AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Audio by Van Alstine => Topic started by: avahifi on 28 Aug 2018, 07:20 pm
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I drove a Tesla S3 sedan this morning.
It is pretty phenomenal!
Acceleration, neck snapping. 3.5 seconds zero to sixty.
Ride, handling, drivability, the first car I have driven that I like better than my Audi S6 Avant.
Interesting features.
Maintenance: Essentially none at all. Only thing under the hood is filler cap for windshield washers.
Bring it back every year or two for Tesla check out. Brake pads supposed to last 120,000 miles as regenerative electronic braking way extends brake life. No oil changes, spark plugs, mufflers, tune ups, belts or hoses to replace.
Darn near drives itself if desired with lane control, following distance, and even self parallel parking ability. I tested that these functions actually work as designed.
No dashboard instruments or gauges. Just a big centered computer screen that does all normal and many unexpected functions.
Available in rear wheel drive, all wheel drive (drive motors front and rear), and sport edition (faster yet). Tesla now has fast charging stations all over the USA except North Dakota. Right now avoid North Dakota.
Charge at home with standard 120V outlet (very slowly) 240V outlet (much faster) or high current dedicated charging station (very fast).
Really fun to drive, especially fast!
If only my like new Audi was worth more than the “winter junker” trade in price.
Gotta wait, won’t part with my Audi for $3000. :(
Frank
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Nice Frank, I am considering the Model 3. One of my colleagues picks his up this week. I want to see what thinks of it in the winters here before I commit.
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We just bought a new car two weeks ago , my 1997 Camry died and we need capacity for a growing family. We went with a Subaru outback. When my second car dies we will be buying electric for sure. The battery Tech is moving very fast, the battery range is getting very good. If I did not need the Capacity of a wagon I would have went Model 3 for sure . I am seeing a lot of them on the road here in Toronto now.
Disclosure , I am a Tesla Fan boy and share holder.
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Good luck if it breaks down, there parts distribution is a joke.
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I had a Leaf and now a BMW i3. Got the Leaf when they were basically giving them away and the BMW used for like 1/2 price.
Nothing beats an electric for acceleration. I beat a Jag SUV on the way home. I think I could still see it in the rearview, maybe, if I squinted :-)
And it's so quiet while doing it. I am starting to think of it as a silent assassin :-)
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Good luck if it breaks down, there parts distribution is a joke.
Are you speaking from experience or just perpetuating a rumor? Frank just told you it has almost no parts to wear out.
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watch out for all the FUD out there
FUD
noun
fear, uncertainty and doubt, usually evoked intentionally in order to put a competitor at a disadvantage.
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Me & my son Test Drove the Tesla 3 car Last Sunday, technologically it is head and Shoulders above what Detroit makes , but I wonder if Elon Musk is ripping us off when the only standard color option available is black ! if you want a red, white or any other color it is $ 2k extra for wheel covers another $ 1500. and than $ 5000 for auto pilot another 5K for autonomous driving in the future not available now so an average configuration is about $ 58000. plus. My Son already has a leaf and we do have a level 2 charger at home , however we have come to a conclusion , electric cars are good for city driving we never get more than 80 miles on full charge even though it is rated to give us 107. after 2 years we have to pay for public charging at the rate of nearly $ 2. per Kw /hr.
Although I did book one Tesla for deliver 3 to 4 months from September 2, hopefully it will give me the 310 miles Tesla claims it is supposed to give,
My son has decided to go back to an ICE car once his lease runs out next year.
One reason I ordered the car is because Tax credit of $ 7500 runs out at the end of this year and where we live their are rebates as high as $ 7K on electric cars
Asghar
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Are you speaking from experience or just perpetuating a rumor? Frank just told you it has almost no parts to wear out.
Parts wearing out and parts breaking are two totally different things.
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Local Tesla showroom says winter range in Minnesota will be cut by about 1/3.
Still over 200 miles in worst weather.
Frank
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Local Tesla showroom says winter range in Minnesota will be cut by about 1/3.
Still over 200 miles in worst weather.
Frank
I also worry about hot summers and run the AC, besides the heater and heated seats in 5-30 below weather here in MN. Especially with the radio or cd player at night with the lights on. I love my current car with its heated steering wheel, seats and mirrors.
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No one brought up the price of this marvel, or government "credits" or incentives for buying one. BTW, the use of highly corrosive salt in Minnesota will take its toll on any machine in Minnesota. I also understand the University of Minnesota did a study on electric cars and found that they actually pollute more then regular, gas powered machines. The reasons were that most of the power in the Minnesota area was generated by fossil fuels, and the construction of the batteries was an environmental nightmare.
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I always wonder what will happen in the future when a lager number of Electric vehicles are the primary source of Vehicle traffic.....
....and they have to evacuate Florida/The Gulf Coast due to a Hurricane. I picture all those cars trying to leave in bumper to bumper traffic and batteries run out causing more traffic problems, causing more car's batteries to run out, causing more traffic problems. etc etc etc.
Not to mention limited range to begin with.
:peek:
:icon_twisted:
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I test drove one Friday before last. I'm hooked. :thumb: Been driving the wife's Corolla since I totaled my Jetta TDI 8/17. :banghead: Waiting for the Tesla Solar Roof quote to come in before I drop the $2500 reservation on the M3. Looking to go Solar Roof with three Tesla Powerwalls. Wife doesn't want an electric bill!
-Ron
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3.5 seconds zero to sixty
:o :thumb:
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Having a Tesla S 100D and also a Porsche Macan GTS, both 2017, I can say the Tesla 3 performance is even more fun to drive. I have an important check list to go over when taking ownership of a Tesla which I can PM anyone interested. Even with that, I did not discover the AC was not working from the factory (bad solenoid) until in Eastern Oregon at 118 degrees. Drove it to Salt Lake to be fixed and Tesla Roadside service is a joke. They wanted to total out the vehicle. From what I read on the forums, the pressure to manufacture has affected assembly quality. But if your car is well put together, it is reliable! Distribution of parts can be challenging if you do not live near a service center. But they are in my estimation very reliable and also very safe vehicles.
I would not trust my life with the auto pilot stuff. The technology is has a way to go. Internal finishes and comfort, Porsche has it beat. Porsche is also coming out with an all electric vehicle that looks promising. The technology 10-20 years from now will be nothing like what we see today.
Regarding snow and ice, the torque of the electric motor is disadvantageous. I recommend both a summer set of tires for better traction and more fun to drive. Then a winter set, with studs if your state allows it, or nonstudded winters - like Nokian. That said, I prefer my Macan in the winter and my S is on quasi-permanent loan to my parents in Minnesota. They love it, and the difference in cost from Macan to the S is much less than difference in gasoline and internal combustion engine maintenance. I grew up in Minnesota and know the salted road situation. For this reason, I recommend the S over the 3 because of materials. Less likely to rust. Also with regular washing, the vehicle will last. I would recommend Tesla to anyone in the northern states without hesitation.
Historically, I drive cars until they die a natural or unnatural death. They are great cars and again for a sporty car that is fun to drive. The 3P - all wheel drive has different handling than the S and damn fun to drive.
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I test drove one Friday before last. I'm hooked. :thumb: Been driving the wife's Corolla since I totaled my Jetta TDI 8/17. :banghead: Waiting for the Tesla Solar Roof quote to come in before I drop the $2500 reservation on the M3. Looking to go Solar Roof with three Tesla Powerwalls. Wife doesn't want an electric bill!
-Ron
Ron,
We have Solar Panels on our roof , I had purchased Solar Panels with the "misconception that i would get clean power" for my High end two channel Listening , We have level 2 (240 Volt 30 amp EVSE ) charger Well I can tell you the bill goes up not down with PG&E in California , we charge my Sons Leaf after 11 PM but I notice that the Bill goes up not down its 3.5 hours to charge and I approximate it to be about $ 3 to $ 10 a night now that I have ordered the T-3 I will have to have my skilled neighbor to change my circuit breaker to 50 amps and inside unit to 40 amps it will take about 7/8 hours to give me a full charge. Plus now we find even in Northern California most CHAdeMO charging stations are full even in Malls
If you are trying to get Off Grid via Solar battery packs its not going to save you any money if you start calculating the ROI on your investment
By the way Solar panels do not supply electricity directly to your home ! it is sold to your electric company and than at the end of the year they do a "true up" and either you get a rebate back from the electric company or end up owing them money , even I have 7.1 KVA unit on my roof I still end up paying PG&E money each year , So far as the Carbon footprint actually some one mentioned earlier post it is more expensive ! Cheers :wink: :thumb:
Asghar
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Are you speaking from experience or just perpetuating a rumor? Frank just told you it has almost no parts to wear out.
personally, no but two acquaintances with Teslas will attest to my comment.
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Parts wearing out and parts breaking are two totally different things.
get in an accident (hopefully not) , you'll understand ........
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Frank,
What did you think of the fit and finish?
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Here in MN if you charge after 9pm, I believe it is 3 cents a kw/hr, which is down from 14 cents.
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We went with a Subaru outback. When my second car dies we will be buying electric for sure. The battery Tech is moving very fast, the battery range is getting very good.
I'm still happily driving my '77 Jeep Wagoneer, which I get thumbs up from strangers a couple times a week (that never happens to Prius drivers) but it is 40 years old. The 2019 Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid (plug-in) looks interesting for a 2nd car and probably 1/2 the price of the Tesla 3.
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The new Teslas I saw at the Tesla store (kinda like an Apple store but much bigger) all appeared just fine but I did not make a close inspection of any other than the one I drove.
Warranty is 4 years and 50K miles on all the routine stuff, 8 years, unlimited miles on the drive train and batteries. Some worry about battery replacement costs, but their efficiency and cost should go way down during this time.
Note the Tesla gets routine software upgrades improving functions and features as time goes on, directly thru your wifi network.
Frank
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My golfing buddy finally got his 3.
His $1K deposit on a $35K car turned into a $55K(less tax) car delivered on Maui.
I like the 3 better than the S I drove, but it's still not as comfortable as my Honda Accord, especially in the back seat.
He has solar, so maybe it will be a good investment.
For $55K, I'd rather have a new Honda or Toyota sedan and a truck.
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Asghar,
My roof will be a 13.2 kw system. Maryland has net metering and the three Powerwalls will indeed allow me to use solar generated electricity on a daily basis. Just switched power company with a 7.19 cents per kw/hr for the next 36 months.
Sounds like your system wasn't properly designed for your adjusted annual usage of electricity. 7.1 kw system seems a bit small for a typical household.
Ron
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Ron,
"7.19 cents per kw/h," you're a lucky man.
On my last bill the rate was 36 cents per kw/h.
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we charge my Sons Leaf after 11 PM but I notice that the Bill goes up not down its 3.5 hours to charge and I approximate it to be about $ 3 to $ 10 a night
What? I drive every day and don't put $70 a week into my old Jeep. Exactly how much coal does it take to charge a Leaf? It is sort of like my Dynabrade random orbit sander I use at work, light and powerful (like a Tesla) but the compressor that runs it has a 5 hp motor that runs constantly.
The average high temperature in Tucson was 103 degrees last month and my average daily cost on the electric bill was $3.79 (0.15/kWh). The winter bill is $1.40 per day. No solar, all on the grid.
How much would an electric or hybrid add to my bill?
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Iam appalled by the enthusiasm for these battery powered cars, for China to produce an automotive battery it is necessary to ship chemicals from the four corners of the world to them.
The process of producing automotive batteries is very toxic and extremely polluting the environment, as this environment is in China the friendly media press never mention it.
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My Solar rate is 11.3 cents for tier1 usage,
@ ron,
13. 2 KW is a pretty large system ! I don't know anyone in my neighbour hood that has such a large system my house is 2750 Sq feet and Solar city wanted to keep the system to 6.4 KVA so we choice SunRun(Sungevity) for 7.1 system with a power purchase agreement with option to buy in 5 years
@WGH
That is the point I am trying to make their is a lot of hype and finagling of numbers when it comes to solar power companies Yup :icon_twisted: charging the Leaf burns more coal and is less environmentally friendly than a ICE Vehicle, but than we live in California with all these incentives and rebates and Wind power in San Joaquin county and high taxes so might as well take advantage of Solar and Electric car .
The nice thing about T-3 is that it is lighter than model S and has a pretty good ride like a Lexus So at $ 58 K it will cost me less $ 7500 for Federal Tax Credit and $ 7k as rebates go figure what my final cost is going to be depreciated over an 8 year period of course one is stuck with high monthly payments for 72 months :duh:
Asghar
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Asghar - does SJ county has additional rebates for EVs?
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I could be interested in AVA DAC OTA software upgrades... 8)
Note the Tesla gets routine software upgrades improving functions and features as time goes on, directly thru your wifi network.
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Asghar - does SJ county has additional rebates for EVs?
Yes it does you can go on their website and check out all the rebates for Clean air Vehicle
https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng
Asghar
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Thanks for the link. Is it income related or simply applicable for everybody? Is it different than the CA state rebate ? Seems like T3 has rebate of $2500.
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Thanks for the link. Is it income related or simply applicable for everybody? Is it different than the CA state rebate ? Seems like T3 has rebate of $2500.
I don't know if it is income related but it is 2500 plus 4000 at least that is what my college going son got on his Leaf in 2016
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An African, has Invented a car that never needs charging. He will have a hard time getting this one on the market. :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viGjXV38qvY
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Iam appalled by the enthusiasm for these battery powered cars, for China to produce an automotive battery it is necessary to ship chemicals from the four corners of the world to them.
The process of producing automotive batteries is very toxic and extremely polluting the environment, as this environment is in China the friendly media press never mention it.
Not to mention tax breaks for the well-healed while the infrastructure crumbles and people go hungry. Elon smiles...
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No one brought up the price of this marvel, or government "credits" or incentives for buying one. BTW, the use of highly corrosive salt in Minnesota will take its toll on any machine in Minnesota. I also understand the University of Minnesota did a study on electric cars and found that they actually pollute more then regular, gas powered machines. The reasons were that most of the power in the Minnesota area was generated by fossil fuels, and the construction of the batteries was an environmental nightmare.
Links this data please.
Regardless power plants are more efficient then ICE.
I’m a EV lover. I acknowledge that battery production at this time is a disatvantage. Do you expect the technology to wait until a battery can be made pollution free and get 100 miles per charge? Serious question, how would you want new better technology rolled out?
The joy of driving an EV is very high. Do not discount how nice it is to never go to a gas station. Full every morning. So quite and smooth.
I own two Bolts and love it. You don’t have to own an EV to save the world. They are just better.
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Ron,
"7.19 cents per kw/h," you're a lucky man.
On my last bill the rate was 36 cents per kw/h.
Those seem crazy high and low.
I pay $0.19 delivered
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No one brought up the price of this marvel, or government "credits" or incentives for buying one. BTW, the use of highly corrosive salt in Minnesota will take its toll on any machine in Minnesota. I also understand the University of Minnesota did a study on electric cars and found that they actually pollute more then regular, gas powered machines. The reasons were that most of the power in the Minnesota area was generated by fossil fuels, and the construction of the batteries was an environmental nightmare.
Yup! How does it make sense to burn fossil fuel to produce electricity, then use that electricity to charge a battery to power a car rather than burn the fossil fuel in the car? Combined with the environmental catastrophe required to obtain the materials to manufacture the batteries and motors and this is a really bad idea. The only thing that makes sense is using power at night to charge the cars while there is a production surplus, but this depends on where you're located and there is only so much surplus anyways.
EVs are the car of the future... no doubt... but they are not a good solution for right now imo. We need to advance past fossil fuel for electricity generation and come up with better battery tech for this to really work out.
Meanwhile Tesla vehicles are a way for rich folks to feel better about their lifestyle... with the government chipping in to help them pay for their expensive luxury car... but the truth is they are deluding themselves. If you want to conserve resources buy something like a Honda Fit.
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Making sense of EV's requires a review of the total cradle to grave economic and environmental analysis that includes production/disposal of batteries, generation/distribution of electricity, and maintenance of the above technologies versus drilling/refining/distribution of liquid fossil fuels and maintenance of those technologies. Batteries have horrible impacts on the environment to produce/dispose of. Coal/oil is filthy to mine/drill, then must be shipped, requiring more oil. 2/3rds of electricity generated is lost in distribution due to resistance. EV's are expensive, have a short range, and take a long time to recharge. So neither option is a clear winner from an economic or environmental stand point.
The ideal solution is to stay at home and source locally. Use locally based solar to generate hydrogen (store at home in propane tanks for home/automotive use) once fuel cells have been made practical.
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An African, has Invented a car that never needs charging. He will have a hard time getting this one on the market. :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viGjXV38qvY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viGjXV38qvY)
Politics? In this case, African or not, the claims sound bogus. He really lost me when he said that generator creates 100x more energy than goes in it. :roll: Powering the batteries through radio frequencies? Give me a break.
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Links this data please.
Regardless power plants are more efficient then ICE.
I’m a EV lover. I acknowledge that battery production at this time is a disatvantage. Do you expect the technology to wait until a battery can be made pollution free and get 100 miles per charge? Serious question, how would you want new better technology rolled out?
The joy of driving an EV is very high. Do not discount how nice it is to never go to a gas station. Full every morning. So quite and smooth.
I own two Bolts and love it. You don’t have to own an EV to save the world. They are just better.
I agree guys. We can do way better than this half-assed sniping speculation.
US Energy Information Administration has what we need right here:
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/
Click on your state:
(in my case) https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/arizona/
.9lbs CO2 emissions/kWh
(for all the Minnesota guys) https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/minnesota/
1.1lbs CO2 emissions/kWh
And what is the electric efficiency of electric cars?
I found this site with a range of efficiencies of between .18-.25 kWh/mile
https://pushevs.com/2017/05/23/electric-car-range-efficiency-table-nedc/
(though it doesn't include Tesla, and I would assume Tesla would be on the less efficient range of electric cars due to its sporting nature, possibly MUCH less efficient than the best)
So, let's just say .25kWh/mi just to take the worst case scenario for the electric car - for the sake of argument - that equates to .225lb CO2 emissions/mile for an electric car in AZ, and .275lb CO2 emissions/mile for you Minnesota boys.
EPA also has us covered on CO2 emissions of ICE cars
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/greenhouse-gas-emissions-typical-passenger-vehicle
Assumes 22mpg avg fleet fuel economy for U.S.
404g CO2 emissions/mi, or .9lbs CO2 emissions/mi
Easy to adjust this ICE figure for your own individual fuel economy. If you get 45mpg with a Prius, it's easy:
45mpg Prius/22mpg US avg = 2.045 times more efficient than avg
(.9lbs CO2 emissions/mile for a 22mpg vehicle)/(Prius 2.045 more efficient than avg) = .44lbs CO2 emissions/mile for a Prius
Comparing the two - even the most efficient ICE vehicle out there, averaging 45-50mpg over their lifetime, are still quite a bit more carbon intensive to operate than an electric car on the less efficient end of the spectrum. Even for two relatively coal-intensive states.
This doesn't negate the concerns about environmental impacts from manufacturing, mining, etc. I am also quite concerned about these, and wonder how we'll ever manage the issues as this industry scales up.
Lastly, I'm surprised no one has brought up local air pollution. The one thing electric cars do exceptionally well is remove all local air pollution. Most cities are having increasing air quality problems, and electric cars push the emissions away from town, which is a benefit for the health and wellbeing of the city dwellers. That said, the people living near or downwind of the coal plants are not doing so well. But coal is dying a slow death due to the economics of natural gas taking over, anyway, which is a helluva lot cleaner from a direct air quality/health perspective than coal.
No easy choices, to be sure.
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By coincidence, today's 1A radio program (https://the1a.org/) has a discussion on the economics of coal fired power plants. Robert W. Godby, Director for Energy Economics & Public Policies Center and Associate Professor at the University of Wyoming said that the cheapest source of electricity generated by new power plants is wind, solar and natural gas is a toss up, then comes coal.
Tucson Electric Power (TEP) is quickly moving toward renewable sources. TEP stopped using coal in 2015 and recently demolished their coal barn replacing it with new reciprocating internal combustion engines, or RICE units, are designed to operate much like car engines, providing fast, flexible generation that will help compensate for intermittent output from wind and solar resources.
TEP also has a Real-time Solar and Wind Generation Dashboard that shows current output, right now it is at 13%, no wind today.
https://www.tep.com/solar-dashboard/ (https://www.tep.com/solar-dashboard/)
Check with your local electric utility to see if they have something similar.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183831)
Guilt free charging coming soon.
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I would feel very guilty charging my electric car at night - knowing full well that all that electricity is coming from coal/nat gas. Especially if I'd invested in solar on my roof. The lack of utility-scale storage is going to be a major impediment to electrifying transportation in a carbon-neutral way.
For all those who are in love with net metering, I'd suggest boning up on the "Duck Curve": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve
That said, just look at the math above. Even if you take out the solar argument and assume power from fossil fuels, electric vehicles still win on the pure efficiency front.
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I agree guys. We can do way better than this half-assed sniping speculation.
US Energy Information Administration has what we need right here:
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/
Click on your state:
(in my case) https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/arizona/
.9lbs CO2 emissions/kWh
(for all the Minnesota guys) https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/minnesota/
1.1lbs CO2 emissions/kWh
And what is the electric efficiency of electric cars?
I found this site with a range of efficiencies of between .18-.25 kWh/mile
https://pushevs.com/2017/05/23/electric-car-range-efficiency-table-nedc/
(though it doesn't include Tesla, and I would assume Tesla would be on the less efficient range of electric cars due to its sporting nature, possibly MUCH less efficient than the best)
So, let's just say .25kWh/mi just to take the worst case scenario for the electric car - for the sake of argument - that equates to .225lb CO2 emissions/mile for an electric car in AZ, and .275lb CO2 emissions/mile for you Minnesota boys.
EPA also has us covered on CO2 emissions of ICE cars
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/greenhouse-gas-emissions-typical-passenger-vehicle
Assumes 22mpg avg fleet fuel economy for U.S.
404g CO2 emissions/mi, or .9lbs CO2 emissions/mi
Easy to adjust this ICE figure for your own individual fuel economy. If you get 45mpg with a Prius, it's easy:
45mpg Prius/22mpg US avg = 2.045 times more efficient than avg
(.9lbs CO2 emissions/mile for a 22mpg vehicle)/(Prius 2.045 more efficient than avg) = .44lbs CO2 emissions/mile for a Prius
Comparing the two - even the most efficient ICE vehicle out there, averaging 45-50mpg over their lifetime, are still quite a bit more carbon intensive to operate than an electric car on the less efficient end of the spectrum. Even for two relatively coal-intensive states.
This doesn't negate the concerns about environmental impacts from manufacturing, mining, etc. I am also quite concerned about these, and wonder how we'll ever manage the issues as this industry scales up.
Lastly, I'm surprised no one has brought up local air pollution. The one thing electric cars do exceptionally well is remove all local air pollution. Most cities are having increasing air quality problems, and electric cars push the emissions away from town, which is a benefit for the health and wellbeing of the city dwellers. That said, the people living near or downwind of the coal plants are not doing so well. But coal is dying a slow death due to the economics of natural gas taking over, anyway, which is a helluva lot cleaner from a direct air quality/health perspective than coal.
No easy choices, to be sure.
This is a poor analysis imo...
I'm not going to pick it apart but the facts are generating electricity is only 1/3rd efficient or so, then charging the battery and using the energy stored in the battery reduces efficiency further, to the point it's less efficient vs burning gasoline in an engine.
Then if you factor in energy required to build and retire the car it gets MUCH worse. A simple car like a Honda Fit is much cheaper and takes much less energy to manufacture and decommission. This is called EROEI, or energy return on energy invested, and is the main factor that needs to be looked at when evaluating this kind of tech.
The factor in the ridiculous environmental and human catastrophe that is rare earth mining and the thought of Ecars seems a bit ridiculous. It's on the scale of buying several thousand smartphones.
As far as charging at night, you need to look into this further, because there is often a surplus at night. Large power plants can't start and stop on a dime so there is often surplus energy capacity at night. Now, if everyone starts charging Ecars at night this will change and be an issue but right now it's often the best way to charge your car.
I got an engineering degree focused on renewable energy, took classes on it, did my Sr project with NREL in Golden, CO and went to work for the world's largest wind turbine manufacturer. So I'm not exactly biased... in fact I'm biased towards Ecars working out and they will certainly be the future, but right now we need to be realistic about what's truly best for the planet and what will truly help with mitigating climate change.
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You can check out a Tesla 3 here:
https://www.tesla.com/model3
Frank
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EV are more fun and satisfying to drive. No gas stations, smooth strong acceleration, no local emissions and no oil changes. Much less maintenance.
I agree that the federal tax credit is going to those that do not need it.
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I assume that all of us who express concern over the dirty coal powered electricity being used by EVs have taken the step to install solar panels or some other means to produce clean energy for their own homes. Since we seem to agree that only about 1/3 of power generated at the power station actually reaches your house for use, we must realize that on site electric generation like I get from my solar panels give you some 98% in usable watts --- about 3 times as efficient as the power station. Consider also that politics and greed aside, the mining of precious and/or rare earth elements is greatly if not completely offset by the amount of coal mined for power generation.
Instead of throwing down nonsense you heard from corporate media be grateful that these early adopters are paving the way for your own inevitable, cheaper, and less complicated EV ownership in the future. Show some gratitude and respect. And heed JLM's advice ... reduce your commute. That by itself will help the planet and will amount to more cash in your pocket than the tax break everyone is lying about. Do yourself a favor.
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Well, I for one have reduced my commute, long ago, to zero!
My sound lab is the lower level of my split entry home and has been for the past 40 years. No drive to work, car never sits out baking in the sun, no traffic hassle, no wasted hours in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic.
This is one of the reasons my 2002 Audi S6 Avant is still in near new condition. Actually I don't care that it gets 15mpg city and 21 mpg highway, I don't put enough miles on it these days, maybe 6000 a year, that it makes much difference.
Anyway my interest in the Tesla 3 is mainly that it is just a joy to drive (even better than my 340HP Audi) and that is worth something to me.
Anyone interested in a very rare (only about 1200 ever imported to the USA) 2002 Audi S6 Avant sport wagon. No door dings, no rust, no accidents, never driven to work, rarely driven in snow or when road salt abounds, always maintained at Audi dealership. I see them going at $10,00 to $14,000 at rare car dealers, but I bet none have had the care mine has. Somebody make me a good offer please.
Frank
Frank
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I assume that all of us who express concern over the dirty coal powered electricity being used by EVs have taken the step to install solar panels or some other means to produce clean energy for their own homes. Since we seem to agree that only about 1/3 of power generated at the power station actually reaches your house for use, we must realize that on site electric generation like I get from my solar panels give you some 98% in usable watts --- about 3 times as efficient as the power station. Consider also that politics and greed aside, the mining of precious and/or rare earth elements is greatly if not completely offset by the amount of coal mined for power generation.
Instead of throwing down nonsense you heard from corporate media be grateful that these early adopters are paving the way for your own inevitable, cheaper, and less complicated EV ownership in the future. Show some gratitude and respect. And heed JLM's advice ... reduce your commute. That by itself will help the planet and will amount to more cash in your pocket than the tax break everyone is lying about. Do yourself a favor.
Mining materials for EVs is worse vs coal, not even in the same league actually. It's done by children in Africa and, well, google pics of rare earth mines in China, the scale is unbelievable.
Your solar panels took some energy and resources to manufacture, but I agree at this point it's a good idea and I will invest in solar when I can.
As far as early adapters, IDK, many seem to be rich folks buying luxury Tesla vehicles who don't need the government's money and are deluding themselves that their cars are environmentally friendly. Not sure about corporate media, I do my own thinking and have gone to school to study these subjects and have taken classes on evaluating renewable energy technology.
Despite the drawbacks I mention there are also many situations where EVs are better vs ICE, it depends on how the car is charged. People want to get emotional and decide one is always better than the other but it's not the case, it's more complicated than that... as are most things in life. A lot of it is simply because anything is better than pumping more carbon into the air, if it weren't for that EVs would seem like a bad idea because of expense and environmental impact, but this one pro outweighs all the cons because of climate change. It's like a lifelong smoker switching to heroin, it's not an improvement in the general sense, but it certainly might be for a smoker who has lung diseases.
If we can improve energy generation and storage technology it will only get better and it will be clear-cut. That time is in the future, hopefully not too far away.
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I also worry about hot summers and run the AC, besides the heater and heated seats in 5-30 below weather here in MN.
In both my electric cars, the A/C was a relatively light load. Today, in 95deg heat, running the A/C at Max only cost me like 5 miles of range over a 45mi commute.
Now, the heater, whooo boy! that drains the battery like there's no tomorrow. Heated seats only help a little with that.
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He really lost me when he said that generator creates 100x more energy than goes in it.
I have never seen such an efficient generator, it seems a collector of scalar energy like those of the genius Nicola Testa imo.
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In both my electric cars, the A/C was a relatively light load. Today, in 95deg heat, running the A/C at Max only cost me like 5 miles of range over a 45mi commute.
Now, the heater, whooo boy! that drains the battery like there's no tomorrow. Heated seats only help a little with that.
They've made the AC very efficient. The heater is brutal. In my Chevy Volt, cold weather caused a dramatic decrease in range, about half, and the engine came on to add heat.
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:D in a cold climate a little 45mpg car can't be beat. Buy it used with 20,000 and save a bundle. 450,000 trouble free miles if your luckey and treat it right. Can't be beat. Electric ain't the answer. A small gas car is simple and cheap. KISS .. but we love to fool ourselves and go goo-goo over new and latest. Bunch of bs. 650 coal burning power gens in the USA. We are not going to stop that. 270,000 new babies each and every day. All needing more power. Happy motoring,,,,, :D
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Bunch of bs. 650 coal burning power gens in the USA.
That number is way out of date:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/13/climate/coal-nuclear-bailout.html
"In 2010, the United States had 580 coal-fired power plants. They provided 45 percent of the nation’s electricity.
"By March 2018, the number of plants had fallen below 350 and coal’s market share had dropped to 30 percent, mostly because of competition from cheap natural gas, state efforts to boost renewables and stricter pollution rules.
"At least 40 more coal plants have announced they will close or reduce capacity by 2025, and others may soon follow."
Interactive map of the world's coal power plants:
https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants (https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants)
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This is a poor analysis imo...
I'm not going to pick it apart but the facts are generating electricity is only 1/3rd efficient or so, then charging the battery and using the energy stored in the battery reduces efficiency further, to the point it's less efficient vs burning gasoline in an engine.
Then if you factor in energy required to build and retire the car it gets MUCH worse. A simple car like a Honda Fit is much cheaper and takes much less energy to manufacture and decommission. This is called EROEI, or energy return on energy invested, and is the main factor that needs to be looked at when evaluating this kind of tech.
The factor in the ridiculous environmental and human catastrophe that is rare earth mining and the thought of Ecars seems a bit ridiculous. It's on the scale of buying several thousand smartphones.
As far as charging at night, you need to look into this further, because there is often a surplus at night. Large power plants can't start and stop on a dime so there is often surplus energy capacity at night. Now, if everyone starts charging Ecars at night this will change and be an issue but right now it's often the best way to charge your car.
