Any info on these? The webpage was pretty sparse.
-Jim
Any info on these? The webpage was pretty sparse.
-Jim
This is the first time I'm discovering these things. I want to learn more about them, but I always liked the idea of a monitor with balls.I had a chance to listen to them extensively at the Capital Audiofest and was very impressed. Dynamic! Played all types of music with aplomb. I'm sending from my phone so I'll write more when I get home.
Wow, stickied!Almost thought it was Galactic Wastebinned....whew :lol:
Cool design! One of those "Why didn't someone think of that before" architectures...feed us feedback ASAP!Now just to be clear James, these are not fully active (tri-amped), but passive 2 way with active bottom, so one can still use their cherished main amp. Similar to the old Infinity Overture 1's. You do need outlets to plug the power amps into, but they accept speaker level inputs on the rear, just like a passive speaker.
Duke of AudioKinesis is competing against an ultra-high end studio design right now with similar architecture (triamped, $9k/pair). Funny how things like this pop up at the same time, kind of like a cough spreading through the room!
Would love to get in on the discussion, but we just got walloped by Irene and have been without power for the last day. Even the cellular data network is pretty much totally down. Hopefully back online tomorrow... :(
Hi Jim,
I've updated the site a bit, but if you have any questions, you can e-mail me at soundfield (preferred), or pm me here. Thnx
Very well thought-out topology, congrats on obviousy getting the details right, judging by the listener comments.
Just visited your website; I expected the price to be three times what you're charging. You are offering a superb value, AJ. I hope the marketplace rewards you for it.
Duke
Again: Definitely a design that makes one wonder why we haven't been buying and listening to it for years already. I suppose one reason is the more recent widespread availability of lower cost plate amps with built-in Xo to the DIY community. I could see this becoming a great industry trend if not maybe even a standard. Let us now officially christen this (powered bass/passive mid/treble) the "AJ" topology...or insert better label here.
Your philosophy has much better potential for success and acceptance in high-end than fully powered monitors. In pro audio fully powered makes some sense because higher SPL is more desirable. In high-end, we likes our favorite amps for mid/treble much more than low cost digital amps for this range. Smart!The former...we'll see, the latter absolutely.
So AJ (sorry if covered elsewhere): is there a passive high-pass mid crossover? What is low-pass bass pole? Is low-pass bass pole tunable?Yes (200hz). 200hz. Yes, though inadvisable. The plate amp is an "off the shelf" unit that has all the controls, none of which should be required other than setting the level to match the main amp.
Also, kudos for highlighting the bass-mode flattening power of employing a sum total four bass sources in the room (your two speakers + two subs). As you mention, the mains in this case, the SFAM1, should absolutely run the powered bass driver full range and NOT be high-passed, resulting in more smoothing effect of the bass modes. This is anti-intuitive for audiophiles not familiar with this technology, which Duke has long espoused and promoted.Thanks. I'll keep an eye out for it. And yes, I have already advised on additional subs placed around the room for spatial smoothing over a wider area, though I also explained that for single seat listener, eq will work fine too (though it cannot fill holes)...if needed.
Two bass sources attached to the mains results in less smoothing than locations other than the mains (IOW four discrete subs), but there is still great potential benefit. I'll send a PM that may help in dual sub placement with your apparently fantastic new speakers.
James, I don't follow you. Are you saying not to high pass the mids (or coax in this case) or not to high pass the bass drivers?
I don't have SAM1's but in my speakers I high pass my monitors at 150hz and use subs to cover frequencies from 150hz on down. The system sounds much better than it did when I was running the monitors full range.
It's really cool that users can toss together even a passive sub and power it with his plate amp!
One quick note, due to warranty issues, the slave output off the amplifiers is not an option right now, until further notice.
Hi James,
That would be a huge stretch, given the Infinity Overture 1's and even Neeko's DefTechs, which feature powered subs.
The niche I wanted to fill, is what I've seen in about a 1000 threads, something along the lines small/bookshelf that doesn't need a sub...followed by 1000 responses of "try this 5.25 - 6.5 inch 2 way"...huh??? :) How on earth is a 6.5" driver going to displace the necessary air for subwoofer frequencies? (physically impossible). Why would you want you midrange driver producing those sort of excursions? (you don't ;) ).
