AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Vapor Audio => Topic started by: seadogs1 on 21 Aug 2015, 10:57 pm
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Hi Everyone, Don't know how to link so just let me tell you to go to Vapor Audio Facebook to see the latest Joule. IMO the best one yet
then decide for yourself.
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Hi Everyone, Don't know how to link so just let me tell you to go to Vapor Audio Facebook to see the latest Joule. IMO the best one yet
then decide for yourself.
Here ya' go. :thumb:
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/q86/s720x720/11221884_883482088387572_1225165478564216993_n.jpg?oh=c29e664ee9695dda0fd267c4d55b01f1&oe=563D80F6)
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'Perfect' Joule! I look forward to hearing this one.
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'Perfect' Joule! I look forward to hearing this one.
Same crossover, same drivers, different cabinets.
As you can see, we copied the Perfect Storm layout by eliminating the plinth under the bass bin and incorporated it into a chamber along the back wall. The larger footprint of the bass bin required a new upper cabinet to better compliment the sense of scale. It's slightly wider and a few inches deeper than the Cirrus cabinet that was on the previous Joule 2.0. In fact, they are very close in size to the original Joule pedestal mount speakers.
Overall, the pair of cabinets is close to 400 pounds total, an inch and a half wider about 6 inches deeper and 6-7 inches taller than the previous model.
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Same crossover, same drivers, different cabinets.
As you can see, we copied the Perfect Storm layout by eliminating the plinth under the bass bin and incorporated it into a chamber along the back wall. The larger footprint of the bass bin required a new upper cabinet to better compliment the sense of scale. It's slightly wider and a few inches deeper than the Cirrus cabinet that was on the previous Joule 2.0. In fact, they are very close in size to the original Joule pedestal mount speakers.
Overall, the pair of cabinets is close to 400 pounds total, an inch and a half wider about 6 inches deeper and 6-7 inches taller than the previous model.
Thanx for breakdown Pete, appreciate it!
I did'nt even pick up on the new PS like bass bin design. Such a clean look, love it :thumb:
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Why update every few weeks? what about people that buy the speakers only to find out its been improved a week later but pay same price? All thoughts/improvements should be done for a product before releasing to public for retail or else consider a different line. I understand that Vapor Audio speakers are heavily customizable so it's not such a big deal with Vapor but still if the product is different from the base model, and when updated, pricing should be different and explained in detail for upgrade etc with different pricing. Or in this case the Joule, should be called version 2 etc..
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Why update every few weeks? what about people that buy the speakers only to find out its been improved a week later but pay same price? All thoughts/improvements should be done for a product before releasing to public for retail or else consider a different line. I understand that Vapor Audio speakers are heavily customizable so it's not such a big deal with Vapor but still if the product is different from the base model, and when updated, pricing should be different and explained in detail for upgrade etc with different pricing. Or in this case the Joule, should be called version 2 etc..
I will let Vapor comment on their business practices, however, in my opinion it is their business to run the way they wish. I like the fact that they are committed to continual improvement. Despite that, and having gone through the process, I don't see major changes happening every few weeks - in the case of the Joule, major changes have evolved over years.
Product upgrades are a fact of life in any industry. That twinge of longing for the "new model" is much less of a thing with Vapor, as their product is, indeed, custom. The fact that I don't have one of hundreds of identical looking, and even sounding, speakers is appealing to me. Whatever model a customer purchases will be unique.
The last thing I will comment on is price. Vapor is very up front on the base price of their speakers. The price of the Joule was raised to accommodate the version you see above. It would be impossible to list upgrade options for everything, as there are almost limitless choices in some areas. In my case, I suggested some of the modifications - and, in any case, I was charged what Ryan paid for these things.
Bottom line is that I understand the disappointment of watching what you bought get "changed", but I don't think this is as big of a thing as your post implies.
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Product upgrades are a fact of life in any industry. That twinge of longing for the "new model" is much less of a thing with Vapor, as their product is, indeed, custom. The fact that I don't have one of hundreds of identical looking, and even sounding, speakers is appealing to me. Whatever model a customer purchases will be unique.
The last thing I will comment on is price. Vapor is very up front on the base price of their speakers. The price of the Joule was raised to accommodate the version you see above. It would be impossible to list upgrade options for everything, as there are almost limitless choices in some areas. In my case, I suggested some of the modifications - and, in any case, I was charged what Ryan paid for these things.
Bottom line is that I understand the disappointment of watching what you bought get "changed", but I don't think this is as big of a thing as your post implies.
I agree totally. However, that being said, there are many who continually upgrade their speakers and systems. Having a non-current vs. a current model impacts them (and that has nothing to do with Vapor's business practices which are their own business) on the resale market. So for some people it may not be the ideal choice based on that.
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I will let Vapor comment on their business practices, however, in my opinion it is their business to run the way they wish. I like the fact that they are committed to continual improvement. Despite that, and having gone through the process, I don't see major changes happening every few weeks - in the case of the Joule, major changes have evolved over years.
Product upgrades are a fact of life in any industry. That twinge of longing for the "new model" is much less of a thing with Vapor, as their product is, indeed, custom. The fact that I don't have one of hundreds of identical looking, and even sounding, speakers is appealing to me. Whatever model a customer purchases will be unique.
The last thing I will comment on is price. Vapor is very up front on the base price of their speakers. The price of the Joule was raised to accommodate the version you see above. It would be impossible to list upgrade options for everything, as there are almost limitless choices in some areas. In my case, I suggested some of the modifications - and, in any case, I was charged what Ryan paid for these things.
Bottom line is that I understand the disappointment of watching what you bought get "changed", but I don't think this is as big of a thing as your post implies.
I don't own any Vapor speakers, just a potential buyer and have been for awhile. I actually do like Vapors business ethics and how they continue to improve, just thought someone should hint at this very fact. It does effect the buyers remorse and potential buyers from buying products. I know Ryan is an engineer and has many builds going so they might overlook this simple thing but this can potentially bite both the seller and buyer later down the line. (In which it was NOT overlooked as I have come to find out - Topic of thread is questionable rather.) Especially to those who are looking to resale the speakers later down the line for change, i.e from bookshelves to towers and vice versa.
