Superflys and my Strada Minis with 88.5 db efficiency,the background is dead silent and the sound is fantastic. The Dodd Buffer and in line Buffer on Gary's site both use the 6dj8 tubes, I think that's where Ian got the idea that the tubes were not compatible.
Thx Rx .. I'm in the middle with my GR N3s and their 90.5 db sensitivity. I would love to hear your Superfly's! Are either you or Tom running your Sensation on Batteries? Do you disconnect the charger for listening sessions? My system is really quite simple - music server to DAC to M-901 to N3s with reasonable quality cables all the way. I don't understand how my Psvane tubes didn't actually improve the sound to SOME degree as opposed to what actually is happening, given the posts on this thread.
Regards
Dave
-
Trismos yes I'm running the Dodd battery and I leave it pluged in as Seth has said you can't here it. I only had the low power supply that ships standard, the unit sounded nice with that. When the battery were placed in the system It was a Holly crap moment much more bass slam and fuller sound stage, I don't have much more detail on the difference than that because the standard power supply was never heard from again. In my system with the tube switched in more bass slam and fuller sound stage again, with a little warmer tone and a little added reveb making a hollow body Gibson sound awesome. Switched out Maybe a little more articulate in the upper mids and highs not as seductive to my ears and sound stage backs up a little and a significant reduction in slam.
-
From Ian at Grant Fidelity
Hi Dave,
Most of the posts are referring to the 12AX7, not very often a 12AU7 can be changed in the same circuit as the gain is only 30% of the 12AX7, and guess what, they are noisy when things aren't right. I'd be asking Todd what tubes they recommend in their gear, the 6H30DR supertube would be my first choice, although they are $200 each, we have a limited supply of those.
If you had asked us if a 12AU7 is a drop in replacement for a 6DJ8 we would have said no, ditto the 12AX7 :)
Cheers,
Ian
I still haven't heard from Gary in this regard but quite simply, these tubes are noisy in my system.
And back to the theme of the post then, nobody has mentioned the 6H30DR supertube..... Anyone?
-
Trismos my understanding is Garys buffer and his inline buffer advertised on his site are set up to for the 6 series of tubes, and I believe his buffer used in the sensation is designed to use 12 series. I could be wrong but that's my take on it, I would just pick up the phone and call Gary, I have called a couple of times and he always picked up
Best Scott
-
I have a Sensation M451 w/ Tube Buffer, Sonicaps & Platinum bypass cap., batteries, jumpers set to full range. Amp drives 91 db eff. GR Research N3's.
The Psvane 12AU-7T tube is very quiet w/ a nice black background. My Sylvania 5751 gold pin gives off more tube hiss than the 12AU-T7. But in both cases, I need to get my ear close to the tweeter to hear anything.
-
I have a Sensation M451 w/ Tube Buffer, Sonicaps & Platinum bypass cap., batteries, jumpers set to full range. Amp drives 91 db eff. GR Research N3's.
The Psvane 12AU-7T tube is very quiet w/ a nice black background. My Sylvania 5751 gold pin gives off more tube hiss than the 12AU-T7. But in both cases, I need to get my ear close to the tweeter to hear anything.
In other words your system is pretty much identical to mine, yet the tubes make a rather loud hush sound (sounds ironical I know) in my set up. Ian says he would not recommend the tube as a replacement, let alone an upgrade, of the 6DJ8 or 6H30 tube.
-
gary dodd made available the option of using 12a_7 tubes or 6dj8 tubes in the virtue audio tube buffer. find out which one you have. what stock tube did yours come with?
-
gary dodd made available the option of using 12a_7 tubes or 6dj8 tubes in the virtue audio tube buffer. find out which one you have. what stock tube did yours come with?
It occurred to me to simply look, but Jason, being the great guy he is, sent along a fist full of spare tubes to play with also. I looked at a few of them last nite while I was listening to music and they are 12s mostly. That doesn't exactly seal the deal, but I'd put my money on it. I'll look tonite though.
-
The stock tube that came with my Dodd buffer is a JJ ECC803S, and is noted on the Tubestore website as "A premium quality tube that replaces any 12AX7 / ECC83 type."
Actually, everything I read about this tube is positive. Maybe I should leave well enough alone and not buy into the expensive tube hype.
Holy &(*$ Check these out ... google Telefunken Diamond Bottom ECC803s
Regards
Dave
-
from what I've read the JJ ecc803s is a long plate version of the 12AX7/eec83. One web site compared 3 of the JJ 12AX7 tubes:
www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/foxweb.dll/extpage@d:/dfs/elevclients/cemirror/ELEVATOR.FXP?page=12AX7CHART
It claims the 12AX7/EEC83S is a standard well balanced tube
The EEC803S is a higher gain/higher noise version that emphasizes high end and
the 12AX7 Gold Pin which is high gain/low noise and seems to be best of both worlds.
I really like my JJ EEC803S and my system doesn't like bright sources, so I'm not so sure about this description. Though I'd like to get my hands on the gold pin and see how it sounds. Right now I'm still listening with the Sovtec and it's starting to sound quite good.
-
Yes I saw the JJ Gold pins and they're nicely priced so I ordered a pair.
Then I went looking for "Premium" ECC803S tubes and as I edited above, found these Telefunken Diamond Bottom ECC803s .... one for $1295.00
And there's this one: EAT Cool Valve ECC803S (12AX7) Ultra Premium Vacuum Tube - damn. I'm worse than my wife looking at shoes. I think I have to have this one. Damn. It looks like it might squeeze in there too.
Me:
Maybe I should leave well enough alone and not buy into the expensive tube hype.
:oops: Guess what? :duh:
Tris
-
Has anyone got a recommendation on where to buy a Sylvania GB 5751 tube?
Cheers,
James
-
I went ahead and ordered the Psvana 12au7 premium. While it's still breaking in I think the sounds is comparable to the JJ standard, probably a bit lusher - but I can confirm I'm experiencing the no-rustle when changing volume that others have experienced. I had realised how it was bugging me, but even if the sound were the same the $50 is worth it to get rid of the rustle.