Grande 6 vs. Super 3

Pops · « **on:** 12 Jun 2004, 12:42 pm »

Hey, guys,

I am tossing around the Super 3 (possibly the Super 3-R) vs. the Grande 6 for use with my Jolida 102B tube amp. Any comments / observations about the differences between the two? The Grande was reviewed favorably in use with the 102B, but the Super 3 also looks great.

Thanks for your opinions!

JLM · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Jun 2004, 10:32 am »

Hey Pops,

Both will sound similar as they both use single Fostex drivers, both use standmounted bass reflex cabinets of similar size, and both hale from the same company.

The TS2 will tend to sound warmer and be a bit more efficient.

The Super 3/3R would be faster, and with a sub could make it into the next league up IMO.

It's largely a matter of taste, OTOH all of Louis' recent speakers have used the same driver that the Super 3 has.

Pops · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Jun 2004, 01:11 pm »

I just auditioned a DALI Sceptre pair yesterday and was really impressed. Can anyone give a critical evaluation of how the Omega Super 3 would sound compared to the DALI? I know they are apples and oranges, due to the DALI having a tweeter and crossover network. Still, I'd like to have some idea, and the DALI is my best reference right now.

Pops · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Jun 2004, 11:20 am »

What are the general qualities of a full range speaker loudspeaker (like an Omega) vs. a crossed over loudspeaker (like a DALI or every other mass market speaker)?

I gather that the full range has better fidelity (single source) but is not as sharp in the highs and lows as a two or three way. Is that right? If so, how notable is the difference for the more than casual, less than obsessed listener / audiophile?

Or in more other words, I know what is supposed to be good about full range, but what is bad about them? Where is the design weak?

JLM · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 Jun 2004, 01:14 am »

Decades ago the experts knew that 7 octaves (65-8,000 Hz) covered 95% of all music. Since then marketing types have convinced most that 10 octaves (20-20,000 Hz) is "needed". However to achieve those extra 3 octaves designs went from single driver or two way designs to 3, 4, or even 5 way designs. And amplifiers also had to change to provide more power, better bass control, and less high frequency distortions. Next room treatments, additional amps, and all sorts of isolation devices were needed. All the while, the simplier the better concept was nearly forgotten.

With the Omega speakers you can have 8.5 octaves with high efficiency (that naturally provides greater dynamics while allowing for lower powered amps) standmounted speakers. Single driver speakers by design have the advantages of active speakers (one amp per driver) that you can read about here at audiocircle and beyond without all the problems associated with crossovers (such as phasing and power loss) or multiple drivers (poorer imaging from multiple sources and different sounds coming from different types of drivers). And money saved from multiple drivers and crossovers can be put into better single divers. Omega speakers were designed to take advantage of the SET and other low powered tube amps. (Every Fostex driver I've heard sounds better with tube amplification.) Add a powered subwoofer for the deep bass to the Super 3 or 3R and you'd have a standout set of speakers. Depending on your room size and musical perferences you may not feel the need to ever add the sub.

The downside of single driver speakers: smaller drivers can't provide high output of bass frequencies, larger drivers can't produce high frequencies without "beaming" like a flashlight, and in general distortion at both extremes as well as at high volumes is greater.

No design is perfect, all make compromises. So you choose your medicine, hopefully in a fully informed way, and go on.

Sprite · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Jun 2004, 05:01 pm »

I have a pair of C37 treated Grande 6's and think they're great. Highly recommended! -David

Carlman · « **Reply #6 on:** 25 Jun 2004, 05:26 pm »

Sometimes you can get a fairly analytical explanation of someone's experience of a speaker. I've found that very few (none yet) will explain what they hear specifically compared to a non-single driver speaker.

I'd love to hear the Omega's sitting next to my speakers and write up what I hear different.

I've heard 1 pair of full-range speakers but they were horn-loaded and different than the Omega's. Also, they weren't broken-in yet. However, I thought they covered about 4 octaves around the midrange very well and then had some issues in the highs and the bass I couldn't put my finger on... I'd rather have a speaker that didn't try to do things it couldn't. That's where a crossover is handy.