I didn't check the website, if price have been updated then that's complete fine, as it should be. Just sayin' - customer service/satisfaction should take priority as well IMO.
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I love the sound of my Joule whites but I would really no REALLY love to hear these.
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I agree totally. However, that being said, there are many who continually upgrade their speakers and systems. Having a non-current vs. a current model impacts them (and that has nothing to do with Vapor's business practices which are their own business) on the resale market. So for some people it may not be the ideal choice based on that.
Hi, Phil. That is certainly a fair point, and one I admittedly overlook, given that I tend to keep things for long periods. Still, I have to imagine that given the relative value of Vapor's product compared to the wider market, that resale would be good regardless of improvements. Nonetheless, I have no data to support this.
Ryan
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I don't upgrade as often as I used to. I'll generally just rotate things to a second or third system (or fourth or fifth :green:). When I upgrade a Blu-Ray player for example something better will end up in the bedroom system and guest room. Many who have itch to upgrade just want the latest. That's just the nature of the beast.
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God's Joy to all,
I don't post much here, mostly observing. This likely will be my only post for now; I have a lot going on, and I plan on an Owner's Review of the Joule speakers under discussion here. However, for the benefit of those interested, as a reviewer I was drawn to the powerful performance of the Vapor speakers. Ryan and I discussed and agreed upon every aspect of the build out of this speaker. This was more than a year long project in which every aspect of the Joule has been revisited. Ryan and I agreed upon the Verastarr internal cabling after I heard the Perfect Storm at AXPONA, which utilized Verastarr cabling. I pushed for more massive gauge internal cabling, and I believe the team at Vapor agrees it was a good move.
I will look forward to fleshing out the nuances of the "Perfect Joule" in the months ahead. Don't look for the article to appear at Dagogo.com immediately, as I have sizable number of things on my "to do" list, but it will be done eventually. Regarding the constant development of Vapor speakers, I believe that this perfectly dovetails with the custom build philosophy of Vapor, and I do not believe it will unduly hurt resale of the speakers Vapor makes, as their performance and appearance should command a premium.
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Then never buy an Apple product... :lol:
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Amazing! Are these going to be at RMAF?
Really want to hear some of the Vapor floorstanders soon. Is that a painted finish or veneer?
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Same crossover, same drivers, different cabinets.
As you can see, we copied the Perfect Storm layout by eliminating the plinth under the bass bin and incorporated it into a chamber along the back wall. The larger footprint of the bass bin required a new upper cabinet to better compliment the sense of scale. It's slightly wider and a few inches deeper than the Cirrus cabinet that was on the previous Joule 2.0. In fact, they are very close in size to the original Joule pedestal mount speakers.
Overall, the pair of cabinets is close to 400 pounds total, an inch and a half wider about 6 inches deeper and 6-7 inches taller than the previous model.
Pete/Ryan, always glad to see you guys continue the (not really needed) improvement to an already great speaker but I have one question, given that you have moved the plinth (and the crossover) into the main sub cabinet, how to get to the crossover to work on it after everything is completed? I only ask this because due to stupidity on my part (or a friends part actually) I had to open up the crossover to replace a broken speaker connector which I was able to do easily by putting the speaker on its side and un-screwing the plinth. Curious about how that would be done on the new Vapors and Perfect Storms for that matter.
In any case keep up the good work and if either of you ever end up in the beautiful West, come by and see/listen to a previous version of one of your great speakers.
Phil
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126628)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126628)
Love the custom vinyl diffuser panel on the back wall. :D
How long did it take to make that? :green:
Looks great man, what a great room to hear music. Hopefully I'll get to hear some Joules at RMAF.
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Why update every few weeks? what about people that buy the speakers only to find out its been improved a week later but pay same price? All thoughts/improvements should be done for a product before releasing to public for retail or else consider a different line. I understand that Vapor Audio speakers are heavily customizable so it's not such a big deal with Vapor but still if the product is different from the base model, and when updated, pricing should be different and explained in detail for upgrade etc with different pricing. Or in this case the Joule, should be called version 2 etc..
I'll try to answer that. Joule was first introduced as a pedestal mounted 3-way using an 8" woofer using a large version of the Cirrus cabinet. We sold a few pair in that configuration and will still build that version of Joule if anyone wants it. It used the 70-20XR RAAL and the same midrange in the current Joule. That is Joule 1.0.
After we built Nimbus we wanted to carry some of that higher sensitivity performance into the Joule and the only way to do that was to change the build. We introduced the 2 cabinet version of Joule a couple years ago, adding a transmission line behind the 10" woofer. That is Joule 2.0. That version will not be offered going forward.
After building a number of sets in that configuration, we took what we learned and applied it to the Perfect Storm. As you can see with PS, there is no plinth. We created a void in the back wall into which we place the crossover which was in the plinth of the Joule. Access to the crossover is via a large metal plate mounted to the back of the bass bin. Doing it that way offered some real benefits. We liked it enough that we wanted Joule to incorporate it in future builds. That is Joule 3.0.
As Ryan stated in his post, this configuration is highly unlikely to change for the next few years. The approach to the system in its construction has matured. Each build up to this point could be considered prototypes, the research of each funded by those brave souls who decided to journey with us into the realm of ultra high end audio. For those people, we are truly grateful for their patience and steadfastness. The previous version uses the exact same drivers as the current version, as well as the same crossover with the exception of a single cap value changed to accommodate the slight amount of extra tilt applied to the upper cabinet. The main difference between the two is purely aesthetic. Performance differences, if there are any, are very minor.
Every Joule, Cirrus, Nimbus, etc. that we build is a unique build. Veneer, color scheme, crossover parts, all change based on customer preferences chosen during the consultation phase of the project.
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Love the custom vinyl diffuser panel on the back wall. :D
How long did it take to make that? :green:
Looks great man, what a great room to hear music. Hopefully I'll get to hear some Joules at RMAF.
Tommy, the vinyl took 35 years, the cabinets were a trip to Scandinavian Designs, who are out of business now, but similar to IKEA--glad you like it, the records really help tame a live room. I just ordered the first of a batch of sound insulation that will go around room to tame it some more. Of the 4 different speaker systems that i have had in this room, the Joules are the only ones that really excite the room to the point where I need more baffling.