I am convinced that many people just don't like the sound of real bass :)
I thought from AJ's earlier post in this topic that the passive slave output was not an option at this time:
Steve
Mike, I mean Tyson...
What concentric speaker ya'll sleepin' wit in da ghheto lately? :lol:
Almost thought it was Galactic Wastebinned....whew :lol:
Here you go, EDS_.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98017.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91026.0
How are these for nearfield listening??Very good I hope. :D
So I have a Virtue TWO.2 amp so it would just power everything except the 8" woofer right, am I seeing this concept correctly?? and the built in plate amp does the woofers right?Correct.
I'm semi new, so I have questions, how do you connect speaker wire, good old fashion bare wire, two connections...how do you get the signal from the amp to the plate amp and then the speakers using the one amp I'm bring into this situation???
This is a fantastic idea if its what I'm thinking>>>>>
I'm confused. For a pair are there powered woofers in each speaker? Where is the powered woofer in the cabinet and it's output?
I had the pleasure of hearing these speakers at CAF. Regardless of price or size, they were some of the best I heard that day. :thumb:
If I hadn't just bought speakers not long ago, I would have placed my order that day! :D
Wow, judging from the type of gear they had out there, that is very high praise indeed.
Hope you're right :wink:
Got word that the speakers have been delivered. Pretty pumped, and also very impressed that Fed Ex ground didn't even have a day's delay because of the hurricane. Pretty unbelievable, really.
Will have them ready to set up in about 3 hours. Hooray for sound!
Hey congrats! I'm looking forward to your comments once you get them up and running. This is a very cool and interesting design and I hope to hear them someday.
I still can't figure out how he can sell these (active bass, concentric driver from KEF, in a nice cabinet) for $1K without losing money. :scratch:
I knock off liquor stores and rob banks in my spare time.
I still can't figure out how he can sell these (active bass, concentric driver from KEF, in a nice cabinet) for $1K without losing money. :scratch:
Lastly, I secretly (or not so secretly now that I'm mentioning it) hope the early adopters of this speaker don't feel the need to mention it in every post like some of the owners of another popular waveguide speaker (er...Geddes). It's one thing to like your speakers but some of those guys are cult-like and creapy. :thumb:
Lastly, I secretly (or not so secretly now that I'm mentioning it) hope the early adopters of this speaker don't feel the need to mention it in every post like some of the owners of another popular waveguide speaker (er...Geddes). It's one thing to like your speakers but some of those guys are cult-like and creapy. :thumb:
Jeeze guys, I meant it as a compliment. Not trying to get this guy to raise his prices or to imply that $1,000 is a small amount of money (it's a lot of money for me and most people I know!). I was merely pointing out this is a clever design at a very impressive price-point. Don't know how they sound and I don't know if I would even like them, but they appear to be a very good value.
The designer seems like a good guy and I sincerely wish him luck in his venture. Hopefully, the exposure on AC will help launch a very successful business!
Lastly, I secretly (or not so secretly now that I'm mentioning it) hope the early adopters of this speaker don't feel the need to mention it in every post like some of the owners of another popular waveguide speaker (er...Geddes). It's one thing to like your speakers but some of those guys are cult-like and creapy. :thumb:
Listening to some rock...
Acoustic guitars on 'Stranger Things Have Happened' by Foo Fighters are very good. Full and rich, just the right shimmer.
I think we're onto something...
Setup, shmetup. These things sound good. Already waaaaaay better than what I had before in the same spot with the same electronics. I know that doesn't mean much to those who want detailed listening notes, but to me.... it means a lot :).
What is each speaker weight?
Probably deserving of stand quality you'd find with $3k+/pair monitors. What is each speaker weight? Considering the 300W powered 8" they might benefit from clamping or at least good spikes.
Yeah, I'm already thinking that I'll need to improve the stands situation. My $70 Sanus joints are a bit rinky dink for these mama jamas.
Warmth and smoothness. That's what I'm so surprised and delighted by right now. Everyone was saying 'dynamic' and kick ass, so I was expecting that... but the sheer niceness of the sound has me really floored. It just makes me want to hear more.