I got an engineering degree focused on renewable energy, took classes on it, did my Sr project with NREL in Golden, CO and went to work for the world's largest wind turbine manufacturer. So I'm not exactly biased... in fact I'm biased towards Ecars working out and they will certainly be the future, but right now we need to be realistic about what's truly best for the planet and what will truly help with mitigating climate change.
Take another look, Dave. There's more in the EIA I cited than you're giving credit for. Those emissions for electricity I cited are the sum of all emissions from the power plants - so they do take inefficiencies in production into account. You do have a point that I didn't include the transmission/distribution losses in my analysis, but they're much less than what you and others are suggesting. Again, let's look at some data instead of just repeating armchair speculation.
Instructions for examining T&D (transmission and distribution) losses: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3
And we see that all the data is available in that very same page I cited earlier - the State Profiles in EIA.
For Arizona, there's a link for the full data tables in the lower portion of the state profile: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/arizona/
And here's the direct link to the Excel spreadsheet of all those tables: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/arizona/xls/az.xlsx (https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/arizona/xls/az.xlsx)
And if you follow the EIA instructions, go to that Excel spreadsheet, tab over to Table 10, and you'll see estimated losses of around 4million out of about 108million MWh for 2016. That's 3.75% in T&D losses by my calculation. NOT 67%, as you all are suggesting. Indeed, EIA estimates approx 5% of total electricity generation lost in T&D losses per year (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3).
So, transmission losses are important, but nowhere near a dominant factor in the overall energy performance of electric vehicles vs ICE.
I'm not debating any of the manufacturing or end of life arguments being made here, but I'd be interested in any citations or data to support claims being made there as well. I mean, come on guys - it took me about 15 minutes to look up all this stuff, and about 30 minutes to type each of these messages. A little bit of actual information goes a long way.
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270,000 new babies each and every day.
In 2017 there were 3,853,472 babies born in the United States (10,557 per day). Though 3.8 million-plus newborns might seem like a lot, the tally is actually a 30-year low and is down 2 percent from 2016.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/the-big-number38-million-babies-were-born-in-the-us-last-year-thats-a-drop/2018/05/25/ce96af5a-5f6f-11e8-a4a4-c070ef53f315_story.html?utm_term=.915f70baada8 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/the-big-number38-million-babies-were-born-in-the-us-last-year-thats-a-drop/2018/05/25/ce96af5a-5f6f-11e8-a4a4-c070ef53f315_story.html?utm_term=.915f70baada8)
The CDC website states there are 2,712,630 deaths or 7,432 deaths per day in the US.
UNICEF estimates that an average of 353,000 babies are born each day (2016) around the world but I thought we were talking about the US.
Remember there are 154,889 deaths in the world as daily average.
That took me about 30 seconds to research and type.
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Good grief guys, this is a thread about a test drive, for cripes sake. :duh:
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Good grief guys, this is a thread about a test drive, for cripes sake. :duh:
Not any more :)
Keeping threads on track is like herding cats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8)
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Good grief guys, this is a thread about a test drive, for cripes sake. :duh:
Conversation is a living thing. It expands and grows in proportion or languishes and dies depending on input and interaction. To me this is much more interesting than what somebody is "listening to right now". There are a lot of bright people gathered here and all of us can benefit from a discussion like this whether we realize as much right now or not.
There is only so much 30 to 50 year audio veterans can discuss that doesn't violate our strict discussion taboos (and their over enforcement and misapplication) or the tweak of the week. This energy topic will have much to do with our quality of life on earth and maybe even whether or not we continue to live here as humans. We are changing the living conditions around us inexorably and this may continue unchecked unless we can adapt as quickly as we destroy.
The subject of population growth lies at the center of all of this. When there were but a few million people in North America, we had no need to worry about pollution. We could all cook and heat with open fires without ruining our air quality. How long do you think we could live like that today with 350,000,000+ humans using wood as our only fuel? We have adapted as we've grown by developing more efficient ways of meeting our needs but there are limits imposed by physics as to just how efficient we can become. And there are limits within our physiology as to how much we can tolerate pollution and climate change. So we are forcing ourselves to adapt or perish. Most of the world knows this and is trying to impose restrictions and standards that slow the destruction. Too many in this country, however, are willing to ignore the problem claiming that it does not exist. This denial will be shown to have a short shelf life as the conditions become impossible to ignore. Will it be too late before we force that nonsense out of the way and move as a nation to correct our destructive ways? I hope so. Don't you. Profits are nice but you need to be alive to spend them.
And please recognize that this is a survival topic, not a political discussion. The mere fact that some politician chooses to exploit a topic does not make it political. This is about the great big listening room we all depend on for our means of survival. It is time to co-operate --- not compete.
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In the opposite of that social media chestnut, my IQ just went up by five points reading this thread. We have some really smart people as members. Please keep this excellent discussion going, it's quite amazing that differing opinions can be presented with no rancor and leave politics out of a politically charged topic. Well done gentlemen.
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Here is the article I read about electric cars: http://www.startribune.com/your-all-electric-car-may-not-be-so-green-says-new-study/285860511/
I'm more then happy driving my F150XLT, 2.7L, 10 speed automatic, ALUMINUM, super crew cab, 4 X 4 truck that gets about 22 mpg in town, sometimes 30 mpg highway. It also has the towing package, so I can pull people with their electric cars out of the ditch on bad snow days.
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2 things keep me from checking out a Tesla:
1 - the range and ability to charge en-route to somewhere, and the time it takes to recharge vs refill a gas tank
2 - all the stories about maintenance and getting parts and after-market support
They are getting there and if they can keep from going under they might have a product in 5 years or so that I would consider, or their competition.
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He really lost me when he said that generator creates 100x more energy than goes in it. :roll: Powering the batteries through radio frequencies? Give me a break.
I know, sounds impossible.
How about boiling water with frequencies?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFKxJyFiNvc
Killing cancer cells with frequencies?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w0_kazbb_U
Back in the 30's, Dr. Rife killed cancer cells with frequencies with his machines. He got shut down by the FDA.
https://behiveofhealing.com/forgotten-genius-royal-raymond-rife/
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How about boiling water with frequencies
That is a lot different than powering a car, if sound, radio, or microwave frequencies were that strong around us we would all be boiling.
Why doesn't he make a cell phone without a battery instead of a car? That would be a lot more useful and he could send you a sample to verify the technology.
I like the Maxwell Chikumbutso quote: "Anything that defies the laws of physics...they classify it as a perpetual motion device" and plan to use it at the first available opportunity.
Now I know why Elon Musk has been so erratic lately, he saw the car video and realized he wasted billions on his Tesla Gigafactory 1 battery factory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1)
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a politically charged topic.
I thought these things were charged with 'electrons' ...... :scratch:
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Why Tesla himself wanted to broadcast electricity, but his financial backer didn't know how to charge people for something that didn't have a meter on it. Perhaps he needed a "pledge" week...... :)
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For anyone interested, here is the owner's manual for the Testa 3. Lots and lots of reading! I study thoroughly before buying.
Now just need to figure out to come up with the $50,000 price tag.
https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model%203%20Owners%20Manual.pdf
Frank
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Now just need to figure out to come up with the $50,000 price tag.
Sell cables. :P
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Sell cables. :P
good one JT !
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I wonder what the trade in value of the Tesla will be in 5 or 6 years. Certainly the batteries will need replacing and that will be a discouraging factor. The cost of a vehicle is not only what its sell price is, but also what its trade in value is.
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Tesla model 3 batteries have an eight year unlimited mileage warranty.
Frank
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As for battery tech, it will get better - faster and more efficient. That's what they are constantly developing. This will be the future.
The gasoline auto industry simply does not care. I drove a 1992 Mercury Sable (a full size car with the 3600 V6 140 hp engine) back in the 90's from DC to Chicago at 70mph and got 35 miles to the gallon! So in over 25 years of development, where has the gas auto industry gotten better - efficiency-wise? Big, high powered vehicles that get 25-30 miles to the gallon on the highway. And the people who buy vehicles don't care either. Big, big, big, big. That's all. They want these kind of vehicles. Not aerodynamic, big front faces, wide tires (increasing rolling resistance) and lots of horsepower.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183884)
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:D mopar make a 700 hp JEEP for goodness sakes. Now that's crazy. The intake manifold has an AC line into it to cool the mix. Just nuts. :D
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:D mopar make a 700 hp JEEP for goodness sakes. Now that's crazy. The intake manifold has an AC line into it to cool the mix. Just nuts. :D
But that's kind of irrelevant. There will always be a few over-the-top vehicles. It's the 100's of millions (if not over a billion) of miles driven by everyone.
The US would save over a billion gallons of gasoline each year if everyone properly inflated their tires! :o
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And if you follow the EIA instructions, go to that Excel spreadsheet, tab over to Table 10, and you'll see estimated losses of around 4million out of about 108million MWh for 2016. That's 3.75% in T&D losses by my calculation. NOT 67%, as you all are suggesting. Indeed, EIA estimates approx 5% of total electricity generation lost in T&D losses per year (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3).
So, transmission losses are important, but nowhere near a dominant factor in the overall energy performance of electric vehicles vs ICE.
A little bit of actual information goes a long way.
Only if the information is understood and used in the proper context! :P
I never suggested transmission losses to be 67%. It's the entire process you need to look at starting from calculations of how much energy is contained in the fuel that is released when burnt at the power plant and compared to work the car actually does on the road.
To charge your car there is a long list of inefficiencies to calculate, first the turbine that burns the fuel and creates the electricity, it's far more efficient vs an ICE engine in a car but it's in the 40-60% range and 60% is a recent achievement afaik, steam might even be under 40%. This is the thermal efficiency. Then there's going to be far more minor losses (vs the loss in thermal eff) in the generator, transmission, charging the battery, etc.
Then, discharging the battery and running the motors in the car has some inefficiency in it too, though nowhere even close to how inefficient an ICE motor is.
An ICE car is around 30% for comparison, it can vary but this is reasonable average. This isn't hard to figure out, just take the energy in the gas burnt and compare it to the work done by the car.
A coal plant running 40% thermal efficiency is probably going to be worse vs the ICE car as all the other inefficiencies will add up to more than the ICE car in the end. A very efficient natural gas power plant might actually squeak out a small advantage but it's definitely not worth it when you consider the other issues. Charge with renewable sources of energy and after some years on the road the savings will eclipse the extra energy required to build and recycle the car and you'll have a net reduction in CO2 emissions, which is great. At this point it's probably worth it, but like the cigarettes to heroin example, we will be paying the price in other ways that aren't sustainable either.
If you compare an extremely efficient ICE car to electric power via fossil fuels there is no contest... a car like the Honda Fit cost very little to manufacture, it's easy to recycle, it gets around double the average fuel economy and is likely the best answer to the problem right now. But it'll never be trendy and wealthy folks will never drive a Fit. I get it, neither do I... I don't drive much though.
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On another topic, heating the passenger space... it's free with ICE as it's just waste heat but can reduce the efficiency of an EV drastically, this is rarely taken into account!
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But Dave if you're going to take the energy transmission into account, you have to also account for the energy required to build the drills, extract the oil, transport it to the refineries, the energy to convert it to gas and transport and distribute it to the gas stations.
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An African, has Invented a car that never needs charging. He will have a hard time getting this one on the market. :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viGjXV38qvY
This video convinces you?
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This video convinces you?
Here arfe updates if you need one.
https://truththeory.com/2018/04/29/this-man-one-ups-tesla-by-inventing-an-electric-car-that-never-needs-charging/
https://www.zambianobserver.com/update-donald-trump-usa-snatch-top-zimbabwean-inventor-maxwell-chikumbutso/
If Elon Musk had invented this car, I am sure he would not be able to sell it today. Look at what they did with Nikola Tesla and his free energy inventions.
Some or all of us here have probably heard of the 100 mpg carburetor. I have a friend that had a Yamaha mini-van that got 106 mpg. Yamaha had mistakenly sold this and tried many times to buy it back. Of course, he kept it until it wore out.
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But Dave if you're going to take the energy transmission into account, you have to also account for the energy required to build the drills, extract the oil, transport it to the refineries, the energy to convert it to gas and transport and distribute it to the gas stations.
Sounds like an industry that employs lots of people....good for the economy.
As for battery tech, it will get better - faster and more efficient. That's what they are constantly developing. This will be the future.
The gasoline auto industry simply does not care. I drove a 1992 Mercury Sable (a full size car with the 3600 V6 140 hp engine) back in the 90's from DC to Chicago at 70mph and got 35 miles to the gallon! So in over 25 years of development, where has the gas auto industry gotten better - efficiency-wise? Big, high powered vehicles that get 25-30 miles to the gallon on the highway. And the people who buy vehicles don't care either. Big, big, big, big. That's all. They want these kind of vehicles. Not aerodynamic, big front faces, wide tires (increasing rolling resistance) and lots of horsepower.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183884)
The electric car has been in development for over 100 years. You'd think they would have overcome the mileage to charge time problem by now, but they haven't. Frank would have to pull over 5 times on his way to RMAF. Probably not very practical.
The only vehicle that makes any sense (cost to performance wise) is a hybrid. More then likely 50+ miles to the gallon. However, a hybrid is not going to pull Frank out of the ditch.
I also find it interesting that no one is bitching about all the semis on the road and with everyone buying on line, the amount of these vehicles has increased, not to mention delivery trucks, and airplanes to get the product to its destination on time.
Electric cars aren't going to save the world. Same smoke stacks over those manufacturing plants, same craters in the ground where the ore was mined, same petroleum products used to make wire insulation, tires, carpet, interiors, light lenses.
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I don't have the number in front of me so I'll simply say SEVERAL major auto manufacturers have announced that they will stop making ICE engines within the next several years. Are they lying to boost sales? Or have they done the research to discover that the electric vehicle is inevitable given the current state of world affairs and climate emergencies and (probably) petroleum reserves. Certainly there will be stubborn or sentimental types who will try to hang on but they will be curators, not drivers.
Those of you who continue to doubt the inevitable end to the common use of internal combustion engines need to find better information sources.
And for god's sake stop harping on the nonsense about battery disposal. We neither create or destroy energy. All we do is concentrate it all in a few places (landfills, etc.) or convert it to another energy form. Fossil fuels amount to "battery" storage of the sun's energy, nothing more. The problem with them is that they cannot be replenished as quickly as we are using them. Solar energy, within any time frame we can comprehend is inexhaustible. This is what is meant by "sustainable".
I think it makes sense that battery recycling and battery life will both improve over time. But a number of car makers are working to refine hydrogen cell cars to the point of obsoleting the electric versions. Most of us at AC are too old to be looking that far ahead however.
To quote Talking Heads, "This thing is real...." Here are a few links that you might find convincing.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/gm-going-all-electric-will-ditch-gas-diesel-powered-cars-n806806
https://www.quora.com/How-long-is-it-till-gas-cars-are-obsolete
http://europe.autonews.com/article/20170803/ANE/170809854/german-automakers-will-stop-developing-combustion-engines-in-six
https://futurism.com/toyota-just-announced-a-deadline-for-the-phasing-out-of-gas-engines/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2017/07/05/volvo-says-it-will-stop-designing-combustion-engine-only-cars-by-2019/#706ddc961fa3
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/09/countries-are-announcing-plans-to-phase-out-petrol-and-diesel-cars-is-yours-on-the-list/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/we-mean-business/the-death-of-the-internal_b_13533290.html
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/9/13/16293258/ev-revolution
https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/reality-behind-britains-ban-internal-combustion-engine
https://qz.com/1341155/nine-countries-say-they-will-ban-internal-combustion-engines-none-have-a-law-to-do-so/
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IF I get the Tesla, it will need only one stop from Woodbury to Chicago for Axpona. I am not doing RMAF any more, not cost effective. But if I did, it would be three stops, not five, and need those for rest stops and meals anyway. No big deal. With the back seat folded down, the Tesla has nearly the room for our equipment as does my Audi Avant.
I have not purchased a car in 17 years. We build long term keeper equipment, not short term throwaway stuff. I am not doing much damage to the planet, and a Tesla will help me keep doing that.
Don’t be a FUD. 🙂
Frank
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But Dave if you're going to take the energy transmission into account, you have to also account for the energy required to build the drills, extract the oil, transport it to the refineries, the energy to convert it to gas and transport and distribute it to the gas stations.
That's fairly insignificant... only a few percent.
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IF I get the Tesla, it will need only one stop from Woodbury to Chicago for Axpona. I am not doing RMAF any more, not cost effective. But if I did, it would be three stops, not five, and need those for rest stops and meals anyway. No big deal. With the back seat folded down, the Tesla has nearly the room for our equipment as does my Audi Avant.
I have not purchased a car in 17 years. We build long term keeper equipment, not short term throwaway stuff. I am not doing much damage to the planet, and a Tesla will help me keep doing that.
Don’t be a FUD. 🙂
Frank
If you use a furnace, air conditioning, have lights, consume water, release waste water, CO2, CO, all kinds of other things, and your home also produces garbage, even recycle stuff rots and consumes oxygen, releases CO2, then you are doing damage.
The big fairy dust in the whole thing is that those that buy "earth friendly" stuff don't realize that the processes to make "earth friendly" stuff is as bad as the rest of modern day manufacturing. You still need to drive somewhere, so someone needs to build new roads, repair roads, salt roads in the winter, clear roads of snow. Unless you walk, you and your vehicle in direct or indirect ways, are "causing harm" to good old mother earth.
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If you use a furnace, air conditioning, have lights, consume water, release waste water, CO2, CO, all kinds of other things, and your home also produces garbage, even recycle stuff rots and consumes oxygen, releases CO2, then you are doing damage.
The big fairy dust in the whole thing is that those that buy "earth friendly" stuff don't realize that the processes to make "earth friendly" stuff is as bad as the rest of modern day manufacturing. You still need to drive somewhere, so someone needs to build new roads, repair roads, salt roads in the winter, clear roads of snow. Unless you walk, you and your vehicle in direct or indirect ways, are "causing harm" to good old mother earth.
100% true! Very few ever look at the total picture.
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Here arfe updates if you need one.
https://truththeory.com/2018/04/29/this-man-one-ups-tesla-by-inventing-an-electric-car-that-never-needs-charging/
https://www.zambianobserver.com/update-donald-trump-usa-snatch-top-zimbabwean-inventor-maxwell-chikumbutso/
If Elon Musk had invented this car, I am sure he would not be able to sell it today. Look at what they did with Nikola Tesla and his free energy inventions.
Some or all of us here have probably heard of the 100 mpg carburetor. I have a friend that had a Yamaha mini-van that got 106 mpg. Yamaha had mistakenly sold this and tried many times to buy it back. Of course, he kept it until it wore out.
There is a lot more information about this emerging tech and Chikumbutso's current progress here:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-invent-electric-car-no-charging/ (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-invent-electric-car-no-charging/)
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Elon Musk and Tesla are the darling child of the media - can't go wrong no matter what they do or say, reality may prove him right or wrong.
I do like the electric car evolution, but the endless fawning over Musk and Tesla is getting old.
:popcorn:
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There is a lot more information about this emerging tech and Chikumbutso's current progress here:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-invent-electric-car-no-charging/ (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-invent-electric-car-no-charging/)
:thumb:
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There is a lot more information about this emerging tech and Chikumbutso's current progress here:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-invent-electric-car-no-charging/ (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-invent-electric-car-no-charging/)
Ah yes good ole lying Snopes. I also have some ocean front property to sell you here in the Ozarks.
https://www.wnd.com/2017/07/hookers-lies-and-fraud-snopes-in-danger-of-closing-doors/
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Buying a new vehicle as I did this spring should not be based on popular notions or save the earth promotions. It should be affordable, and fit the needs of the consumer. Waiting around for a half hour to charge up (or what ever it takes) is not something that I want to do when I'm on a trip, especially when I'm on the way home. I like to make "Indy" type pit stops, fill up, pea, pay and get going again. Recharging is not in the picture.
I bought my F150 based on needs and the comfort of the ride. My driving habits are limited to smaller trips so the truck and the wife's Fusion Titanium barely get a few thousand miles on per year, so the need for extreme gas mileage is not an issue.
The real problem with the world today is the approximately 150,000 new people on it every day. In a week, that's about a million more people to feed, cloth, find shelter for. If you want to save the world, this problem has to be addressed. It's not a political issue, it's a logistics issue.
My advice to Frank is to find something that fits his age and life style. You deserve a comfortable ride (you earned it) and if you think the Tesla is the answer, so be it. Maybe you should rent a gas gussler when you go to Michigan.......
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Nobody buys EVs for “trips”. If you drive over 150miles/day often you should look elsewhere.
I rent a car the two or three times a year I travel out of range. I have only charged not at home once in four years of EV ownership.
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Nobody buys EVs for “trips”. If you drive over 150miles/day often you should look elsewhere.
I rent a car the two or three times a year I travel out of range. I have only charged not at home once in four years of EV ownership.
Well, Frank was going to take his on a trip (to Chicago) and I suggested a rental.
What an expense. When I fill up my F150 I have a range of about 825 miles before empty.
Might as well get a golf cart and drive that around.
BTW, it was brought up that the batteries last and last. Well, every time you recharge, the batteries loose capacity. When you drive the car at 80 MPH, the recharge times become closer (or more often), otherwise, someone has invented the perpetual motion machine.
Electric car fine for short trips, charge at home, Pay huge up front cost, worthless for going on any trips............What a concept.
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Golf carts are a great idea. The city of Lyons legalized golf carts in town limits and lots of locals drive them around. Speed limits are not over 25 mph in town.
An even better idea is ebikes, these are becoming very popular and will hopefully encourage more people to commute by bike.
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They can drive in our town, but not on state or federal highways (or the shoulders).
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As I see it @avahifi said he had a blast driving the Tesla (as do I with my electric).
Then all these people come out to say how awful electric cars are for the environment. Sure, whatever. At least I won't die if I leave it turned on in the garage and fall asleep. There's a really funny "review" of ICE cars that I can't find right now that sums it up nicely.
@avahifi, are you going to test it again?
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I likely will order one early next year for delivery in the spring.
Expecting a bit lower prices and longer range by then.
The real reason is that I have never driven a car so much fun and safe to drive.
I will probably get the AWD performance model. Zero to 60 in 3.5 seconds. Try that with your truck, Wayne. 😊
Frank
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There are many 'modified' Ford diesel trucks that are sub 3 seconds. Google them. Neat to see. The bloom of black smoke is impressive.
My partner ordered her 3 all wheel drive and had it in less than a week from her order.
I would also agree with your AWD-Performance choice. If you order now, you can have unlimited charging too. Performance is at least 2 months out and you still receive a substantial tax credit for taking ownership before 2019. That will cover most, or depending on the state which you live, the cost of the performance package.
I did take my car loan through Tesla, which is subsidized, @ 0.75% interest was for me quite ideal. Alliant Credit Union out of Chicago is another Loan that sometimes bests Tesla. You can live anywhere to qualify.
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Ah yes good ole lying Snopes. I also have some ocean front property to sell you here in the Ozarks.
https://www.wnd.com/2017/07/hookers-lies-and-fraud-snopes-in-danger-of-closing-doors/
I think that is called a "pivot", where you comment on something not even remotely on the topic. Saith Technologies and Chikumbutso was not mentioned in the article you linked.
Besides, that is old news. Wired magazine had a much better written article a year ago in their Sept. 2017 issue, you can read it online too:
https://www.wired.com/story/snopes-and-the-search-for-facts-in-a-post-fact-world/ (https://www.wired.com/story/snopes-and-the-search-for-facts-in-a-post-fact-world/)
Even though the Wired article is way off [this] topic, it is a good read if you like long form writing, Wired articles are always well written and fun to read.
Whether you believe in Snopes or not, you have to admit that there have been no more demo's of the magic car since the 1 (one) day demo on July 20, 2015. Technically the car and the underlying technology is vaporware at this point.
BTW - Selling any lake front property? Season 2 of Ozark (https://www.netflix.com/title/80117552) just started on Netflix and I would like to get in the mood. Season 1 was great.
Good debate guys!
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They can drive in our town, but not on state or federal highways (or the shoulders).
https://www.dirtlegal.com/
:green:
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I found security footage of Frank's Tesla test drive :o :
Security footage of airborne Tesla
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=2xFji9-xgMw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=2xFji9-xgMw)
With a little calculation (below), Wired figured out how fast it was going - 44.7 m/s or 100 mph
Here's How Fast That Jumping Tesla Was Traveling
https://www.wired.com/story/heres-how-fast-that-jumping-tesla-was-traveling/ (https://www.wired.com/story/heres-how-fast-that-jumping-tesla-was-traveling/)
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Nobody buys EVs for “trips”. If you drive over 150miles/day often you should look elsewhere.
I rent a car the two or three times a year I travel out of range. I have only charged not at home once in four years of EV ownership.
When I had my Volt, I tried to charge a few times when not at home. The only time I actually got the car hooked up...I had it configured to only charge at home. After I realized it was set that way, I changed the settings, but I never could charge anywhere else. Either cars were already using the charging station or the correct connector was not available. Tesla has more charges now, though. It also charges much faster (mine could take 4+ hours).
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The best part of the Volt was not having to get gas for about 9 months out the year, or only getting it once. You don't realize how much getting gas sucks until you do it every week (as I do now, since my Volt was totaled and I drive a gas-only car now). In the summer, I could make it to and from work twice without electricity. The car would run the engine at times even in the summer, just to run it.
Also, the lack of maintenance is great too. My VW Jetta Wagon needed regular maintenance, some of which was insanely expensive (the flush of the gear box was some ridiculous price like $600). The Volt rarely went into the shop for regular maintenance, maybe once every two years (though I had the car less than two years, and I never took it for maintenance).
Everyone thinks the tax incentives for these cars are great, but the Federal tax incentive is paid by taxes. What this means is if the car costs 70,000 (as Teslas can cost), or 40,000 (as a Chevy Volt can cost), you borrow that amount. At some point, you'll get the $7,500 off your taxes, but if you have a car loan, that amount does not lower the car loan.
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I have hated going to the gas station for many years now. First I got a TDI that got 600mi to a tank and reduced my gas trips to once every 2w. Even that was too often for me :-) So annoying that the price of gas is unstable.
I pounced on the electric for that reason and others. But now I often have to fill up the wife's car ;-(
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:D silly thread. Lot of peeps here with $$ I guess. Buy a used car that gets 45 mpg. A small dependable throw away after 450,000 trouble free happy motoring clicks. Your insane if you buy a 70,000 dollar car. Your nuts. We have reached the age of no-growth and the only thing holding things together id debt now.
Stop fooling yourself and save ,,,, tesla can go duck themselves ,,,, 3000 dollars for a new door handle that needs to be programmed by them. Are you serious ,,,, come on ,, everybody get real. There's a storm coming and a stupid car is the least of your worries,,,, happy motoring,,,,,ha. :D
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Here's an interesting graph showing energy densities.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183919)
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I don't have the number in front of me so I'll simply say SEVERAL major auto manufacturers have announced that they will stop making ICE engines within the next several years. Are they lying to boost sales? Or have they done the research to discover that the electric vehicle is inevitable given the current state of world affairs and climate emergencies and (probably) petroleum reserves. Certainly there will be stubborn or sentimental types who will try to hang on but they will be curators, not drivers.
Those of you who continue to doubt the inevitable end to the common use of internal combustion engines need to find better information sources.
And for god's sake stop harping on the nonsense about battery disposal. We neither create or destroy energy. All we do is concentrate it all in a few places (landfills, etc.) or convert it to another energy form. Fossil fuels amount to "battery" storage of the sun's energy, nothing more. The problem with them is that they cannot be replenished as quickly as we are using them. Solar energy, within any time frame we can comprehend is inexhaustible. This is what is meant by "sustainable".
I think it makes sense that battery recycling and battery life will both improve over time. But a number of car makers are working to refine hydrogen cell cars to the point of obsoleting the electric versions. Most of us at AC are too old to be looking that far ahead however.
To quote Talking Heads, "This thing is real...." Here are a few links that you might find convincing.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/gm-going-all-electric-will-ditch-gas-diesel-powered-cars-n806806
https://www.quora.com/How-long-is-it-till-gas-cars-are-obsolete
http://europe.autonews.com/article/20170803/ANE/170809854/german-automakers-will-stop-developing-combustion-engines-in-six
https://futurism.com/toyota-just-announced-a-deadline-for-the-phasing-out-of-gas-engines/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2017/07/05/volvo-says-it-will-stop-designing-combustion-engine-only-cars-by-2019/#706ddc961fa3
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/09/countries-are-announcing-plans-to-phase-out-petrol-and-diesel-cars-is-yours-on-the-list/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/we-mean-business/the-death-of-the-internal_b_13533290.html
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/9/13/16293258/ev-revolution
https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/reality-behind-britains-ban-internal-combustion-engine
https://qz.com/1341155/nine-countries-say-they-will-ban-internal-combustion-engines-none-have-a-law-to-do-so/
Do you even read the links that you post, or do you just poach headlines?
Several of those links state that ICEs won't be completely replaced or phased out until 2040 to 2050. That's not "SEVERAL years," that's several decades.
Any link mentioning cessation of ICE development, doesn't mean the companies will stop making ICE cars, just that research and development on ICE won't continue in favor of electric engines.
I don't think anyone on this thread has stated that electric cars aren't the future, its just not the near future.
There are still too many logistical issues.
For instance, I live in a townhouse. I would certainly buy a Tesla, or something like it, but I have no garage or driveway to charge my vehicle. That makes an electric car useless to me, and millions of other people across the globe who live similarly to how I do. You need the appropriate accommodations in your home to realistically own an electric car.
Some condo, town home, or apartment associations will make concessions for electric vehicle owners, but not all. These concessions are also usually limited to only a handful of people. What do we do when half the residents are driving them and need accomondations? Who foots the bill for construction of charging stations, and the dramatic increase in the electric bill?
Personally I think, until we see a major leap forward in battery technology, where both mileage is increased, and charging time is alleviated by a significant factor, mass adoption of electric vehicles isn't possible. The car battery will need to be charged to full in minutes, not hours.
If you have a nice house with solar panels, a garage to charge your vehicle, and six figures for a Tesla, good on you for doing your part. For the VAST majority of individuals across the globe, EVs are a non-starter currently given their demands and limitations.
Until THAT hurdle is surmounted, the rest is just chest thumping.
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That is the correct answer. For now it's all about ego.
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For those interested, here is an interesting route planner for EV owners.
Abetterrouteplanner.com. (A better route planner)
Plug in your car, speed you want to maintain, and destination and it figures everything else including recommended charging stops and time and even nearby snack stops.
For me it shows about 5.5 hours to Axpona hotel at Chicago with one 30 minute recharging along the way, using less than $6.00 worth of electricity. Since I always make a meal and gas break along the way anyway, this is no different than driving my Audi, but I save $50 worth of gas each way. I plugged in 75mph speed, not creeping along.
I plan to own one by next April. The
Frank
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Good choice, Frank. I test drove my colleague’s model 3 and was very pleasantly surprised at how it handled itself. Unreal acceleration! :icon_twisted:
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That is the correct answer. For now it's all about ego.
When would it not be about ego and how do we get there?
