TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers

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MJK

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TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« on: 13 Aug 2013, 12:55 am »
Jim and company,

Congrats on the very positive review of the Salk designed and manufactured Fried tower speakers in The Absolute Sound. Thank you also for the mention in the article, greatly appreciated.

Martin

SoCalWJS

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #1 on: 13 Aug 2013, 01:23 am »
I heard some Fried towers at THE Show Newport Beach - same ones?

I did not know Jim designed them - wasn't mentioned while I was there. Checked the online Absolute Sound and didn't see anything - is it only the print edition at this point?

fsimms

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #2 on: 13 Aug 2013, 02:16 am »
You can download the issue for $4.99.

TAS September issue

I am still thinking about the large expense.  :lol:

Bob

DMurphy

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Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #3 on: 13 Aug 2013, 02:18 am »
I heard some Fried towers at THE Show Newport Beach - same ones?

I did not know Jim designed them - wasn't mentioned while I was there. Checked the online Absolute Sound and didn't see anything - is it only the print edition at this point?

Martin was referencing an older TAS article.  It's not in the current edition.  The design in question uses a Hiquphon 0W2 dome tweeter and two Peerless Exclusive 6.5" drivers in an MTM configuration.  Paul Kittinger is responsible for the transmission line tuning, following Martin's mathematics.  I developed the series crossover.  It was originally intended to be sold through dealers, but they now require so much of the action (at least half of the retail price) that it's hard to market that way.  Was the speaker you heard an MTM with woofers that featured silver phase plugs?

DMurphy

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Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #4 on: 13 Aug 2013, 02:20 am »
Ooops.   Maybe it is in the current issue.  I saw it 2 or 3 months ago and had assumed it had already been published. 

SoCalWJS

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #5 on: 13 Aug 2013, 03:07 am »
Mea Culpa. RMAF 2012.




Paul K.

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #6 on: 13 Aug 2013, 02:59 pm »
I haven't received my September issue of TAS yet, but I now expect it to arrive soon and I've really been looking forward to reading Dick Olsher's review on the Fried Towers.  While the ML-TL I designed for it is not a tapered TL like Bud Fried would have used, the performance turned out quite good (no immodesty intended).  Hopefully we'll be able to incorporate a tapered TL in a future design for Fried speakers.
Paul 

dB Cooper

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #7 on: 13 Aug 2013, 04:09 pm »
Careful. It would be a shame if those Fried speakers got fried.

Just out of curiosity, I googled a tech article on series vs parallel crossovers. I was lost after about two paragraphs  :lol:

Paul K.

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #8 on: 15 Aug 2013, 11:07 pm »
My September issue of TAS finally arrived today and I read Dick Olsher's review.  Other than a small amount of nit-picking, he seemed to really like them, especially since he compared them to speakers costing twice as much and highly recommended them.  A point I particularly liked was Dick not saying they were "just" tall vented designs, able to appreciate their real differences and attributes as mass-loaded TLs (I hope you're reading this, Martin). Last, thanks very much, Jim, for mentioning my name.  I never thought back in the late-90s when I started tinkering with speaker building that there would come a time I would be noted as a contributor to a speaker design in a review by TAS.  I hope you sell a jillion of them.
Paul 

jsalk

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #9 on: 16 Aug 2013, 07:40 pm »
Jim and company,

Congrats on the very positive review of the Salk designed and manufactured Fried tower speakers in The Absolute Sound. Thank you also for the mention in the article, greatly appreciated.

Martin

You are very welcome.  It is well deserved.  I was a little nervous about this as Dick asked for cut-away drawings of the cabinet internals.  I explained, in detail, exactly what we were doing.  But I didn't know how he would react.  Thankfully, he took the time to do his homework (unlike some other reviewers in the past).  I think he did a particularly nice job of explaining what was involved.  And, of course, I am glad he liked the speakers.