Back to Pete and Ryan, please tell the owner of the new Joules that Seadogs, Speadspectrum, DPatters, me and all the other Joule owners that we welcome him to the fold, and hope that s/he has a much fun with them as we have had with ours.
phil
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Why update every few weeks? what about people that buy the speakers only to find out its been improved a week later but pay same price? All thoughts/improvements should be done for a product before releasing to public for retail or else consider a different line. I understand that Vapor Audio speakers are heavily customizable so it's not such a big deal with Vapor but still if the product is different from the base model, and when updated, pricing should be different and explained in detail for upgrade etc with different pricing. Or in this case the Joule, should be called version 2 etc..
I don't see what Vapor does as a negative in anyway. Rather than worrying about what may be implemented next year, I cherish the fact that I am getting the best speaker they know how to build TODAY. The build doesn't happen over night and if an epiphany hits, they can implement it right in. This is a good thing not a negative.
I have not one, but two pairs of Vapor speakers in the pipe line for different systems in my home now and I LOVE that they will both be custom builds unlike anything they've done before. Will my resale price be maximized? Probably not, but its a custom item at a very reasonable cost with class leading SQ and looks. Moreover, most owners will hopefully keep them for the long term rather than juggling like so much other gear...
You should also look at the fact that Vapor does cool stuff like upgrading existing platforms, like creating Joules out of peoples entry level Breezes or middle of their line Cirrus. That's pretty friggin' cool IMO.
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Tommy, the vinyl took 35 years, the cabinets were a trip to Scandinavian Designs, who are out of business now, but similar to IKEA--glad you like it, the records really help tame a live room. I just ordered the first of a batch of sound insulation that will go around room to tame it some more. Of the 4 different speaker systems that i have had in this room, the Joules are the only ones that really excite the room to the point where I need more baffling.
Back to Pete and Ryan, please tell the owner of the new Joules that Seadogs, Speadspectrum, DPatters, me and all the other Joule owners that we welcome him to the fold, and hope that s/he has a much fun with them as we have had with ours.
phil
The new owner is this gentleman . . .
http://www.dagogo.com/author/doug-schroeder
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Does that imply a pending review?
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Does that imply a pending review?
Man, I hope so. I would love to read his comments, as his review of the Nimbus really cemented my plans to pursue the Joule.
Beautiful finish too, BTW.
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God's Joy to all,
I don't post much here, mostly observing. This likely will be my only post for now; I have a lot going on, and I plan on an Owner's Review of the Joule speakers under discussion here. However, for the benefit of those interested, as a reviewer I was drawn to the powerful performance of the Vapor speakers. Ryan and I discussed and agreed upon every aspect of the build out of this speaker. This was more than a year long project in which every aspect of the Joule has been revisited. Ryan and I agreed upon the Verastarr internal cabling after I heard the Perfect Storm at AXPONA, which utilized Verastarr cabling. I pushed for more massive gauge internal cabling, and I believe the team at Vapor agrees it was a good move.
I will look forward to fleshing out the nuances of the "Perfect Joule" in the months ahead. Don't look for the article to appear at Dagogo.com immediately, as I have sizable number of things on my "to do" list, but it will be done eventually. Regarding the constant development of Vapor speakers, I believe that this perfectly dovetails with the custom build philosophy of Vapor, and I do not believe it will unduly hurt resale of the speakers Vapor makes, as their performance and appearance should command a premium.
Welcome to the Vapor Joule club Doug. I knew you have had your build in the pipe line for a long time and figured that it would be fully tricked out!!
It was hearing the Nimbus at RMAF 2014 and reading your review on the Nimbus at Dagogo.com that led me to teaming with Ryan and Pete for the Joule Blacks that I own.
Can't wait to hear your "owner's review" in the future.
Don P.
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I had the opportunity to spend some time with these speakers last night and all I can say is wow! Build quality is top notch and the sound these produced was outstanding. Sounds like there is a review in the works so I don’t want to steal anyone’s thunder so I will just say I was beyond impressed.
I have now had the pleasure to hear the Perfect Storms, Joules, Nimbus, Derecho, and my own pair of Cirrus Blacks. Ryan and Pete have really built a great family of speakers. Well done!
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Doug, your article tweaked my interest in Vapor , when i decided to buy my last set of speakers !THANK YOU
THE JOULE'S just keep getting better.!
ps Ryan designed some very affordable surrounds for me.They are not on the website, but, command a listen.had 2 made when i ordered my Joule's for 5.1 ht.I now have 2 more for 7.1 ht.
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Thanks for the words from the Vapor crew, here's a couple more shots of Doug's pair.
And I should mention, that even though Doug is a reviewer, he purchased this pair of speakers. Doug's been around, heard it all, and we're honored that he's chosen hop on-board the Vapor train.
(http://vaporsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Doug1.jpg)
(http://vaporsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Doug2.jpg)
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Does that imply a pending review?
Doing a review or not is completely up to Doug. In no way was he accommodated in order to get a review, but I imagine he's going to love them so much he'll feel compelled.
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Thanks for the words from the Vapor crew, here's a couple more shots of Doug's pair.
And I should mention, that even though Doug is a reviewer, he purchased this pair of speakers. Doug's been around, heard it all, and we're honored that he's chosen hop on-board the Vapor train.
(http://vaporsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Doug1.jpg)
Ryan, these look like they are covered in Sapaele, slightly different color from mine, but same general look, congrats these look wonderful.
Phil
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Is that a waveguide around the woofer? I have only seen them on tweeters before.
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Ryan, these look like they are covered in Sapaele, slightly different color from mine, but same general look, congrats these look wonderful.
Phil
You're right, your pair is more pure red. This pair we tried to not add much color, just a bit of brown/red mix to contrast nicely with the reddish brown Aston Martin paint.
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Is that a waveguide around the woofer? I have only seen them on tweeters before.
Would you believe me if I said it was :lol:
Seriously though, with a woofer crossed over at 300hz, the wavelengths are huge. So a waveguide to have any impact on them at all would also have to be huge, like at least 4' diameter. So no, this doesn't act as a waveguide. It's purely for aesthetic reasons, but I think accomplishes that goal perfectly. To make the square'ish bottom cabinet blend with the curvy top cabinet, we created those 3D pieces for the bottom cabinet to give elegant curves as well.
