New preamp info - updates wanted

romandoc · « **on:** 29 Oct 2005, 06:11 pm »

Hi, it's been a month since the news of a new preamp surfaced.
Any newer news? Pictures, specs, prices ?

John Chapman · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Oct 2005, 04:58 pm »

Hello!

I have been really working at it here - all is still going well. 3 of the 4 initial front panel boards are complete. TVC module design is complete. S&B will be making the first batch of modules soon. I could not find a really nice pcb mount rca jack so I am having one made custom. It is due in the next few weeks time. Now working on casework. Many case parts hare here now and more comming in the next few weeks. Should have pics by then.

I will soon do a pricing of all the parts and then post product prices.

Basically all the info in the other post is still current. One change that came as a result of requests after I posted that info is there will be a single box option. The basic models of TVC finished product will be:

Single box one input (xlr or rca) with dual rca and dual xlr outputs.
Single box with 6 rca inputs and dual rca outputs (with tape / headphone output)
Single box with 4 rca + 2 xlr inputs and dual rca and xlr outputs (with tape / headphone output)

Then there will be the dual box versions of the above units with separate controller and audio path enclosures. For these 2 box setups there are 3 choices of controller:

1- Very small simple controller
2- Unique designed controller - along the lines of the TAP Classic controller.
3- More traditional controller with numeric volume display, etc. This one is the controller in the single box units.

Back to work now.....

Thanks!

John

John Chapman · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Nov 2005, 02:24 pm »

Hello!

Quick update. I have been focussed on finishing up all design aspects and getting all parts ordered. It is still going very well and most parts are here or ordered. Just getting final case parts to confirm those parts then I'll have all parts finalized. I am waiting to post pics until I have a final version - about 2 weeks from now. I want to get the laser engraving, etc, done so it'll look exactly like production units.

Now that parts are all costed I finally found time to do a speadsheet early today to calc costs and set initial pricing. The prices for the units will be:

One Input version (XLR OR RCA - switchable) with dual rca and dual xlr outputs = $1900

6 RCA Inputs and dual rca outputs and tape output - no phase switching = $2100

4 rca in + 2 xlr in with dual rca and dual xlr outputs and tape output with phase switching = $2300

Dual box unit pricing will be about $150 to $300 more depending on the controller type - just working that out now. All Units have the following features:

- Latest MK III OCC copper TX102 Transformers
- 34 steps from mute to +6db
- +6db mode automatically engages as the volume is raised - no separate switch needed.
- Ballance control
- Very high quality optical encoder for level control - this is the single most expensive part (asside from the tvc's!).
- Extreme Quality Teflon like PCB board Material (arlon 25N).
- All parts chosen for VERY long term reliabilty - nothing should EVER wear out or degrade sonically.
- Full remote and front panel control of all functions.
- Phase select (with no additional parts in the signal path) via remote on the 4rca/2xlr input model.
- Any input can easily be programmed as an HT bypass.
- Easy to add extra Bent Unit modules to expand to 6 or more channels - each with it's own trim adjust.

These prices are a bit higher than I'd hoped but when I add up the parts costs this will be the best I can do. I tend to build stuff (as I would for myself) with the best parts I can find then add up the costs when I'm done...... I hope this is not placed the costs too high. Given the features and quality aspects that go beyond the NOH pre-amp I don't feel the cost increase was that high.

I'd like to get some feedback on one item in particular. That is if anyone is still reading this stuff - it's very quiet here while I am in developement mode!. When I did the costing I had to wonder if the rca only unit makes any sense? Most don't need more than 4 rca inputs and the price spead to the full blown xlr/rca unit with phase switching is not huge. Doing a unit with only 4 rca inputs would not save that much either. As I summarized this today I wondered if I should drop the rca only unit to simplify the line-up . Any feedback on that or other suggestions would be great!

Thanks!

John

mamsterla · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Nov 2005, 07:32 am »

John:

If you think that sourcing the extra configuration for the 6 rca unit does not make sense, you are probably right. I think it is best to simplify and then stock inventory based on demand. If you get enough people who want the RCA only version, you can always bring it online now that you have done all the design.

BTW, is there some kind of loaner unit program to try before buy? I am in Los Angeles, and do not mind leaving a CC number with you as a deposit...

John Chapman · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Nov 2005, 09:17 pm »

Hello!