- Jim

jsalk

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #10 on: 16 Aug 2013, 07:41 pm »
My September issue of TAS finally arrived today and I read Dick Olsher's review.  Other than a small amount of nit-picking, he seemed to really like them, especially since he compared them to speakers costing twice as much and highly recommended them.  A point I particularly liked was Dick not saying they were "just" tall vented designs, able to appreciate their real differences and attributes as mass-loaded TLs (I hope you're reading this, Martin). Last, thanks very much, Jim, for mentioning my name.  I never thought back in the late-90s when I started tinkering with speaker building that there would come a time I would be noted as a contributor to a speaker design in a review by TAS.  I hope you sell a jillion of them.
Paul 

Paul -

I am glad you got a mention.  Without your input and the great crossover work done by Dennis (which was a challenge since he normally doesn't work with series crossovers), I don't think the speakers would have turned out as well.  Great work!

- Jim

JLM

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Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #11 on: 15 Nov 2013, 11:52 pm »
Here's a link to the review:  http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/bud-fried-tower-loudspeaker/?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email-181

Glad to see the Fried tradition hasn't been forgotten, but having owned the Model B and M Fried speakers (and later Model Q5, still listening to Model A in my AV system) I do have some observations:

1. It was the Model H's natural sound that 'woke me up' to "real" stereo (audio) as do all Fried speakers versus all the high-end hi-fi (artificial sounding) stuff out there.  And nearly 40 years later I'm still 'spoiled' and instantly dismiss the vast majority of speakers.  Frankly except for the Soundscape speakers, Salk's fall into the later category IMO.  And frankly these look like a re-hash of the Song Towers, do they have an artificial hi-fi sound or a natural sound?

2. I've never seen a MTM Fried or 2nd order crossovers on a Fried, instead Bud vaunted the 'expanding sound source' (tweeter above midrange above woofer) and 1st order crossovers to promote imaging and phase coherence.  My Models B and M imaged like crazy (in all dimensions). 

3. My Model M bass units (that I DIY'd) were MLTL.  A later version of the Model B went from sealed to aperiodic design.  Both the B and M used 'acoustic foam' sheets in an on-edge fashion. Models A and Q5 were his 'line tunnel' design with foam across the entire port (honestly never understood what 'line tunnel' was supposed to be, maybe someone can use MLK's MathCad application to model it). 

4. 'Vintaging' is tricky.  Some try a full restoration (original parts/design).  Some try to make a sincere copy using modern materials.  Some try to extrapolate what the original designer would offer today.   But I'm afraid that this seems to fall into a 4th category, more of an attempt to use the Fried name to sell more Salk speakers (an easy trap to fall into when you believe in what you do), as I'm hard pressed to find the Fried in these speakers.

Paul K.

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #12 on: 16 Nov 2013, 12:05 am »
I can't begin to know how you hear and I'm not saying for a moment that your perceptions are incorrect or suspect, but extending those as a broad criticism to Jim's first Fried speaker are unwarranted and unfair.  I say this because I've had the opportunity to model several of Bud Fried's TL designs using MJK's worksheets and I can tell you frankly and honestly that the results indicated pretty poor performance.  I can't really fault Bud's attempts, though, because he did not have access to design programs we have today, and I suspect Bud was able to improve significantly what he started with by making modifications based on what he heard (but I have no doubt this included a lot of trial and error with often hit or miss results).  Hopefully Jim will have a future Fried design that includes a more Bud-like tapered TL that I can design that will satisfy your ears without negating any of the strong parts and quality provided by Salk speakers.
Paul

 

Here's a link to the review:  http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/bud-fried-tower-loudspeaker/?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email-181

Glad to see the Fried tradition hasn't been forgotten, but having owned the Model B and M Fried speakers (and later Model Q5, still listening to Model A in my AV system) I do have some observations:

1. It was the Model H's natural sound that 'woke me up' to "real" stereo (audio) as do all Fried speakers versus all the high-end hi-fi (artificial sounding) stuff out there.  And nearly 40 years later I'm still 'spoiled' and instantly dismiss the vast majority of speakers.  Frankly except for the Soundscape speakers, Salk's fall into the later category IMO.  And frankly these look like a re-hash of the Song Towers, do they have an artificial hi-fi sound or a natural sound?

2. I've never seen a MTM Fried, instead Bud vaunted the 'expanding sound source' (tweeter above midrange above woofer) to promote imaging and phase coherence.  My Models B and M imaged like crazy (in all dimensions). 