Seems like anything but an F150 is an insult. One size fits all.
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If it can't "roll coal" why would you buy it? lol
The 3 is a great car and a lot of people own them around here. It's not for everyone (yet) but for those that can afford it and deal with the idiosyncrasies, it's an option. There is a waiting list just for a test drive. Performance is killer....
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When would it not be about ego and how do we get there?
Seems like anything but an F150 is an insult. One size fits all.
Ha. Yeah, no ego in an F150, right? None at all... Purely utilitarian. All of that "pulling cars out of ditches in winter" talk is purely utilitarian altruism - rriiiiiiiiight... :roll:
Why not just call a tow truck when you need one? Do you really HAVE to own such a vehicle yourself?
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If it can't "roll coal" why would you buy it? lol
The 3 is a great car and a lot of people own them around here. It's not for everyone (yet) but for those that can afford it and deal with the idiosyncrasies, it's an option. There is a waiting list just for a test drive. Performance is killer....
Yes I have test driven it twice and my son also took it for a spin , technologically and comfort as well as ride it beats anything that Detroit or even Japan puts out in the market today . we ordered ours today. with 5K down and payments are reasonable
Asghar :thumb:
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Ha. Yeah, no ego in an F150, right? None at all... Purely utilitarian. All of that "pulling cars out of ditches in winter" talk is purely utilitarian altruism - rriiiiiiiiight... :roll:
Why not just call a tow truck when you need one? Do you really HAVE to own such a vehicle yourself?
Car purchases are almost entirely emotionally driven. Back in the early 90's I sold cars for a short time. Previously, I was one of the nation's top salespeople selling electronics at a department store. I didn't do well selling cars though, it's pretty much the total opposite of selling electronics. For selling cars, actually knowing about the cars you are selling is often a disadvantage, because if you give someone information that conflicts with their emotional attachment to the car they will dislike you and not want to buy a car from you. This is why dealers often hires salespeople who are absolutely not auto enthusiasts, and you've probably noticed car salespeople don't know too much about the cars they sell. This isn't just chance, it's intentional. Some dealers just want a happy idiot that can bring potential customers really bad deals with a smile on their face.
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Car purchases are almost entirely emotionally driven. Back in the early 90's I sold cars for a short time. Previously, I was one of the nation's top salespeople selling electronics at a department store. I didn't do well selling cars though, it's pretty much the total opposite of selling electronics. For selling cars, actually knowing about the cars you are selling is often a disadvantage, because if you give someone information that conflicts with their emotional attachment to the car they will dislike you and not want to buy a car from you. This is why dealers often hires salespeople who are absolutely not auto enthusiasts, and you've probably noticed car salespeople don't know too much about the cars they sell. This isn't just chance, it's intentional. Some dealers just want a happy idiot that can bring potential customers really bad deals with a smile on their face.
Interesting perspective, thanks.
I used to sell 'high end' stereo and I think the same was true to an extent, there, too. Customers tended to come in 'pre-sold' on something and just wanted the best price on that item. It was fairly rare for them to change their minds based on what they heard in comparative listening. Some definitely wanted to impress friends—I remember one guy buying B&W 800s and refusing to listen to us about upgrading his really low end 30 wpc receiver to drive them; he just wanted them to decorate his living room. I also remember taking a lot of time to put together a really compatible (but small) system for an accountant. At the end of the three hour process as he was leaving with it all, all he wanted to know was 'how much he saved' due to the discounts we gave him here and there under pressure from him.
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Well, those last two posts are really depressing!
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I encourage folks to buy leading edge stuff in hopes that the R&D they're funding will create technology that will trickle down to something practical that I can afford. Tesla is operating on leading edge, first kid on the block, and zoom-zoom for their sales. GM and others are operating on economy of scale and 'foot in the door' long term investment concepts.
Still holding out for fuel cell cars to become technically and financially viable (in the midwest). My ideal car would involve being self sufficient based on solar panels, a fuel cell to produce hydrogen to be stored in pressure vessels (propane tanks) that could be used for the fuel cell cars and home with convenient hydrogen filling stations everywhere. This would get rid of slow fills, nasty battery production/disposal, heavy batteries that wear out, and impacts/losses relating to distribution of electricity (can you imagine a world with no overhead lines in the country?).
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Well, if you watch the news, the Tesla factory was shut down for awhile because their cars were catching on fire, just like the powered skate boards.
Leading edge products cost is way too expensive for people to buy on a whim. The first video tape machines and CD players had high price tags and only the most affluent people could afford to buy them.
Like I stated before, the electric car has been under development for over 100 years. Things do not change over night. Even if it did, what would happen to the millions of people employed in one way or another in the petro industry?
BTW, my town doesn't have any overhead power lines, because we all decided to bury them. No storm damage, no pole replacement. Not a new technology either, just different thinking.
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Well, if you watch the news, the Tesla factory was shut down for awhile because their cars were catching on fire, just like the powered skate boards.
A very hot Tesla.
https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-catches-fire-while-in-motion-not-caused-by-crash/
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Well, if you watch the news, the Tesla factory was shut down for awhile because their cars were catching on fire, just like the powered skate boards.
Leading edge products cost is way too expensive for people to buy on a whim. The first video tape machines and CD players had high price tags and only the most affluent people could afford to buy them.
Like I stated before, the electric car has been under development for over 100 years. Things do not change over night. Even if it did, what would happen to the millions of people employed in one way or another in the petro industry?
BTW, my town doesn't have any overhead power lines, because we all decided to bury them. No storm damage, no pole replacement. Not a new technology either, just different thinking.
Do you honestly think that jobs in a sector is a reason to keep that industry alive even when a better alternative exists (not say EV is there). Should we still have whaleing and folks burning the oil to save jobs? Shit changes and jobs evolve. If the petro industry dies so be it. If solar, wind or something new takes its place the world will likely be better off.
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Nikola Tesla had the right idea, free energy.
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Nikola Tesla had the right idea, free energy.
Tesla would surely have advocated for solar panels and electric cars. Be aware, however, that there is a difference between "free" and no cost to you. The full price of everything is paid by someone. Who should pay for yours?
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Yes, I do. Technology will prove (or disprove) itself in the long run. Technology is not of itself, but of economics and other infrastructures and systems that have developed thru time. The modern car did not become what it is today without it going thru a technological revolution, starting even before the Model T. Forcing technologies to the forefront will do more damage in the long run, to our economy, to design and development. I've even heard of people working on cars that will run on water. Are we ready for it yet...no way.
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Tesla would surely have advocated for solar panels and electric cars. Be aware, however, that there is a difference between "free" and no cost to you. The full price of everything is paid by someone. Who should pay for yours?
Maybe, but look where that got Tesla, bankrupt and he died alone. In the end, Tesla was not a success as some would think, but a failure. A great idea, implemented poorly (or not at all). And you are quite correct that there is nothing for free, someone will end up paying the bill and that is usually the middle class.
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Out here in Minnesota, windmills and solar panels are consuming valuable farm land. If we decided to go all electric, we are going to need more power plants, 'cause wind and solar are not going to make up for the difference. Power plants are powered by coal, burnable waste, natural gas, diesel and Nuclear. There are really no rivers to dam up for hydro left and they screw up the environment, too.
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Yes, I do. Technology will prove (or disprove) itself in the long run. Technology is not of itself, but of economics and other infrastructures and systems that have developed thru time. The modern car did not become what it is today without it going thru a technological revolution, starting even before the Model T. Forcing technologies to the forefront will do more damage in the long run, to our economy, to design and development. I've even heard of people working on cars that will run on water. Are we ready for it yet...no way.
Wayner - The issue with the Tesla car is not about technology being forced to the forefront so much as it is existing technologies trying to keep it in the background. There is an active misinformation campaign being waged against what is assuredly the car of the near future. Of course, there will be missteps and adjustments along the way but none of those things will intercept a worthy improvement permanently. On the other hand, it would be nice if the naysayers would give it a rest by no longer repeating all the myths and non truths that surface to discourage or retard growth that helps everyone except the supplanted entities.
Electric cars are a good idea for our times. Carburetor>fuel injection>electric car=natural progression. Let's all get with the program. Solar panels last 25+ years. How can you compare that to something like coal that must be replenished multiple times every day? The materials in the solar panels that can't be recycled wouldn't even equal one day's worth of coal pollution.
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The materials in the solar panels that can't be recycled wouldn't even equal one day's worth of coal pollution.
You realize that the pollution that other countries contribute is so large that virtually no matter what we do in the USA it will not even move the needle, right? The amount of coal plants that were bought by China ~9 years ago is staggering. It is exported daily....
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macro,
Not sure exactly what is part of the "active misinformation campaign"? What I said is based on my own analysis of the issue and not regurgitated info I read somewhere.
You really need to look into what it takes to manufacture some of this new tech... solar cells, batteries and electric motors are unfortunately not some of the more benign items to make.
Here's some help to get you started...
https://www.google.com/search?q=rare+earth+mining+china&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS762US762&oq=rare+earth+mining+china&aqs=chrome..69i57.4368j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS762US762&ei=hqaOW8XmNoTjjwTTnKnACw&q=cobalt+mining+africa&oq=cobalt+mining+africa&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30l5.46298.50056..51895...0.0..0.83.1401.20......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j0i131j0i67j0i131i67.gsqmq6WICig
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Also important to mention that to make solar panels and every component within them you use oil. Forget about the distribution even.
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Tesla would surely have advocated for solar panels and electric cars. Be aware, however, that there is a difference between "free" and no cost to you. The full price of everything is paid by someone. Who should pay for yours?
No one, the many thousands of pyramids all over the earth puts out all the free energy we all would ever need.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko-ZboCzR64
https://www.sociedelic.com/electromagnetic-fields-and-healing-powers-of-the-bosnian-pyramids/
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There is also Thermal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_free_energy
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Out here in Minnesota, windmills and solar panels are consuming valuable farm land. If we decided to go all electric, we are going to need more power plants, 'cause wind and solar are not going to make up for the difference. Power plants are powered by coal, burnable waste, natural gas, diesel and Nuclear. There are really no rivers to dam up for hydro left and they screw up the environment, too.
You say that electric cars are an old technology but you overlook the fact that the battery technology is moving at a faster pace than probably anything else out there. Not only that the computer technology, i.e. chips is too. Those tiny long lasting batteries in your smartphone were non-existent 30 years ago. The batteries are getting smaller, lighter and more powerful each year.
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:D if 1%of the cars on earth were electric, all the worlds nic cad would be used up. Hummmm
Battery techs are hard at work. Hope they can find a solution as we have built a drive style life. Did you see those fields of disgaurded peddle bikes in China. Ohhhhh man,, We need to ride more and walk more. Everybody is such a fat ass. :D
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You say that electric cars are an old technology but you overlook the fact that the battery technology is moving at a faster pace than probably anything else out there. Not only that the computer technology, i.e. chips is too. Those tiny long lasting batteries in your smartphone were non-existent 30 years ago. The batteries are getting smaller, lighter and more powerful each year.
I understand that, but the battery technology and its manufacturing probably isn't even allowed by our own EPA, not to mention that they catch on fire. And, they still haven't overcome the limited mileage problems. I am not against electric cars (or another energy source), but I am against pushing on a technology that has not proven itself and has several hurdles to jump, before the majority are on board, the infrastructure is in place and the old infrastructure is not smoldering in economic ruins. There are countries on this planet that's sole source (for the most part) is oil export. That would be most of OPEC. You don't care about them?
The process of change is a slow one. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had a government mandate that said everyone has to have an electric car by such and such a date, and when we are half way there, somebody comes up with a nifty hydrogen system for half the cost and is compatible with some of the existing infrastructure?
The horse and buggy were eventually replaced by the automobile, but the dirt roads that were fine for horse and buggy had to now be paved. And something new came along, car fatalities.
The same thing is happening in audio, worse in video. Until a few years ago, who would ever think of downloading a movie. The reason they can do it now is that the "infrastructure" is in place to provide such a service. Without the infrastructure, it would be only on a very limited scale.
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Also, maybe the electric car industry is going about it all wrong. Instead of having recharging stations for the batteries, how about battery exchange stations and get new batteries. Its still Quick Trip, can still get gas there, but now if you have an electric, a guy comes out, slides your old spent batteries out and sticks new ones in. Doesn't take any longer then filling up with gas, you give the station its $70 and away you go.
The station then recharges your old batteries and sticks them into the next eCar that comes along needing a recharge.
Flashlight batteries dead, put in new batteries, eCar batteries dead, put in new batteries.
Tesla (and everyone else) is doing it wrong!
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The one problem with that is that there would be so many stolen batteries!
Also, the OPEC nations already have tons of oil money that they are saving, investing (probably not too wisely) and also squandering. They shouldn't be hurting if they are.
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http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2018/09/04/mercedes-benz-eqc-is-tesla-rivaling-electric-suv.html
BTW, if Frank wants a Tesla 3, I hope he gets one!
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http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2018/09/04/mercedes-benz-eqc-is-tesla-rivaling-electric-suv.html
BTW, if Frank wants a Tesla 3, I hope he gets one!
By the time you add any options to that Mercedes, it will be over $80K. Besides, I would rather buy an american made electric from a company that only makes electrics and has been for the last few years.
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And there is always China with their much lower priced cars.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/26/chinas-electric-car-sales-up-64-in-july/
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By the time you add any options to that Mercedes, it will be over $80K. Besides, I would rather buy an american made electric from a company that only makes electrics and has been for the last few years.
I honestly wish Tesla the best, their tech seems superior vs their competition but otoh their lack of manufacturing experience is a liability. From what I've read they aren't leaning on prior art to the degree they maybe should so it'll be interesting to see if they can come up with a car that's screwed together properly.
MB does have the manufacturing experience although German cars have not been getting better over the years in many ways. I have no idea about their electric vehicle tech vs Tesla.
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We should be doing this https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/24/eroadarlanda-built-a-road-that-charges-electric-vehicles-as-they-drive.html
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:D tesla would be long done if it wasn't for taxpayer money. Corp welfare big time.
And battery exchange sounds good on paper. Way to complex ,not like an oil change yet. :D
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I started this topic just to report about driving a new and innovative car that impressed me.
I have not bought a new car in 16 years. It was a new Audi S6 Avant that cost $64,000 new back then. I have been checking out several different options over the past few months.
I wanted something with the same feeling of security and stability, the same capable high power and fun to drive feeling, but not priced like an equivalent to a new Audi.
The Tesla 3 exceeded my expectations. Since the test drive, I have been researching the advantages and disadvantages of owning an EV. I have learned that Tesla has a comprehensive nation wide network of quick charge stations so a 300 mile range is no big deal. Also, I can do a 240V charge station at home pretty easily. Also, with the all wheel drive version, it will be even better for driving on slippery roads than my Audi as its reaction time is much quicker.
I was very impressed with the unique Auto Drive capability. I am not getting any younger and the Tesla system is faster than me in responding to someone stopping suddenly in front of me, or drifting into my driving lane. True self driving software will be uploaded later, when perfected. Looking at finished cars at the Tesla store now, it is obvious that the issues of QC are pretty well resolved. Lots of tests show that the battery pack should last for years and years. There will be more interesting and useful functions built into the Model 3 that will be available as free downloads as time goes on.
Most of the comments here in this topic have been just politics.
I do have opinions about certain kind of cars too. I consider the idea of an urban pickup truck kinda strange. Its best use here is helping a neighbor move. In a rural area, for moving hay bales or taking a sick cow to the vet. Otherwise with the high center of gravity and the aerodynamics of a brick, I am not impressed. However that is just my opinion.
Then there is the issue of natural resources use. I worry about fracking, oil spills, coal mining by mountain top removal, and Canadian very dirty oil sands more than using up some rare minerals.
The gummet bailed out GM and Chrysler (Ford removed per Wayne's correctIon) super big time when they about went belly up during the last big recession. The EV $7500 tax credit is running out soon, and will be gone by the time I order and receive a new Tesla, assuming that I do that. Two of the big three would be long gone if it was not for taxpayer money. Corp welfare big time as stated herein. :)
The heated emotional response to the Tesla makes about as much sense as today's uncivil political discourse. I am sorry to see so much of this in this topic.
Frank
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Thanks for posting this, Frank. Putting aside the political squabbling, there can be no doubt that it’s a very interesting vehicle with some unique extras.
Look at this:
““Not only did the vehicle system completely scrub the cabin air, but in the ensuing minutes, it began to vacuum the air outside the car as well, reducing PM2.5 levels by 40%. In other words, Bioweapon Defense Mode is not a marketing statement, it is real. You can literally survive a military grade bio attack by sitting in your car.
Moreover, it will also clean the air outside your car, making things better for those around you. And while this test happened to be done with a Model X, the same would be true of the new Model S now in production.”
Cheers,
Lester
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It amazes me how small the electric motors to power these cars are.
I stumbled on this video showing the manufacturing process of the electric motors for the Audi electric:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq6z1hShFcE
A word of caution—it's 18 minutes long and you might be drawn in to watching the whole thing.
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The Government did NOT bale out FORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They did not take one damn penny from the US tax payers.
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I started this topic just to report about driving a new and innovative car that impressed me.
I have not bought a new car in 16 years. It was a new Audi S6 Avant that cost $64,000 new back then. I have been checking out several different options over the past few months.
I wanted something with the same feeling of security and stability, the same capable high power and fun to drive feeling, but not priced like an equivalent to a new Audi.
The Tesla 3 exceeded my expectations. Since the test drive, I have been researching the advantages and disadvantages of owning an EV. I have learned that Tesla has a comprehensive nation wide network of quick charge stations so a 300 mile range is no big deal. Also, I can do a 240V charge station at home pretty easily. Also, with the all wheel drive version, it will be even better for driving on slippery roads than my Audi as its reaction time is much quicker.
I was very impressed with the unique Auto Drive capability. I am not getting any younger and the Tesla system is faster than me in responding to someone stopping suddenly in front of me, or drifting into my driving lane. True self driving software will be uploaded later, when perfected. Looking at finished cars at the Tesla store now, it is obvious that the issues of QC are pretty well resolved. Lots of tests show that the battery pack should last for years and years. There will be more interesting and useful functions built into the Model 3 that will be available as free downloads as time goes on.
Most of the comments here in this topic have been just politics.
I do have opinions about certain kind of cars too. I consider the idea of an urban pickup truck kinda strange. Its best use here is helping a neighbor move. In a rural area, for moving hay bales or taking a sick cow to the vet. Otherwise with the high center of gravity and the aerodynamics of a brick, I am not impressed. However that is just my opinion.
Then there is the issue of natural resources use. I worry about fracking, oil spills, coal mining by mountain top removal, and Canadian very dirty oil sands more than using up some rare minerals.
The gummet bailed out Ford, GM, and Chrysler super big time when they about went belly up during the last big recession. The EV $7500 tax credit is running out soon, and will be gone by the time I order and receive a new Tesla, assuming that I do that. The big three would be long gone if it was not for taxpayer money. Corp welfare big time as stated herein. :)
The heated emotional response to the Tesla makes about as much sense as today's uncivil political discourse. I am sorry to see so much of this in this topic.
Frank
Well, why did you even post this in an audio forum? BTW, get your facts straight. Ford did not take any money bail outs. GM and Chrysler did and were forgiven some of the money given to them by the last president.
I'm sure a "city slicker" wouldn't have a clue what to do with a pick-up, that brick of a vehicle.
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I wonder if Tesla has a pickup in the works...
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Yes, Tesla is working on a pickup truck.
Check here:
Electrek.co
Frank
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Enjoying your excitement with the Tesla! Have a couple engineer friends with them and my cousin has a trucking company and a couple of his sales people have them. They are in Indiana and read the paper on the way into work on I65.
I post this as comedy rather then political. Funny this morning the news report of the F150 recall for fires.
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You realize that the pollution that other countries contribute is so large that virtually no matter what we do in the USA it will not even move the needle, right? The amount of coal plants that were bought by China ~9 years ago is staggering. It is exported daily....
No, China sees the writing on the wall; the science is clear. Coal will be phased out but they need to keep the lights on until the transition is closer to completion. The sickening pollution that is present in all their major cities is making their lives miserable and this affects the decision making elites as well as the average person. They're moving faster than we are towards a clean energy future. What's holding us back is entrenched fossil fuel energy elites that are very effective at pushing their economic interests ahead of the interests of the country as a whole.
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Funny this morning the news report of the F150 recall for fires.
Seatbelt fires, no less. :o
You've got to give it to Ford, though. 85% of all Fords ever made are still on the road today. The other 15% made it home.
How was the Tesla's sound system, Frank? That whole 'noise-to-signal ratio' thing should be much different in an electric car, no?
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The Tesla 3 has a very good sound system. Tesla has worked very hard on this. No engine noise to contribute to the noise to signal ratio.
However, no CD or cassette payer 😢
However one can plug in a USB memory stick full of music.
Charging ports for smart phones too. You can use your smart phone as the key to unlock and run the car, either at the car or remotely when you use the fetch function.
Every software download keeps improving the Tesla and unlocking more functions. When Consumer Reports noticed that stopping distances were a bit too long, a prompt upgrade fixed that issue.
The next upgrade is supposed to provide an optional use of a PIN number to unlock driving the car as an additional security measure.
The standard rear motor version does 0 to 60 in about 5+ seconds. The dual motor all wheel drive version I am interested in is 4+ seconds. Pay more and unlock the “performance” function and 0 to 60 goes down to 3+ seconds.
The new VERY EXPENSIVE coupe under development now claims 0 to 60 in 1.8 seconds, a top speed of 250 mph, and a range of 600 miles. This will be a Porsche and Ferrari killer, but unfortunately a driver killer too unless they are very well trained and experienced.
There is a huge electric semi truck Tesla touring the country now pulling a loaded trailer. It’s goal is to eliminate big diesel smog producing over the road trucks. Old line fossil fuel burner companies are worried.
Frank
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Cool video link in the Elector article below of a guy going through the systems of a salvaged Tesla Model 3. If you're used to ICE and Big 3 auto systems, this is quite an interesting contrast.
https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/tesla-model-3-striptease-in-the-garage?utm_source=Elektor+United+States+%28English%29&utm_campaign=7ba2277e12-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_9_6_2018_15_22&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8b7374950c-7ba2277e12-234934437&mc_cid=7ba2277e12&mc_eid=3e209d06b2 (https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/tesla-model-3-striptease-in-the-garage?utm_source=Elektor+United+States+%28English%29&utm_campaign=7ba2277e12-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_9_6_2018_15_22&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8b7374950c-7ba2277e12-234934437&mc_cid=7ba2277e12&mc_eid=3e209d06b2)
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There is a huge electric semi truck Tesla touring the country now pulling a loaded trailer. It’s goal is to eliminate big diesel smog producing over the road trucks. Old line fossil fuel burner companies are worried.
I didn't know that, very cool.
Walmart orders 30 more Tesla Semi trucks for its fleet
https://www.engadget.com/2018/09/06/walmart-orders-30-more-tesla-semi-trucks/ (https://www.engadget.com/2018/09/06/walmart-orders-30-more-tesla-semi-trucks/)
"This isn't the hugest order (PepsiCo, for instance, has 100 on deck)."
(https://evobsession.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/tesla-semi-pre-orders.png)
(https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://s.thestreet.com/files/tsc/v2008/photos/contrib/uploads/7140c566-cba2-11e7-bfc8-ab83ae21cc45.png)
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Seatbelt fires, no less. :o
You've got to give it to Ford, though. 85% of all Fords ever made are still on the road today. The other 15% made it home.
:lol:
This actually made me laugh out loud.
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For anyone interested, Joe Rogan interviewed Elon Musk last night on his podcast. I’m only 30 min in and the discussion about AI is freaking me out. He’s a different kinda dude for sure.
https://youtu.be/ycPr5-27vSI
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The Tesla 3 has a very good sound system. Tesla has worked very hard on this. No engine noise to contribute to the noise to signal ratio.
My electric is very quiet as well but that just means I can hear everyone else's music ;-( Especially waiting at lights.
I wish I had more subwoofers. That'll teach 'em!
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For anyone interested, Joe Rogan interviewed Elon Musk last night on his podcast. I’m only 30 min in and the discussion about AI is freaking me out. He’s a different kinda dude for sure.
https://youtu.be/ycPr5-27vSI
Got to the part where Musk toked up yet?
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https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-outsold-bmw-passenger-cars/
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:lol:
This actually made me laugh out loud.
That was super funny! Doesn't Ford mean Fix Or Repair Daily? :) (And they have these for every manufacturer.)
If you want to get concerned about AI, what happens when AI replaces drivers in Taxis, Ubers, delivery trucks, 18 wheelers, etc.? What do all those people do for work? One of the reasons there are fewer factory workers in the US is because of automation (and of course fewer factories). Factories don't need as many workers as they used to need, so even if you can get a factory to start up, you don't get as many workers in the factory as you used to get.
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As Charlie Chaplin would say, welcome to Modern Times! :green:
Gene
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That was super funny! Doesn't Ford mean Fix Or Repair Daily? :) (And they have these for every manufacturer.)
If you want to get concerned about AI, what happens when AI replaces drivers in Taxis, Ubers, delivery trucks, 18 wheelers, etc.? What do all those people do for work?
You'll end up with mass unemployment and poverty, and the crime that comes with it. Cities will be for the wealthy and the outskirts will be lawless. It's already happening. Every major city in America is becoming gentrified, forcing low income persons into the suburbs.
If this sounds fatalistic, it's not meant to be. I viewed the Musk youtube interview and he made some very valid points about AI.
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Seatbelt fires, no less. :o
You've got to give it to Ford, though. 85% of all Fords ever made are still on the road today. The other 15% made it home.
How was the Tesla's sound system, Frank? That whole 'noise-to-signal ratio' thing should be much different in an electric car, no?
Your brains (or lack of) are showing. And your a Volunteer.......
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You'll end up with mass unemployment and poverty, and the crime that comes with it. Cities will be for the wealthy and the outskirts will be lawless. It's already happening. Every major city in America is becoming gentrified, forcing low income persons into the suburbs.
If this sounds fatalistic, it's not meant to be. I viewed the Musk youtube interview and he made some very valid points about AI.
The solution might be 20 hour work weeks. You know, the initial promise of the industrial revolution...
I'm very sure we don't have modern jobs for 8 billion or whatever folks, so we need to redefine success and consider a financial system that isn't based on continuous growth.
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Half of the 8 Billion don't work now.......free money, why work?
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Half of the 8 Billion don't work now.......free money, why work?
Good point. Part of the solution might involve doing just that in the form of a minimum guaranteed income. It would likely be more effective and overall cheaper vs the current system, and I'd also bet it would reduce crime, especially if combined with legalization and regulation of all drugs.
We need to start thinking outside our current paradigm and remove the ego from the equation, people get angry about giving people "free money" but we need to do what works regardless of hurt feelings and indignation.
We don't have jobs for everyone on the planet, it's as simple as that. Ultimately, the solution is for people to have less kids. We talk about cars and renewable energy, and these are worthy topics, but having kids may be the most selfish and destructive thing you can do right now. I don't know that for a fact and haven't studied it closely, but I wouldn't be surprised. I think we need a goal to halve the population over the next decades...
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Your brains (or lack of) are showing. And your a Volunteer.......
:rotflmao:
Thank you; I needed that.
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:rotflmao:
Thank you; I needed that.
I expect us member to go off the beaten path, but when volunteers throw coals on the fire, it's no wonder why the AC membership numbers are not very high. And I know lots of members here are sick of the attitude of "police" department here.
Why not start slamming some one that owns JBL or Marantz or Dynaco. Those are also American Classics.
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How as the weather when you drove the car, Frank?
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+1 JerryM :lol:
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Jerry, your last post was not nice.
I request that you remove it.
Frank
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Jerry, your last post was not nice.
I request that you remove it.
Frank
Done. :thumb:
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We don't have jobs for everyone on the planet, it's as simple as that. Ultimately, the solution is for people to have less kids. We talk about cars and renewable energy, and these are worthy topics, but having kids may be the most selfish and destructive thing you can do right now. I don't know that for a fact and haven't studied it closely, but I wouldn't be surprised. I think we need a goal to halve the population over the next decades...
Don't worry about overpopulation. Nature will handle that just as it does with every other species.
Also, keep in mind that population control has tremendous racial implications, so you have to be very careful. Think eugenics, Margaret Sanger, the holocaust, etc.
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Weather when I drive the Tesla 3 was heavy clouds to light drizzle, but not enough to turn on its rain sensing windshield wipers. Traction was fine. I drive the dual motor AWD version rated to have about 400 HP.
I could only hold pedal to the floor for about 2.5 seconds when doing Tesla guide suggested acceleration from a stop test. Already going nearly double the city speed limit when I backed off. Surprising, even though I am used to brisk driving with my 340 hp Audi S6.
Acceleration is INSTANT! Zero delay. Massive instant torque. No drama, just launches like from a catapult.
It is the best car I have ever driven. Great handling, road feel, and stability. Planning to order dual motor version, dark grey metallic finish. I will pass on the auto pilot option at first as it can be downloaded later.
Hoping to order late next winter for spring delivery.
Now all I need is for a bunch if you guys to buy a lot more AVA equipment to help me finance my dream.
Frank
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Don't worry about overpopulation. Nature will handle that just as it does with every other species.
Also, keep in mind that population control has tremendous racial implications, so you have to be very careful. Think eugenics, Margaret Sanger, the holocaust, etc.
It's probably better to reduce the population by having fewer kids vs letting diseases kill millions or billions. Although it's probably too late as we're currently seeing horrible diseases spread throughout the US via ticks and mosquitoes, Ebola in Africa, and that crazy bird flu that could wipe out a lot of folks in China.
I'm not sure it has to be a racial issue but it's true that more advanced country's populations are leveling off so the push to stop having kids would be aimed at growing populations which are typically more 3rd world. I don't have any good solutions here and I'm not sure anything is going to change the ingrained monkey-mind that has that urge to procreate. It also goes against many religious beliefs. I do believe this is the real issue though, technology will make it possible to sustain more people on earth but we're obviously past the limits of sustainability given our current tech and behavior right now.
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Weather when I drive the Tesla 3 was heavy clouds to light drizzle, but not enough to turn on its rain sensing windshield wipers. Traction was fine. I drive the dual motor AWD version rated to have about 400 HP.
I could only hold pedal to the floor for about 2.5 seconds when doing Tesla guide suggested acceleration from a stop test. Already going nearly double the city speed limit when I backed off. Surprising, even though I am used to brisk driving with my 340 hp Audi S6.
Acceleration is INSTANT! Zero delay. Massive instant torque. No drama, just launches like from a catapult.
It is the best car I have ever driven. Great handling, road feel, and stability. Planning to order dual motor version, dark grey metallic finish. I will pass on the auto pilot option at first as it can be downloaded later.
Hoping to order late next winter for spring delivery.
Now all I need is for a bunch if you guys to buy a lot more AVA equipment to help me finance my dream.
Frank
I have to admit I like Tesla more after hearing the podcast with Elon and his views on Tesla. He knows and admits they are toys as much as "green" transportation devices. I have no issue at all with people having toys if that's what they want, and I like fast cars myself.