Ha! If you'll look closely at my pics from the Capitol Audiofest report, you'll see AJ has them on the flimsiest of Lovan Prelude stands, $29.95 on eBay right now, free shipping. I have a pair for lightweight speakers and they're really quite nice for that, but I was amazed that AJ was using them for fairly large monitors, albeit the plate amps were on the floor in his prototype. Didn't seem to hurt the sound in the hotel room.
I'm sure it got lost in translation with the several threads that I've posted about these speakers in, but somewhere I noted they sounded great with a wide variety of musical samples. AJ had some kick ass jazz, some soft and delicate instrumentals, and a guy there had some warhorse classical pieces to play. All sounded superb. However the level of dynamics available from such a relatively small package is the overriding characteristic.
There are some gorgeous ones for sale for $500:o
Aj can you describe the drivers used, and how you came about choosing them? Also the crossover and enclosure construction?Hi RC,
I understand you have a modified Elemental Design's 8".
AJ, any chance of these making an appearance at RMAF? Maybe on loan to a tube amp vendor :D
:o
If you spend $500 on stands, I'm going to send you a bill for $300 for the non-introductory price. :lol:
You did your equipment stand, DIY 'em yourself for a fraction of that, or get a more sanely priced one from an AC vendor. Heck Audio Advisor/PE have nice stands that you could use, just add some matching maple slats yourself.
cheers,
AJ
Check parts express, audiogon or audio advisor. You would be better suited saving your money for a better amp or front end. Five bills is too much for stands IMO.
:o
If you spend $500 on stands, I'm going to send you a bill for $300 for the non-introductory price. :lol:
You did your equipment stand, DIY 'em yourself for a fraction of that, or get a more sanely priced one from an AC vendor. Heck Audio Advisor/PE have nice stands that you could use, just add some matching maple slats yourself.
cheers,
AJ
Excellent review, very well written. Captures what I heard when listening to the speakers. The one thing I didn't get a perfect handle on when I hear them was imaging and soundfield, hotel room and all. This is a deal maker or breaker for me. Sounds like you have good width, fair depth, but not spectacular rear wall melting depth, and the speakers almost disappear. I think you might get some improvements in these areas with modified placement. Try further out into the room, less toe (or more toe), and even a touch wider. Move the listening seat back if possible (no pics of that). Good luck with whatever you end up with in placement and happy listening.
Any thoughts on longer length powercords (10ft -15ft ) for the plate amps?
I see that there are extensions made with IEC connectors.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=110-180 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=110-180)
And I see IEC adapters for extension cords like the Walmart White cord:
http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-PWA421-Female-Prong-Adapter/dp/B000AJM27A (http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-PWA421-Female-Prong-Adapter/dp/B000AJM27A)
Any thoughts... the 6 ft will be too short for me.
Jeff
James,
I understand where you're going with that, but do keep in mind that the baffle/driver response is an integral part of the (low) filter design. One would have to be careful doing what you suggested. WRT to a center for HT, the new KEF Q centers would work just fine too, though yes, one of these could be flipped on its side with a relatively benign effect due to the coincident driver being a point source.
RClark,
The "mod" to the cabinet is the subenclosure for the coax internally. It does further stiffen the cab, but that's not it's main purpose.
Neeko,
Do you ever work or sleep? :lol:
Couple things about soundstage:
1) It's an artificial construct of the stereo recording process.
2) It is highly dependent on speaker/room/listener position, though less so with a controlled directional characteristic loudspeaker.
I eschew artificial "audiophile" ultra-precision to the mm imaging...because it's fake. It simply does not exist in real life. Anyone who attends live music heavily will tell you that.
I even remarked to Gary Gill at Capfest, that it should have been mandatory for all exhibitors to attend the live jazz jam in the lobby to see exactly this effect, since it's quite apparent to me that many strive for this type of presentation.
To each his own of course. But I'm squarely in agreement with what Toole's "Small Room" paper found.
cheers,
AJ
Neeko,
Do you ever work or sleep? :lol:
James,
I understand where you're going with that, but do keep in mind that the baffle/driver response is an integral part of the (low) filter design. One would have to be careful doing what you suggested.
...soundstage (is)...an artificial construct of the stereo recording process...I eschew artificial "audiophile" ultra-precision...imaging...because it's fake. It simply does not exist in real life.
Anyone who attends live music heavily will tell you that.
I even remarked to Gary Gill at Capfest, that it should have been mandatory for all exhibitors to attend the live jazz jam in the lobby to see exactly this effect, since it's quite apparent to me that many strive for this type of presentation.