I would think an active crossover to the Omega's and a sub would be an excellent combo. However, I don't know. I have never heard the Omega's and I probably won't unless I buy them.

I don't know what 'sounds great' means to anyone but me. If the Omega's sound like music itself and not an electronic reproduction, then I would definitely want to own a pair. However, I haven't had much luck eliciting a detailed analysis of their sound from purchasers.

I realize there's no way to tell someone with (definitively) what speakers sound like but I'd love to find more descriptive reviews. The first reply was excellent and helped me think of ideas like a crossover/sub combo w/ the Super 3R.

My only guess (just a guess!) is that the full-range sound is more comprimising than many would like to admit. (based on my 1 4-octave listening experience

) However, that would explain why the hi-fi industry chose the path of crossovers, multiple drivers and bigger amps. If people want accuracy and imaging and they get it from traditional 2- and 3-way designs, why would they go for something that has less accuracy, imaging, but a great midrange?

My questions are somewhat rhetorical and food for thought... And also the product of frustration in trying to find a pair of these to audition. I have a hard time believing they could replace my Europa's. (simple, 2-way's w/ 2nd order crossover) But, I haven't ruled out their potential.

-C

Brad · « **Reply #7 on:** 25 Jun 2004, 06:12 pm »

Carl,

If you ever make it to Houston, you're welcome to come check out the Super 3's, used in conjunction with a VMPS smaller sub.

The Super 3's have nice bass - it's not room-shaking, but it's deeper than you would expect, and very tuneful. I don't miss a separate tweeter at all - the Super 3's go as high as I need - and are very smooth.

JLM - great post.

Carlman · « **Reply #8 on:** 25 Jun 2004, 06:39 pm »

Brad,
Thanks for the offer. I don't make it to TX very often. In fact, I've never been..

But, hearing that setup has been the best reason I've had so far... so, who knows!?

JLM · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Jun 2004, 12:03 pm »

Carlman,

You're right. Most single driver fans won't tell you that their $1,000 drivers in large exotic cabinets don't go below 50 Hz or that they have horn sounding artifacts, or that they whizzer cones they use have doppler distortions.

The secret to a well excuted single driver speaker to me is in keeping with the concept (an active driver covering 8+ octaves providing ideal imaging source at moderate listening levels). Folks get in trouble when they try to push the concept too far, that's a big part of the beauty of the Omega speakers, especially (to me) the 3 Series speakers. Most of audio revolves around trying to get the last bit of detail, frequency response, imaging, etc. and it's a big time "point of dimishing returns" issue frought with pitfalls as I eluded to above.

With Louis/Omega you can get customization of a great looking product at a very reasonable price. I own and have owned small two-way standmounts and love them. That type of product is the closest thing you'll find to something like the Omega speakers, but typically with less efficiency. Larger speakers with more drivers spread across a larger baffle with more and more crossover circuits sound like a big dis-jointed hifi mess compared to the naturally coherent single driver source.

Carlman · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Jun 2004, 12:32 pm »

Quote from: JLM

Carlman,

You're right. Most single driver fans won't tell you that their $1,000 drivers in large exotic cabinets don't go below 50 Hz or that they have horn sounding artifacts, or that they whizzer cones they use have doppler distortions...

And I would hope not! My 2-ways don't go below 50Hz either, though. But, describing their faults isn't what I'm after... "Horn Artifacts" are likely what I heard in the bass of the single-drivers I heard. So, I was more interested in these Omega's since they aren't a horn-design.

The one's I listened to did not have whizzer cones but I know that's its own controversy. I know the top-level, overall principles and ideas... I was hoping to find a side-by-side comparison of the quality/nature of sound. I'm only concerned with which sounds more like music and less like electronics.

I'll get my hands on a pair of Omega's sometime and see what they do. I've spoken to Louis and I know he'd be great to work with... just a matter of time...