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It's probably better to reduce the population by having fewer kids vs letting diseases kill millions or billions. Although it's probably too late as we're currently seeing horrible diseases spread throughout the US via ticks and mosquitoes, Ebola in Africa, and that crazy bird flu that could wipe out a lot of folks in China.
How do you know it's better to reduce the population instead of letting nature handle it? Is man smarter than nature?
I'm not sure it has to be a racial issue but it's true that more advanced country's populations are leveling off so the push to stop having kids would be aimed at growing populations which are typically more 3rd world. I don't have any good solutions here and I'm not sure anything is going to change the ingrained monkey-mind that has that urge to procreate.
It's interesting that you acknowldge the racial implications of population control, then in the next sentence you use the derogatory term, "monkey-mind" that could easily be construed to refer to 3rd world people you mentioned in the first sentence. This is the problem with the discussion of population control. It's not an issue one should discuss casually.
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How do you know it's better to reduce the population instead of letting nature handle it? Is man smarter than nature?
It's interesting that you acknowldge the racial implications of population control, then in the next sentence you use the derogatory term, "monkey-mind" that could easily be construed to refer to 3rd world people you mentioned in the first sentence. This is the problem with the discussion of population control. It's not an issue one should discuss casually.
It's not a derogatory term and I never used it in the manner you suggest. "Monkey-mind" is the part of our genetics that predisposes us to certain behaviors and it applies to everyone.
In general, people need to htfu and stop getting offended so easily.
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It's not a derogatory term and I never used it in the manner you suggest. "Monkey-mind" is the part of our genetics that predisposes us to certain behaviors and it applies to everyone.
Your intent and how you define the term is not relevant. The point is that some terms shouldn't be used in the context of racially polarizing issues, and "monkey-mind" is certainly one of them.
As you mentioned, do some research on the topic and I'm sure you'll find that it's a highly complex issue that has tremendous human rights implications (think: mass sterilization) and a contorted history. Also contemplate how a government would enforce such a program and the penalties for those who don't comply (think: castration - ouch!).
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Well, back to electric cars.
It's still a small percentage of cars sold but the market seems stable.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tesla-isn-apos-t-facing-141500312.html
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I saw this the other day...
https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/06/ford-gives-the-first-peek-at-its-mustang-inspired-electric-crossover/
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For me, the Volt was a good compromise. I would use battery the vast majority of time, except for winter when the engine came on and also for longer distances. It only had about 60 miles on a non-cold day, but my drive is only 30 miles round trip.
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How about a Jaguar I-Pace EV?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/09/09/tesla-fighter-jaguars-electric-pace-stakes-its-claim-musk-turf/1226914002/
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How about a Jaguar I-Pace EV?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/09/09/tesla-fighter-jaguars-electric-pace-stakes-its-claim-musk-turf/1226914002/
Looks like an $18,000 Honda Civic with a $70,000 Jaguar nameplate glued on. I thought one reason to buy a Jaguar is to let everyone see you are driving a Jaguar, the I-Pace would be hard to find in a Walmart parking lot without an antenna topper.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZH4AAOSwPc9Wy8ks/s-l300.jpg)
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Your intent and how you define the term is not relevant. The point is that some terms shouldn't be used in the context of racially polarizing issues, and "monkey-mind" is certainly one of them.
As you mentioned, do some research on the topic and I'm sure you'll find that it's a highly complex issue that has tremendous human rights implications (think: mass sterilization) and a contorted history. Also contemplate how a government would enforce such a program and the penalties for those who don't comply (think: castration - ouch!).
HUH? monkey mind is a meditation, Buddhist, eastern philosophy thing. Right?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2017/02/28/8-science-based-tricks-for-quieting-the-monkey-mind/#340ef4641af6
I guess our propaganda is different for the regions we live in. :)
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The trouble with other EV brand startups is that they are just startups with no charging networks.
Only Tesla has a well developed network of Level 3 fast charging stations all over the USA (and Europe).
Other non-Tesla charging stations are almost Level 2 types which will only allow about 40 miles of range added per hour at the best. A Tesla can use these in a pinch and there are lots of these too.
This is fine for at home overnight charging, but inadequate for cross country use.
The Tesla GPS system along with using their iPhone Tesla app, shows SuperCharge stations along and near your planned route. It also shows number of now available charging stalls and what food, rest, and lodging stops are nearby. In general, its about one half of hour charging time to get you another 200 -250 miles down the road. Unless needed it recommended that you keep the charge between 20 percent and 80 percent to provide longest battery life. Note that the battery is guaranteed for 8 years even if you don't follow their recommendations.
Frank
Frank
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9.10.2018 - Another fun read in Wired:
Hackers Can Steal a Tesla Model S in Seconds by Cloning Its Key Fob
https://www.wired.com/story/hackers-steal-tesla-model-s-seconds-key-fob?mbid=nl_091118_daily_list1_p2&CNDID=30803929 (https://www.wired.com/story/hackers-steal-tesla-model-s-seconds-key-fob?mbid=nl_091118_daily_list1_p2&CNDID=30803929)
"A team of researchers at the KU Leuven university in Belgium on Monday plan to present a paper at the Cryptographic Hardware and Embedded Systems conference in Amsterdam [11/1/2018], revealing a technique for defeating the encryption used in the wireless key fobs of Tesla's Model S luxury sedans. With about $600 in radio and computing equipment, they can wirelessly read signals from a nearby Tesla owner's fob. Less than two seconds of computation yields the fob's cryptographic key, allowing them to steal the associated car without a trace."
"Tesla also says that Model S units sold after June of this year aren't vulnerable to the attack, due to upgraded key fob encryption that it implemented in response to the KU Leuven research. But if owners of a Model S manufactured before then don't turn on that PIN—or don't pay to replace their key fob with the more strongly encrypted version—the researchers say they're still vulnerable to their key-cloning method."
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A replacement key card is about $10.
Also next generation free software download will provide optional use of PIN number to enter in to start car.
So much for existing hacks.
Who knows what bad people will try in the future. What is really safe these days?
Frank
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What is the cost to replace the batteries??
Alex
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What is the cost to replace the batteries??
Alex
I believe Frank mentioned earlier that all Teslas have an 8 year warranty on the batteries. So you might rightly deduce from that that the battery replacement cost for the first 8 years is always zero dollars. It is probably useless to speculate what the cost might be should the batteries require replacement after 8 years because of the rapid (and accelerating) rate of change we are witnessing today in battery technology. Seems like this is not a worry.
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I know Frank really likes the incredible acceleration on the Tesla.
OTOH, IME, you do not need it so much. My electric car has instant torque so even without the crazy acceleration most ICE cars are left 2-3 blocks behind me from a stop light. With the acceleration I need a telescope to see them :-)
Since the car is silent when accelerating (or high pitched whine) is it even possible to get an excessive start ticket when driving an electric?
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8 years?? I question this one.....what are the battery warenty details?? Pro- rated or is it 100% period.....any battery I have bought always had a pro-rated warrenty....the devil is in the details......and what do you do with milliions of batteries at the end of thir life cycle??
Alex
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and what do you do with milliions of batteries at the end of thir life cycle??
Alex
Proven fact, you use A LOT of oil to recycle them! It's such a farce it's ridiculous as people can't think through the whole process as they only see one very small part.
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Expecting new technology ecosystems to come out all at once and be all inclusive is ridiculous.
Also, everyone here is unwilling to acknowledge that to some the Model 3 is move fun to drive, less of a pita to own and a cool chunk of tech. If I came on here showing my “cool” new M3 or 10 mpg muscle car many would ooo and ah over it. Never mentioning the resources that it takes to provide for the car. Shall we look st the Daily Driver thread?
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Proven fact, you use A LOT of oil to recycle them! It's such a farce it's ridiculous as people can't think through the whole process as they only see one very small part.
Can you cite any sources stating that it takes "A LOT of oil to recycle them? What are the proven facts?
Also, consider the internal combustion car, what do you do with all of the used motor oil, radiator fluid, ATF and differential fluid, brakepads etc. What is the cost to recycle those fliuds? And don't tell me all of that is proprely recycled. This stuff is dumped and polluting our waterways.
Also, from the comments above, why do you expect the battery to be replaced in 8 years? Studies have shown that the Tesls battery looses 9% after 170,000 miles and 20% after 510,000 miles. Most internal combustion cars after 200,000 miles are toast, requiring major repairs or replacment by that time.
https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e
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I think a Tesla 3 would be neat to drive....but I also realize where we are in the real world, good and bad.....If Frank wants a Tesla "more power to him" and I hope he has fu with it....just as much fun as I did with my 3 Corvettes sucking down 93 octane!!
I am not arguing the idea, but as many the concept is great on paper and there is a cost from getting from where we are to where many want to go with electric cars...nuff said...
But what is the cost of replacing those batteries if the car is in an accident??? What is the insurance ratings for one of these beasts??
Inquiring minds want to know, not to argue!
:>)
Alex
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My insurance agent quoted about $1000 a year to insure the Tesla 3. Of course part of this reason is I have no accidents in 50 years of driving other then a fender bender long long ago with my brand new 1959 VW (other guys fault).
Good definition of safe driver: someone who has not locked his brakes to avoid an accident in the past 10 years.
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I wonder why Elon didn't go with a replaceable battery pack? That way Tesla owners could just pull in to the refuel station and swap packs in a matter of minutes and go rather than waiting for a charge for some length of time. It would be closer to the present refueling model.
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I wonder why Elon didn't go with a replaceable battery pack? That way Tesla owners could just pull in to the refuel station and swap packs in a matter of minutes and go rather than waiting for a charge for some length of time. It would be closer to the present refueling model.
That model has already been tried and failed. See "Better Place" which attempted such a model in the small countries of Israel and Denmark. And the larger the country the more difficult/expensive the model becomes. See: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-electric-cars-not-equipped-with-easily-removable-batteries?share=1
It means setting up a vast number of stations to replace packs. If you don't have enough stations the cars aren't practical and people don't want them. Car batteries are heavy and expensive. You'd need some kind of station with an expensive robot car bay. And each car model is slightly different. To make the model work, the company has to lease the batteries to owners (an awkward arrangement) and invest in a huge inventory of "spares". So difficult and expensive to do.
And people prefer to just be able to plug in. Much easier for the individual to plan around and more practical.
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The charging model for the Tesla 3 according to owners use is trending to be this.
Home charging from 240V AC which adds about 25 miles per charge hour. This is plenty for any local use.
On road trips, they use the Tesla built in navigator to find Supercharger stations along the way. There are about 15 thousand of them in the USA with more added every day.
For fastest charge, they recommend just to use the Superchargers to add 200+ miles in about 25 minutes, keeping the battery between 20 and 80 percent charged. Of course you can push it out to 300 miles plus where necessary, but bringing it up to 100 percent charged will take another 25 minutes.
Of course the Supercharges are appearing at many motel chains too for overnight charging. Many more have level 2 charges which also are fine for overnight full charges.
The charging issue appears to not be a real issue, and cuts your fuel cost to about 20 percent of cost of gasoline.
Frank
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Hey Frank. We are in California for my 50th high school reunion. We are on the Northern coast in the redwoods at a bed and breakfast. No cell phone service, there is Wifi. Also a Tesla charging station right at the base of a Redwood. Took a couple of pics with my phone. When we get somewhere with cell service I'll post them.
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Hey Frank. We are in California for my 50th high school reunion. We are on the Northern coast in the redwoods at a bed and breakfast. No cell phone service, there is Wifi. Also a Tesla charging station right at the base of a Redwood. Took a couple of pics with my phone. When we get somewhere with cell service I'll post them.
With or without charging stations, one of the most beautiful places on earth!
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With or without charging stations, one of the most beautiful places on earth!
Yeah yeah!! That's the truth
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Is that a "destination" reunion?
My son and his fianceé are planning a "destination" wedding; IIRC you have experience with those.
Hey Frank. We are in California for my 50th high school reunion. We are on the Northern coast in the redwoods at a bed and breakfast. No cell phone service, there is Wifi. Also a Tesla charging station right at the base of a Redwood. Took a couple of pics with my phone. When we get somewhere with cell service I'll post them.
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Hey Steve.
No, the reunion is in Lakeport, in the heart of where the Mendocino Complex fire was earlier this summer. Just using the trip to also spend time in some of my favorite places out here.
My daughter did have a destination wedding. I thought it was selfish on their part. Big expenses for everyone attending It was in Mexico so airfare too. And the marriage didn’t take, they’re divorced. She is remarried to the right guy this time. It was a civil service at the courthouse.
Next time I’ll tell you what I really think 😎
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I agree as to selfishness of destination weddings. I have refused to go to 2 of them recently. If they want the guests to spend a couple of grand to attend, they should pay that for the guest.
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For what it is worth.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/08/tesla-model-3-has-lowest-probability-of-injury-out-of-all-cars-tested.html
Watch the short movie clip comparing the front crash tests of a Model 3 to an Audi A3. Interesting.
Frank
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This happened last week:
A Sleeping Tesla Driver Highlights Autopilot's Biggest Flaw
LINK (https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-sleeping-driver-dui-arrest-autopilot/?CNDID=30803929&CNDID=30803929&bxid=MjU4MDI4MDU1MzYxS0&hasha=23d8d7239bc3e1cef168b7eaeda450a5&hashb=e3c7a7a6129080d89159b51063b67f0b910c8b85&mbid=nl_120418_daily_list1_p1&utm_brand=wired&utm_mailing=WIRED%20NL%20120418%20(1)&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nl)
"Last week, when a couple of California Highway Patrol officers spotted a man apparently sleeping in the driver’s seat of a Tesla Model S going 70 mph down Highway 101 in Palo Alto around 3:30 am, they moved behind the car and turned on their siren and lights. When the driver didn’t respond, the cops went beyond their standard playbook...."
Be careful out there Frank.
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I read the article and went :o at the information the Tesla would stop and put on warning lights after a certain elapsed time with no driver input. Stop where?
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The headline should have read, "Tesla Autopilot saves passed out drunk driver from crashing and injuring himself and others."
Or would would it be better to just let the drunk driver crash (as he would of in any other car)?
If the Tesla detects no hand on the steering wheel while in autopilot mode, it firsts beeps and flashes to get driver's attention, and if no response pulls over and stops. I suspect drunk driver in this case had hand on steering wheel, defeating the safety feature. A future software upgrade will deal with this, letting car's computer observe the driver's defective behavior and do something about it.
Frank
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Cool car Frank. Love the whole concept of Elec. However puzzled as to why the batteries do not recharge themselves on all makes and models. Loving my alternator on the old gas guzzling beast but not paying for gas and producing CO2.
charles
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.
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The Teslas all do have regenerating brakes. Let up on the power pedal and the motors instantly turn to generators, changing momentum back into battery energy. Brake pads last for 100,00 miles or better because they need be used so little. The amount of regenerative brake power can be adjusted for climate and road conditions. This capability, along with very sophisticated traction and skid control makes the car very stable under slippery road conditions.
No, you can't fully charge the battery while driving because perpetual motion machines have yet to be invented.
Frank
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Just saw this thread. I love my dual motor AWD Model 3 here in Denver area (owned it for about a month). I've been using the supercharger at the mall (10 min away and free for 6 months) and also plug it in at home nightly (110ac for now; I own the 220 wall charger but electrician hasn't installed yet). Even the audio is great (mainly due to quieter ride and nice USB flash drive media player). The instantaneous torque is quite exhilarating. :)
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Ummm ... I believe the word is “sumbitch”. I was all prepared to send in my deposit but now I have to seriously reconsider. Tesla is stealing your private data, I mean your telematics. I’m sure they won’t sell it to “business partners” like insurance companies. And keep those hands on the wheel!
https://www.axios.com/newsletters/axios-am-1fc1c6b6-d593-4d23-bfed-0d0862681cd9.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top
WHAT TESLA KNOWS ABOUT YOU
“Every mile, every block, every inch of pavement driven by a Tesla vehicle generates a trove of information that can reveal as much about you as about your car, Axios autonomous vehicles correspondent Joann Muller writes from Detroit:
Why it matters: Tesla is more of a tech company than a car company. And because data is critical to self-driving cars, it has designed its vehicles from the outset to be sophisticated rolling computers.
As all cars get smarter and more automated, the data they collect will unlock new conveniences for drivers — but also rob them of privacy.
Most modern vehicles have a cellular wifi connection that transmits basic telematics data from the car to the cloud.
The data could include your vehicle's location and your personal settings, such as contacts you've synced from your phone, addresses you've plugged into the navigation system and even your favorite radio stations.
Automakers use that information to suggest pre-emptive maintenance, or to offer remote help such as unlocking doors or roadside assistance.
Carmakers often share that information with business partners who provide services like navigation or real-time traffic.
But Tesla collects more information than most.
It knows your speed, your mileage and where and when you charge the battery.
It monitors airbag deployments, braking and acceleration, which helps in accident investigations.
And it knows when Autopilot, Tesla's assisted-driving feature, is engaged or disengaged, and whether you have your hands on the wheel as you should.
Teslas are constantly in record mode, using cameras and other sensors to log every detail about what they encounter while driving, even when Autopilot is turned off.
This includes short video clips from the car's external cameras to learn how to recognize lane lines, street signs and traffic light positions.
Tesla says the video snippets are not linked to the car's vehicle identification number, and there is no way to search its database for clips associated with a specific car.
But with 500,000 vehicles on the road globally, information collected by one vehicle can easily be shared with others.
This "fleet learning" capability is an advantage that Tesla CEO Elon Musk says will help the company develop self-driving cars faster.
Tesla uses data from its vehicles to crowdsource advanced technology features like high-precision maps and improvements to Autopilot.
What you can do:
You can contact Tesla to stop sharing basic data, but that could affect your car's operation, prevent software updates and disable some features, Tesla says.
You can also opt out of sharing location-related data, including video clips.
But bystanders whose images are captured by Tesla's cameras don't have any ability to opt out.
Tesla says its customers' privacy is of the highest importance to the company. It recently joined a host of American companies and government agencies to help define a new international standard for consumer privacy.”
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The world is getting too complicated!!! :green:
Gene
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This is nothing new and no reason not to buy a Tesla. If you own a cell phone, every move you make is being tracked.
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Tesla is going through a "corporate hiccup" right now regarding pricing, model availability, sales rooms, and delivery times in a rather unprofessional way.
I am going to wait until the dust settles before seriously considering one. Although they brought back the long range rear motor version which was previously discontinued with an increased range to 325 miles and a bit lower price. This is the version I have my eye on.
It would be nice if they actually started building the missing parts of their planned supercharger network in Minnesota and North Dakota and maybe even the one in Cody, Wyoming. Without that supercharger, there is no way to get across Yellowstone Park without finding a slow camp ground charger somewhere along the way.
Frank
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Shucks, I traveled to Europe last fall for a month - Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Austria. The level of monitoring and cameras on every corner. I still am getting tickets for unknowingly driving on pedestrian streets. Waze was good for helping with photo cameras. They are everywhere. They track your velocity by average travel time between two points with auto licence place recognition. Time on to and off toll roads and photo cameras. Pretty soon there will be tracking on all cars themselves and any infraction anytime will be tagged and fined regardless of driver. I joke that we need to even the playing field and place tracking devices on every police car and have an app that gives their location in real time. They do this on us without warrant.
Car computer data is being used for accident assessment and criminally charging drivers for negligence.
My point is, unless you have a pre 1996 built car, there is some type of way of tracking you.
Here in Portland Oregon you have roaming vans that take assessment of any infraction with photo and fine. So I invested in all my cars - Radenso front and rear radar and ALP (Anti Laser Priority) three front and three rear laser jammers with 1 high output diode in each direction. Regardless of race, your likeliness of seeing your family after being pulled over is statistically reduced significantly.
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You have a valid point - superchargers are not all that. They often are in dis-array, vandalized, dysfunctional or on a high demand electric day the electric company will limit current to the supercharger stations, leaving you significantly delayed. If you use a supercharger use a free one. Two to each and if someone uses the second you loose 25% current and they only get that 25%.
Minnesota to Pacific NW, I end up going through Colorado due to lack of northern infrastructure.
Being a long time Tesla Owner and having traveled across country there are benefits and disadvantages. I recommend using destination chargers - hotels that accommodate electric vehicles. Super chargers are often in desirable locations - good stores, restaurants, bathrooms. Unlike fast food/truck stops/rest stops. Full charge gives me enough time to eat, use the bathroom, walk around with little inconvenience. Also prevents me from speeding since the loss of efficiency is penalized in charging time. Western Red states where the speed limit is 85 PMH and most traveling 95 mph or more, I find myself in the slow lane.
I have never traveled long distances in the winter but expect 30% drop in battery efficiency.
I find the 3 much better than the S for enjoyment of driving. The standard stereo in the Performance is far superior to the premium sound system of the S.
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While I do think e-cars reduction of environmental impact vs ICE is overstated, I'd love to buy a used Chevy Bolt at some point...
For those considering a Tesla I'd look at used e-car values and do more research, imo a used Bolt is the best way to go unless you want a larger and more luxurious car, but that of course uses more resources... those with a Model S/X with a long range battery are absolutely not "saving the planet" or anything close to that, and Elon himself will not say that is it's main goal, as it's not. They are primarily toys. In the JRE podcast he says they are primarily for enjoyment. IMO, it is possible that having a high end e-car like Tesla to shape public perception of e-cars as something "cool" may be their largest contribution to the world.
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I thought the Chevy model is called Volt. No?
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I thought the Chevy model is called Volt. No?
Yes and no:
https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev-electric-car
https://www.chevrolet.com/previous-year/volt-plug-in-hybrid
Confusing, isn't it?
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Volt is now discontinued I believe but terrible marketing volt/bolt.
Both my wife and I drive Bolts. Great car.
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I've had Audi's and BMW's for the last 35 years, also bought Toyota and Fords as second cars for wife/kids. I had a Tesla Model S on extended demo a few years ago and loved it, couldn't justify buying it because of the low annual mileage I cover (5k -6k) so bought a BMW M235xi.
I test drove the Tesla Performance Model 3 a few weeks ago, crazy acceleration that's up their with super car performance, it was so much fun I bit the bullet and was going to place an order. Before doing so I then tested the Long Range Model 3 a few days later, it was as fast as my M235 on paper but more practical in execution, so finished up buying one and love it, the Performance version is more power than I needed. It's not just the immediate acceleration from 0-60, at moderate highway speeds the acceleration latency is minimal when compared to a dinosaur fossil fueled equivalent - you don't have to wait for the gears to drop down and the revs to build up, it just takes off. I traded my BMW, which was no slouch but designed to cackle and pop like a race car, which gave the cops advanced notice that I was heading towards them and 'nailing it'. The Tesla is silent and in 'stealth mode' in comparison, so less conspicuous in execution :D In addition the handling is amazing, all the weight from the batteries on the floor pan gives the feeling that you're driving on rail tracks.
The other difference is the traditional auto makers started their EV builds on the basis of experience on designing internal combustion engines, they just transferred this experience and knowledge. Tesla approached car building from the perspective of a technology business, consequently their vehicles have useful and practical features that traditional audio makers don't have.
So, I get where Frank's coming from - you really have to drive one to get it. Any criticism is purely speculation until you have. So, go for it Frank and get rid of the Audi before the timing belt needs replacing!
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Volt is now discontinued I believe but terrible marketing volt/bolt.
Both my wife and I drive Bolts. Great car.
GM's new plant is only for their new Chevy electric. Hiring/transferring about 800 workers. 2021 availability I believe.
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I visited the Tesla show room again yesterday.
Still just snooping, but main reason was to confirm that my tired old legs would let me get in and out of the Model 3 gracefully. Newer Audi models won't work for me - - their door openings are too short. The Model 3 was a success, plenty of room for me to enter and exit with no drama.
I am still thinking about a rear drive long range model. New things I learned. Tesla just increased the power and range of this model by 5 percent with a new over the air software upgrade. Nice! The self driving software now recognizes signal lights.
As an Audi owner I appreciate excellent fit and finish automobile workmanship. I found no issues with any of the Model 3 units I saw at the show room, either inside or on their lot. Paint, panel fit, and trim were all just fine. The horror stories about bad workmanship on Teslas is just old news FUD.
I may pull the trigger the end of May, Model 3 long range, rear drive, black metallic paint, no other options. I will wait for a download of a free trial of the Autopilot and self drive software for spending more on that now. Might be important down the road when they want to take my car keys away from me.
Frank
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We just bought a T3 beginning of December. The quality of the car is tremendous. Not one initial quality complaint. It works great and a complete pleasure to drive. Our model is the long range, dual motor. The overnight charging in the garage has also worked out well.
Boris
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Tesla To Benefit From Bill Expanding Federal Electric Vehicles Tax Credits
“A bipartisan group of lawmakers Wednesday said they intend to introduce a bill to expand federal tax credits for buyers of EVs in a huge boost for the growing EV market. The bill will also extend the hydrogen fuel cell credit through 2028.
The “Driving America Forward Act” (DAFA) will grant each EV maker a $7,000 tax credit for an additional 400,000 vehicles
https://www.ibtimes.com/tesla-benefit-bill-expanding-federal-electric-vehicles-tax-credits-2784777
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Model 3 is the best selling car in Switzerland.
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Model 3 is the best selling car in Switzerland.
That statistic is actually "the best selling recent vehicle launch." It remains to be seen how it stands in sales volume as time passes. The number one selling car model in Switzerland in 2018 is Skoda Octavia, then VW's Tiguan and Golf. The Tesla model 3 is in 13th place for 2018 total sales volume.
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“The best keeps getting better.”
“This week, one of those improvements was to deliver a few Easter eggs — as promised by CEO Elon Musk — including the ability to make a Tesla vehicle fart on demand or every time a turn signal is used.”
In contrast, a “romance mode”, a fireplace with burning logs that displays on the monitor as the car heats up.
I went to a local EV car meet-up yesterday, in the snow, and checked out three Tesla models ... VERY impressive. I’ll probably buy the 3 model - in the 55k range with AWD - but I’ll have to pass on the two more expensive models, the S and the X at $96,000 and $110,000.
Farts come free. The driver can direct them to passenger seats, whoopie cushion style. The owner of the S said his kids can’t wait to get friends in the car.
https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/19/listen-to-a-tesla-make-6-farting-noises-on-demand/
Sent from my iPad
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I've had my Model 3 Long Range AWD for 4 months now, had a couple of road trips and a few observations. Prior to Tesla I've had Audi/BMW's for the last 30 years plus, I got tired of the BMW brand - the engine noise was pumped through the stereo and I had to buy the GPS map upgrade from BMW and have the local dealership install it (this just shows how they're behind the times and gouging customers).
The Positives:
The biggest surprise, apart from the crazy acceleration and roadholding, is noise fatigue - on long journeys I didn't appreciate how tiring the constant drone from an ICE was. The Teslas is so quiet that long journeys are far more relaxing and the premium stereo is crystal clear.
I've had 4 over the air software upgrades that have improved performance and added/improved functions - Pet Mode, Sentry Mode, improved acceleration...
Service intervals - brake fluid flush every 2 years, battery coolant flush every 4 years. If you have a service need outside of the regular maintenance the options are to go to the nearest Tesla store or have a Tesla Ranger come to your house or work.
I changed my driving style to compensate for regeneration, after learning how to modulate the accelerator pedal I now rarely use the brake pedal apart from coming to a final stop.
With a 220v outlet I can charge at 30 miles of range per hour of charge, more than adequate for local driving needs.
With Superchargers I can get 500 miles per hour of charge, a 700 mile trip cost $20 for the Superchargers.
You get a lot of performance for little money, the model 3 I have isn't the performance version but equivalent to or beats performance ICE's. The Tesla performance models give you super car performance for a fraction of the cost.
The negatives:
Seats don't give the same side support as BMW sports seats - I slide around when cornering hard.
Constant price changes - since I bought it the price has changed at least 3 times as options are changed and bundled together or features eliminated or offered as cost add ons.
Autopilot isn't there yet - slows down behind slow moving traffic on the highway instead of passing, too polite at busy interchangers when it needs to be more assertive (it will see a gap, indicate but when someone accelerates to take the gap it backs off).
Accident repairs - small shunts can be very expensive and can have long repear times. The bumpers have all the cameras and LIDAR which are costly to fix, forum users complain of up to 3-4 month repair times.
Tire wear - I'm used to getting 12k miles on performance cars, Tesla owners coming from Honda/Toyota/Ford etc...are shocked when they can't get 35k from a set of tires. Tesla's are heavy and fast, you can't expect tire longevity if you use the performance they have.
For me the positives outweigh the negatives, it's not in away a perfect car but for my driving style its significantly better than any other car I've had. The major difference is Tesla are a technology business and approach car design totally differently from a traditional car producer - the car I bought has already been improved through software updates and it's cost me nothing, this wouldn't have been the case with a BMW (and other manufacturers). Everyone who's driven it, or been a passenger, has wanted to get one - once you've been for a test drive you've got to have one, they're totally different to ICE and just more fun...I've got a neighbor who's a retired Delta and F15 pilot, he wants one and claims it's more fun than an F15 (linear acceleration from the Tesla is the kicker). If anyone is considering a Tesla I'm happy to answer any ownership questions...
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Philistine Nice post,does the range go way down in a traffic jam stop and go like an ice car.
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Thank you for the very informative post of your experience! How does insurance compare to an Audio or BMW?
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Philistine Nice post,does the range go way down in a traffic jam stop and go like an ice car.
In traffic the range is only negatively impacted by the AC or heating being on, the AC is very efficient and they advise to use the heated seats in the winter more than heating the interior as it's more efficient. The biggest hit on the range is using Sentry Mode - I left mine at the airport last week and lost 22 miles a day, next time I'll hook up to a charger in the airport lot or shut it down if I'm away for an extended period.
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A friend just got a 3... Dual motor AWD performance, 0-60 in 3.2s. I drove it, it's very impressive, especially acceleration under ~60 mph! The suspension isn't as good as some dedicated sports cars, but provides a great balance of compliance and support for aggressive driving. GM's meteriorohological damping suspension systems used on their Caddies and sports cars is far superior, but few will care or notice at all... for what it is, it's very well done.
IMO it is the ultimate town-car and commuter car, you get any level of acceleration any time without noise or tire squeal, the Michelin Pilot Sport tires in 235/20 are excellent tires and provide massive grip for the car. On the highway and from stop lights you'll never have to worry about getting around traffic to make a turn or accelerating to merge.
Very cool car...
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Thank you for the very informative post of your experience! How does insurance compare to an Audio or BMW?
I had a BMW M235x and the insurance is slightly less...
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One of my customers brought over his performance Model 3 and I test drove it. Very impressive acceleration and much quieter than I expected. Nice ride quality. I thought I would hate the screen on the dash, but it's okay. I like the roominess of my S, but the 3 is an excellent choice for city driving and parking. Anyone that is thinking seriously, I can give them a link for free unlimited supercharging.
Steve N.
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A friend just got a 3... Dual motor AWD performance, 0-60 in 3.2s. I drove it, it's very impressive, especially acceleration under ~60 mph! The suspension isn't as good as some dedicated sports cars, but provides a great balance of compliance and support for aggressive driving. GM's meteriorohological damping suspension systems used on their Caddies and sports cars is far superior, but few will care or notice at all... for what it is, it's very well done.