To each his own of course.
Have the monitors farther apart now. LP is at the apex of an equilateral triangle, again, relatively nearfield.these look great, and i would love to hear them. mebbe when the tour speakers are ready, the speakers will have the feature to connect passive subs to the built-in amps - that's something that would be a requirement for me.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50728)
these look great, and i would love to hear them. mebbe when the tour speakers are ready, the speakers will have the feature to connect passive subs to the built-in amps - that's something that would be a requirement for me.
If this is a requirement for you, which speakers do you currently have with this feature? I know of no speakers that have this ability and don't know a lot of people using passive subs anyway (requiring amplification). There are lots of active sub options that would go well with these speakers (or any speakers for that matter).i actively bi-amp, or tri-amp, and yes, i use passive subs that require outboard amplification. if the soundfields could be hi-passed at ~80hz, then i'd be ok. not sure how it works, w/its active powered woofer built-in.
i actively bi-amp, or tri-amp, and yes, i use passive subs that require outboard amplification. if the soundfields could be hi-passed at ~80hz, then i'd be ok. not sure how it works, w/its active powered woofer built-in.
doug s.
The 8" subwoofer driver does (about) 20Hz-200Hz. The 5.25" Kef concentric drivers take over at 200Hz. Why would you want to high pass the monitors? They make very good bass, IMO.
Whatever the case, you probably could get a custom setup. After all, AJ builds them to order, I believe.
my issue is i actively cross subs to my mains at ~60-80hz, (depending on mains), and there's no way i am gonna run any speakers w/o a true subwoofer set-up. aj could probably let folks like us know the best way to integrated subs w/his speakers. not sure i'd want to be running my subs up to 200hz if they were connected directly to the soundfields; that's another issue that would need to be worked out...
not that i really need any more speakers, haha! but, these seem intriguing.
doug s.
Hi Doug,aj, thanks for the clarification; it is as i suspected. one question about the possibility of future connecting passive subs directly to the sam1 - will they also be driven to 200hz, or is there a way w/the bash amp to cut their response, while the sam1 woofers still go to 200hz?
These speakers are just like any passive, non-powered speaker, except you plug them into a wall :wink:. You simply connect your existing speaker wires (from your main amp) to the speaker input on the back. Adjust the (sub) level on the plate amp to match your main amp...and your done.
That way, if you have your main amp hi-passed at 60hz, that's what the SAM1's will be fed. And your line level sub outputs are free...to feed as many subs as you need.
I highly doubt you will bottom or overdrive the built in subs listening to music. They are designed to be run full ranged in small to medium sized rooms and provide healthy sound pressures..of course dependent on the amp driving them.
HT is another story. Two 8" subs are not going to play back WOTW at reference levels in an auditorium...nor were they intended to do so.
The subs are sealed, not vented, so it is entirely possible for the in room response to extend down into the mid 20's (as shown by the in (my) room response in the CapFest thread). YMMV.
If you need HT ref levels in a large room, you'll just have to wait for the Model 2's or 3's :D
cheers,
AJ
aj, thanks for the clarification; it is as i suspected. one question about the possibility of future connecting passive subs directly to the sam1 - will they also be driven to 200hz, or is there a way w/the bash amp to cut their response, while the sam1 woofers still go to 200hz?
thanks again,
doug s.
doug, why wouldn't you just use the (I assume) outboard amps that you already have for your subs?john, this is certainly the logical choice. but, if the subs could have been driven off the sam1's built-in amps, it simplifies the set-up.
AJ, any chance of these making an appearance at RMAF?
Mine just arrived - gonna be a great weekend!
Jeff
Mine just arrived - gonna be a great weekend!
Jeff
So AJ, your first customers appear to be... AUDIOPHILES!!! :rotflmao: Good luck with your new venture, man.
Neekomax, enjoy buddy. Can't wait to hear your impressions.
Oh boy, oh boy! I have a pair of these being shipped in the next day or two. So far from what I've read, these are going to be amazing. Of course the proof is in the listening. I'm very pleased with the design and the fact that the midrange/tweet array is highpassed at 200hz. That means there are an abundance of modest power amps available to use, including tube amps :D.