Thanks for the feedback. It was a while before any posts so I'd feared that everyone had keeled over from the shock of the pricing.....

I am going to drop the rca only version for the tvc units. There will ba an all rca board for the resistor based units (and for diy and oem's). It'll be easy to create a tvc unit with all rca's if needed.

We will have a trial/return period now for sure. That is one of the resons I am partnering with Diycable - who is based in Washington. His office will make an easy base to ship to and from. Sending stuff from Canada to the USA is very easy but our gov up here makes it downright painfull to allow product swaps for trials or upgrades without charging the sales tax (14%) to me here when the come back accross the border. There is a way to do it but only if I want to spend my life filling out forms......

Thanks!

John

StephanLJ · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Nov 2005, 09:43 pm »

Hi John,

From what I have been using for the last twenty years my wish list is as follows for two channel stereo:

a) Inputs
6 Inputs RCA (1 Phono, 1 Tuner, 1 Tape(yes there are guys out there using tapes or DAT, me beeing one of them) 1 CD, 1 cinema left/right, one reserve like i-Pod)
2 XLR in (CD, one optional for the few guys who have phono on XLR)

b) Outputs
1 RCA for the basic amp since most tube amps have this input and this unit will have it´s equal with tube amps and make these fly.

1 XLR (simultaneously) for the few of us who have a second amp or want - and here it is getting really interesting - amplify an active speaker that is normally a bass unit or a subwoofer.

1 RCA in reserve (optional)

Greetings Stephan

PS: I still could bite my back not having seen and bought the NOH

GordonJ · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Nov 2005, 09:17 am »

Hi John

Not been by for a while. This all sounds very exciting. I was expecting the prices to be higher when you gave an idea of what was coming. I agree that the all rca version is probably of limited appeal. Can't wait to see what they look like.

I'm still loving my NOH, now sitting between a Bryston 3BSST and a Monarchy dac. Not likely to be doing much in the way of changes in the near future as I'm in the process of moving, but for future interest, will there be a silver-wired option?

Best wishes

Gordon

John Chapman · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Nov 2005, 08:02 pm »

Hello!

StephanLJ - I get lots of calls from folks who desperately wanted a NOH but have tried to re-assure them that the new unit is equal or better than the NOH in every respect. If it was not I would not have spent all this time doing it...... Seems to be a dissapointment when they can't get a new NOH instead of the new TAP but once the pics are out I think that will fade.

I don't think I'll go beyond 6 inputs - I am getting universal heat from other oems (who are using the component boards) that 6 inputs is too many! Most seem to think 4 or 5 is lots. I am pushing most to implement all 6 since it does not cost much more at all and seems to cover most folks needs. A help is that any xlr input can be easily used as an rca input using a simple adapter so the standard unit will handle 6 rca inputs if needed (or 5 rca's +1 xlr). I try and avoid adapters in general (to keep signal paths clean) but for an i-pod or simlar sources it will work great.

For outputs all versions will have dual rca and dual xlr outputs. Again the cost to do this is not high and it covers most everyones needs. Also the tape output will be there to feed a dat or cdr or to feed a headphone amp with it's own level control.

To use rca out to your subwoofer and xlr outputs to your main amps at the same time (and to do it right) you'll need to isolate them from each other with a small transformer. This isolation trannie will be in a small external box you place in-line with the cable to the subwoofer.

To do it the way around you describe (rca to the main amp and xlr to the sub) you only need to plug the cables as normal and it'll function fine. This is the way my system here is. I am using an rca connection to my main amps and a pro-audio amp (Crown K2) for the subs. Most pro-audio amps have an xlr input.

---------------------

GordonJ

Glad the NOH has been fun! There will be a silver model for sure - since I want one for myself..... It will basically just add the extra cost of the silver tx102's - $400 per pair.

Thanks!

John

romandoc · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Nov 2005, 09:22 pm »

Thanks for the excellent updates. The only *important* thing missing are the pictures.
A few points:
- the prices quoted are not too high, given the fact that this preamp will compete with the best out there and the construction quality is *promised* to be of a high caliber. (Hint:

pictures, please!