3. My Model M bass units (that I DIY'd) were MLTL.  A later version of the Model B went from sealed to aperiodic design.  Both the B and M used 'acoustic foam' sheets in an on-edge fashion. Models A and Q5 were his 'line tunnel' design with foam across the entire port (honestly never understood what 'line tunnel' was supposed to be, maybe someone can use MLK's MathCad application to model it). 

4. 'Vintaging' is tricky.  Some try a full restoration (original parts/design).  Some try to make a sincere copy using modern materials.  Some try to extrapolate what the original designer would offer today.   But I'm afraid that this seems to fall into a 4th category, more of an attempt to use the Fried name to sell more Salk speakers (an easy trap to fall into when you believe in what you do), as I'm hard pressed to find the Fried in these speakers.

JLM

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Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #13 on: 16 Nov 2013, 01:08 am »
You're right Paul, I've not heard this speaker.  (Actually I was criticizing the earlier Salk designs for having a typical artificial 'hi-fi' sound.)  Bud would be the first to tell anyone that TL design in his day involved mountains of sawdust.  Accordingly he was one of those 'can't leave it alone' guys (issuing updated cabinet tweaks and even driver replacements). 

But from the description it seems to be very much like another Salk speaker rather than a Fried.  Living within an hour drive away from Jim I very much hope the Fried inspiration will result in natural/musical sounding speakers.

I am glad Jim posted a couple of Bud's papers.  Hopefully he'll find and post his newsletters as well.  It's amazing how spot on many of his 'sacred concepts' still are (and yet designers are still trying to avoid following them).

DMurphy

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Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #14 on: 16 Nov 2013, 04:42 am »
You're right Paul, I've not heard this speaker.  (Actually I was criticizing the earlier Salk designs for having a typical artificial 'hi-fi' sound.)  Bud would be the first to tell anyone that TL design in his day involved mountains of sawdust.  Accordingly he was one of those 'can't leave it alone' guys (issuing updated cabinet tweaks and even driver replacements). 

But from the description it seems to be very much like another Salk speaker rather than a Fried.  Living within an hour drive away from Jim I very much hope the Fried inspiration will result in natural/musical sounding speakers.

I am glad Jim posted a couple of Bud's papers.  Hopefully he'll find and post his newsletters as well.  It's amazing how spot on many of his 'sacred concepts' still are (and yet designers are still trying to avoid following them).

I'm not sure how sure how flat frequency response and careful driver integration leads to artifitical hi fi sound.  I guess we hear different things when we attend concerts.  But one thing I'm sure about, Bud never produced a true first order acoustic slope crossover.   That requires extremely complex electrical filters and modeling software that Bud didn't have access to.  And even if he could have achieved a true "transient perfect" design, the evidence is mounting that there are no audible advantages, and considerable off-axis disadvantages to that approach.  I modeled my filters after Bud Fried's own notes, and I used the same tweeter that Bud used.   I would have used the same woofer if (1) it was still available, and (2) met current quality standards. 

Art_Chicago

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #15 on: 16 Nov 2013, 08:31 am »
I do not know what " artificial hi-fi sound " means, but I can compare  my Songtowers / AVA setup with a pro tenor sax that my son plays in the same room.  If a good source is used, either LP or digital, the ST reproduce the sax with great realism.
I do agree that SoundScapes take it at least one level up.

JLM

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Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #16 on: 16 Nov 2013, 11:33 am »
It's always been hard to describe what we hear, but Bud always used live, un-amplified music as the only valid standard to audition by.  As his articles point out, (unbelievably) many audio designers have never heard live, un-amplified music.  If it sounds like a glorified PA system from the next room, its a waste of my time and I walk away.  This applies to everything from the really cheap stuff to the mega-dollar gear.  I'll admit to being biased enough to dismiss all large dipoles, line arrays, and MTM designs out of hand as flawed concepts (as per Bud).  Granted some of the $$$$ pieces make really good artificial sound that deliver all kinds of audio goodies (high spls, big dynamics, detail, sparkling highs) that is entertaining for the short term and somewhat livable longterm.  But if it sounds like a xylophone, saxophone, kettle drum, violin, or human voice (with the right tone, texture, body, and a realistic soundstage) without exaggerations I'm hooked.  As an old Fried fanboy I admit to having preconceived notions.  As Bud wrote, I'd take every time a well designed but modest speaker (that does right what little it does) versus a big, expensive, mistake ridden monster that is trying to conquer the world.