I have them about 6 foot off the back wall and about 7 feet apart.
pretty much the right spot for most speakers in my room. Able to hear layers and position of instruments
behind the vocals.
Finally, I think they like power - 60 watts - 100 watts. Don't think flea power would work well.I would have to agree there. It's not that they won't work with low powered amps like some SETs, they simply demand some oomph to get their full dynamic capability into play. No different from any 86-87db speaker.
More to come.
Jeff
Nice! 100w tube monoblocks! Can't wait to hear about how it goes. 8)
The woofer was ripped out? How's that even possible, must have been floating around inside the cabinet?
I just took another look at the foam and box. The foam is very difficult to compress. I can actually run my finger down through the foam and contact the speaker. It's a puncture. Looks like the corner of the box was run into a relatively sharp object which made it's way through the box, foam, and then contacted the speaker corner. You can see a piece of the box that was driven into the foam.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=51428)
Sure it didn't happen the other away around? When the box was dropped the speaker corner went through the foam and hit the floor. The sudden stop tore the woofer loose.
The business next door to me ships Mexican furniture all around the US, one of his customers found an engine block inside a 6' tall armoire, nobody could see the hole in the top of the crate.
Expect the unexpected.
What a freakin bummer! I've been following this thread and your anticipation at getting the speakers.
Shipping speakers is a crap shoot for sure. Hope it works out.
Can you describe the "spherical wavefront" a little more? Is this a driver or crossover thing? Is it true these require minimal room treatment?
Can you describe the "spherical wavefront" a little more? Is this a driver or crossover thing? Is it true these require minimal room treatment?
AJ
I want to know when you're passing through NC again so I can hear them. :D
If I'm humping stuff that far, I'm bringing big bro, for some mma action vs your abbeys in situ. You know that's why they have weight classes right? :wink:
No RMAF for you?
cheers,
AJ
I'm having a go with the SAM1s also. Mine arrived Tuesday unscathed, thankfully. I have them positioned along the long wall, about 3 feet off the wall, toed-in to have the tweeters cross about six inches in front of my head when in my listening position (per AJ's suggestion). True ear candy! Nice depth in the soundstage, sound height projection also impressive, really excellent imaging -- very impressive wall of sound, especially on top notch recordings. Wide wide sweet spot (er, sweetwedge?). My room is largish pushing 5600 cu. ft. and opens to two adjacent rooms, plus I have 2-story ceilings. I'm only driving these, right now, with a Yamaha RX-V3200 receiver, streaming lossless tunes via a Squeezebox Touch. Room filling sound without having to push the amp one tiny bit. I clearly understand the buzz now. It's quite well deserved!
So far I'm liking these more than a couple other pairs I've demoed: ML Electromotions (a bit too polite with rock for me; tiny sweet spot when seated, no sweet spot when standing!) and B&W CM9s (don't do rock well, relatively overpriced, sweet sax though; veiled sound compared to the SAM1s). More to come...
If I'm humping stuff that far, I'm bringing big bro, for some mma action vs your abbeys in situ. You know that's why they have weight classes right? :wink:
No RMAF for you?
cheers,
AJ
If I'm humping stuff that far, I'm bringing big bro, for some mma action vs your abbeys in situ. You know that's why they have weight classes right? :wink:
No RMAF for you?
cheers,
AJ
You know there is a fantastic resource right here under your nose at AC:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58304.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58304.0)
Could you be more specific? What methodology questions? In what way is his outlook skewed?
A heavy dose of Floyd E. Toole, Ph.D. there. While I respect Dr. Toole's work and his motives, and I think everyone should read his papers for the tons of valuable info therein (especially the work on small room acoustics), while reading remember he does have a bit of a skewed outlook and much of his work has not been subject to repeatability. Not to say he's a nutcase or anything, there's some truly groundbreaking work there, but note some of his methodology has had some questions. For some slightly different viewpoints you might try: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm)
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/stereo%20reproduction.htm (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/stereo%20reproduction.htm)
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/publications.htm (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/publications.htm)
Not to be contentious, but his double blind testing was rudimentary at best with tiny sample sizes and poor controls, the skewed part is that he is (was) employed by a speaker manufacturer. This is not to invalidate the reams of fabulous work Dr Toole has done, but a cautionary note to not use him as a single source.