)
- the XLR inputs/outputs are *not* balanced, right? They can't be. Any problems running a regular XLR balanced cable between a balanced component with XLR out and the unbalanced XLR in on the new Bent preamp? The original voltage will be halved, right?
- too many connections are not very useful anyway, because, besides digital sources, how many tape decks or tuners have a strong and robust enough output stage as to *not* need an active preamp in order to sound their best??? Very few, if any, to my knowledge most have a high impedance output and less, sometimess much less than 1V.
- since any preamp input is going to be programmable as a HT pass through, the tape output is going to be utterly useless for me and anyone who can accept the minimal inconvenience of actually inputting the direct signal of the source into the tape/cd recorder, without inputting it first into preamp.
- with the NOH you had applied a very nice idea of using captive RCA interconnect out with a nice strain relief, thus eliminating one RCA male-female interface. Will you do the same now, upon request?
Thanks!

romandoc

John Chapman · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 Nov 2005, 09:57 pm »

Hello!

Thanks for the comments. I'll address each in-line below.

- the prices quoted are not too high,

Good!

(Hint: pictures, please! )

I am waiting until I get a unit complete here with all the trimmings before posting pics.

- the XLR inputs/outputs are *not* balanced, right? They can't be.

The MK III rev of the tx102 does a great job of running ballanced connections. It does make full use of a ballanced source - essencially using the 'difference' between pin2 and pin3 at the input accross the transformer primary. Also does a really decent job of converting SE to bal or Bal to SE. TX's are used all the time in gear to perform this conversion - here we do the conversion and the level control at the same time.

- Any problems running a regular XLR balanced cable between a balanced component with XLR out and the unbalanced XLR in on the new Bent preamp? The original voltage will be halved, right?

No problem and the unit will see the full voltage (pin2 to pin3 as described above).

- since any preamp input is going to be programmable as a HT pass through, the tape output is going to be utterly useless for me and anyone who can accept the minimal inconvenience of actually inputting the direct signal of the source into the tape/cd recorder, without inputting it first into preamp.

Not sure I follow exactly. The 'bypass' is not a true bypass - I tend to avoid those since they add additional relay contacts to the signal path all the time (like tape loops do). I'll add features like this only if there is no additional circuitry used in the signal path to do it. For bypass the unit simply jumps to a fixed (unity gain) level when an HT input is selected and back to the prev volume when a normal input is selected. The tape output is simply a direct connection to the current input selected before the level is reduced via the tx102. It is no different than plugging your source's cables directly to the tape deck but is more convienient.

- with the NOH you had applied a very nice idea of using captive RCA interconnect out with a nice strain relief, thus eliminating one RCA male-female interface. Will you do the same now, upon request?

I did a few like that. It is nice and clean and appeals to my 'keep that signal path clean' sensibilities but I had a few want to change cable lengths or system layouts after the fact. This kinda had me wondering if I was doing folks a favor doing this or if I was making things a hassle down the road..... Still once I get organized and shipping I expect we'll be able to do some specials like that.

Thansk!

John

StephanLJ · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Nov 2005, 03:04 pm »

Hi John,

PICTURES PLEEEEEEASE. You do have the front panels ready why not show us??

Greetings Stephan

John Chapman · « **Reply #11 on:** 27 Nov 2005, 02:44 pm »

Hello!

Believe me when it is ready I'll post pics online! I am not taking any pleasure in how long this is taking to wrap up.......Still waiting for the front panels.... Case parts taking longer to get than promised which is typical I guess but also very frustrating. After thjey are here I still need to anodize and laser engrave so the week after next is the earliest I'll have those ready for pics.

Arlon PCB's for the TVC modules showed up now and they look great. At the end of next week I'll at least have pics of all the internal modules - final versions of each will be done by then.

Thanks!

John

denjo · « **Reply #12 on:** 1 Dec 2005, 04:10 am »

Hi John
Although I have heard good things about your Bent NOH, I must confess to being an ignoramus to what it actually is and how it works in a system. I am in the process of buying a secondhand Bent NOH preamp (the front fascia has only 1 knob instead of 3. What is the difference?), and even asked the seller if it ran on electricity!!

My question is rather short but I guess existing Bent preamp owners would also be interested: when your new system is out can we use the NOH as base unit and hook it up to the TAP?

I presently use a McCormack DNA-0.5 Rev A but hope to upgrade it and add a balanced input which will have a 10kohm spec. Will this synergise with the NOH or should I leave them as unbalanced (100kohm)? What cables should I use from NOH to amplifier? Any suggestions?