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I've had the pleasure to listen to Fex02's pair in his home. I've been involved in the AV industry for nearly 20 years and in that time I've heard many hundreds of super expensive systems in peoples homes. The sound that I heard in Fex02's living room is right up there with the very best of them. I came away very impressed and rather jealous.
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I've had the pleasure to listen to Fex02's pair in his home. I've been involved in the AV industry for nearly 20 years and in that time I've heard many hundreds of super expensive systems in peoples homes. The sound that I heard in Fex02's living room is right up there with the very best of them. I came away very impressed and rather jealous.
No need to be jealous Tim, we are still making more :wink:
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Well, seeing as how the editing function for virtual systems is dead in the water over at Audiogon, I'll comment here. I was going to do an update and post pics there; will eventually.
My pics never look as good as Ryans! But, hey, he's supposed to be a pro at it, whereas, I'm just semi-pro. LOL Seriously, a good capture of the finish.
Simply put, the Joule has fulfilled my expectations for it. I took a gamble on a speaker I had never heard (Joule), then spending over a year with Ryan discussing the entire buildout for a new speaker I'd never heard (version 3). Risky? Yeah, but one has to live a little, eh? Heheheh
Tonight we mourn the passing of the Nimbus White. When I entered into this excursion with Ryan, Pete and the Vapor team I had the normal amount of jitters, concerns, etc. My biggest concern would be that despite all his reassurances Ryan would be wrong, and the Nimbus sound would be quite close to the Joule 3. It isn't. Ryan is absolutely correct; he told me that even though I loved the Nimbus, and especially the funky look, he likes the appearance of the Joule better. I couldn't see it months ago, but now I do. In one word the change in my love is due to performance. I'll let go of the cool looks for a boatload more performance. The finish, too, is far more cosmopolitan.
As I said, I do lament the passing of the Nimbus White; it's dead to me. Tonight, within the hour, Ed Rosenquist, the maker of the Nimbus cabinet, comes to relieve me of this pair I traded in for partial payment on the Joule White 3. It passes on to Ed and back to Vapor. I shed a tear... (boo, hoo)
OK! LET'S PARTY! ON WITH THE TUNES VIA THE JOULE WHITE 3! :thumb:
Ed is going to have a brief listen to the Joule White 3 as well, one of the few who have heard this version. He may have a comment or two eventually.
I apologize for a very unsatisfactory message not containing much description of the sound of the Joule White 3. What do you expect, that I'm going to tell you all how it sounds and not have you consult my review? LOL
Blessings,
Doug
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Doug,
It's great to hear that your speaker build is a success! I took the same leap of faith in buying a speaker I had never heard. I've
had my Joules for almost a year now and I have never looked back. I smile everyday when I hit play.
Looking forward to your review.
Don P.
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Doug, as another person who was drawn to Vapor because of your Nimbus review, I want to thank you for your insight and hope, along with DPatters, that you enjoy your joules as much as I have enjoyed mine. due to the Joules being in the house for a year, I am listening to a lot more music, a much wider variety of music and have returned to my long set aside collection of vinyl. BTW, my Joules are essentially the same finish as yours, which as you say are cosmopolitan, mine are a little crazier, in something like fire engine red--they, shall we say, stand out in my room.
Phil
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Doug, your speakers are gorgeous and I too am glad to read that you are acoustically pleased at this point.
I am another guy that took that "leap of faith," buying without listening first. I have come to believe, however, that such leaps may not really be all that great in audio. What I mean by that is: unless you can hear a piece of equipment on your own system and in your own room (clearly an advantage of a reviewer here), it is extremely difficult to really get at the character of sound of that component. I have been both pleasantly surprised and disappointed with new equipment in my system, having first heard that equipment elsewhere. I think going with your gut may not be all that bad at times, particularly if the designer knows what they are doing and addresses technical aspects of sound production that you buy into. I think Vapor builds a pretty fine speaker in this regard.
In the end, the Joule added those magical qualities to sound reproduction in my listening room that keeps me engaged and coming back for more. I trust yours will as well, and I look forward to your review!
Ryan F
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Ladies and Gentlemen, Presenting...
my review of the Vapor Audio Joule White 3, now published at Dagogo.com!
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Wow! Just superbly written, and extremely accurate portrayal of the Vapor experience. Prospective buyers should read and remember what's in there during the wait.
While I drool over your Joule 3, I am happier than I could have imagined with my version 2, and it is the best decision I have made in audio. I am treated to a such visual and aural delight every time I sit down to listen that it almost feels as though I am not worthy of it. I haven't had the good fortune to listen to some of the big-buck speakers you have, and it feels even better now to hear what the Joule is capable of standing up against.
Now... to see about making the Raal sing WITHOUT the foam pads!
Ryan F.
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Ryan and Pete,
A beautiful pair of speakers! Congratulations on all your success.
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The review seemed to be thorough in the beginning but once we got to the most important part (the sound), not a whole lot has been said (except for the bass). Maybe Im missing something....
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Doug told me his review was something like 22 pages long, and that it was going to be split into 3-4 installments. Trust me, he's as thorough as they come, I trust there will be no questions left about just how they sound.
He did ask me to send him any corrections, one thing this installment obviously needs is a note at the end that more is coming.
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regardless of how impressive those Joules might be, I won't trade up my Nimbus for them :)...
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Thanks Ryan for explaining. It all makes much more sense now....
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I read the whole thing! He's actually a pretty decent writer; I know because I'm not the most patient reader.
But the overall assessment seems somewhat correct. I often think to myself when I read different things, "damn Ryan needs another person that's pretty serious, like someone who mostly can do the office work, and even then probably needs another person for working on speakers, maybe just a spray guy." Another way to say it, don't kill yourself for your customers! I'm fairly certain that adjusting for employees without just cranking the cost of speakers comes with its challenges.
After working in a wood shop, I can understand the frustration with custom pieces. Wood has a mind of it's own at times, and no matter how much you know and are careful with it, it's never 100%. So I'm actually VERY surprised you offer what you do with customization. It's not easy! But I'd probably price the job at 2x the parts just in case when it comes to veneers. Sadly the reason why some things are expensive is also the reason why they're desired...