IMO it is the ultimate town-car and commuter car, you get any level of acceleration any time without noise or tire squeal, the Michelin Pilot Sport tires in 235/20 are excellent tires and provide massive grip for the car. On the highway and from stop lights you'll never have to worry about getting around traffic to make a turn or accelerating to merge.
Very cool car...
My local ICE dealership handles BMW, Audi & Porsche - they didn't see Tesla as a threat but now do, my local Tesla dealerships rear parking lot is full of traded BMW's, My lowly standard Model 3 has the same 0-60 time as the BMW i8 and the i3 is an embarrassment to be seen driving (what were they thinking of), the Performance versions -0-60 time is in Audi R8, Ferrari and Lambo territory! While BMW are getting their act together Tesla are working on the next generation Model S and X, launching the Y next year, Roadster plus a truck. The semi has an unladen 0-60 of 5 seconds and 20 seconds fully loaded, along with a range that meets 90% of daily truck mileages. I'm not an Elon Musk fanboy but he's certainly been a welcome disrupter in the stagnating auto industry....
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My local ICE dealership handles BMW, Audi & Porsche - they didn't see Tesla as a threat but now do, my local Tesla dealerships rear parking lot is full of traded BMW's, My lowly standard Model 3 has the same 0-60 time as the BMW i8 and the i3 is an embarrassment to be seen driving (what were they thinking of), the Performance versions -0-60 time is in Audi R8, Ferrari and Lambo territory! While BMW are getting their act together Tesla are working on the next generation Model S and X, launching the Y next year, Roadster plus a truck. The semi has an unladen 0-60 of 5 seconds and 20 seconds fully loaded, along with a range that meets 90% of daily truck mileages. I'm not an Elon Musk fanboy but he's certainly been a welcome disrupter in the stagnating auto industry....
Honestly, I'd take a BMW i3 or Chevy Bolt over a Tesla 3. The T3 is a very cool car but it's overkill for what it is, basically the resources it takes to make a T3 could be used to make 2 other EVs that work just fine with half the battery and one motor. There is significant environmental impact to motor and battery production and imo using double the required motor and battery results in a car that no longer has any sort of environmental cred.
The other reason is the Tesla isn't a good sports car. It doesn't have the suspension and driving dynamics of a sports car, nor can it handle a beating on the track.
I'd take a smaller, less costly and less powerful EV for a daily driver or commuter (if I didn't work from home and live within biking distance of everything I need) along with an ICE-powered real sports car.
IMO Elon's biggest contribution is making EVs cool, not for making EVs that are practical and environmentally friendly. But I can see the appeal and if you love driving a Tesla then buy one. They are very cool. :)
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i3 is an embarrassment to be seen driving
Hey, now, you're going to give my i3 a complex!
The real problem with the i3 is the gangster doors. What were they thinking?!
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Honestly, I'd take a BMW i3 or Chevy Bolt over a Tesla 3. The T3 is a very cool car but it's overkill for what it is, basically the resources it takes to make a T3 could be used to make 2 other EVs that work just fine with half the battery and one motor. There is significant environmental impact to motor and battery production and imo using double the required motor and battery results in a car that no longer has any sort of environmental cred.
The other reason is the Tesla isn't a good sports car. It doesn't have the suspension and driving dynamics of a sports car, nor can it handle a beating on the track.
I'd take a smaller, less costly and less powerful EV for a daily driver or commuter (if I didn't work from home and live within biking distance of everything I need) along with an ICE-powered real sports car.
IMO Elon's biggest contribution is making EVs cool, not for making EVs that are practical and environmentally friendly. But I can see the appeal and if you love driving a Tesla then buy one. They are very cool. :)
I think Elon is on the right track. There are different environmental impacts. The things that are damaging the entire planet and an existential threat to all living things are CO2 and Methane, not rare-earth metals and Lithium.
Just say no to ICE.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195372)
Steve N.
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If I could afford a Tesla 3 today, I'd buy one..
:thumb: :popcorn:
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^
+1!
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^
+2!
And I’d cover the roof of my home with Tesla’s Invisible Solar Cells! 8)
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More focus should be placed on hybrids. Proven technology with existing infrastructure ( gas station on every corner)
All electric cars are just not ready for prime time. Technology may be there but not infrastructure. Recharge time would also need to be drastically shortened
If we can increase hybrid sales up significantly, we should be in good shape until all electric vehicles are feasible.
2% is pathetic but one can see why when shopping you'll find the hybrid version more expensive than the all gas version
I'm averaging 58mpg with my Prius :D
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195376)
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If I could afford a Tesla 3 today, I'd buy one..
:thumb: :popcorn:
You can't afford $25K? This is what a demo model 3 costs.
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More focus should be placed on hybrids. Proven technology with existing infrastructure ( gas station on every corner)
All electric cars are just not ready for prime time. Technology may be there but not infrastructure. Recharge time would also need to be drastically shortened
If we can increase hybrid sales up significantly, we should be in good shape until all electric vehicles are feasible.
2% is pathetic but one can see why when shopping you'll find the hybrid version more expensive than the all gas version
I'm averaging 58mpg with my Prius :D
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195376)
Gas on every corner? How about an outlet in every garage. This is a no-brainer. The electricity in the garage can even be from solar panels that charge a Power Wall. No cost at all.
Superchargers are only used when I go on vacation, and they are available every 100 miles.
Charging time is a non-issue for commuters because you charge at night. On vacation, you get 300-400 miles per hour charge rate at Superchargers. You need to get out and stretch or eat every 150 miles anyway. Vacation is no time to be in a hurry.
Teslas get almost 100 miles per gallon equivalent depending on electricity rates and driving conditions.
There is no reason not to consider a Tesla. Hybrids still pollute and add to Global Warming.
Steve N.
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I see the price as starting at 35 grand . So loaded 40 grand ?
I assume the are charging station on the Pa. turnpike at every rest stop?
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I see the price as starting at 35 grand . So loaded 40 grand ?
I assume the are charging station on the Pa. turnpike at every rest stop?
Maybe it's time to revisit the Tesla once the lease on my Prius ends
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/tesla/model-3
Just a note, the 'superchargers" Steve N speaks of are for Tesla cars only
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1121919_tesla-model-3-gets-supercharging-v3-first-how-about-75-miles-of-range-in-5-minutes
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I see the price as starting at 35 grand . So loaded 40 grand ?
According to Clean Technica (https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23/tesla-model-3-average-selling-price-asp-59300-surveys-find/)
"The big deal in the resulting figures is that the analysis has the Model 3 average selling price (ASP) at more than $59,000. That’s a hefty chunk of change, far more than the eventual $35,000 base price, and even buoyantly more than the $42,000 ASP that Tesla CEO & Chairman Elon Musk previously said he expected the Model 3 to settle on."
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According to Clean Technica (https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23/tesla-model-3-average-selling-price-asp-59300-surveys-find/)
"The big deal in the resulting figures is that the analysis has the Model 3 average selling price (ASP) at more than $59,000. That’s a hefty chunk of change, far more than the eventual $35,000 base price, and even buoyantly more than the $42,000 ASP that Tesla CEO & Chairman Elon Musk previously said he expected the Model 3 to settle on."
a check with local dealer inventory have models in the 53k range
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I see the price as starting at 35 grand . So loaded 40 grand ?
I assume the are charging station on the Pa. turnpike at every rest stop?
Superchargers are typically located at Sheetz in the area, but not exclusively, here's an interactive map:
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger
Tesla Superchargers are 'interactive' you get a live update on the number of charging stations and how many of these are occupied/available. Here's a recent live screenshot:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195388)
I haven't travelled east on the PA Turnpike but have travelled on the Ohio Turnpike, they're currently installing generic chargers.
In addition to Superchargers you can use regular chargers also (with an adapter), Superchargers are exclusively for Tesla and use a proprietary charging plug that reads your VIN number and connects to your online Tesla account. Because of the crazy high charging rates they don't recommend using Superchargers as the only charging process as this can negatively impact on the battery life - Model 3 batteries are guaranteed for 7 years/120k miles. As Steve mentioned, the norm is to charge overnight at home and they recommend charging to 80 - 90% capacity for battery health and battery regenerating capability (you miss out on free energy if the batteries full). A latest software upgrade pre-heated the batteries when on route to a Supercharger on order to have the batteries conditioned to accepting optimum charging rates,
In addition to the expiring Federal State tax there's a PA AFV (Alternative Fuel Vehicle) rebate of $1750 if your invoice price is below $60k.
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Gas on every corner? How about an outlet in every garage. This is a no-brainer. The electricity in the garage can even be from solar panels that charge a Power Wall. No cost at all.
Superchargers are only used when I go on vacation, and they are available every 100 miles.
Charging time is a non-issue for commuters because you charge at night. On vacation, you get 300-400 miles per hour charge rate at Superchargers. You need to get out and stretch or eat every 150 miles anyway. Vacation is no time to be in a hurry.
Teslas get almost 100 miles per gallon equivalent depending on electricity rates and driving conditions.
There is no reason not to consider a Tesla. Hybrids still pollute and add to Global Warming.
Steve N.
Just to play the devil's advocate for a moment, I'd suggest that an electric vehicle isn't quite as environmentally righteous as some suppose. It's been noted that because of the greater carbon emissions required to produce an electric car, they are only about 20% less carbon polluting over the lifetime of the vehicle. (20% is a significant improvement certainly.) I just point that out because I've met more than a few electric car owners who think the carbon differential is greater. Here's a link to details if interested. Yes I know the Guardian is very left of center. I linked to that particular studies referral to allay suspicions that only right of center climate change deniers would publish such a thing. :lol:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2017/dec/25/how-green-are-electric-cars
As to Steve's point about Superchargers availability every 100 miles, that's only true in certain areas and transportation corridors. I looked at Tesla's map last week and was noted how Superchargers are limited to Interstate corridors in parts of the southern US. In large swaths of the American west, it's a similar story. I imagine availability will continue to improve as electric vehicles become more common. To some degree, the availability of Superchargers is a map of affluence in the US.
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Just to play the devil's advocate for a moment, I'd suggest that an electric vehicle isn't quite as environmentally righteous as some suppose. It's been noted that because of the greater carbon emissions required to produce an electric car, they are only about 20% less carbon polluting over the lifetime of the vehicle. (20% is a significant improvement certainly.) I just point that out because I've met more than a few electric car owners who think the carbon differential is greater. Here's a link to details if interested. Yes I know the Guardian is very left of center. I linked to that particular studies referral to allay suspicions that only right of center climate change deniers would publish such a thing. :lol:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2017/dec/25/how-green-are-electric-cars
As to Steve's point about Superchargers availability every 100 miles, that's only true in certain areas and transportation corridors. I looked at Tesla's map last week and was noted how Superchargers are limited to Interstate corridors in parts of the southern US. In large swaths of the American west, it's a similar story. I imagine availability will continue to improve as electric vehicles become more common. To some degree, the availability of Superchargers is a map of affluence in the US.
Thanks for sharing that, it's one of the few reports I've seen that includes all of the energy supply chain. There's a multitude of Tesla forums and most owners confess that saving the planet isn't the principal motivation for buying one, it's the fun/performance/technology benefits - taking the forthcoming Roadster as an example: it outperforms the Bugatti Veyron (acceleration, range) at a price of $250k vs $3million respectively. If you trickle this down to other models similar comparisons with equivalent ICE's also exist.
The best option, from an environmental perspective, is solar. My house will need a new roof in the next few years and I've done the following rough calculations to install solar tiles (based on Tesla Power estimates):
Solar Tiles (60%) Regular Tiles (40%) - $85k
Tesla Power Wall (Battery) - $10k
Total Installation Cost - $95k
Cost Savings - Tax Credit $21k, Energy generated (30 years) $54k
Total Savings - $75k.
TOTAL COST ($95k - $75k) $20k
Cost of regular roof - $20k.
So, for me, the numbers currently don't excite me enough to go solar. The incentive needs to be much higher than this....
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Now, I watch the news three times a day on 4 different networks
May I suggest you cut back on that. I guarantee you'd be a happier, less stressed person.
BTW, Texas has 12 Tesla dealerships :D
Maga hat wearers like electric cars also :lol:
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Now, I watch the news three times a day on 4 different networks
May I suggest you cut back on that. I guarantee you'd be a happier, less stressed person.
BTW, Texas has 12 Tesla dealerships :D
Maga hat wearers like electric cars also :lol:
So why would a baby that is smoking lung-cancer causing addictive cigarettes be cute or funny?
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So why would a baby that is smoking lung-cancer causing addictive cigarettes be cute or funny?
It's an e-cigarette
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Now, I watch the news three times a day on 4 different networks
May I suggest you cut back on that. I guarantee you'd be a happier, less stressed person.
Yes indeed, it's a fine line between being informed and so oversaturated with media it stresses you out. I remind myself that 150 years ago, it took two weeks for news from Washington to get to California. Now our new cycles are in nano-seconds. I can't watch TV news at all, I prefer reading my news to talking heads.
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It's an e-cigarette
:lol:
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I pulled the trigger this morning and put a deposit down on a new Tesla Model 3.
Its the long range (335 mile) rear wheel drive version, blue, black interior, auto pilot standard. It is the most efficient one available.
Tesla is discontinuing this model and a new 2019 one popped up as available at my local Tesla showroom and I couldn't resist. I should have it within a week after the paperwork dust settles.
First new car for me in nearly 20 years.
Frank
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It's an e-cigarette
Touche' !
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I pulled the trigger this morning and put a deposit down on a new Tesla Model 3.
Its the long range (335 mile) rear wheel drive version, blue, black interior, auto pilot standard. It is the most efficient one available.
Tesla is discontinuing this model and a new 2019 one popped up as available at my local Tesla showroom and I couldn't resist. I should have it within a week after the paperwork dust settles.
First new car for me in nearly 20 years.
Frank
Congrats Frank. Why rwd and not awd? Is awd more expensive?
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The long range rear wheel drive version is more efficient, has longest range, and is $4000 less.
I want the range for doing some long road trips starting as soon as possible (after we get caught up on the still large order backlog here).
It will also be useful here in Minnesota as cold winter weather cuts the range by about 30 percent or thereabouts.
Frank
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I pulled the trigger this morning and put a deposit down on a new Tesla Model 3.
Its the long range (335 mile) rear wheel drive version, blue, black interior, auto pilot standard. It is the most efficient one available.
Tesla is discontinuing this model and a new 2019 one popped up as available at my local Tesla showroom and I couldn't resist. I should have it within a week after the paperwork dust settles.
First new car for me in nearly 20 years.
Frank
Congrats Frank. very nice
Make sure you experiment with recharging power cords.
I hear Cardas makes a nice one. Plugs plated with rhodium over silver. :)
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Congrats Frank. very nice
Make you experiment with recharging power cords.
I hear Cardas makes a nice one. Plugs plated with rhodium over silver. :)
Frank by heart is a hard wired Guy. Enjoy your new wheels Frank. Glad to hear business is VG.
charles
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Frank by heart is a hard wired Guy. Enjoy your new wheels Frank. Glad to hear business is VG.
charles
A 170 mile long cord for his Tesla???? :lol:
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Actually 170 miles of Cardas power cord sounds really nice, except that it would cost a lot more than the Tesla itself.
However, isn't the best recommendation at AC is to use battery power wherever possible, and with the Tesla that is what I will be doing.
Frank
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The long range rear wheel drive version is more efficient, has longest range, and is $4000 less.
I want the range for doing some long road trips starting as soon as possible (after we get caught up on the still large order backlog here).
It will also be useful here in Minnesota as cold winter weather cuts the range by about 30 percent or thereabouts.
Frank
Hi Frank,
I’m in Rochester, NY and I’m in the process of ordering a 3 now. I was all set to get the 3 with awd because the Teslas drivers here ALL say it’s best to pay the extra bucks for awd because of the snow. (We get a little snow here.)
But ... I also make several trips driving to NC each year so now I don’t know if awd is the best choice if the rwd is more efficient and with greater range.
So I guess I have to do more research.
Best,
LesterSleepsIn
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I have been told that just getting a good set of winter tires mounted on wheels for the RWD version works just about as good as normal AWD on slippery roads. Just swap them on for the winter. Costs less than AWD and they would need winter tires anyway. I have been using Bridgestone Blizzaks for years, no problems at all.
Note that LR RWD is ending production right now so jump on one immediately if you can find one.
Frsnk
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195768&size=huge)
The new 2019 TRUCKLA: The world's first Tesla Model 3 pickup truck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R35gWBtLCYg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R35gWBtLCYg)
The Truckla Wired article: https://www.wired.com/story/simone-giertz-tesla-pickup-model-3-truckla/ (https://www.wired.com/story/simone-giertz-tesla-pickup-model-3-truckla/)
(https://media.wired.com/photos/5d0825226874e0865eefb75f/master/w_532,c_limit/Tesla-Truck-Inline2.jpg)
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I have been told that just getting a good set of winter tires mounted on wheels for the RWD version works just about as good as normal AWD on slippery roads. Just swap them on for the winter. Costs less than AWD and they would need winter tires anyway. I have been using Bridgestone Blizzaks for years, no problems at all.
Note that LR RWD is ending production right now so jump on one immediately if you can find one.
Frsnk
I have another set of rims for my snow tires as well. The best rated ones for skinny tires are the Nokian Hakkapeliitta. They wear like iron and make you invincible. Blizzaks are great tires for wider sidewalls, but not so great for the skinny tires. They also wear out real fast on dry roads.
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I have been told that just getting a good set of winter tires mounted on wheels for the RWD version works just about as good as normal AWD on slippery roads. Just swap them on for the winter. Costs less than AWD and they would need winter tires anyway. I have been using Bridgestone Blizzaks for years, no problems at all.
Note that LR RWD is ending production right now so jump on one immediately if you can find one.
Frsnk
As long as your expectations are reasonable snow tires and 2wd can work fine... you just have a lot less forward traction vs awd. Because of this you may not be able to start going up a hill after you stopped, and getting going at stops can be slow. I'd recommend carrying some sand, a shovel and tire chains (whatever modern equivalent fits the car) just in case you're in deep or slushy snow or you get stuck.
Otherwise, I run Michelin Pilot Alpin performance snow tires and they work great on my rwd car. If you'll be driving primarily on snow-covered roads I'd recommend Michelin X-Ice instead. They do better on snow vs Pilot Alpin, but significantly worse on dry pavement. IMO the best choice depends on where you live... here in CO we get snow but the roads are dry a great majority of the time so performance snows make sense vs pure snow tires.
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My thoughts only - we can have differing opinions and debate an important topic. It is expected the threshold of what is considered appropriate is different among any population. As long as we remain respectful of differing opinions, the thread is worth reading.
I have a Tesla and Porsche Macan GTS - my GTS was in for 2 year service and at 14K miles has blow head gasket and seal to transmission necessitating pulling the motor under warranty for engine rebuild. I was told this is common for the 3.0 L engines with small seals.
Maintenance of the Tesla is near zero. My diesel Ford E350 4x4 camper - ridiculous maintenance.
I am all for low wattage systems and the passive heat they provide to my listening room.
Steve Nugent's low carbon footprint is an impressive accomplishment.
-j
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In the Pacific NW - it is near freezing. Hills/mountains with 1/4" or more ice. Studded tires and chains necessary and sometimes with the best of vehicles still un-navigable. AWD Teslas are in the ditches like matchsticks. The high torque of the motors necessitate the best tires on the market but will wear fast for the same reason.
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I took delivery of my Tesla 3 this morning. The blue metallic paint just glows in the sunshine.
Delivery process at the Eden Prairie show room was excellent.
Coming from a 340 HP Audi S6, the Tesla makes it soooo obsolete. There is nothing the Audi could do that the Tesla does not do better, except make more noise.
Mine is the longest range version, 325 miles between charges if needed. Now I need to install a 240V outlet on my garage, although there is a Tesla supercharger only 3 miles from my home.
If you are in this area, you are welcome to stop by for a test ride.
PS: I did not acquire the Tesla because of global cooling or warming or improved operating economy. I got it because it is a blast to drive.
Frank
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Good for you Frank! Have fun. The torque of a Tesla must be a blast.
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Enjoy the ride! We got our T3 last December and it is still as much fun as the day we got it. We also have home charging and find it very convenient. In addition, the premium sound system is amazing!
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No question that the technology is good, BUT, it's still a pain in the rear to drive an electric car a long distance. Until such times that is somehow overcome, don't think it will be the dominant vehicle.
Makes me wonder where the industry stands with fuel cell powered cars. A few years ago, those were all the rage.
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It seems to me that, until charging infrastructure is fully established, a portable gas powered 240V generator could be carried in the trunk on those occasional very long trips or for the rare times you ran out of juice in the middle of nowhere.
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Tesla already has a extensive Supercharger network along the whole US freeway network at about 100 to 150 mile intervals that typically add over 100 miles of range in about 20 minutes. There is even a much larger network of level 2 destination chargers at hotels, campgrounds, many municipal centers and electric companies that charge at the rate of about 20 to 25 miles added per hour, fine to charge overnight while traveling. Many of these are free.
I will put in a 240V outlet in my garage soon and that will provide a full charge every morning.
The only exception is North Dakota, which is an electric black hole. No superchargers there at all but Tesla says that will be fixed later this summer.
A portable gas powered generator will be way too slow, probably run out of gas before adding even 10 miles.
Frank
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It is still a pain to drive long distances with electric cars. Here is a link to an article written about this subject:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/22/business/energy-environment/electric-cars-charging.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/22/business/energy-environment/electric-cars-charging.html)
I still feel fuel cell will be the eventual technology that replaces petrol cars.
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.... or for the rare times you ran out of juice in the middle of nowhere.
That's what AAA Plus is for, $91 a year get free towing up to 100 miles, $119 a year gets you 200 miles.
Although once I was working on a job on the Gray Ranch in New Mexico, about 55 miles South of I-10 through Animas, N.M. at the end of the road, technically in the middle of nowhere and my Jeep Wagoneer had a transmission problem and I though I might have to be towed. AAA said "nope, we don't go there". Quadratrack got me out, I turned the Jeep into a front wheel drive vehicle.
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Can you imagine if we did something like this? https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/12/china-smart-solar-road-ev-charging/
Electric cars would take over from just about everything.
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Can you imagine if we did something like this? https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/12/china-smart-solar-road-ev-charging/
Electric cars would take over from just about everything.
Can you imagine the complexity of a road repair?
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Frank, here are the pics from my response #201 earlier in this thread from last September.
Bed and Breakfast in the Redwoods on Northern Calif coast, no cell service, but they have a charging station:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195963)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195962)
Enjoy the new ride!!
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Can you imagine the complexity of a road repair?
Yeah. I think highway repair is already up to $2M/mi. https://www.artba.org/about/faq/
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Can you imagine if we did something like this? https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/12/china-smart-solar-road-ev-charging/
Electric cars would take over from just about everything.
This is putting the cart before the horse, or the road before the car as it were.
The only way that charging the vehicle from the road would be worthwhile to anyone who actually enjoys driving their car would be some sort of wireless charging system. The impracticality of a system like that with our current state of technology is immense.
Even wirelessly charging a cell phone in 2019 brings a significantly slower charging speed. While that has, and is still, improving year on year, charging a static cell phone battery wirelessly is still a significant challenge, let alone a free moving motor vehicle.
Assuming electric car companies in China manage to get the technology to work correctly and reliably, it wouldn't likely in this day and age, have a positive effect on the battery. 120V connection to a Tesla only nets you 4 miles per hour. I can't imagine wireless charging off a road, while the car is moving, would even be able to manage that much.
Electric calls will take off in a very major way, as soon as battery technology matures significantly. There wont be any reason to own an ICE when a car battery is able to charge from 0-full in 5 to 10 minutes. With all of the research going on, hopefully that is coming very soon.
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Maybe the reason why the audio system in a Tesla 3 sounds so good is because it is completely battery powered. :D
Frank
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My new Tesla Model 3 has 325 miles of battery range right now. I can drive from coast to coast without charging worries.
Right now it is slowly charging in my garage on a normal power outlet at 12 amp 117V and 4 miles per hour added. When I install a 240V line for that it will increase to over 20 miles per hour, enough to have plenty of driving range on an overnight charge.
My local Supercharge station is only 3 miles away from my home and can provide about 100 miles of charge in 15 minutes.
The time for Teslas is now, not some undefined time in the future.
It is a blast to drive!
Frank
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i get 30 miles of range per hour from a 240V line, Superchargers charge at 500 miles of range per hour - this throttles back as the batteries start to heat up. A recent software upgrade preheats the batteries when you're approaching a Supercharging station in order to condition them to charge at maximum rate. A recent 700 mile trip cost $20 in Supercharging fees....
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Frank , does your car drive itself? Can you put in a GPS and go ?
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Din't get in a fender bender with your Tesla. It'll be in the repair shop for a LONG time !!!!
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Congrats Frank!
And Arnold is Back!
Arnold Schwarzenegger Stars in a New Ad Plugging Electric Cars
https://youtu.be/rXodSqMpuUQ (https://youtu.be/rXodSqMpuUQ)
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Congrats Frank!
And Arnold is Back!
Arnold Schwarzenegger Stars in a New Ad Plugging Electric Cars
https://youtu.be/rXodSqMpuUQ (https://youtu.be/rXodSqMpuUQ)
Wow, double cool! :thumb: :thumb:
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...
Assuming electric car companies in China manage to get the technology to work correctly and reliably, it wouldn't likely in this day and age, have a positive effect on the battery. 120V connection to a Tesla only nets you 4 miles per hour. I can't imagine wireless charging off a road, while the car is moving, would even be able to manage that much.
When I'm sitting in traffic going significantly slower than 4mi/h the net effect will be positive I think. As long as the road can charge the car at a rate that prevents the battery from being depleted it should be fine. I don't think it's anywhere near there at this time, sadly.
Then there are things like https://www.momentumdynamics.com/ where maybe instead of parking meters we can have wireless chargers. Going to a "gas station" is such a waste of time. There should be solar powered wireless chargers everywhere I take my car, grocery store, daycare, etc. Constantly charging a little bit so I don't have to spend 1hr at a charger.
I think a mistake a lot of people make is they think EVs have the same operating characteristics as ICE. "PersonA: OMG, I can only go 100mi?" PersonEV:"Well, yeah, if you don't recharge overnight.", PersonA:"I don't have to go to an 'electric station'.?", PersonEV: "Not unless you're on a long trip"
Electric calls will take off in a very major way, as soon as battery technology matures significantly. There wont be any reason to own an ICE when a car battery is able to charge from 0-full in 5 to 10 minutes. With all of the research going on, hopefully that is coming very soon.
Fingers crossed!
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Here's a soon-to-come long range solar-powered assist EV - the Lightyear One. (https://thedriven.io/2019/06/26/lightyear-buzz-worlds-first-long-range-solar-production-car-unveiled/?utm_source=RE+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=e551a3f263-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_06_26_02_44&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_46a1943223-e551a3f263-40181365&fbclid=IwAR1Q1oMNKl4h7Ay_HJDmFnPE0OItkO90zAsCBVBKG1zRf6OapcZehv3D3r4)
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Placed my order this afternoon. Got a call from Tesla that they have one en-route to my area. Have a noon appointment on Sunday for delivery. Tesla is busting @$$ to deliver as many cars by the end of the month. If it makes it here for delivery by Sunday, I'll get the $3750 tax credit plus save $1000 on the black color. :thumb:
-Ron
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Hi Ron, which Model 3 version did you get?
If possible, would you use my referral code: frank44092 Tell your order people about it before taking delivery.
This will get you 1000 miles of free supercharging!
Thanks,
Frank
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Does my new Tesla drive itself?
No, not yet. Bluebot (the name I picked for her) is equipped with all the hardware for complete self driving but the software for this is not ready yet, probably a year or so out.
It does have lots of useful driver aids already.
Standard equipment includes Auto Pilot which does the following, when engaged:
Traffic aware cruise control. This maintains a set speed and in traffic changes the speed to that of the vehicle above. This is very useful in stop and go rush hour traffic as it will just follow the car ahead at the distance you have set into the control section and even stop and start as required.
Blind spot warning. The cameras and sound sensors look to the sides and behind and warn you if you attempt a lane change unsafely.
Lane departure warning. If you drift to the edge of your traffic lane it will warn you and also steer back to the center of your traffic lane. You can override this simple by using the turn signals telling the car you want to change lanes.
Emergency braking. Will do a hard brake if obstacle is detected ahead of you.
If you paid for the (expensive) self driving option now (I did not), then Navigate on Auto Pilot is also available. This allows the car to basically self navigate from where you are to your destination, handling freeway interchanges, picking and manuvering to the appropriate traffic lane, and even recognizing traffic signal lights (but not yet stopping for them). It also self parallel parks and has a summon feature that allows the car to maneuver from its parking place to where you are at the curb all by itself.
These functions are all Beta functions and all the functions require the driver to keep hands on the steering wheel and always be able to quickly override the automatic functions.
If the car detects you don't have hands on steering wheel for a few seconds, it slows done and stops and turns on hazard flashers.
Note that all of the car's functions are continuously updated by free over the air software upgrades. They provide new functions and take care of bugs. Full self driving will be available as an over the air software upgrade too, but that will not be free.
Tesla says full self driving won't be available until the are certain that it safer to use that a good real driver. Right now the Model 3 has the best safety ratings of any vehicle on the road with a fatality rate of about one fourth of that of ICE vehicles. (ICE = internal combustion engine).
I will try to answer any other questions you have about the Tesla.
Frank
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Traffic aware cruise control. This maintains a set speed and in traffic changes the speed to that of the vehicle above. This is very useful in stop and go rush hour traffic as it will just follow the car ahead at the distance you have set into the control section and even stop and start as required.
Blind spot warning. The cameras and sound sensors look to the sides and behind and warn you if you attempt a lane change unsafely.
Lane departure warning. If you drift to the edge of your traffic lane it will warn you and also steer back to the center of your traffic lane. You can override this simple by using the turn signals telling the car you want to change lanes.
Emergency braking. Will do a hard brake if obstacle is detected ahead of you.
If you paid for the (expensive) self driving option now (I did not), then Navigate on Auto Pilot is also available. This allows the car to basically self navigate from where you are to your destination, handling freeway interchanges, picking and manuvering to the appropriate traffic lane, and even recognizing traffic signal lights (but not yet stopping for them). It also self parallel parks and has a summon feature that allows the car to maneuver from its parking place to where you are at the curb all by itself.
These functions are all Beta functions and all the functions require the driver to keep hands on the steering wheel and always be able to quickly override the automatic functions.
If the car detects you don't have hands on steering wheel for a few seconds, it slows done and stops and turns on hazard flashers.
:o :o :o I've been developing software going on 4 decades for several industries, including 2 decades in automotive engineering. And while I greatly admire the Teslas :drool:, IMO, software = bugs. Personally, I'd be scared $#!+less to ride in a car that had so many opportunities for failure resulting in catastrophe. Good luck and be safe.
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Hi Frank,
Sorry, I already used a friends referral code.
I ordered a Model 3 Dual Motor AWD Long Range, Black, Premium interior, standard wheel covers, black interior, and no full self-driving upgrade.