-C

JLM · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Jun 2004, 10:40 pm »

Carlman,

Nearby to this thread there's a thread from a well qualified to review gentleman who had Louis build cabinets for Fostex F120A drivers (IMO the best small extended range driver available). That thread speaks to the viability of single drivers. BTW the F120A has a big brother, the F200A.

My next speakers (for audio only use) will be floorstanding single driver mass loaded transmission lines using the Fostex F200A. The speakers will go below 30 Hz flat to totally avoid a crossover and truly be a single driver solution.

I'm cheap, the drivers are $375 each, and I'm into audio for the music.

Enough said.

BTW, if you ever do audition Omega or Fostex drivers, they prefer tubes.

rosypup · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Jul 2004, 06:31 pm »

JLM has some sound advice regarding frequency range. The best speaker I ever heard is a WEstern Electric. It has a narrow frequency range, something like 100-1,000. Who cares really.? It will smoke any other speaker. I'm getting to go hear it again this thursday.

I just reinstated my super 3's on my desktop after being interested for a short while in something else. That something else is similar to the galante rhapsody.

That is a fine speaker, but the super 3 is just more pleasing to the ear, especially at the desktop.

The super 3 has really great imaging. It is a mellow speaker. There are more detailed than fostex, but fostex just sounds good. Even though the driver is quite small, and small single drivers seem to play the sound in smaller proportion than it should be, I don't notice this with the super 3. It just presents the whole field of the sound as a whole, if I am explaining this correctly.

I use mine at desktop and it is kind of perfect there. I can sit back in another chair and enjoy it from there too. But I don't know how well this little speaker could fill a midsize or large room.

I heard the proac 2.5 I think it was, and those types of speakers while they sound good, don't compare to a single driver like this. I don't know if the dali is like that or not. Can a set drive a dali?

I have the f200a too.

JLM · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Jul 2004, 10:22 pm »

rosy,

To each their own, but for me Lowthers are just too detailed. (I don't need to know how many fillings each singer has.

) It distracts me from the body of the music, it demands my attention and I can't turn off the analytical side of my brain (which for me is the major reason for listening to music).

I'm a tone first, detail second, and imaging third guy. (Imaging could be second, but recording techniques and studio recordings render 99% of all imaging as an artificial reconstruction.)

So how would you compare the Super 3 to your F200As and what kind of cabinets are the F200As in?

rosypup · « **Reply #14 on:** 8 Jul 2004, 04:12 pm »

I'm not a fan of lowthers either. I like the detail very much, but I don't like other aspects of the sound. IT's like a close shave that cuts.

I have the f200a in cabinets from kloss if you know who he is. He's a diy'er in the nidwest putting together some good stuff.

I have the f200a's, the super 3's, and the abbys nearfield. I also have radian drivers.

I haven't done much of a comparison. They all sound good.

The super 3's are just so easy to listen too. and they have a great sound. They image estremely well. I haven't run across a better lonmg-term speaker for my desktop.

The abbys are a special speaker. I think the voight pipe is something special perhaps and the wood construction of the box is superb. So it has great resonance and sound/imaginig.

The f200a probablyhas the best tone of the three. It has good bass. It's probably the most well-rounded of the three.

The 8 inch radian drivers are a little in the direction of the lowthers. they can have an amazing sound. The have great tone and articulation. But they are perhaps meant more as a ceiling speaker and perhaps are fine off-axis.

I like diversity, and I'm beconing a little fascinated by vintage compression drivers and horns.

rosypup · « **Reply #15 on:** 8 Jul 2004, 04:50 pm »

I also have to add that i've been sitting at my desktop now, hanging out unusually long on the computer. All this time I've had the music on.

Using a 6sn7/27/300b diy amp, I can't get over how sweet the music sounds with the super 3's. It is sweet and beautiful. I guess my speakers are broken in and it sounds just sweet and beautiful.

Completely non-fatiguing sound yet articulate and interesting.