In trying to follow Fried, have you Jim, Paul, or Dennis ever heard any of his speakers (I've read no such reference)?  This thread is littered with what Irving could never have done (ditzing his work while using his name) without really mentioning (even on the website) what exactly is inspiring this latest resurrection of his name.  There might just be more to the Fried sound than formulas or specifications can predict (true science never assumes, doesn't sit on laurels, but always questions).  I have an old friend in Ann Arbor who may still have his Model C's in working order (stand mounted truncated pyramid, 2-way MLTL) that were one of his later, greatest (IMO) achievements.  They would give a good taste, PM me for contact info if you're interested and I'll check with him.

DMurphy

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Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #17 on: 16 Nov 2013, 09:24 pm »
It's always been hard to describe what we hear, but Bud always used live, un-amplified music as the only valid standard to audition by.  As his articles point out, (unbelievably) many audio designers have never heard live, un-amplified music.  If it sounds like a glorified PA system from the next room, its a waste of my time and I walk away.  This applies to everything from the really cheap stuff to the mega-dollar gear.  I'll admit to being biased enough to dismiss all large dipoles, line arrays, and MTM designs out of hand as flawed concepts (as per Bud).  Granted some of the $$$$ pieces make really good artificial sound that deliver all kinds of audio goodies (high spls, big dynamics, detail, sparkling highs) that is entertaining for the short term and somewhat livable longterm.  But if it sounds like a xylophone, saxophone, kettle drum, violin, or human voice (with the right tone, texture, body, and a realistic soundstage) without exaggerations I'm hooked.  As an old Fried fanboy I admit to having preconceived notions.  As Bud wrote, I'd take every time a well designed but modest speaker (that does right what little it does) versus a big, expensive, mistake ridden monster that is trying to conquer the world.

In trying to follow Fried, have you Jim, Paul, or Dennis ever heard any of his speakers (I've read no such reference)?  This thread is littered with what Irving could never have done (ditzing his work while using his name) without really mentioning (even on the website) what exactly is inspiring this latest resurrection of his name.  There might just be more to the Fried sound than formulas or specifications can predict (true science never assumes, doesn't sit on laurels, but always questions).  I have an old friend in Ann Arbor who may still have his Model C's in working order (stand mounted truncated pyramid, 2-way MLTL) that were one of his later, greatest (IMO) achievements.  They would give a good taste, PM me for contact info if you're interested and I'll check with him.

I've worked with the Model C, and one other design that I'm not sure was completely true to Bud's original specs.  I think you're allowing narrow preconceptions to color your audio evaluations.  There's nothing inherently flawed with an MTM design--at least it's no more inherently flawed than all the other approaches that have' been taken.   I spend a good bit of my life playing in symphony orchestras and chamber groups,  so I do think I have an accurate reference point for determining whether a speaker sounds natural or artificial.   I would agree, however, that many electrical engineers in fact don't know what real unamplified music sounds like, and that there are many speakers out there that sound more like PA systems than reproducers of music.   

jd3

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #18 on: 16 Nov 2013, 10:15 pm »
JLM,
I used to have a pair of Fried Beta IV's that I regretted ever parting with, and I kept going through speaker after speaker trying to find the 'same' sound.  I finally found the same sound when I auditioned Jim's SongTowers when he first came out with them.   I bought the fourth or fifth pair he made.  My search was over to find the same sound as the Fried's I'd unfortunately parted with years earlier.  To my ears at least, I find Jim's transmission line speakers very close to the Fried's I'd owned (especially those with a soft dome tweeter).

John

Paul K.

Re: TAS Review of the Fried Tower Loudspeakers
« Reply #19 on: 16 Nov 2013, 11:42 pm »
JLM, no, I've never heard a Fried speaker, at least AFAIK, so I really can't make any claims about their sound, good or bad.  I can only repeat that for the couple of Fried TLs for which I had access to their TL configurations and physical line dimensions, they should have not sounded very good due to likely numerous large response dips and peaks based on the after-the-fact modeling of them I performed. 
Paul