-Ron
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Uhhh, where are the pics!!! :D
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:o :o :o I've been developing software going on 4 decades for several industries, including 2 decades in automotive engineering. And while I greatly admire the Teslas :drool:, IMO, software = bugs. Personally, I'd be scared $#!+less to ride in a car that had so many opportunities for failure resulting in catastrophe. Good luck and be safe.
IMO, Humans have many more "bugs" while driving a car. Tesla's can see 360 degrees and react within a fraction of a second. Humans have monkey brains, have a small scope of vision, are distracted and react pretty slow compared to the autopilot computer. Not to mention fools driving while high or drunk or tired. Self driving cars would reduce death rate and and accidents significantly. Check out online videos of teslas saving them selves from an accident, it might just convince you other wise. Not to mention they are the safest car to drive right now.
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IMO, Humans have many more "bugs" while driving a car. Tesla's can see 360 degrees and react within a fraction of a second. Humans have monkey brains, have a small scope of vision, are distracted and react pretty slow compared to the autopilot computer. Not to mention fools driving while high or drunk or tired. Self driving cars would reduce death rate and and accidents significantly. Check out online videos of teslas saving them selves from an accident, it might just convince you other wise. Not to mention they are the safest car to drive right now.
I always tell people who are scared of flying that you're actually hundreds of times more likely (1/114 vs. 1/9820) to die in a car crash - and that includes small planes which have a higher risk. I would assume that the injury rate is a car is MUCH more.
"But I'm in control of the car." Yeah, but not of the other people passing by or that you pass by all the time.
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I always tell people who are scared of flying that you're actually hundreds of times more likely (1/114 vs. 1/9820) to die in a car crash - and that includes small planes which have a higher risk.
AND in addition to that, back when I first took up skydiving I was told you’re safer jumping out of an airplane with a parachute than staying inside the plane. So if you were comfortable with the risk of coming here in an automobile, the risk of being killed or seriously hurt jumping out of an airplane is nothing in comparison. :lol:
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AND in addition to that, back when I first took up skydiving I was told you’re safer jumping out of an airplane with a parachute than staying inside the plane. So if you were comfortable with the risk of coming here in an automobile, the risk of being killed or seriously hurt jumping out of an airplane is nothing in comparison. :lol:
I believe that. A number of people just died a couple of days ago in a skydiving plane in Hawaii. One of their worst disasters in years.
Statistics mean nothing for automobiles IMO. The real risk depends on what car you are driving, what your location is, how defensively you drive, how fast you drive and do you mess with your cell-phone while driving. I think my risk is very low. Have not had any accidents in 48 years of driving, both in the city and rural areas, except an idiot on her cell-phone rear-ended me while I was stopped at a stoplight. It was the Tesla of course. All fixed and like new now.
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I believe that. A number of people just died a couple of days ago in a skydiving plane in Hawaii. One of their worst disasters in years.
Statistics mean nothing for automobiles IMO. The real risk depends on what car you are driving, what your location is, how defensively you drive, how fast you drive and do you mess with your cell-phone while driving. I think my risk is very low. Have not had any accidents in 48 years of driving, both in the city and rural areas, except an idiot on her cell-phone rear-ended me while I was stopped at a stoplight. It was the Tesla of course. All fixed and like new now.
I once had a debate with a guy on-line saying that he was a good driver because he had driven 3 million miles without a fatality. But here's the rub, you have to drive over 100 million miles without a fatality to be above the average!!!
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A safety expert told me the definition of a good driver many years ago.
A good driver is someone who has not needed to lock and slide his tires to avoid an accident in the past 10 years.
Frank
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A safety expert told me the definition of a good driver many years ago.
A good driver is someone who has not needed to lock and slide his tires to avoid an accident in the past 10 years.
Frank
That would be me. More like 25 years. I drive on the shoulder line on two lane highways and watch all of the oncoming traffic. The fatalities we get here are head-on collisions. I also have very fast reaction time. You need this when you drive a high-performance car like a Tesla.
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Humans have monkey brains
Agree. And all of that software on the car was written, verified, tested, and guaranteed by monkey-brained humans. :|
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So, I took a 150 mile fun drive this morning from Woodbury down to Nelson on the Wisconsin side of the Mississippi River and back on the Minnesota side. I learned a few new things.
How to launch and use the energy graph that shows the energy level the car is using over a user selected distance. Then it makes a reasonable estimate of remaining range assuming this will be how you continue for the trip.
I figured out how to do voice commands to play the music I like. Since the car is very quiet, it is easy to hear just how nice the built in music system is. It has 14 built in speakers for starters, and no brand name on the audio electrics. You can’t even find the audio electronics at all. Everything is done from the touch screen or with voice commands.
I also figured how to make the navigation map always point the direction I am going instead of always just pointing North.
Finally I played a lot with the traffic aware cruise control. It’s kinda nice to just sit about 3 seconds back on a pretty busy 2 lane road and just let the Tesla maintain the pace and safe following distance flawlessly. It did scold me a couple times for getting too close to the lane divider. I don’t mind it flashing at me but I gotta figure out how to turn off the loud chime. Of course hands on steering wheel at all time and pay attention!
So I am becoming more impressed with Bluebot, my smart little personal transportation module, each time I drive her. The future is really here now.
Frank
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Agree. And all of that software on the car was written, verified, tested, and guaranteed by monkey-brained humans. :|
This is true.
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So, I took a 150 mile fun drive this morning from Woodbury down to Nelson on the Wisconsin side of the Mississippi River and back on the Minnesota side. I learned a few new things.
How to launch and use the energy graph that shows the energy level the car is using over a user selected distance. Then it makes a reasonable estimate of remaining range assuming this will be how you continue for the trip.
I figured out how to do voice commands to play the music I like. Since the car is very quiet, it is easy to hear just how nice the built in music system is. It has 14 built in speakers for starters, and no brand name on the audio electrics. You can’t even find the audio electronics at all. Everything is done from the touch screen or with voice commands.
I also figured how to make the navigation map always point the direction I am going instead of always just pointing North.
Finally I played a lot with the traffic aware cruise control. It’s kinda nice to just sit about 3 seconds back on a pretty busy 2 lane road and just let the Tesla maintain the pace and safe following distance flawlessly. It did scold me a couple times for getting too close to the lane divider. I don’t mind it flashing at me but I gotta figure out how to turn off the loud chime. Of course hands on steering wheel at all time and pay attention!
So I am becoming more impressed with Bluebot, my smart little personal transportation module, each time I drive her. The future is really here now.
Frank
If everyone would make the choice you did, we might have a planet to live on in the next 50 years. All it takes is a test drive and they will be hooked. Elon is quirky, but a genius for sure.
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Elon is quirky, but a genius for sure.
Well duh, all of us geniuses are quirky! :lol:
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So I am becoming more impressed with Bluebot, my smart little personal transportation module, each time I drive her.
So, its female, huh? With all that testosterone, I thought it would be male. 'Coarse I guess there are fast women too.
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So was supposed to have a noon appointment today for delivery of my Model 3 in Rockville MD north of D.C. Turns out the delivery truck is running late. Truck was in Nevada on Thursday night, Iowa City, on Friday, then stuck at a rest stop in Indiana yesterday, and as 6:30 PM this evening in the Pittsburg area. Tesla says they are prepared to stay all day until midnight to ensure all vehicles that arrive are delivered before midnight for us to get the $3750 federal tax credit. I think I am going to miss that tax credit if this doesn't happen before midnight tonight.
-Ron
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Picking up now at Tesla 👍
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Hi Ron.
Did you get it in time for the rebate?
Got all it’s controls figured out?
Frank
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Friend of mine was telling me about this new ev called Rivian. I think Ford is involved with them somehow. Maybe Tesla can have some competition
https://youtu.be/QMfxJEfb4lw
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Frank,
Yes, I did get it in time for the tax credit. Got most of the controls all figured out. A guy I work with has had his since November and got me up to speed. Ordered the key fob this morning. Need to get thumb drive for the Dash Cam and Sentry mode.
-Ron
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Do they offer online classes on how to operate the vehicles? Seems like they should .
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The Rivian looks to be well thought out and funded. They didn't spend years promising delivery mext year but quietly went about setting up their company and preparing to produce the vehicle. I have no need or desire for a giant pickup or SUV but they seem to be very popular. I like vehicle and hope that they are very successful.
I've had a Model S for a couple of years (bought used) and really like it. Had a rental gas car last week during a business trip. Yuck. One day I parked, put it in park and walked away, as is usual in a Tesla. When I got back to the car it was still running. Oops.
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65,000 to 70,000 for a freakin flatbed truck??!!
Let’s call that vehicle what it is . A toy for the rich .
When are electric vehicles going to be offered for 18 -28. grand ?
That’s when many people will jump in, I believe. When people see equal prices for moderately priced electric vehicles, then why not make the leap?
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Something I’ve wondered about....
Tesla and others are posting range ratings that are getting more attractive. But then they say for the health of the battery, keep it charged between 30-80%. If one follows this advice, doesn’t it effectively cut the useful range in half?
Am I missing something here?
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Interesting read.
https://economics21.org/inconvenient-realities-new-energy-economy
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Another thing to consider is the battery. To manufacture one battery the CO2 emissions produced is more than 8 years of use of a gasoline vehicle according to a Swedish Gov't study. Very interesting fact to consider when purchasing an Electric car.
charles
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Another thing to consider is the battery. To manufacture one battery the CO2 emissions produced is more than 8 years of use of a gasoline vehicle according to a Swedish Gov't study. Very interesting fact to consider when purchasing an Electric car.
charles
This one is from Germany...
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-21/new-study-shocks-electric-cars-considerably-worse-climate-diesel-cars?fbclid=IwAR2q5A5MorCkzcKfEJ5WrvkGVXrXXDk8dQVmuSmGllxKHztn05rYsUrUT0Q
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Yup, I keep on saying it but it'll take a lot of convincing after all the BS people have been fed.
Tesla in particular are likely FAR worse for the environment, including CO2 emissions, vs a small ICE powered car. On top of that, the batteries and motor's requirements for materials and manufacturing are creating an environmental and social disaster. Google rare earth and cobalt mining and see how good you feel about using these resources. It's like buying a 10,000 smartphones, and some African kid has to carry a few bags of cobalt ore for each one. The scale of rare earth mining in China is incredible, and only getting larger to make more batteries and motors for EVs.
EVs are the future, but that future is dependent on tech that doesn't exist yet. Getting into EVs now has some upsides, as any tech needs to be developed, but large-scale adaption of EV doesn't make sense right now.
And, folks with Teslas need to STOP with their saving the world BS. You're not. It would probably be better for the world if you bought a normal car. I have no issue with Teslas and ownership of Teslas, but just stop pretending it's anything other than a toy that uses just as much, if not more, resources than any other luxury car, sports car, or pickup truck.
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Great discussion and excellent articles.
The public energy discourse in general needs more math and less group think emotion/ attitude.
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And if you believe the BS that's it's also the fastest car, it is in a straight line but it can't hang with a real sports car as far as handling. I do agree the way the Model 3 AWD launches off the line is amazing, it's the fastest accelerating car from a stop I've ever driven... BY FAR.
In the vid below the M2 destroys the 3 around a track, then look at the times posted at the end... a $45k Camaro 1LE smoked it by about 2.5 seconds! If you buy a Tesla because you think it's the best as far as driving dynamics, you may have made the wrong choice there too. Tesla can't come close to Chevy as far as suspension and chassis!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pu9046wX9g
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Another thing to consider is the battery. To manufacture one battery the CO2 emissions produced is more than 8 years of use of a gasoline vehicle according to a Swedish Gov't study. Very interesting fact to consider when purchasing an Electric car.
charles
Not to mention what to do with these batteries at the end of their lives
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-27/where-3-million-electric-vehicle-batteries-will-go-when-they-retire
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Yup, I keep on saying it but it'll take a lot of convincing after all the BS people have been fed.
Tesla in particular are likely FAR worse for the environment, including CO2 emissions, vs a small ICE powered car. On top of that, the batteries and motor's requirements for materials and manufacturing are creating an environmental and social disaster. Google rare earth and cobalt mining and see how good you feel about using these resources. It's like buying a 10,000 smartphones, and some African kid has to carry a few bags of cobalt ore for each one. The scale of rare earth mining in China is incredible, and only getting larger to make more batteries and motors for EVs.
EVs are the future, but that future is dependent on tech that doesn't exist yet. Getting into EVs now has some upsides, as any tech needs to be developed, but large-scale adaption of EV doesn't make sense right now.
And, folks with Teslas need to STOP with their saving the world BS. You're not. It would probably be better for the world if you bought a normal car. I have no issue with Teslas and ownership of Teslas, but just stop pretending it's anything other than a toy that uses just as much, if not more, resources than any other luxury car, sports car, or pickup truck.
100% agreed and I'll add solar panels into the mix too. The end of life issues that surround them are quite staggering and yet not thought about. It's such a farce.
https://theweek.com/articles/831864/recycling-crisis (https://theweek.com/articles/831864/recycling-crisis)
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Something I’ve wondered about....
Tesla and others are posting range ratings that are getting more attractive. But then they say for the health of the battery, keep it charged between 30-80%. If one follows this advice, doesn’t it effectively cut the useful range in half?
Am I missing something here?
Yes, but for local drivers, this is more than enough range. This extends the battery life. On vacation, you charge it fully.
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Another thing to consider is the battery. To manufacture one battery the CO2 emissions produced is more than 8 years of use of a gasoline vehicle according to a Swedish Gov't study. Very interesting fact to consider when purchasing an Electric car.
charles
That assumes the power is coming from fossil-fuel plants. This will change in the future, hopefully near future or we will all perish.
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EVs are the future, but that future is dependent on tech that doesn't exist yet. Getting into EVs now has some upsides, as any tech needs to be developed, but large-scale adaption of EV doesn't make sense right now.
I does if you want your grandchildren to live in a normal world, not a world of constant disasters and wars.
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100% agreed and I'll add solar panels into the mix too. The end of life issues that surround them are quite staggering and yet not thought about. It's such a farce.
https://theweek.com/articles/831864/recycling-crisis (https://theweek.com/articles/831864/recycling-crisis)
How long do you think your battery in your laptop will last? I've had one for more than 15 years and it's still okay. Most people replace their cars within 5 years anyway.
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How long do you think your battery in your laptop will last? I've had one for more than 15 years and it's still okay. Most people replace their cars within 5 years anyway.
What's your point? I'm not trying to save the world with a Tesla. Replacing your Tesla within 5 yrs is MUCH more wasteful than just driving a regular car anyway. The thought that it doesn't take oil to produce anything is where the issue starts. Oil is used for manufacturing every single item in the world regardless of what it is. That's fact.
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Interesting read.
https://economics21.org/inconvenient-realities-new-energy-economy
Did anyone else read the article in the above link?
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Frank,
I'm getting almost 50mph when I charge at home. Make sure you (or your electrician) uses thick wire for 60amp service (pulls 48a) and the right circuit breaker of course. I dial down my 48A (done via console) usually to 36 or 40A but nonetheless at 48A I get darn near 50mph charge, so that handles any traveling I do during the day, even out to the mountains. And I default to auto schedule my charging for after 8am and before dark so as to use my solar panels and not produce demand that my co-op utility might ding me for (something they call load factor adjustment, a freaking tariff/tax on solar users drop in overall use that they hadn't planned on!!). We do same for dryer, dishwasher and any high demand appliance...but it's easy...it's just the two of us. So far so good, a charge of no more than $25/mo (although Colorado has just now gotten its first 90 degree days of the year, so we'll see. High desert nights are cool so ac is off anyway, due to a couple open windows and and an attic-based remote whole house fan).
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What's your point? I'm not trying to save the world with a Tesla. Replacing your Tesla within 5 yrs is MUCH more wasteful than just driving a regular car anyway. The thought that it doesn't take oil to produce anything is where the issue starts. Oil is used for manufacturing every single item in the world regardless of what it is. That's fact.
Even food, there is a direct correlation between food production and oil, to the point they are nearly interchangeable.
If you bike to work (non-ebike, human powered), you can take the extra calorie requirements and determine how much oil was used to get you to work on your bike.
IMO the real issue is a combination of population and tech that isn't advanced enough to handle the population without significantly changing the environment, and a complete lack of tech that would enable us to have some control over the Earth's climate. The drivers of population growth are poverty and religion, we've seen instances where population in developed countries slows or stops when you mostly eliminate poverty and antiquated religious ideas. Now, it's too late as we're headed for at least 11B population, but if we handle these issues we may keep the world's population from growing more than that and even start bringing it down... assuming the Earth's natural processes don't eliminate a huge chunk of human population via disease first, which seems like a very likely scenario.
But yeah... Teslas saving the world? Give me a break! :duh:
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Anyways, we may have already poisoned ourselves with plastic waste, which will be the end of life on Earth with the exception of some single celled organisms, then it'll all start again.
This could easily be the case and concentrating on EVs and CO2 is just a distraction. Who knows... in life as in audio, keeping an open mind is probably a good idea considering how limited human perception and intelligence really is.
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What's your point? I'm not trying to save the world with a Tesla. Replacing your Tesla within 5 yrs is MUCH more wasteful than just driving a regular car anyway. The thought that it doesn't take oil to produce anything is where the issue starts. Oil is used for manufacturing every single item in the world regardless of what it is. That's fact.
Oil is fine for producing products, just not for burning for energy or transportation. That's my point.
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Even food, there is a direct correlation between food production and oil, to the point they are nearly interchangeable.
If you bike to work (non-ebike, human powered), you can take the extra calorie requirements and determine how much oil was used to get you to work on your bike.
IMO the real issue is a combination of population and tech that isn't advanced enough to handle the population without significantly changing the environment, and a complete lack of tech that would enable us to have some control over the Earth's climate. The drivers of population growth are poverty and religion, we've seen instances where population in developed countries slows or stops when you mostly eliminate poverty and antiquated religious ideas. Now, it's too late as we're headed for at least 11B population, but if we handle these issues we may keep the world's population from growing more than that and even start bringing it down... assuming the Earth's natural processes don't eliminate a huge chunk of human population via disease first, which seems like a very likely scenario.
But yeah... Teslas saving the world? Give me a break! :duh:
Agree!
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Oil is fine for producing products, just not for burning for energy or transportation. That's my point.
Do you realize that even when you plug your Tesla into the wall you're still burning oil? :lol:
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Do you realize that even when you plug your Tesla into the wall you're still burning oil? :lol:
Not me!
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I did not buy a Tesla to save the world. I bought it because I deserved to treat myself again after driving the same car for 18 years, because it is the first car I have tested over this time that I like better than my old Audi, because it is a blast to drive, has the highest safety rating, and finally makes driving easier.
You want to save the world? Simple, just go all out to support molten salt Thorium atomic reactors. Wind and solar won’t do the job, do your homework.
Frank
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By the way, because my home only had a 100 amp electrical service, I am only having a 20 amp 240V line installed in my garage. That will give me about 15mph charge. Plenty to keep battery warm in the winter and since I don’t drive every day, adequate for my driving needs too. In a pinch, there is a Tesla supercharger only 3 miles from my home.
Frank
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How much for your home charging station?
How much to Supercharge?
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Not me!
Solar panels in the USA account for < 2% for all electric. Compared to what Asia does, we in the USA aren't going to even move the needle.
Like audio, whatever makes you happy though.
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Did anyone else read the article in the above link?
Guess not. 🤷♂️
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Solar panels in the USA account for < 2% for all electric. Compared to what Asia does, we in the USA aren't going to even move the needle.
Like audio, whatever makes you happy though.
Yes, I agree that at some point in our history the wisdom was that the earth was indeed flat. And horses were the main mode of transportation at one time. And blacksmith was a great job. But I prefer to look forward, where in progressive states the cleaner energy jobs are burgeoning, and where the US can someday say that cleaner energy is a source for a majority of our electricity. In the meantime, I prefer to, yes, make me happy and maybe do my part in history. Ya gotta start somewhere!!
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Guess not. 🤷♂️
I did. It was depressing.
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I did. It was depressing.
Yup.
Plus, the planet's hottest June in history was last month. Things aren't looking so good.
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I did. It was depressing.
The quality of the argument was the most depressing bit. Several points confuse correlation with causation. Some are just random facts, see #7; it just states the fraction of hydrocarbons go towards electricity generation. So what if it takes 100 barrels of oil worth of energy to make a battery that can store one barrels
's worth? Over its lifetime the battery will store and release 500 or more barrels worth. Energy is used in the production of energy related devices seems to be his trivial point. He is right that displacing hydrocarbons is hard. His pessmism is misplaced. Capacity factors for wind, especially offshore, are set to go way up as towers get taller and reach where there is almost always wind. Storage doesn't have to be by battery. There are already several large solar thermal facilities (their big problem, as with windmills, is bird kills). Pumped storage is being used for some wind turbines too. I thought that it was a rather poor article and if I were grading it as a paper for a class it would get a D, mostly for the poor logic. My professor nephew keeps a stash of plots that 'prove' all sorts of impossible causes and effects.
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Quote from: jtwrace on Yesterday at 04:04 pm
Solar panels in the USA account for < 2% for all electric. Compared to what Asia does, we in the USA aren't going to even move the needle.
Like audio, whatever makes you happy though.
Yes, I agree that at some point in our history the wisdom was that the earth was indeed flat. And horses were the main mode of transportation at one time. And blacksmith was a great job. But I prefer to look forward, where in progressive states the cleaner energy jobs are burgeoning, and where the US can someday say that cleaner energy is a source for a majority of our electricity. In the meantime, I prefer to, yes, make me happy and maybe do my part in history. Ya gotta start somewhere!!
Thanks
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The quality of the argument was the most depressing bit. Several points confuse correlation with causation. Some are just random facts, see #7; it just states the fraction of hydrocarbons go towards electricity generation. So what if it takes 100 barrels of oil worth of energy to make a battery that can store one barrels
's worth? Over its lifetime the battery will store and release 500 or more barrels worth. Energy is used in the production of energy related devices seems to be his trivial point. He is right that displacing hydrocarbons is hard. His pessmism is misplaced. Capacity factors for wind, especially offshore, are set to go way up as towers get taller and reach where there is almost always wind. Storage doesn't have to be by battery. There are already several large solar thermal facilities (their big problem, as with windmills, is bird kills). Pumped storage is being used for some wind turbines too. I thought that it was a rather poor article and if I were grading it as a paper for a class it would get a D, mostly for the poor logic. My professor nephew keeps a stash of plots that 'prove' all sorts of impossible causes and effects.
Another thanks
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Yes, I agree that at some point in our history the wisdom was that the earth was indeed flat. And horses were the main mode of transportation at one time. And blacksmith was a great job. But I prefer to look forward, where in progressive states the cleaner energy jobs are burgeoning, and where the US can someday say that cleaner energy is a source for a majority of our electricity. In the meantime, I prefer to, yes, make me happy and maybe do my part in history. Ya gotta start somewhere!!
Except "progressive" states aren't really burgeoning anything worthwhile, or even "clean."
Wind energy is a joke. You need massive amounts of land to create wind farms that produce very little energy respectively.
Solar energy produces massive amounts of waste, which in 15-25 years when all of the panels will need to be sent out to pasture, will cause a huge toxic waste problem.
Some countries that have resorted to burning the old panels to reclaim some of the material used to make them, release massive amounts of toxins in the air during incineration. Toxins also leak out of the panels if they are left in a "dump," and eventually end up contaminating local water sources.
The other issue is that both wind and solar need to be augmented by burning fossil fuels anyway, as there isn't a way to store the energy for times when the sun is not up, and the wind isn't blowing.
If people really wanted to decrease carbon emissions, we would have been utilizing Nuclear Power more heavily throughout the US for the last few decades.
Instead, now we are stuck in a state of limbo, where we have to deploy expensive half measures that are just adding to the problem in different ways.
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Uh, could we please get back on track before this thread gets binned.
Frank, thanks for starting this important, interesting thread.
Frank, Ron, what are your concerns about repairs? What happens if you need to have an under-warranty repair done by Tesla and there’s no Teslas dealership in your area? (My 2016 Mazda cx5 was in the shop 7 times for under-warranty repairs, so stuff happens.)
What happens if you’re involved in an accident? Who does the repairs? Are non-Tesla dealership mechanics competent enough to do Tesla repairs? The online nabobs of negativism would leave you to believe that a fender bender could run into the $1000s; one nihilist of negativity posted that his Tesla fender bender plus new tail light cost him $5,500 with work performed by a local mechanic. Of course we can all believe what we read online.
I’m having my electrician come out next week to talk about about the wall charging box and concerns about the aging wiring in our 106 y/o house.
Thanks again,
Lester
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Do you realize that even when you plug your Tesla into the wall you're still burning oil? :lol:
I'm not either. 97% renewable.
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I have a Tesla 'dealership' about 5 miles away, they prefer to carry out repairs using their Ranger service which has mobile units that come to your house/work. If it's not convenient for you, or the repair can't be performed off site, then it needs to be dropped off with them.
They have a growing list of approved third party body repair shops that can deal with EV's and capable of working with steel/aluminum issues (welding, galvanic isolation). We have a thriving local FB owners group and have our own preferred list of vendors ad experiences. With the cameras and sensors on board a minor 'fender bender' can be expensive, guys in the local owners group haven't had issues with repair costs - the main concern is wait time for parts, it can be days or a few months. Because of the safety benefits, high accident ratings, the downside is that it's relatively easy to have it totaled by insurance due to the crumpling of the safety cage - which is preferable to having your body totaled!
Also agree that the armchair environmental experts start a new thread on saving the planet, rather than pollute this one...
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I was off this weekend to visit my brother in Starbuck, MN. Had a great visit there.
It was a good opportunity to take a shakedown trip with my new Tesla 3. I took mostly rural secondary roads on the way there and mostly I94 freeway home.
I was able to drive lots of secondary roads using the trick Tesla Autosteer capability. That, combined with its adaptive cruise control makes driving really easy and relaxing. It really will steer itself in almost all conditions, around curves, up and down hills, even through small towns. It automatically obeys speed limits (I set it for 5 over). The only thing it won't do is stop for red lites or stop signs. Gotta do that myself, but it hardly ever requires touching the brakes, the regenerative braking slows you down very quickly to an almost stop if you just lift off the go pedal all the way. As long as you keep a hand on the steering wheel firm enough that it knows you are there, you can even take a bit of time to look around at the scenery without needing to worry about running off the road. It won't let that happen Of course if you are not holding the wheel firmly enough it will flash the screen at you and scold you a bit. If you overlook that then it flashes a red screen at you and then chews you out and tells you that you cannot use Autosteer until you stop the car again. It behaves like a rather strict schoolteacher.
Driving home on the freeway was actually much more of a hassle. The traffic was very heavy and moving very fast (everybody coming home from their lake cabins after the long 4th weekend). Bumper to bumper at 80 MPH with both lanes full of cars is not my way of relaxing. Setting the adaptive cruise control to 3 seconds spacing just did not work as everyone just cut in front of me and the Tesla system would then try and back off to get that 3 second space cushion back again to no avail. I did take a break at the Clearwater, MN Tesla Supercharge station. Added 150 miles of range in about 20 minutes. Just enough time to stop at the nearby bakery for a cinnamon roll and a cuppa kauphy.
So first impressions on a reasonable road trip is that the Tesla is an outstanding go anywhere vehicle. Exceeding my expectations.
Frank
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Regarding service and repairs, right now only Tesla service centers are set up to do service work. Of course, with any luck at all, there is absolutely no routine service work needed except to rotate the tires every 10,000 miles and add window washer fluid once in a while. No spark plugs, no belts, no hoses, no mufflers, no oil changes, not much of anything for routine maintenance. Tesla will send a service vehicle to your home if necessary to fix minor issues and provide flat bed towing to a service center for major issues. My Tesla was built in the middle June, 2019 and so far has had zero defects.
Here in the Twin Cities, MN, Tesla has set up several high quality repair body shops with the specialized training and tools to do metal repairs. They have set up electricians to do home 240V charging installations too. My 240V service goes in next week.
I would not trust any none Tesla certified shops to work on the car at this time. They are so completely different from ICE cars.
Frank
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I have used the mobile service twice for recalled air bag replacement, 12v battery replacement, and TPMS battery replacement, all under warranty. Could have gotten a loaner if so desired. Very nice not having to drive to a service location, get a lift home or a loaner, and then return to service center again.
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I initially bought USB flash drives for the Tesla Cam/Sentry Mode recordings, but 'upgraded' to a Samsung 0.5TB SSD - less than $90. Amazing how inexpensive storage has become, and it's so compact it fits neatly on the floor of the storage area.
There's an 'illegal' left turn into my neighborhood that puts the idiots on the wrong side of the road, I've had so many near miss head on collisions over the years. Using the Tesla Cam mode they now get posted and shamed on the neighborhood, the side benefit is that it's reduced the number of dangerous illegal turns being made...
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I had a software glitch in mine and replaced a part that actually ended up being software related. Tesla was incredibly accommodating. They also corrected some other issues that I was unaware of. Portland service department is busy. I like they are direct and no hassles or games. I can not say the same for Sunset Audi/Porsche.
From purchase of an S (later sold for the 3), and the 3 - to service of both vehicles. No complaints. Reliable. Yes there were some minor issues but corrected without hassle.
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I am getting a 240V AC outlet installed in my garage on Tuesday.
It will be like having my own gas station at home, but without the stink of spilled gasoline. :D
Note that the Tesla carefully monitors current draw to eliminate the possibility of causing an overheated power feed. The outlet will have a very heavy duty socket.
I will be out and about this weekend to find a Yelp recommended restaurant out in the boonies somewhere.
Back to building SET 120 amplifiers right now.
Frank
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240V AC installed in my garage yesterday. A pretty painless project. City electrical inspector checked it out this morning and it is good to go.
My new Tesla now charges three times as fast as it did with a simple 120V line. Now I will never leave home without lots of electrons in the tank.
Frank
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I had read about this issue with the Model 3 last week...
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/body-shop-finds-model-3s-gathering-large-amounts-of-dirt-and-sand-due-to-improper-drainag.144746/ (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/body-shop-finds-model-3s-gathering-large-amounts-of-dirt-and-sand-due-to-improper-drainag.144746/)
Given where you live, you may wish to keep an eye on this.
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It will be like having my own gas station at home, but without the stink of spilled gasoline. :D
IDK if your garage is climate-controlled? If it isn't now you can pre-cool/pre-heat the car in the garage with no risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. And still leave the house with a "full tank".
No poisonous fumes of any kind is a big win.
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I did an interesting road trip yesterday with my new Tesla Model 3.
From Woodbury, MN with a stop to supercharge at Rochester, MN and then south into the Amish country of SE Minnesota and also the home of lots of winding hilly scenic roads. I drove from Harmony to Lanesboro through Whalan, Peterson, Rushford, before cutting north on county roads to Winona and then back home up highway 61. About a 300 mile jaunt in all.
I have the now standard TACC and Auto Steer functions my my mid-June production car, but not full self drive. I used these functions as much as possible during this 300 mile Sunday outing.
A lot of the route followed the Root River and wound around miles of curves to stay close to the river through this 100 mile long lovely wooded river valley. A beautiful drive. The river was running full due to the rains the day before and some secondary roads along the route were closed due to flooding,
Anyway, about the Tesla and my experiences with it. I have owned it for only about a month now and this was my first experience on anything except main roads.