The Nimbus look has been growing on me lately. I wonder if maybe a crossover tweak could be made for the midbass drivers. But then again maybe that guy is just trying to hear something that's not there.
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i had the same kinda feeling about the midbass, but after switching to the new int amp, the Nimbus sound absolutely fabulous!!!!!!!!!! Where can you get a speaker that looks and sounds like any of the ones from the Vapor family without spending at least 2 or 3 times the price?
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You can't.
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Vapor Joule Blacks are my best audio purchase ever. I've had them since November 2014 and they put a smile on my face everyday!!
Don P.
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Vapor Joule Blacks are my best audio purchase ever. I've had them since November 2014 and they put a smile on my face everyday!!
Don P.
And you just put a smile on mine! Thanks so much!
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Hey guys (and Gals?),
I don' t mean to disappoint anyone, but as they say, "That's all, folks!" Ryan, the last time I spoke with Constantine he was thinking it would be a two-part article. I presume he determined there was no easy break in the account, and decided to publish it altogether. So, I'm really sorry for not making everyone read twice or three times as much! Heheheh. Seriously, that was about 21 pages of info on Word document! I do tend to write when I enjoy a product. I'm not sure you could weight the performance solely by length of article, but it might not be a poor way for readers to gauge my enjoyment.
My sonic impressions are scattered throughout the article, i.e. discussion of the intricacies of the RAAL ribbon tweeter and the soundstage being influenced by the amp, etc. The Joule White 3 is an exceptionally well-balanced speaker top to bottom, given the attention to setup of tweeter and bass drivers. The flexibility in that regard is not so common and one of the reasons the speaker is so valuable to me.
In terms of mention of particular music, I often find that reviewers' comments on the sound of a particular piece of music, i.e. how the treble/mid/bass sounded is of little use to me. I prefer to know more about the design and potential issues than how it worked in that guy's rig. Often I find myself disagreeing with the assessment of the speaker design, yet the description of a listening experience by the reviewer is supposedly satisfactory. I tend to find analysis better than sharing an emotional moment. However, the Joule White 3 does have an innate capacity to reach the inner emotional recesses of my mind like very few of the many speakers I've used. A speaker must be exquisitely lifelike for me to drop the analysis and simply let the music wash over me. This almost never happens to me, but with the Joule White 3 it is a regular occurrence. I don't believe I'm having that experience merely because I wish to be correct about the pursuit and purchase of it.
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Hey guys (and Gals?),
I don' t mean to disappoint anyone, but as they say, "That's all, folks!" Ryan, the last time I spoke with Constantine he was thinking it would be a two-part article. I presume he determined there was no easy break in the account, and decided to publish it altogether. So, I'm really sorry for not making everyone read twice or three times as much! Heheheh. Seriously, that was about 21 pages of info on Word document! I do tend to write when I enjoy a product. I'm not sure you could weight the performance solely by length of article, but it might not be a poor way for readers to gauge my enjoyment.
My sonic impressions are scattered throughout the article, i.e. discussion of the intricacies of the RAAL ribbon tweeter and the soundstage being influenced by the amp, etc. The Joule White 3 is an exceptionally well-balanced speaker top to bottom, given the attention to setup of tweeter and bass drivers. The flexibility in that regard is not so common and one of the reasons the speaker is so valuable to me.
In terms of mention of particular music, I often find that reviewers' comments on the sound of a particular piece of music, i.e. how the treble/mid/bass sounded is of little use to me. I prefer to know more about the design and potential issues than how it worked in that guy's rig. Often I find myself disagreeing with the assessment of the speaker design, yet the description of a listening experience by the reviewer is supposedly satisfactory. I tend to find analysis better than sharing an emotional moment. However, the Joule White 3 does have an innate capacity to reach the inner emotional recesses of my mind like very few of the many speakers I've used. A speaker must be exquisitely lifelike for me to drop the analysis and simply let the music wash over me. This almost never happens to me, but with the Joule White 3 it is a regular occurrence. I don't believe I'm having that experience merely because I wish to be correct about the pursuit and purchase of it.
In that case Doug, I have to agree with branislav that your review leaves more questions than it gives answers in terms of just how they perform. You were certainly thorough however in detailing the difficulties during the build process. I know you're in love with the speakers, but honestly it doesn't really come through in the review, and I was hoping future installments would make that fact more obvious.
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Doug,
I agree with Ryan.While gushing over the joule, a potential new purchaser would be put off by your elaborate dissertation on the build process. I think the review "as it stands" does not provide a favorable picture of Vapor Audio.
I too ,was annoyed with the length of time it took for my Joule's. My music mentor was quick to remind me to "let the artist create".The final analysis was breathtaking .
The way the review stands "that's all folks " is unfair to the Vapor team.!
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*
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Greetings to all,
It may be more easy to see my enthusiastic reaction to the speakers if I group my declarative statements about them. It should be easier to see, then, why I feel they fulfilled my quest for an outstanding floor stander. Note the following excerpts:
There is another reason I enjoy the elevation provided by casters; it makes the Joule White 3 sound more like a cost-no-object speaker. Many of the world’s finest speaker systems are huge, several over six feet tall! A big speaker creates a fundamentally impressive, prodigious soundstage. Elevating the Joule White 3 makes it sound more like an imposing, premier speaker.
The Joule White 3 is a richer, more tonally deep speaker than the Nimbus White. Its particular drivers create a more sensuous fabric of sound, and they more accurately and widely blanket the room with that sound. The sonic “hue” is deeper, more appealing to the ear. The Joule White 3 is exceptional at this deeply enriched timbre. Its capacity in this regard reminds me of speakers known for the Midrange magic, such as older Quad speakers and High Efficiency speakers with coaxial drivers such as the Lotus Group’s Granada.
My three best audiophile friends choke in disbelief when hearing such disclosure, but to a man they all declared the Joule White 3, Exogal Comet DAC and Red Dragon S500 amps in mono mode to be clearly the best system I have ever built. Look at the list of speakers and components I have reviewed, and consider that comment from friends who have heard them, including the large Kingsound King III electrostatic speakers. Preternatural purity is a big reason why the Joule receives those accolades, as well as the vastness and completeness of the soundstage benefitted so much by the ribbon running unobstructed.