Many thanks,
Dennis

denjo · « **Reply #13 on:** 1 Dec 2005, 04:10 am »

Hi John
Although I have heard good things about your Bent NOH, I must confess to being an ignoramus to what it actually is and how it works in a system. I am in the process of buying a secondhand Bent NOH preamp (the front fascia has only 1 knob instead of 3. What is the difference?), and even asked the seller if it ran on electricity!!

My question is rather short but I guess existing Bent preamp owners would also be interested: when your new system is out can we use the NOH as base unit and hook it up to the TAP?

I presently use a McCormack DNA-0.5 Rev A but hope to upgrade it and add a balanced input which will have a 10kohm spec. Will this synergise with the NOH or should I leave them as unbalanced (100kohm)? What cables should I use from NOH to amplifier? Any suggestions?

Many thanks,
Dennis

John Chapman · « **Reply #14 on:** 1 Dec 2005, 04:51 am »

Hello!

I'll do my best to reply in-line below....

>Hi John
Hi.

>The front fascia has only 1 knob instead of 3. What is the difference?

That would be either a 1 input or 2 input model - if there are toggle switches on the front or if there are LED's on the front it is a unit with remote source selection. Call when you get it and we can go through the details.

>I even asked the seller if it ran on electricity!!

If it has remote control it does use electricity - although the signal path is still all passive.

> can we use the NOH as base unit and hook it up to the TAP?

They are different enough that this would not work out. There would really not be any benifit to that anyway since you have tx102 transformers already in the NOH you would not need or want another TAP with it's own transformers inside.

>10 K or should I leave them as unbalanced (100kohm)?

Either is just fine - although I would not change it strictly to add the bal connection since I would not expect sonics to change a lot. It's likely better to allocate those funds to some other system changes or some records!

>What cables should I use from NOH to amplifier? Any suggestions?

I use a wide assortment (kind of a random selection!) of cables here - not any real suggestions or rules - just pick you favorite flavor.....

>Many thanks,
>Dennis

No Problem. Please give a call when you get the unit and I can explain exactly what you have and answer any questions.

Thanks!

John

________________

mamsterla · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Dec 2005, 02:27 am »

I am interested in your US entity for the new TAPs. My critical features are:

1. HT bypass
2. Remote

If I sneak this into the HT setup - it serves music too, my wife needs to be able to do things from the universal remote

I would love to audition a unit to understand how it would sound in my system, so keep us up to date.

StephanLJ · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Dec 2005, 05:02 pm »

Two weeks ago we were promised pics ???? Where die you hide them John ?

Greetings

Stephan

John Chapman · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Dec 2005, 05:39 pm »

Hello!

Well it was over 4 weeks ago I was promised front panels - and still not here.... Talked to them yet again yesterday and they were to ship and be with me next week. Then we need to anodize and laser engrave so with the hollidays it'll be Jan before I get done. Believe me this is very frustrating...... I'll post pics as soon as I get them!

Thanks!

John

Frank McCrea · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Feb 2006, 01:44 am »

Hi John,

Can you give us an update on where the preamp/linestage currently stands.

Thanks, Frank

John Chapman · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Feb 2006, 03:42 pm »

Hello!

I was doing such a bad job of getting parts here that i wanted to be SURE of the dates I was posting before giving a new update. The saga of the front plates continued and after almost 3-1/2 months the supplier sent one plate that was missing a bunch of holes and looked the parts of it had been made with a dremel..... That was a bad day.... I had to move on to another supplier - which was a shame since I thought I had the perfect guy to make them. He is a hifi product OEM who just put in a new machine last year and knows that things have to be really nice looking in this bussines! That is the hardest part of finding parts manufacturers since most machining, etc only has to be accurate and they are not used to having to machine to a perfect finish. As of last week they were to send the first small batch of plates on the 16th so they should be here this next week. Then I will anodize and laser - a local company I know well. They take about 1 week to get that done - I was in last week to check timing with them. Only other part out there is the remote handset and it is happening - although it too has gone slower than hoped...... Everything else is here or well in hand (ie. I have control on deliveries since I build the parts here)

I am about 2 weeks from pics and 4 weeks from the first shipments - where have you heard that before.... I feel really bad at how long it has taken. Good news is everything has turned out as planned and the result is just as I had pictured when I started the project. .....

My next post on this will be when I have pics - finally!

Thansk!

John