First of all i love my Bluebot, my metallic blue long range RWD model. However it does have some driving characteristics worth mentioning,
Although it almost always follows the winding roads just fine, the auto steer does tend to behave like a beginning driver fresh out of drivers training,
Entering curves, it tends to turn in later than I would, and then kind of saws its way around them making several corrections along the way. Not the smooth radius I would attempt to do myself. Not unsafe, and it always stays in its lane, but still it is a beginner at driving on really winding roads. It also gave up with really sharp 20 MPH posted curves saying Help, you do it! I also noticed that with Auto Steer turned off, it would slow a lot approaching some curves, but not all of them, kind of random hiccups. It tends to be late in slowing down for reduced speeds approaching small villages too.
Sometimes it behaves like it was my Granny sitting beside me backseat driving. Even with both TACC and Auto Steer turned off, it sometimes nagged me about approaching the limits of my lane and tried to make steering corrections. Not always, and kind of randomly. Again, never unsafe, just a bit annoying. It really needs to do a bit more learning.
One thing I would wish, and that is if the driver could tell the Tesla to move a bit more to the right in lane following. I always drive to the right side of the traffic lane to leave as much space as possible for oncoming traffic on two way roads. The Tesla just tracks in the center of the lane leaving less “whoops” space than I am really comfortable with. Center of the lane fine for multilane city freeways, not so fine on rural two lane roads.
I don’t think full self driving is ready for prime time yet.
TACC came in handy on the way home as north of Red Wing our half of the four lane freeway was completely blocked by a bad traffic accident. I ended up stopped in bumper to bumper traffic about a mile before the problem. This was a great place to let TACC just creep along by itself until we were routed around the scene on the right shoulder.
Overall a fun trip, no significant issues, and overall Bluebot impressed and made the experience safe and trouble free. Makes me happier than ever for my leap into the future with Tesla.
Frank
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“Even with both TACC and Auto Steer turned off, it sometimes nagged me about approaching the limits of my lane and tried to make steering corrections.”
Frank, by that you mean just a mechanical correction, yes? There wasn’t also a robotic voice alarm warning you to stay in your lane. (?)
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I don’t remember a voice warning, but did get loud beep.
I just got software upgrade 2019.24.4 this morning. It allows turning off edge of lane warning so now allows driving closer to right edge of lane without nags or steering fighting me when all auto driving functions turned off.
Frank
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I don't use Autopilot on switchbacks, but the cruise is great. If a corner is too sharp, it slows the car automatically so you don't pitch.
I drive very defensively, so on two-lane roads I hug the right side white line. I wish the autopilot had an "offset" adjustment that would take you off-center in the lane.
Steve N.
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I don’t remember a voice warning, but did get loud beep.
I just got software upgrade 2019.24.4 this morning. It allows turning off edge of lane warning so now allows driving closer to right edge of lane without nags or steering fighting me when all auto driving functions turned off.
Frank
The vibration warning wouldn’t bother me but the beeping definitely would. Is there a way to turn off the beeping but keep the vibration warning and the auto correction?
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Just saw this in another thread:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=197350)
Could it be backup power, in case there was a mains power outage?
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Wow, diesel powered EV charging station. That sure looks very inefficient.
It is not a Tesla station, and I see a BMW parked at it.
It must be way out in the boonies if there is no electrical service nearby to set up a normal charging station.
Frank
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I did some better research and found out that the "Nullarbor" is a vast area of Australia with very limited resources. Evidently some priviate and government help has provided EV chargers of several types to deal with this.
More details at this link.
https://aussieelectricvehicles.com/our-blogs/electrifying-the-nullarbor
Frank
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Wow, diesel powered EV charging station. That sure looks very inefficient.
It must be way out in the boonies if there is no electrical service nearby to set up a normal charging station.
That image is nothing but a caricature with an agenda made obvious by the attending asinine comment. :thumbdown:
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Wow, diesel powered EV charging station. That sure looks very inefficient.
It is not a Tesla station, and I see a BMW parked at it.
It must be way out in the boonies if there is no electrical service nearby to set up a normal charging station.
Frank
It's like your charging station for your Tesla which burns NG before the power hits the Tesla. :duh:
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It's like your charging station for your Tesla which burns NG before the power hits the Tesla. :duh:
Same old tired argument. Power plants are vastly more efficient at making power then cars powered by ICE. You work in the automobile industry right?
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Same old tired argument. Power plants are vastly more efficient at making power then cars powered by ICE. You work in the automobile industry right?
Nope
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Power plants are vastly more efficient at making power then cars powered by ICE.
Locomotives being a prime example. You would think that’s common knowledge but...
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Just saw this in another thread:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=197350)
HEY GUYS! Stop and go here -
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164569.msg1749886#msg1749886 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164569.msg1749886#msg1749886)
This is Frank's Tesla 3 thread, let's not get it quarantined again. I created the above thread for that very purpose! :lol:
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Well, I am going to find out if the value of the Tesla I bought last month is "real" the last week of August. I will be driving Bluebot, my rear wheel drive long range (325 mile) Model 3 Tesla.
I have a 3600 mile solo road trip planned from Minnesota to Phoenix, Arizona to visit my younger sister.
First leg from Woodbury, MN to Rapid City, SD (four Supercharger stops for about 1 hour total along the way).
Next leg from Rapid City to Trinadad, Co with four more Supercharger stops.
Last leg from Trinidad to Phoenix, not researched much yet, but it is nearly all Interstate freeway.
I am avoiding the high mountain passes until the way home and I have more experience as to just how much those long uphill climbs affects useable range. Of course you put range back in from regenerative braking on the way back down hill.
Mary will be here to keep the business open and Berkeley the cat well fed.
I will let you all know how the trip is going along the way.
Frank
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Much to my surprise I've found a whole set of Tesla chargers about 3mi from my house.
Frank, if you're ever in Allentown you'll be able to charge up no problem.
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HEY GUYS! Stop and go here -
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164569.msg1749886#msg1749886 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164569.msg1749886#msg1749886)
This is Frank's Tesla 3 thread, let's not get it quarantined again. I created the above thread for that very purpose! :lol:
Now there is another definition for insanity.... :scratch:
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Since the Tesla is essentially a computer on wheels, why not hack it?
This Mod Turns a Tesla Into a Mobile 'Surveillance Station'
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-surveillance-detection-scout (https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-surveillance-detection-scout)
"At the Defcon hacker conference today (8/09/2019), security researcher Truman Kain debuted what he calls the Surveillance Detection Scout. The DIY computer fits into the middle console of a Tesla Model S or Model 3, plugs into its dashboard USB port, and turns the car's built-in cameras—the same dash and rearview cameras providing a 360-degree view used for Tesla's Autopilot and Sentry features—into a system that spots, tracks, and stores license plates and faces over time."
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This is not really hacking the Tesla Model 3. It is just taking the normal output from USB port that provides real world access to the build in cameras used for security purposes and using this normal data stream for other purposes.
The internal Tesla hardware and software are considered to be pretty safe.
The Tesla users blog already has posted several video clips showing people hitting parked Teslas or "keying" them and the video evidence has identified them. One of the most interesting was a video of the drunk mayor of a small town backing into a parked Tesla, getting out of his car, looking the damage he had caused, and then driving off.
It is called sentry mode. You can turn it on while the car is parked. It can be on all the time while you drive if you desire and have an adequately large storage device. "Incidents" can be saved. In serious cases, Tesla can provide the pertinent saved information too.
Frank
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Frank,
My Model 3 with Autopilot is on order. Did you get Full Self Driving option? The price of FSD will be going up by $1,000 August 16th but I can add on Full Self Driving now for $6,000, but after August 16th it will be a $7,000 add on.
Other than the FSD ability to recognize and stop for traffic lights and stop signs (and why isn’t that a standard feature of Autopilot?) I’m not seeing the advantages of FSD. I can park my own car thank you. Did you get FSD and if so why?
Best,
Lester
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The price of FSD will be going up by $1,000 August 16th but I can add on Full Self Driving now for $6,000, but after August 16th it will be a $7,000 add on.
Are any hardware upgrades, sensors etc. required or is everything needed already installed and the $6-7K upgrade a software-only upgrade?
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Good question ... I believe it’s both a software upgrade and a new cpu.
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All self drive hardware, including the 3rd series computer is built into any Model 3 made after April, 2019.
Earlier cars will get the newest computer upgrade (they have all other hardware already) when they add full self driving software.
I did not order the full self driving option as it is not ready for prime time yet. I will wait until it released and fully debugged. Not all functions are available now and they all require driver attention.
Note that detecting stop signs and signal lights is a very tricky problem to solve as there are so many special cases.
Traffic aware speed control and auto steering is standard now.
Frank
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Frank, just wanted to say thanks for sharing your experiences with the Model 3!
I'm not quite there on a battery-electric as my sole vehicle, but I'm getting closer. But it could easily be one of two cars in our household.
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Apparently partnering with Tesla for setting up chargers is a thing.
Frank, if you're ever in the area, Wawa is the best. Don't let those Scheetz people tell you otherwise!
https://electrek.co/2019/08/08/tesla-convenience-store-chain-wawa-expanding-supercharger-stations/
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Apparently partnering with Tesla for setting up chargers is a thing.
Frank, if you're ever in the area, Wawa is the best. Don't let those Scheetz people tell you otherwise!
https://electrek.co/2019/08/08/tesla-convenience-store-chain-wawa-expanding-supercharger-stations/
Interesting, Wawa, being a Pa based company I don't see any of their 'Supercharging stations' located in Pa ?
Regardless, I prefer Sheetz 'Dark Sumatra' over anything Wawa !
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Something to watch and consider prior to buying one at this time? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ups3bwFEcE8
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Just get a used or demo Model S. Problem solved. No paint issues, no rusting possible.
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The paint issue is old news. Just more FUD.
It was an occasional problem with some cars built during the big ramp up in production the last half of 2018.
Mine, June 2019 production, is just fine.
I am heading out on a solo 3000 mile road trip the last week of August from Woodbury, MN to Phoenix and back. I will post here along the way about my adventure.
Mary will be here to keep the business under control and Berkeley (my big cat) fed and pampered.
Frank
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The paint issue is old news. Just more FUD.
It was an occasional problem with some cars built during the big ramp up in production the last half of 2018.
Mine, June 2019 production, is just fine.
I am heading out on a solo 3000 mile road trip the last week of August from Woodbury, MN to Phoenix and back. I will post here along the way about my adventure.
Mary will be here to keep the business under control and Berkeley (my big cat) fed and pampered.
Frank
Safe travels, Frank. :thumb:
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I just got home from a nine day 4000 mile road trip in my new Tesla 3 to visit my sister in Phoenix, AZ.
Went out via Rapid City, Trinidad, and Flagstaff. Home thru Blanding, Grand Junction, Vernal, Flaming Gorge, back thru the Black Hills and home.
Absolutely no issues with car, finding electrons, or me. I will do a more detailed report on my adventure soon.
Frank
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I am back from my first long road trip with my new Tesla 3. I did 4000 miles from Woodbury, MN to Phoenix, AZ and back in nine days.
I went out via Badlands National Park, the Black Hills, then south to Trinidad, CO, and west across New Mexico and Arizona to Flagstaff, finally south to Phoenix to visit my sister.
There were plenty of Tesla Superchargers along the way and I was the only Tesla charging at almost all of them. I drove at 85 MPH on most of the freeways, easy with the Tesla and range was fine even with AC on. The auto steering function made driving feel secure and even gave me time to look around at the scenery without having to stay totally focused at staying in my lane 100 percent of the time. The car did that for me unfailingly. You just have to keep a hand on the steering wheel all the time. The car is quick, quiet, stable, and fun and easy to drive all the time.
The sound system is great for a car system. There are 14 speakers and all I had to do is say "play bluegrass" or what ever kind of music I wanted and the Tesla immediately found it.
From Phoenix back home I cut northeast from Flagstaff through Hopi Indian country to see Monument Valley and Arches National Park. The interval from Flagstaff to the next closest Supercharger on this route was at Blanding, Utah and the Tesla GPS system said I would arrive with only 5% remaining charge so I stopped at Tube City, AZ as a hotel there had a level 2 Tesla charger. I charged there for an hour. There was no fee as long as I showed my receipt for lunch at their restaurant to the hotel desk when leaving. This got me to the Blanding Supercharger with no range issues. The Blanding, UT Supercharger was the nicest one I stopped at. It was right at the town's welcome center and museum. The lady at the welcome desk inside even offered free ice water. There were three Tesla 3s charging there at the same time, a red one, a white one, and my blue one. Very patriotic. All American made! :D
From there I drove to the Grand Junction, Colorado Supercharger and north to the Rock Springs, WY Supercharger to visit the Dinosaur excavation site at Vernal, UT and drive across the mountains and through the Flaming Gorge area. This was another push the limits stretch. Thus I stayed overnight in Vernal and topped up at a 240V charger at a near by RV Park.
I note that I never had to use the brakes at all on long mountain downhill stretches. The built in regeneration capacity of the electric motor just used all that excess gravity to recharge the battery a lot for free. I see now why they claim the break pads should last over 100,000 miles. I really never needed to use the brakes hard at all during the trip.
Then it was across the freeway in Wyoming for a ways and angling NE on two lane roads back to Spearfish in the northern Black Hills. I stopped overnight there using the Supercharger in Rapid City and finally home across South Dakota with Supercharger stops in Murdo and Mitchell SD, and finally Worthington, MN and home.
I had absolutely no issues at all with the new Tesla. It ran perfectly and its automation kept me from ever getting tired. The AC was great even in the 105 degree SW heat. Sun overhead with its glass roof was no issue at all, the built in sun block in the glass kept the interior cool just fine.
This was the first long road trip for pleasure only I have made in 20 years and was the easiest one of all thanks to my new Tesla. Its a wonderful road car.
Frank
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Cool Frank. Good to hear you had a great trip, and the logistics worked without issue. Keep us posted as time goes on.
Cheers :thumb:
JD
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Great report Frank. Sounds like a fantastic trip!
Approximately how long are those supercharger stops during the day? Just trying to imagine that compared to ICE gas stops.
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I didn't think you were coming through Moab/Arches NP. We could have had dinner together. (I was most likely working while you came through.) There's also a Tesla charging station at the Best Western here. I should have e-mailed you beforehand.
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Typical charging stops were about 20 minutes at Superchargers. The two stops at slower level two 240 volt charger stops were about an hour at each, just long enough to bridge the gap between normal Superchargers as I mentioned above.
Frank
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Appreciate the insights around a longer trip like this Frank!
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Typical charging stops were about 20 minutes at Superchargers. The two stops at slower level two 240 volt charger stops were about an hour at each, just long enough to bridge the gap between normal Superchargers as I mentioned above.
Frank
Not bad at all!
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My first new car was a 1959 Volkswagen. It cost about $1600. It got 30 miles per gallon back when gasoline was 30 cents per gallon. That means running cost was one cent per mile! It could go about 300 miles on a tank of gas.
However, zero to 60 was about 20 seconds and top speed was 72 miles per hour and safety was, well, don’t crash. I never did while driving 100,000 miles and service was only one valve job, a new set of tires, and routine oil changes and filters.
My probably last new car, 60 years later, is a new Tesla Model 3. It cost about $50,000. It’s running cost is about five cents per mile for electricity and I don’t care what gasoline costs now. It can go 325 miles on a fill up of electrons.
Zero to 60 is about 5 seconds and top speed is 140 miles per hour. It is rated as the safest sedan in the world. With any luck at all it should need no service at all.
So it accelerates five times as fast, has double the top speed and costs only 5 times as much to drive even though gasoline cost is ten times as expensive. It cost ten times as much as a high performance car back then, but my income has gone up by that factor too.
I think it is a better deal.
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The controversy continues...
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-tesla-model-3-safety-nhtsa-2019-8
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Frank, I am glad you enjoy your Tesla. Around here, a Supercharger is the 700- 800 beast from the Chrysler dealer. So, we must drive hillbilly hybrids, to make sure we can get home. Still, electric cars are very attractive. Does this mean you might consider hi-fi, decoupled from the grid? :roll:
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My wife is infinitely picky about cars and it can take years to get her to part with one she gets really attached to.
It's not even that straightforward - she'll vacillate continuously. We'll go through a period of test driving potential candidates repeatedly only for her to decide she likes her existing ride more. Then a few months later the process will repeat.
For me this has been fine as long as there are a few new models to throw into the mix each time. Principle 1 is that buying a car should be fun. The moment it isn't, I walk. Letting sales people know this up front is helpful.
Unfortunately this whole process now gets filed under "Ex-hobbies".
Curse you, Elon Musk. Gasoline vehicles became little more than an anachronistic curiosity overnight. The practicality and versatility of the Model S hatchback makes it every bit as "lifestyle compatible" as any SUV we've owned since we quit exploring heavily rutted desert trails.
For those unwilling to accept the limitations of sedan, check out what you get buying a pre-owned Model S from Tesla.
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My first new car was a 1959 Volkswagen. It cost about $1600. It got 30 miles per gallon back when gasoline was 30 cents per gallon. That means running cost was one cent per mile! It could go about 300 miles on a tank of gas.
However, zero to 60 was about 20 seconds and top speed was 72 miles per hour and safety was, well, don’t crash. I never did while driving 100,000 miles and service was only one valve job, a new set of tires, and routine oil changes and filters.
My probably last new car, 60 years later, is a new Tesla Model 3. It cost about $50,000. It’s running cost is about five cents per mile for electricity and I don’t care what gasoline costs now. It can go 325 miles on a fill up of electrons.
Zero to 60 is about 5 seconds and top speed is 140 miles per hour. It is rated as the safest sedan in the world. With any luck at all it should need no service at all.
So it accelerates five times as fast, has double the top speed and costs only 5 times as much to drive even though gasoline cost is ten times as expensive. It cost ten times as much as a high performance car back then, but my income has gone up by that factor too.
I think it is a better deal.
Using an inflation calculator - the cost of that VW was $14600 and gas was $2.60/gallon in today's prices.
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The controversy continues...
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-tesla-model-3-safety-nhtsa-2019-8 (https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-tesla-model-3-safety-nhtsa-2019-8)
There's no confusion. NHTSA is just telling Tesla not to claim it's the safest car on the road - or safer than other 5 star vehicles.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198406)
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The problem is that the Tesla 3 actually is the safest according to the gummet tests.
The reason for the "one five star fits all" rating for everyone is that the authorities don't want to hurt the feelings of the big auto companies by actually providing useful details of the various cars and models.
Kind of like everyone gets A grades in the liberal arts classes.
Tesla is a disruptor. No money spent on advertising, no use of gasoline or motor oil, no dealers, no high profit repair and maintenance shops, no tooling or purchasing of big complex internal combustion engines or transmissions. Internally designed computers and software, very little outsourced. As this business plan grows, big auto business must complete in kind or die. Right now they are more into obstructing that competing.
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There's no confusion. NHTSA is just telling Tesla not to claim it's the safest car on the road - or safer than other 5 star vehicles.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198406)
Right, no confusion just controversy.
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Some have asked my about charging my Tesla so here is a few thoughts regarding this after my 4000 mile road trip in late August.
in general supercharging is not free. On my recent 4000 road trip from Woodbury, Mn to Phoenix Az and back my total electric bill was about $95.00. Compare that with my previous car, a 2002 Audi S6 Avant that got 20 miles per gallon and premium gas at $3.00 per gallon. That would have cost $600.00.
Some Tesla owners of very early models from 2012 through 2017 were grandfathered in to free supercharging. This perk was discontinued in 2018.
You can also charge at level 2 chargers (much slower) at RV parks, some hotels, and some municipal buildings around the country. Costs will vary. I used these twice on my trip. One at a level 2 dedicated Tesla charger in Tuba City in the middle of the Hopi Indian reservation in the desert southwest. That one was free. A second at a RV park in northern Colorado. That was a flat rate $10.00 charge.
It cost me $600 to have a dedicated 240V AC line installed in my home garage. I charge at the normal electric rate here. A discounted rate from my electric company requires a separate meter for this and the cost to install would be more than what I would ever make up at the lower rate. I hope they change their mind about this requirement in the future, many area do. I really appreciate never having to visit gas stations again and standing out in the cold in the rain or freezing weather waiting for a gas fill up. No worries about cold weather starting too.
The nice thing about home charging is that the car is ready to go anywhere first thing in the morning and I can even turn the heat on in advance from my cellphone so it is toasty warm inside on cold winter days. No risk of carbon monoxide poisoning, no gas engine running.
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My techie 15 year-old son put the model S on our RADAR for a possible future vehicle. So, we checked out the website for it, and I gotta say, I was impressed. Great website, and quite a bit less $ than I thought. This, coming from a guy who never gave EVs any serious thought.
I still worry about battery life (3+ hours north of the twin cities). Most days of the year it is ~10 degrees cooler up here. Great in the summer, but not for the other 9 months of the year :lol: Is anyone aware of cold weather testing/battery life data in harsh (cold) environments?
As battery tech improves (solid state batteries sound like the holy grail/game changer) EVs become an almost no brainer, if not a few (or several) years out.
Glad you are liking yours, Frank!
limits
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I haven't driven a Tesla or even read much about them but my cousin just did a day and a half test drive of a Model 3. He's a car guy (co-owned the first European aftermarket hi performance parts store on Long Island, raced cars, etc.) He currently owns an Audi wagon and a GTI.
He said the Tesla 3 makes driving his other cars feel like they're nice antiques.
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I haven't driven a Tesla or even read much about them but my cousin just did a day and a half test drive of a Model 3. He's a car guy (co-owned the first European aftermarket hi performance parts store on Long Island, raced cars, etc.) He currently owns an Audi wagon and a GTI.
He said the Tesla 3 makes driving his other cars feel like they're nice antiques.
Had a neighbor (rural area, county road) pull out in front of me in a Tesla (not sure which model) fairly closely, so I lifted and started to break...and then the car pretty much disappeared from me in my WRX. Torque, torque, baby :thumb:
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I haven't driven a Tesla or even read much about them but my cousin just did a day and a half test drive of a Model 3. He's a car guy (co-owned the first European aftermarket hi performance parts store on Long Island, raced cars, etc.) He currently owns an Audi wagon and a GTI.
He said the Tesla 3 makes driving his other cars feel like they're nice antiques.
My friend has Model 3 Performance AWD and it is amazing off the line, will beat anything. But after the launch it's about as fast as any other fast car and over 80 mph it's gonna get creamed by most fast ICE cars. As far as handling, it's nice but nowhere close to a real sports car.
He's stuck with joint custody of a child he has to take to/from school 5 days/week and it's a long trip. I recommended the Model 3 to him and so far he loves it. It's safe and reduces the stress of driving so much. But it's not a sports car and can't compete with a real sports car besides accelerating quickly.
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I haven't driven a Tesla or even read much about them but my cousin just did a day and a half test drive of a Model 3. He's a car guy (co-owned the first European aftermarket hi performance parts store on Long Island, raced cars, etc.) He currently owns an Audi wagon and a GTI.
He said the Tesla 3 makes driving his other cars feel like they're nice antiques.
Driving my ICE car is like a horse-and-buggy compared to my Model S.
I drove a performance Model 3 last year. It was really fun. Probably a rear-wheel drive sports car will handle better, but it is only a toy, not practical for every day driving. To have such a high-performance great snow-car for every day driving is pure pleasure.
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Driving my ICE car is like a horse-and-buggy compared to my Model S.
I drove a performance Model 3 last year. It was really fun. Probably a rear-wheel drive sports car will handle better, but it is only a toy, not practical for every day driving. To have such a high-performance great snow-car for every day driving is pure pleasure.
Not necessarily... Throttle House on YouTube tested the Model 3 on their track and it did ok. My car came in at about 1 min 11.5 sec, the Model 3 Performance at about 1 min 15 sec. which is a HUGE difference. My car has back seats and a trunk, is about $15k cheaper vs the M3 Performance... and it's practical enough. A car like a BMW M2 is also far faster overall and quite practical, and near the same price range.
Not saying the Model 3 isn't a great performer for what it is, but I think we get carried away calling ICE cars antiques in comparison, when many are actually much faster and handle far better.
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Love my Tesla Model 3 2019 red Multicoat paint and 19 " wheels :popcorn: the car is a bit noisy compared to my son Leaf 2019.
We got our Son his 1st leaf 3 & 1/2 years ago and in Jan 2019 he swapped it with a 2019 Leaf which gives him approximately 180 mile per charge he is a college going kid he loves his leaf .
I opted to get the Model 3 after debating with myself for nearly 3 years taking plenty of test drives So a deal I got from Tesla if I picked up the car before September 30 was free color upgrade free wheel upgrade and two years of free charging : And So I did ! I love the car and I know from friends and relatives who have being driving the Tesla telling me it is hard to go back to driving an ICE car . Yes some times I think I may get the range anxiety. But my 23 year old who has more the 3.5 years of driving a EV ( we do have Level 2 charging at our house and with Solar panels the cost probably is approximately $ 20 to $ 30 a month extra ) has rarely charged his leaf at the Nissan Supercharger
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199500)
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Not necessarily... Throttle House on YouTube tested the Model 3 on their track and it did ok. My car came in at about 1 min 11.5 sec, the Model 3 Performance at about 1 min 15 sec. which is a HUGE difference. My car has back seats and a trunk, is about $15k cheaper vs the M3 Performance... and it's practical enough. A car like a BMW M2 is also far faster overall and quite practical, and near the same price range.
Not saying the Model 3 isn't a great performer for what it is, but I think we get carried away calling ICE cars antiques in comparison, when many are actually much faster and handle far better.
I've had BMW and Audi's for over 30 years, mainly BMW's, my last being a M235x. I got tired with all the nickel and diming from BMW, the last straw being when they wanted to charge me $250 for a map update plus the dealer charge for installing it, it would have been close to $500. I wanted to test drive the X3 M40i, after a a year of chasing sales guys to fix a test drive I gave up and test drove the Tesla Model 3 and finished up buying it. BMW screwed up my 30 years of loyalty...
In the real world I find the Tesla more practical and fun to drive than the M235...the instantaneous linear power delivery can't be beaten by any ICE, and this makes a huge difference in most practical driving situations. What I didn't expect was that the Tesla is more relaxing on long journeys, I hadn't appreciated the impact that noise has on fatigue. Tesla go out of their way to eliminate noise, whereas BMW pump engine noise into the cabin to make the car appear more sporty :duh: The advantages the M235 had were the superior handling and better seat side support during cornering (when I push the Tesla hard on a corner I slide too much in the seat :o). In the 8 months of ownership I've had multiple OTA software updates from Tesla, adding more user features and increasing the power by 10% - this is contrasted with BMW who want to charge for simple map updates.
Tesla have a totally different approach than traditional ICE manufacturers, Tesla's paradigm is that of a technology business and the 'dinosaurs' are stuck in their ICE paradigm. The ICE manufacturers must have got together and agreed to make EV's as butt ugly as possible, you only have to look at the BMW i3, Nissan Leaf and Chevy Bolt! It's as if they don't want to sell any and they're apologizing. Tesla aren't perfect (over promising and under performing, parts delays to name a few) but they are a refreshing change.
I still have a BMW 330x, but it's not the first driving choice as everyone in the family wants to drive the Tesla. Out of all the cars I've owned Ford/Volvo/Toyota/Audi/BMW the Tesla is by far the best of the group...it's just more fun to drive.
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Musk says that a new free software upgrade coming soon will provide an additional 5 % increase in power and range for all model 3s.
Frank
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This is a most excellent thread. I still own a smog machine, but can't see myself buying another. :thumb:
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There are so many benefits to electric cars:
1) cost of ownership ($/mile) is less than 1/3 of a similar gas car based on average $0.125/KWH electrical rates and $2.99 gallon for gasoline
2) emissions are 37% of the gas car, even when charged from fossil-fuel power plant generated electricity
3) charge in your garage convenience, no need to stop at the gas station or charging station
4) no oil changes, no air filter changes and less overall maintenance
5) much less wear on your brakes due to regenerative braking
6) no stains on your garage floor
7) quiet
8) incredible torque and acceleration
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This is a most excellent thread. I still own a smog machine, but can't see myself buying another. :thumb:
I REALLY want a Tesla. And I need a new (to me) car. Unfortunately (in this regard only), I’m in the process of buying a house, so another loan isn’t in my best interest. I’m buying a car in cash from a family member, then I’ll buy a Tesla when that one’s time comes. Or quite possibly sooner.
I really want a Tesla and need to replace my Highlander. It’s like the girl you’ve always wanted to date, but the timing doesn’t match up.
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Here is my problem with the Tesla the company ! they had promised me a free two year charging if I picked up My model 3 before September 30. ( along with my 2 free upgrades of Choice of Color and the 19 " sports wheel)
It has been 3 weeks & I still have no Free supercharging each time I call they they me it has been escalated to upper middle management , I was also told 3 days ago I was not the only one with this dilemma , I have threatened to return the car by the 30th of October if I don't get my FREE charging luckily I did have the Sales rep. send an email telling me that they owe me free charging, Has anyone else faced this issue with tesla ? :scratch: and now my question is how do I handle this I certainly don't want to return the car
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Here is my problem with the Tesla the company ! they had promised me a free two year charging if I picked up My model 3 before September 30. ( along with my 2 free upgrades of Choice of Color and the 19 " sports wheel)
It has been 3 weeks & I still have no Free supercharging each time I call they they me it has been escalated to upper middle management , I was also told 3 days ago I was not the only one with this dilemma , I have threatened to return the car by the 30th of October if I don't get my FREE charging luckily I did have the Sales rep. send an email telling me that they owe me free charging, Has anyone else faced this issue with tesla ? :scratch: and now my question is how do I handle this I certainly don't want to return the car
No advice other than what I’d do, simply because I’m not in your situation...
Make sure you get 2 years from the start of when it gets resolved rather than from the purchase date. If it takes 3 months to straighten it out, then 2 years should start in 3 months rather than from the day you got the car.
Or you could keep receipts and take legal action if they don’t reimburse you.
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The other Tesla effect - crushing German used car resale values:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2019/10/25/how-the-tesla-effect-is-crushing-used-luxury-car-values/
NB
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Here is my problem with the Tesla the company ! they had promised me a free two year charging if I picked up My model 3 before September 30. ( along with my 2 free upgrades of Choice of Color and the 19 " sports wheel)
It has been 3 weeks & I still have no Free supercharging each time I call they they me it has been escalated to upper middle management , I was also told 3 days ago I was not the only one with this dilemma , I have threatened to return the car by the 30th of October if I don't get my FREE charging luckily I did have the Sales rep. send an email telling me that they owe me free charging, Has anyone else faced this issue with tesla ? :scratch: and now my question is how do I handle this I certainly don't want to return the car
This is my concern about Tesla. A coworker picked a Model 3 a few weeks ago and since then I’ve spend too much time trying to justify how one could fit in my life. I’m absolutely impressed by what they have accomplished in such a short time I am however very apprehensive to make the plunge out of concern that they’ve over promised. Please keep us posted.