My point in discussing this is that there exist several price to performance plateaus in audio systems. A rough approximation of them might be $5K, $10K, $25K, $50K, $100K, $250K, and above. Speakers are bit trickier to nail down, as I have seen and heard offerings that in terms of performance are outliers. That is where Vapor Audio wishes to earn its keep. Can a little speaker shop make a product competitive in most respects with behemoths of the industry churning out pricey speakers?
Ryan Scott seems obsessed with giving the average guy the chance to own a sonic equivalent of a Magico or Wilson, and for that I thank him and the Vapor team! I think it will be a long time before he and the other principles get rich off these speakers. So, because the performance is extreme, in the realm of super-speakers, I am willing to accept the problems associated with a small shop building them. If you disagree, be prepared to spend many thousands of dollars to eliminate such concerns, with no assurance the sound quality will be better.
Can the Joule White 3 rip your head off? Yes, it can, and with style. It can put out so much clean, powerful force that it seems your body is being compressed into the listening chair, but you will enjoy it because it is so beautiful.
It is surprising to realize that a speaker can behave so differently as to create entirely distinct experiences, yet do so with such excellence that either scheme is recommendable. That is precisely what I hoped for with the Joule White 3, a speaker that whatever direction I go I am going to have riveting listening experiences.
I can tell you that when it arrives the wait for gorgeous aesthetics, but especially extreme sound quality and premium listening experiences will be over. In several respects Vapor Audio will have beaten the big audiophile boys at their game. You will own a speaker that performs competitively with some of “the best”, meaning names like JM Labs, Wilson, Vandersteen, YG Acoustics and Magico, and you will have done it without vaporizing tens of thousands of dollars from your bank account.
I hope this summary of my reactions shows that I am thrilled with the performance of the speakers! I plan on them making a lot of appearances in systems going forward.
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People tend to focus on the negative, of which I see damn little of, and I think this is an example here. They also seem to have taken your descriptions of the build imperfections wrong as well, rather than a nice informative description of what to expect with a custom shop.
Custom work is not typically offered. Since they do offer it, allot of times the materials have never been used in speaker building, and wood is wood. It has a mind of its own, ALL THE TIME. They took steps to touch up bad spots, and make them great using the materials requested, and at a budget. That is worth something, adds character, and makes for an overall, stunning personalized achievement. Seems to me there is a lot of speaker here for the money. Not to mention, Vapor is in infancy in comparison to who they are running against (with).
I think that if one reads or re-reads the enthusiastic review of the Nimbus, they might take a bit more from your comparisons. You addressed the strength's of the Joule's, while the fundamentals and waxing is all in the Nimbus review. What more does one need??
I don't see anything wrong at all with this review, personally. Nicely done. I can also tell that you have a fair amount of experience listening to allot of speakers. You give hints along the way that trigger my experiences listening to some of the best and most expensive speakers in existence. Based on your exposure to the best of the best, and your obvious experience with them, for you to put the Joule in this category speaks volumes about the product, IMO. You are quite obviously enamored with the Vapor's. Pretty plain to me.
Also, thank you SO MUCH for not being a sappy poet in your writing. Keep it real.
If there is anything to add to your review, it is a mention and link to the Nimbus review for the people who have not read it.
Again, nicely done.
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i bought the Nimbus after reading Doug's review about the Nimbus White...never heard the speakers, never seen them in person...and yet, after reading the review, few days later I contacted Pete and Ryan and made the arrangements to get a pair of Nimbus Black...
i have to say that by reading the review of the Joule, all those 4 pages wouldn't make pick up the phone and call Vapor...i have no doubt the Joules are amazing speakers, but the review doesn't make me (this is just my personal opinion) go 'wow! i've got to try these speakers'....
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I don't know... I re-read the review and while I understand the comments above, I don't come away with anything but positive. What I see is a very personal and intimate discussion about a relationship, rather than just a box with drivers - a relationship that defines the Vapor experience. The process, and the wait, are part of that relationship and are what makes the Vapor speaker unique and special. Given the way that the review is written it is difficult for me to see Doug as anything less than just enamored with the speaker.
Perhaps I am biased because I went though a very similar experience with a similar long wait, but I feel a sense of pride in belonging to something special after reading that review. Further, as Doug wrote above, the positive things people are looking for are in there if you sift a bit, and are more poignant and relevant when weighed against the Nimbus review.
Ryan F.
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Its capacity in this regard reminds me of speakers known for the Midrange magic, such as older Quad speakers and High Efficiency speakers with coaxial drivers such as the Lotus Group’s Granada.
The Grenada is a FAST design, full range augmented with subwoofer (technology), lol... not a coax. Definitely one of the best speakers I've heard, but it uses $50k drivers and costs $200k.
I liked the review, but agree more time spent on the sound quality and what material you listened to, and how the speakers worked with different amps would be good. One issue:
...No extra notch filters, Zobel networks or contour filters are used.
-An impedance compensation network is applied to the woofer...
So that's a Zobel then, right? :) Nothing wrong with that, many woofers benefit from a Zobel.
I also think it helps to explain the custom nature of the build and process, but this seemed to make up the bulk of the review.
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So that's a Zobel then, right? :) Nothing wrong with that, many woofers benefit from a Zobel.
No, it's not a Zobel. It is an impedance conjugate filter that takes care of the upper impedance peak of a woofer in a vented (or open TL) enclosure.
A zobel is used to take care of the inductive rise in impedance well above the woofer's system resonance. We employ no Zobels in any of our crossovers due to the fact that all the woofers we use employ lots of copper or aluminum around the pole which greatly reduces inductance and the need to directly compensate for it.
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I like Doug's writing style, he is very honest and has a great ear. If you go to Audiogon, community, systems Dougs Audio Den, you'll see by the equipment he owns he knows what he is talking about. I go there every now and again and he and I discuss equipment and cable recommendations.
I think the article is quite appropriate and useful for those wanting to take the journey with Vapor. To know upfront that this custom design may take quite some time and in most cases turn out as a great purchase. If you want a speaker that is state of the art and competes with the big boys for a lot less cash Vapor is the choice but patience is very important. If Ryan staffs up to produce at a much faster pace expect the commensurate jump in price. The Joule could easily be priced at 50k, the Perfect Storm at $125,000. People need to know the journey involved, and Doug did a great job writing the storyboard.
I am probably one of Vapor's first five customers, I have issues, like most, I do not air them publicly, hopefully they'll be resolved shortly, I like Ryan he is working hard to build the best product on the market at a price point that can get his art into more homes. I do think he needs to cut down on the number of finishes offered that way he can get ahead from a manufacturing standpoint by building cabinets upfront. The special finishes should probably be priced a lot higher.
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yes, i agree with you...with everything. I do like Doug's style of writing. I was just saying that when I read the Nimbus review, I couldn't wait to look for funds and I contacted Vapor immediately. The review of the Joule left me wanting a little bit more...I wanted to feel like 'hmm, maybe i should trade my Nimbus for the Joule'...but I didn't get that...that's all i'm trying to say.
if i didn't like Doug's style, then I wouldn't have ended up with a pair of Nimbus Black. As for pricing...Nimbus should be at around $20-22k, Joule at about $25-27k, and the Perfect Storm at about $37-40k...with a premium for all the special finishes...:)
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Gentlemen,
God's Peace to all,
I'm going to clarify a few things here for the benefit of the community. Firstly, this was not a "contracted" review; there was no agreement beforehand for me to review the Joule White 3. I did the article simply because I felt like it. Trust me, if the speaker had not met my expectations sonically, not only would I have been pissed off at having to wait for mediocrity, I certainly would not have wasted my time writing about it. Frankly, I would have begun already to think what time period would be necessary before dumping them. Gear which gives so-so performance (or, in some cases, has been aging and is less pertinent to new systems) gets cycled out of my room.
Second, I have heard plenty of harping related to my supposed turning of the entire article to the topic of the time frame of the build out. I disagree, so I did a word count of the article. The entirety of words dedicated to the discussion of the timing is right at 20% of the article. I suggest people take some time and re-read my work before jumping to contusions. (Yes, that's contusions, not conclusions.) I said I would spend a fair bit of time on that topic, and I did. Perhaps normally 10% of an article would be dedicated to such things, and I spent twice as much time on it. So, let's calm down when we think that I made the majority of the article about the logistics of the endeavor. It is true that I made it to be a "journey", and so it was. Didn't I also indicate that the journey was worth it for me?
Now, in regards to descriptions of sound, true, you didn't see five or six statements of how I emotionally bonded with my speakers while hearing a favorite tune. Is that what sells a speaker? Perhaps? I would suggest if that's the criterion for you to buy a speaker, it's a pretty weak one. As time passes I prefer to spend my efforts discussing the particularly impactful areas of performance which will influence ALL music. The two most important, imo, things to gain mastery of in terms of the Joule White 3 are the extreme performance of the RAAL Tweeter and the Audio Technology woofer relative to the system established, so that's what I focused on for the benefit of potential buyers. The performance of the Joule White 3 is extreme, superbly nuanced and capable of scaling up indefinitely. So, if one does not get that impression from the article, let it be noted here now.
I have had the Joule White in my possession for about five months now, and all vestiges of disappointment with timing have ebbed away. I knew, as always happens, that even the review systems/performance would be thoroughly eclipsed by successive rigs. That has happened, and the joy of the speaker is firmer now than when first obtained. This is NOT due to break in, as you can consider my comments in the article. It is due to building new rigs with superior synergy and quality. Consequently, since the time of the writing of the bulk of the article I enjoy them more than ever.
If performance is the topic, upgrading from one Vapor model to the next is a "no brainer," and I am happy to report that my contentment that I did so grows with time. I also believe I pointed out in the article I was pleased with the upgrade. Perhaps because I don't gush and fall all over myself verbally my comments on a speaker are perceived as though I somehow have quiet reservations on it's performance. I don't speak for other reviewers, but I don't want a reputation of hollow, inflated claims which result in eroding my own reputation for assessment.
I don't want Pete and Ryan, or anyone else to falsely conclude that I am damning the speakers by faint praise. This is not so. I didn't bullshit the outcome, so you either believe me when I compare the sonics to the speakers mentioned, or you don't. As for me, I'm plenty happy with the Joule White 3. :)
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Doug,
I think it would just have been nice to open with a bit more on how you like the speaker. For all the happy Vapor customers, and to be customers, I believe they want to see the past become the past; Vapor had perhaps one big mistake at some point, and a few trolls that simply want them to have a bad day that followed them around on the forums for years. It appears very obvious they've learned from that and have only worked towards becoming a better and better company. But in order to really do that, it would help for those with good experiences to be clear about it; because they come up in searches. You'll attest that they make wonderful products, work with you on many levels, and go over the top to "give you the nines" even if it extends the wait period for custom speakers (time is money). Their potential to grow to improve on every aspect and bloom into being named off hand with the big companies is tremendous, and in general around here everyone would like to see that in this community. That's why you get the concerned replies.
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I guess we will all agree to disagree, I reread the article and still think it is an accurate depiction of the buying experience, as well as the sound. Starting on page two he begins to give a great description of the perceived differences between the Nimbus and Joule. From what I read as the system evolved he became more and more bowled over by the Joule and his friends indicated it is the best system he has ever assembled. Believe me that's saying a lot because he has had some great systems. When I stated 50k for the Joule you better believe if Rockport or Magico made the Joule it would at least be 50k.
I also believe the Joule were purchased by Doug and not a reviewers loaner, that's saying a lot, which means it will now be his benchmark... Just sayin...
Hey Ryan hope you are feeling better, let me know where we stand...
Mike B.
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Count me as one that believes that the review accurately depicts the buying experience as well as the end result. I had no doubt after reading that article that he absolutely loved the sound and the build once it was finally completed. He is 100 percent correct in that anyone that commissions a build must be able to have incredible patience with the process. If you are not capable of that kind of patience, don't go there. It will save everyone a lot of heart burn. If you can wait it out, the end result is worth it. Good job Doug, and congratulations on a great pair of speakers to compliment the rest of your system.
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The review scared me away after the first two pages . I could tell he loves the speakers but the seemingly negative experiences he had shown through more to me .