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Here is my problem with the Tesla the company ! they had promised me a free two year charging if I picked up My model 3 before September 30. ( along with my 2 free upgrades of Choice of Color and the 19 " sports wheel)
It has been 3 weeks & I still have no Free supercharging each time I call they they me it has been escalated to upper middle management , I was also told 3 days ago I was not the only one with this dilemma , I have threatened to return the car by the 30th of October if I don't get my FREE charging luckily I did have the Sales rep. send an email telling me that they owe me free charging, Has anyone else faced this issue with tesla ? :scratch: and now my question is how do I handle this I certainly don't want to return the car
The problem with Tesla is they can only hire mostly young inexperienced people, not veterans of the car industry. This makes their customer service suck sometimes, not always.
The Model 3 is still a new design, so I don't expect it to completely shake-out for about 2-3 years. I never buy a new year model. I always wait until all of the bugs are resolved. Zero problems with my Model S over 4 years of ownership.
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The other Tesla effect - crushing German used car resale values:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2019/10/25/how-the-tesla-effect-is-crushing-used-luxury-car-values/
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I always thought it was the poor reliability of German cars that crushed their resale values. Honestly, if someone is thinking about getting a used S class or 7 series on the cheap, they need to get their heads examined.
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I always thought it was the poor reliability of German cars that crushed their resale values. Honestly, if someone is thinking about getting a used S class or 7 series on the cheap, they need to get their heads examined.
Why? Some people would prefer to drive the car that they enjoy driving, and deal with the consequences as they arise. And, in fact, in JD's VDS for 2019, 4 out of 10 of the top most reliable cars are German. In the midsize premium car segment BMW, Audi, and Mercedes make up the top three models respectively.
Wouldn't this also include Tesla? How many constant problems are we hearing of from them? Poor QC, terrible reliability of electronics, prolonged body work repair times, worn out flash memory bricking vehicles, spotty paint, noisy interior that third party retailers sell kits to help fix, etc, etc
Would someone buying a Tesla need their heads examined?
Sometimes the joy of owning a vehicle, outshines the problems that may or may not arise.
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This is my concern about Tesla. A coworker picked a Model 3 a few weeks ago and since then I’ve spend too much time trying to justify how one could fit in my life. I’m absolutely impressed by what they have accomplished in such a short time I am however very apprehensive to make the plunge out of concern that they’ve over promised. Please keep us posted.
A friend has the Model S I believe since last 5 years no issues he is very happy with it, ( he has 300,000 on it ) My a son a college going 23 years old is on his 2nd Nissan Leaf on the 1st one he had range anxiety but none on his 2019 model that gives him as much as 181 miles on a single charge , we do have a level 2 charger & solar panels the cost of him driving 70 miles 5 days a week is may be $20 to $30 a month on our electric bill !
I had been debating getting a T M-3 for about 3 years , but finally decided to get it once they offered me 2 free upgrades & 2 year free charging . As far as the quality is concerned it is first class compared to German cars ( IN Germany Tesla is the highest selling electric car ) Engineering & ride are 1st class , Unfortunately you are right about - " They do over promise " Best is to go to the Tesla dealer ship and test drive the car - You will love it plus you do get the option of giving it back in one week or 1000 miles
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...you do get the option of giving it back in one week or 1000 miles...
I wonder how many people do that, apart from those merely taking advantage of a free car rental service?
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Top Gear - Tesla Model 3 Performance, BMW M3, MB C63 S, Alfa Giulia :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR22zBzSjairOr11cX3H9nQO3qZTZdILSe6cYBqeWkpeHbZjRxHfvIi5Q2w
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An AK-47 disguised as a butter knife! :lol:
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I wonder how many people do that, apart from those merely taking advantage of a free car rental service?
Interesting Idea , never thought about that , but you will have to cough up $ 2500 plus you don't know when your car is going to be ready for deliver, at delivery another $ 3k to $ 7K plus if you return the car after week Tesla will not allow you to purchase or lease a car for 12 months . much simpler to lease a car with your credit card :icon_lol:
Asghar
still waiting for my free charging to kick in ! :duh:
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Got my 50 amp 14-50 circuit installed today. Solar panel installation should be complete tomorrow. Then just waiting for the power company to swap out the electric meter and give us the OK for cutover. Exited to go solar power for the model 3!
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Got my 50 amp 14-50 circuit installed today. Solar panel installation should be complete tomorrow. Then just waiting for the power company to swap out the electric meter and give us the OK for cutover. Exited to go solar power for the model 3!
Don't have an EV, but installed 18 PV solar panels 4 years ago (lower Michigan, home of clouds) and, with an incentive program the state put on the utility, have averaged $127/month in revenue. We no longer get electric bills, we get statements. In December/January have reduced bills and for the other 10 months of the year get credits. When the credits exceed $50 they send me money, what a hoot! Panels will payoff in 7.5 years.
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Don't have an EV, but installed 18 PV solar panels 4 years ago (lower Michigan, home of clouds) and, with an incentive program the state put on the utility, have averaged $127/month in revenue. We no longer get electric bills, we get statements. In December/January have reduced bills and for the other 10 months of the year get credits. When the credits exceed $50 they send me money, what a hoot! Panels will payoff in 7.5 years.
:thumb:
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I received the latest OTA update Friday evening: increases power by 5%, adds Hold to stopping mode and Scheduled Charging.
The power increase is noticeable in a car that already has great acceleration, but always welcome. Hold stopping mode allows for one pedal driving, claimed to extend driving range and reduce brake wear, this is going to take a few more days to relearn. I don’t need Scheduled Charging, but it allows you to specify a time that you need the car ready and it will maximize charging (using off peak electricity) plus climate control activation to ensure the cabin temperature is at the set level.
Great to have a car that has better performance and more features than when it was driven new off the Tesla Service Center...
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Check out the new Bloomberg.com Tesla 3 owners survey. They have results from over 5000 owners and over 99% are very satisfied with their Tesla 3.
The survey covers over 160 items from fit and finish through battery life and much more, including what was the owner’s previous car.
It is an interesting read.
I just got another new free software upgrade yesterday that includes a 5% power upgrade (as if it was not enough already) along with the capability to come to a complete stop and hold on regenerating motor power alone. This allows driving without need for the brake pedal at all in most cases and even improved range and even longer brake pad life. It now recognizes temporary traffic cones and barrels and avoids those automatically. More other new goodies in this upgrade too.
My Tesla keeps getting better and better as time goes on.
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I’ve had my M3 since 9/1 and so far I’m very happy with it. I have just taken my first long trip, Rochester, NY to Outer Banks, NC. Fine going down and no problem finding Super Chargers. But here on the coast, there are none so I have a little bit of Range Anxiety but I’m handling it.
My question to Frank and Philistine is how were you alerted to updates? I haven’t been. Is it something that happens automatically from Tesla Central?
Cheers,
Lester
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You should get a notice that an update is available on your screen and also on your cellphone if linked to your Tesla.
Make sure your car talks to your home WiFi network. If all is lost, your local service center should be able to force an upgrade.
Or - - - try this. Tap the preferred key under software upgrade preferences on your touch screen 5 times in a row. Some say this initiates an upgrade.
Other owners here can probably give you better advice
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Do you think the newly unveiled Cybertruck can jump a shark? My God, what a misstep.
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Do you think the newly unveiled Cybertruck can jump a shark? My God, what a misstep.
I think it’s so ugly that it’s actually kinda cool looking. The stainless steel finish was definitely the way to go with it.
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Do you think the newly unveiled Cybertruck can jump a shark? My God, what a misstep.
I though it look great ,glad the designer think outside the box instead copying tradition box pick up truck design. :thumb:
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Main problem I can see is the limited box size and poor-looking access to that box—and no tailgate?
This looks like a profiler's pickup and not very functional, apart from the sliding box cover which does make sense.
I am reminded of the Honda Ridgeline which apparently was (is?) a good vehicle with box size and shape limitations.
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You missed the fact that the tailgate drops down and a three section ramp pulls out. They showed a new electric Tesla ATV actually driving up the ramp into the Cybrtrk bed and parking. Closed the tailgate and then plugged ATV into truck’s 220V outlet to recharge it. Very impressive.
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I like the cyber truck for the most part. The design from the back of the vehicle looks a little weird, but overall it looks cool. I think it will grow on people. That being said the share price dropped about 28 bucks the day after the launch.
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They showed a new electric Tesla ATV actually driving up the ramp into the Cybrtrk bed and parking.
Video starting here: https://youtu.be/464puoD09dM?t=716
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another view of the Tesla turd ...........
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/top-5-jaw-dropping-moments-from-teslas-cybertruck-unveil/
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You missed the fact that the tailgate drops down and a three section ramp pulls out. They showed a new electric Tesla ATV actually driving up the ramp into the Cybrtrk bed and parking. Closed the tailgate and then plugged ATV into truck’s 220V outlet to recharge it. Very impressive.
I hadn't seen the unveil video. Thanks, JohnR. It's actually the opposite of what I thought in a couple of ways. The ramp integral with the tailgate makes some sense, as does the air suspension. That should be standard in pickups, with their widely varying weight at the rear.
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So an impact-proof exoskeleton? What happened to Volvo-style crush zones? :scratch: :duh:
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Once the Cybertrucks hit the road people will want them more. Especially the painted versions.
Its polarizing, but it might just be the furture
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My brother in law put in an order for the Tesla pick up last week.
He also plans to get the Roadster. Not sure which version.
He has the AWD performance 3 now and it’s impressive.
Will report back when they arrive.
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I did a 120 mile trip this past weekend, sixty miles out and back, temperature in the low 20s, mostly freeway at 75 MPH, and heater set at 72 degrees all the way.
Left home with 80 percent charge, plugged back in at home when I returned with a 30 percent charge. A bit of calculation says cold weather and heater always on at highway speed cut range by about 25%. Kinda what I expected.
Frank
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The Tesla roadster has a claimed range of 625 miles.
That’s a game changing range.
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The Tesla roadster has a claimed range of 625 miles.
That’s a game changing range.
I'm looking forward to the game continuing to change.
Imagine fundamental improvements in battery perfomance increasing that range further and/or decreasing battery weight and size, not to mention charge time. Or supercapacitors. Or fuel cells.
John B. Goodenough has made some exciting refinements to the lithium ion cell he was instrumental in designing way back (along with RAM!):
https://www.chemistryworld.com/features/goodenough-rules/8099.article
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I did a 120 mile trip this past weekend, sixty miles out and back, temperature in the low 20s, mostly freeway at 75 MPH, and heater set at 72 degrees all the way.
Left home with 80 percent charge, plugged back in at home when I returned with a 30 percent charge. A bit of calculation says cold weather and heater always on at highway speed cut range by about 25%. Kinda what I expected.
That is remarkable. If I didn't have big destructive dirty dog that goes everywhere with me, the T3 would be very tempting.
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The Tesla roadster has a claimed range of 625 miles.
That’s a game changing range.
It is. Hopefully they start implenting it in other models as an option.
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I'm looking forward to the game continuing to change.
Imagine fundamental improvements in battery perfomance increasing that range further and/or decreasing battery weight and size, not to mention charge time. Or supercapacitors. Or fuel cells.
Tesla is on the game changing path while virtually everyone else stands irresponsibly off on the sidelines.
In any case the T-X has proven that battery weight is a very good thing.
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Tesla is on the game changing path while virtually everyone else stands irresponsibly off on the sidelines.
Really?
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That’s how I see it. Who else is really pushing hard in this direction and what exactly have they contributed?
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That’s how I see it. Who else is really pushing hard in this direction and what exactly have they contributed?
Um, everyone? Audi/Porsche/VW, Ford, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai.... All of these manufactures are actively selling, or developing, EVs.
What exactly has Tesla contributed? They moved sales of EVs from a miniscule fraction to a tiny fraction? They certainly didn't invent the electric car, nor were they even the first to mass market one.
Are they licensing their technology? Are they not building a charging network exclusive to their vehicles? Again, what contributions have they made to the benefit of the auto industry?
They are a business, looking to make money on their product; rightfully. They aren't this altruistic entity moving humanity forward. Why are we pretending they are?
And push hard in the EV direction? What other choice does Tesla have?
I just recently bought an EV. I wanted a SUV for a daily driver having a 70 mile daily commute. I need to be able to get to work rain, hail, sleet, or snow.
I looked at the Tesla Model X and the Audi Etron. Given the faster acceleration and the longer range, I thought the Model X would be the no brainer.
I ended up with the Audi Etron. The overall build quality was significantly better, and the cabin noise was noticeably quieter.
The support is also on an entirely different level. Given Tesla's quality control issues, you would assume they would work harder on advancing their service department.
Instead, service is a mess, and, when your car needs service , you could be completely screwed. Instead of offering loaner vehicles like before, Tesla now resorts to Uber Credits, or tells you to rent something. 80K on a car that is likely to have something malfunction, and I get Uber Credits! Quite the contributors! :duh:
My overall point here is that, just continuously pushing the EV hardware forward at the expense of everything else that makes the whole of a car, doesn't make you "gamechangers." It just makes you really good at one thing, and subpar everywhere else.
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I have a Long Range AWD Model 3, this week Tesla offered an Acceleration Boost 'upgrade' which takes the 0-60 time down from 4.4 secs to 3.9 secs. The dual motor AWD is just a software restricted version of the Performance version with a 0-60 of 3.2 secs, it took about 15mins for the software to reboot and apply the upgrade. Over on the Tesla forums they've found that all the additional power and torque is coming from the front motor - adding about 60HP. This puts the LR AWD Plus version in the same acceleration time as a BMW M3. I had Beemers for over 30 years, and was about to get another, but tired of the nickel and dimeing from them and lazy sales people at my local dealership...if you stop at my local Tesla Service Center the back lot is full of traded Beemers! Rumors are circulating that Tesla are going to launch a Model 3 with a battery switch from 75kWh to 100kWh, with Ludicrous mode this would drop the 0-60 time to 2.5 secs and increase the range to 400 miles!
On a side note the owner of my local Facebook Tesla group has a Model S that has had it's range throttled back, and Supercharger charging rate reduced, in order to protect the battery - views are it's related to fires they had and limit future battery replacement warranty claims. So Tesla isn't without issues!
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I've been driving Toyota Landcruisers for the last 20+ years. Does anyone know if they're making vehicles that get better than 12 miles per gallon yet? :duh:
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Nice Christmas present from Tesla this morning.
Newest software upgrade. It now recognizes signal lights, stop signs, roadside trash containers, and even provides a preview of what full self driving will bring. There is more, new video games, more streaming services, and many more voice commands. Finally a more sophisticated interface with your cellphone.
My Bluebot keeps getting all new over and over again, and I haven’t even tried out the most recent 5% power increase yet.
Merry Christmas to all here at AC.
Frank
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Merry Christmas, Frank!
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Interesting Tesla/Apple comparison, see below. Also, Tesla will start charging a monthly fee for premium connectivity for upgrades. My latest upgrade came through yesterday but I’m still not sure it recognizes stop signs. ( I have an M3.)
https://evannex.com/blogs/news/tesla-services-put-the-company-in-a-different-category-from-legacy-automakers?utm_campaign=Tesla%20Services%20%2F%20Flash%20Sale%20%28LzdcRX%29&utm_medium=email&utm_source=All%20Contacts%20for%20Newsletter%20%28Main%20List%20%2B%20Abandoned%20Carts%29&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICI0Y3gyNTBiQG1pYW1pb2guZWR1IiwgImtsX2NvbXBhbnlfaWQiOiAiZmI0Ym1NIn0%3D
Cheers,
Lester
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Interesting Tesla/Apple comparison, see below. Also, Tesla will start charging a monthly fee for premium connectivity for upgrades. My latest upgrade came through yesterday but I’m still not sure it recognizes stop signs. ( I have an M3.)
https://evannex.com/blogs/news/tesla-services-put-the-company-in-a-different-category-from-legacy-automakers?utm_campaign=Tesla%20Services%20%2F%20Flash%20Sale%20%28LzdcRX%29&utm_medium=email&utm_source=All%20Contacts%20for%20Newsletter%20%28Main%20List%20%2B%20Abandoned%20Carts%29&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICI0Y3gyNTBiQG1pYW1pb2guZWR1IiwgImtsX2NvbXBhbnlfaWQiOiAiZmI0Ym1NIn0%3D
Cheers
Lester
The Premium Connectivity fee is for 'enhanced' services - mapping, entertainment, we will still receive software upgrades over WiFi. From what I understand you need HardWare 3.0 to see Stop signs etc, I have HW2.5 and don't see them - owners who bought FSD will get a 'free' HW update from 2.5 to 3. M3 owners with FSD automatically receive the replacement when they have a service center visit for other issues, the rest of us have to wait for the appointment.
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Tesla always charged for premium connectivity. It used to be $100/yr. Now it will be a monthly charge. New owners get their first year for free. My free premium connectivity ends on June 29, 2020. I personally would rather pay for a full year up front instead of monthly. Maybe they will offer a discount for full payment for one or more years.
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We just bought a new car two weeks ago , my 1997 Camry died and we need capacity for a growing family. We went with a Subaru outback. When my second car dies we will be buying electric for sure. The battery Tech is moving very fast, the battery range is getting very good. If I did not need the Capacity of a wagon I would have went Model 3 for sure . I am seeing a lot of them on the road here in Toronto now.
Disclosure , I am a Tesla Fan boy and share holder.
"The battery Tech is moving very fast" Fast, but not so fast. It will take 3 to 5 years at least untill the carmakers will put the new technology on new cars.
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Actually Galaxy, my Tesla 3 has a 325 mile battery range right now. I charge it at home from a standard 240V outlet and get up every morning with a full “gas tank” and a warm car.
During my 4000 mile road trip last August I used the great Tesla Supercharging network across much of the country without any stress and saved over $500 in gasoline cost.
No maintenance, no engine noise, auto steer and auto cruise makes long cross country trips easy.
No need to wait five years, with Tesla the future is here now.
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I loved the model 3 ($55k with awd and long range and full self driving promise, NO federal rebates, NO discounts) when I test drove it... ended up getting THREE NEW electric vehicles for the price of ONE model 3. the Tesla offer RANGE and AWD that is unparalleled in EVs but here’s how I got around it:
2018 Nissan Leaf $18k after all rebates and discounts- 150mi range(perfect for my 40mi commute) with ProPilot Assist (as close to Tesla’s Autopilot features as you can get without breaking the bank and I felt that the Autopilot is overhyped when I compared it to propilot.) definitely Tesla is a nicer vehicle but...
2017 VW egolf $16k after all rebates and discounts. 125mi range (perfect for wife’s 15 mi commute)
2018 Mitsubishi Outlander PLugin Hybrid EV $23k after rebates and discounts. 25mi EV range and limitless super efficient hybrid system and excellent AWD and the SUV shape and size . My son drives this 6 miles to school and I take it to work if it’s snowing out and we drive it on any longer trips or excursions.
The Teslas offer everything you could want in an EV. By sharing our cars in the family we get everything we want collectively. We have our cake and eat it too! Our whole family can drive Electric 99% of the time and not be limited by range. We charge at nigt $0.02/kWh which means we save $4-5k a year on energy combined. Adding three level 2 chargers cost $2k but I figure that was inevitable if not this year then in 2-3 years... do it now and collect the savings!
I go to the gas station three or four times a year. We had one oil change between us in a year.
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I'm pretty set on a Leaf as an around-town go-cart. Will probably get one a few years old as they depreciate quickly.
The amount of battery and motor in one Tesla M3 could probably power 4 Leafs (Leaves? :)), so it's much more efficient in terms of using resources to manufacture and costs are far lower. 150 mile range is enough for just about anything I need.
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Just got new software upgrade. My Tesla now recognizes and displays stop signs, signal lights, construction cones, trash cans and more.
Much increased vocabulary of voice commands.
Now moves slightly away while passing or being passed by big trucks while in auto steer mode.
It keeps getting better and better.
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Frank, Is there some sort of audio alert for when you’re approaching (or more importantly, running through) a stop sign or traffic light? Or do they just appear as visuals on the monitor screen?
Cheers, Lester
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Tesla is the NFL choice
https://evannex.com/blogs/news/whos-the-nfls-star-in-the-big-game-tesla?utm_campaign=NFL%20stars%20praise%20Tesla%20before%20the%20big%20game%20%2F%20Flash%20Sale%20%28HXMF2b%29&utm_medium=email&utm_source=All%20Contacts%20for%20Newsletter%20%28Main%20List%20%2B%20Abandoned%20Carts%29&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJudWdlbnRAZW1waXJpY2FsYXVkaW8uY29tIiwgImtsX2NvbXBhbnlfaWQiOiAiZmI0Ym1NIn0%3D (https://evannex.com/blogs/news/whos-the-nfls-star-in-the-big-game-tesla?utm_campaign=NFL%20stars%20praise%20Tesla%20before%20the%20big%20game%20%2F%20Flash%20Sale%20%28HXMF2b%29&utm_medium=email&utm_source=All%20Contacts%20for%20Newsletter%20%28Main%20List%20%2B%20Abandoned%20Carts%29&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJudWdlbnRAZW1waXJpY2FsYXVkaW8uY29tIiwgImtsX2NvbXBhbnlfaWQiOiAiZmI0Ym1NIn0%3D)
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Stop signs and signal lights show up on the driving display but my Tesla does not react to them yet. It will show if the lights are green or red. It will avoid trash cans and construction cones.
I have not installed self driving software yet ($7000) so don’t know if cars so equipped do. I think its is still just a visualization display so far. That will probably change soon.
Tesla continues to add functions training the fleet for reliable self driving in the future. How far out, ask Elon.
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Harry Metcalfe just published a review of the Tesla Model 3 on his youtube channel, "Harry's Garage". Although he concludes that he is not interested in buying one, he would wholeheartedly recommend the Model 3 to anyone who is considering purchasing one. Anyone interested in cars and not familiar with "Harry's Garage" should check his channel out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLcCPsnLlaE
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Tire Update:
My M3 came with Michelin MXM4 tires, I suspected that they're the weakest link and couldn't wait to replace them as they seemed to give up during high speed cornering. Recently I noticed they started to lose grip during wet weather, so time for them to go! Just replaced them with Michelin Pilot 4S, a summer performance tire I've used with BMW's and been very happy with - In addition it gets highly rated at Tire Rack and other websites. First impression was a slight increase in road noise, the Tesla MXM4 version has sound deadening foam, but the handling has dramatically improved - it feels much safer and has much better grip on fast corners.
FSD Update:
I paid $7k for this, and wished I hadn't - it's unreliable and unsafe, it's like driving with my ex-wife when she's pissed! Anyone thinking of investing in it I would wait until it's proven before throwing money at it, like all IT projects the promise is it's going to be up and running tomorrow and tomorrow never comes.
One year for ownership:
Still love it, it's quiet, fun to drive, no more gas station visits, Supercharging network is reliable and quick, stereo is amazing (less background noise also helps)....the problem is I'm now spoilt, I can't go back to an ICE ever again!
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Tesla-A 70 year battery?
https://humansarefree.com/2020/09/tesla-is-about-to-unveil-a-million-mile-battery-or-over-70-years-of-driving.html
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Check out EV West's YouTube Channel for all the very cool builds they are doing with Tesla drive components.
https://www.youtube.com/c/EVWest (https://www.youtube.com/c/EVWest)
Saw them on Mike Brewer's World of Cars, here's a short version of the episode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-WpI-W5vqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-WpI-W5vqo)
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Lucid Motors is coming out with an amazing car this spring.
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In case you didn’t know, Tesla is building three new huge factories right now. One in Texas north of Austin, another near Berlin, Germany, and a third Phase 2 huge addition to their already operating one in China.
Amateur drone pilots are documenting all the amazingly fast and enormous process with over flights every day.
Go to utube and search for Tesla Texas, Tesla Berlin, and Tesla China and watch what is happening,
The first China Tesla plant went from a watermelon farm to new Model 3 cars rolling out in less then a year,
By the way, the standard sound system in my Model 3 is pretty amazing too. Just say “play God bless the USA” and instant music.
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Tesla full self driving software goes up $2000 on Monday.
They just released an all new complete rewrite of the software with level 4 full self driving software to a limited number of Tesla owners. This means your Tesla can drive you almost anywhere with minimal driver intervention.
Screen shots and comments from lucky early users show it is all new and day and night better than previously. This motivated me to go ahead and buy the full upgrade before the price goes up again.
You can see clips of its operation on U-Tube by searching for Tesla self driving.
Everyone with the full self driving option (now quite limited) will get the new version before the end of the year. It puts Tesla 5 years ahead again.
Can’t wait!
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Let me know if you notice any difference besides visual in the autopilot. I have EAP but didn't feel the need to upgrade for $5000 since EAP and autopilot were identical. The upgrade to HW3 from 2.5 that's necessary hopefully makes autopilot more stable and predictable. Enjoy your new FSD!!!
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This means your Tesla can drive you almost anywhere with minimal driver intervention.
How about zero driver intervention? I have tried to convince friends to take the 2 hour drive to Phoenix from Tucson to try out the service but no takers so far.
Waymo is opening its fully driverless service to the general public in Phoenix
https://blog.waymo.com/2020/10/waymo-is-opening-its-fully-driverless.html (https://blog.waymo.com/2020/10/waymo-is-opening-its-fully-driverless.html)
"Beginning today, October 8, we’re excited to open up our fully driverless offering to Waymo One riders. Members of the public service can now take friends and family along on their rides and share their experience with the world. We’ll start with those who are already a part of Waymo One and, over the next several weeks, welcome more people directly into the service through our app (available on Google Play and the App Store). In the near term, 100% of our rides will be fully driverless."
Oct. 14, 2020 - JJRicks video of riding in a driverless Waymo, it looks like a science fiction movie.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/waymo-self-driving-van-phoenix-youtube/ (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/waymo-self-driving-van-phoenix-youtube/)
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It looks like GM and others will compete with Tesla pretty soon. The new Escalade is amazing, tech and features makes Tesla seem like an economy car. While it's not an EV, the Hummer e-truck is, and is already sold out it's 1st year of production. GM's driverless tech is likely going to be better too.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faSX3-ObA2A
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The new beta 40.8.1 software upgrade does provide full self driving. As it is level 4, the driver must keep hand on the steering wheel to intervene if necessary. It is designed to take you from here to there in city traffic or on open rural roads with no excuses. Nothing else even close.
It is light years better then version it replaces. It deals with objects in 3D plus time, recognizes and predicts paths of other objects, does not need mapped routes like Wymo.
Several videos posted on U-Tube already of early users in action.
I checked out the giant Caddy infomercial noted above. Large barge stuffed fulla toys but no computer brains, you still gotta herd that beast down the road and buy gasoline. I wonder how much training Caddy mechanics need in able to fix all the stuff inside.
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I bought Autopilot and FSD when I originally bought my Model 3, FSD works great on the highway - the combination's too scary for me on regular roads so hopefully the new re-write will be the step change that's being promised. I've got a neighbor who runs an automotive self driving software team, a huge advantage Tesla have is the neural network and no other manufacturer has anything close to it, and this is just a single significant handicap for other manufacturers. This puts them 5 years ahead of anyone else, so any thoughts about Ford/GM/Chrysler having FSD anytime soon just isn't going to happen.
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Tesla update after 3 years:
Service events - cabin air filter replacement, plus brake caliper lubrication during state inspection (recommended for cold climates due to infrequent use of regular brakes).
The bad - I've now got the Full Self Driving Beta for regular roads and don't use it regularly, it's too dangerous for other road users (phantom braking) and too slow and hesitant in 'complex' road situations. Lack of engine noise makes me focus on road noise (partially addressed on newer models). I don't think the backseats are particularly comfortable. Build quality isn't on par with German cars.
The good - still fun to drive (insanely fast), energy cost much lower (last recharge was $15 compared with $88 for gas equivalent), no issues driving in snow, minimal maintenance.
Charging - the most common comment I get from the skeptical is charging time. The reality is that most of my driving is 'local' so I'm charging at home, each morning I start the day with a 'full' charge. When I road trip, and use the Supercharging network, a charge takes about 20 minutes and the network is prolific. If I average out how much time I spend charging, vs refueling at a gas station, it's a net time saving for me compared with an ICE so I've saved a significant amount of time during the 3 years of ownership . The skeptical typically struggle with this fact as they don't want to accept this as a reality.
We have a Dodge Ram, BMW 330 and Toyota Highlander in the house, the vehicle of choice for everyone in the household is always the Tesla as it's the most fun to drive. Over the years I've always had Volvo, Audi and BMW, so what's next? I received a trade in offer from Tesla and it's just under $1k less than I paid for it, I'm struggling to go back to an ICE so test drove a Model Y and the latest Model 3. I finished up ordering a Model 3 Performance (my current Model 3 is a Long Range AWD), so I'm sacrificing a slight drop in range for improved acceleration and higher top speed (which I don't need) for improved handling and the ability to modify handling characteristics. I believe I paid $5k for FSD and it's now $12k, from my perspective it should be free until it's working properly - so it's off the list this time! This is the first time I've ever bought the same vehicle twice, I'm not a Tesla fanboy but can't find anything that's as much fun to drive and own...Any other owners have an update on their experience?
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My Tesla 3 will be three years old this June.
So far total service cost is $50. This for having Tesla mobile service drop by my home for a tire rotation. Nothing else.
It remains the best and most fun to drive I have ever owned. Also nice to drive right by all the gas stations as I always charge at home.
I scored 98% on their safe driving score so am waiting to get their most recent beta full self driving upgrades download one of these days soon.
Frank
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I’ve not owned a Tesla but the 15 minute joy ride I took in a Model S, back when they were still a novelty, was the most freakin yeehaw fun I’ve ever had on 4 wheels. We got on a back road and the owner told me to punch it from a stand still. Grip n go!
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This is the first time I've ever bought the same vehicle twice, I'm not a Tesla fanboy but can't find anything that's as much fun to drive and own...Any other owners have an update on their experience?
We recently added another Model S for all the same reasons. Our 3 year old has had the cabin air filter replaced and the HVAC system deodorized for $150 and had the 12 volt battery replaced at no cost.
Over the past three years we barely drove our gas car and filling up with gas quickly became a smelly, expensive chore. We had the first and second Teslas in our neighborhood and a neighbor bought the third. I'm most surprised there aren't more but now that gas prices are high I doubt it will be too long before there are.
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We recently added another Model S for all the same reasons. Our 3 year old has had the cabin air filter replaced and the HVAC system deodorized for $150 and had the 12 volt battery replaced at no cost.
.........I'm most surprised there aren't more but now that gas prices are high I doubt it will be too long before there are.
Not everyone's idea of "affordable" is a good reason. :wink:
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I’m sure I’ll get my hand slapped for this.
“Americans get it. Electric cars are now flying out of the showrooms. The biggest wind-energy-producing state in the country is politically red Texas, which generates more electricity from wind than the next three states (Iowa, Oklahoma and Kansas) combined. But making this a true national mission would get us to a clean power economy so much faster.”
How to Defeat Putin and Save the Planet
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/29/opinion/how-to-defeat-putin-and-save-the-planet.html?referringSource=articleShare
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Hi,
I just wish I could afford any electric vehicle. They are just so expensive at the moment in Australia :(
Cheers Rod