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Key words here are "incredible patience " when building the first of anything
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The review scared me away after the first two pages . I could tell he loves the speakers but the seemingly negative experiences he had shown through more to me .
Same here. I could never wait over a year no matter how great they looked or sounded. Life is too short.
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A link that some of you should check out..
http://www.sixside.com/fast_good_cheap.asp
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Same here. I could never wait over a year no matter how great they looked or sounded. Life is too short.
The standard models don't take that long, I don't think.
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Same here. I could never wait over a year no matter how great they looked or sounded. Life is too short.
Existing models are probably much faster, and Vapor is a standout value so you're likely get less speaker with almost anyone else, especially the Nimbus, Joule and Perfect Storm... The value is off the charts and you'll spend tens of thousands more for a comparable speaker from most other manufacturers offering similar products. If I wasn't into diy I'd figure out a way to get a Nimbus black and I'd be happy to wait for it.
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Same here. I could never wait over a year no matter how great they looked or sounded. Life is too short.
I just thought I would chime in on build time. I own the only pair of Joule Black 2.0 ever built. My time from order to delivery was seven months. I picked my own veneer, paint, finish, and crossover upgrades. I'd like to know where else I could have had this amount of custom work done (except Salk). Yes, there were delays but aren't there always in custom projects? I could have never gotten the customization and the level of performance for double the price so I think the amount of time it took was reasonable and believe me, once the speakers are in your room you won't think about the long wait. It fades REALLY fast.
Don P.
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I just thought I would chime in on build time. I own the only pair of Joule Black 2.0 ever built. My time from order to delivery was seven months.
Hi Don,
Just curious, was your pair built for a show?
Todd
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Hi Don,
Just curious, was your pair built for a show?
Todd
Todd,
They were shown at RMAF 2014 but that wasn't the original intention. My build was nearing completion and Ryan approached me about showing them since he got a large room relatively late. I agreed and then the were shipped to me after the show. I was hesitant at first since I was anxious to get my speakers in house but it was only a two week additional delay and my speakers got some hours on them. I was also anxious to see how they would be received at the show since I commissioned the build having never heard a pair. Seeing the show reports was really exciting which just amped up the anticipation.
I live in Central PA so I didn't get my speakers personally delivered by Ryan. They were shipped Pilot freight and were very well packed as described by Doug in the review. I had two friends on hand to help me set them up and Ryan spent a good amount of time with me on the phone the day I received them. Ryan has also followed up a couple of times in the last year just to check in and make sure I was satisfied. Not many companies do follow up after the purchase.
Don P.
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Some things are worth the wait, and I completely agree with Don's remarks. Naturally, some folks may have a subjectively different opinion on how much wait is too long, and that is precisely why the understanding of the custom Vapor build process is important. I, for one, have no problem with their build times given the quality and uniqueness of the product.
I would also like to add comments on the post build support. Since buying my speakers, I have had continuing input from Ryan on tweaking out my listening room, including the building of custom BAD panels reported on elsewhere in this forum. In addition, after a friend of my daughter's recently decided to have playtime with the dustcap of one of my woofers, both Ryan and Pete almost instantaneously responded with detailed instruction on removing and repairing the woofer - on a Sunday, I might add. I can't imagine such devotion and support from many other speaker manufacturers.
Meanwhile, I am in negotiations with the parents of the involved child for indentured servitude until such a time that my emotional damages have recovered... :evil:
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Some things are worth the wait, and I completely agree with Don's remark
In addition, after a friend of my daughter's recently decided to have playtime with the dustcap of one of my woofers, both Ryan and Pete almost instantaneously responded with detailed instruction on removing and repairing the woofer - on a Sunday, I might add. I can't imagine such devotion and support from many other speaker manufacturers.
Meanwhile, I am in negotiations with the parents of the involved child for indentured servitude until such a time that my emotional damages have recovered... :evil:
Ryan (Mr.Spectrum), I too agree that some things are worth the wait, and my speakers continue to amaze and challenge me to improve my system and my room. I can honestly say that every change I make, including moving sound baffles a few inches, makes a change in the way that my Joules (now a year and a half [very old] Joule 2.0), sound. they are truly illuminating.
Like you, I had a mishap, a friend, someone actually in the HiFi biz was over showing me his wonderful speaker cables, which weighed quite a lot and he accidentally broke off the speaker connector to one of my Joules. Ryan Scott sent me, quickly, new connectors, some of his solder, which was way better than what I had and complete instructions on what to do and how to do it. Again, not the sort of support you expect from a big box speaker, but what you would expect from an artist who truly loves his art and wants to make sure that his patrons get and achieve the finest out of his art that they can get.
Phil
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If the speakers being ordered are not an off the shelf model and is being developed after the initial order , 7 months- 1 yr sounds about right for delivery...
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I think it boils down to this , If you have a system that is satisfying at time of order, the waiting to me would not be so important . If you do not have a system with speakers that you find enjoyable then the wait would be unbearable to me . Depends were you are at with current system .
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I think it boils down to this , If you have a system that is satisfying at time of order, the waiting to me would not be so important . If you do not have a system with speakers that you find enjoyable then the wait would be unbearable to me . Depends were you are at with current system .
Interesting point, I more or less agree. I've been waiting about 10 months now for my Vapors. My experience has been a roller coaster of anticipation. Early on, I was expecting a fast delivery because my pair were targeted for T.H.E. Show At Newport 2015. That didn't happen, not sure why, so I settled into a wait and see game. The occasional updates from Ryan always stir up the anticipation, but the reality of waiting for the next update quickly dampens the excitement. Fortunately, I really like my current speakers so I just brush it off and continue to wait. I ordered my speakers for my 50th birthday and I'm hoping to get them before I turn 51.
Todd
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Hang in there.There are times when Ryan goes in the black hole ,no communication whatsoever, but that's him.Its a price for his talent.
I believe him and Rainman have allot in common.
Shortly , this wait will disappear , and a profound joy will happen.
Yesterday , i listened to a sonus faber/nelson pass setup that was off the charts.The room was set up by Bart, From Resolution Accoustic's,
and it was wonderful.I came home , fired up the Joule's , and was blown away with their ability to play music.!pure heaven.
Keep us posted .talking about it is therapeutic , and will help pass the wait !