10 ACKNOWLEDGMENT
This paper is the compilation of data from many sources
and the result of discussions with several persons who
volunteered their time to review and comment on the
manuscript. In addition to the Harman International Corporate
R&D Group, Sean Olive, Allan Devantier, Todd
Welti, and Don Keele, the author is grateful to Richard
Small, John Bradley, Gilbert Soulodre, Marshall Buck,
and Brad Gover for their insights.
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Oh no way, you've got a range of speakers coming?If I did, it would be posted in Industry Ads, not here....in Neeko's M1/Dr Toole thread. :wink:
I have linked SLs articles before as well Dan. There is not 100% agreement, but on most cores issues, there is......................(many etc.'s culled for space-saving)
Given all that AJ would you say any coaxial speaker would require no or very minimal treatment, or are you saying there is something special in your design?
The 8" subwoofer driver does (about) 20Hz-200Hz...Why would you want to high pass the monitors? They make very good bass, IMO...
I'm saying barring reductio ad absurdum examples, little if any treatment should be needed if the acoustic source uniformly radiates into the furnished living room (above the schroeder frequency). Coaxial/point source radiation types, in general, have the upper hand here, but unfortunately, most have severe problems on axis. The drivers that I always cherry pick, including the KEFs, do not.
Is there something special about this? No. I don't think so.
cheers,
AJ
Sorry for the absurd questions, barring actual study, one of the pleasures of being an audio consumer is the ability to use the brute force method and just ask. Forgive my ignorance.
In addition, does anyone know what the real minimum wattage needed is? My tube integrated only puts out 15 watts, but has no problem driving my 4 ohm 89db speakers.Hi Mike,
Because most suck. Badly.
The "issues" have never been with the format, always the implementation/engineering (mainly the surround/throat). TAD, KEF and Genelec have finally stepped to the plate. More are sure to follow (think "China").
...and now back to our regular mini-monitor programming.... :D
cheers,
AJ
Hi AJ,Hi Paul,
I am interested in this post from the GR Research mini monitor thread. I thought it might be a bit better to follow up here. I am interested to know what your experience has been with these drivers. How do they compare to the Uni-Q. I know the TAD is super spendy, if I remember correctly they were around $1800 a pair from TAD! Your monitor is very intriguing :thumb:
Paul
the owner of the speakers drove in from Connecticut (what a name for a state) but I always forget names...super nice guy.
AJ I heard your speakers today at a gathering in NJ.....excellent, we didn't do any tweaking as far as setup, they just put them on stands and boom they are really special. I've always loved JBL's but my next speakers will be yours. We need to talk about how to proceed......they will be perfect for my room.....I'll PM you in next few days...Thanks Ed L.Thanks Ed. Hey, the original at CapFest had...JBL subwoofer drivers :wink:. Still not sure if I can top the bass performance of those drivers with the million+ others I've tried. Not sure how many folks would want that JBL logo looking back at them, but you may be the exception :lol:.
Does AJ just have this one model so far or is there another type yet???? They are made so well, everybody that lifted them said they were built out like tanks. We also heard Gallo 3.2?-the ones with the orbs and the big soup pot speaker turned in. A big black covering over it all.."Reference" model...whatever. They were excellent also but AJ's to me just drew me in faster and I found myself marveling at the sound.I have a larger model (not yet on the website and I'm terrible at photos, so the Stereophile one will have to do) http://www.stereophile.com/content/soundfield-audio-0 (http://www.stereophile.com/content/soundfield-audio-0)
Its funny as "Lonewolf" and I were discussing stand mounted monitors we have heard and I asked him "what do I get next?" and we both mentioned these and then found out some were there...very, very nice and as I have heard very affordable for most folks...not I said Ed but most---LOL...hahahahaha :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: A great day that got me thinking of other things instead of my recent loss. Thanks Bill "Pumpkinman" for the ride. :thumb:
AJ Hi whats up ??You've got mail :wink:
charles
Can't wait to see those Tang Band W8-740P drivers move!!
Awesome!Ooooh a tour for a beater pair maybe :thumb:
I wish AJ would send me a pair too. :green:
AJ dropped my pair off at FedEx today :P Can't wait to see those Tang Band W8-740P drivers move!!Don't jinx us Paul, let them deliver, unscathed...before we get too excited :wink:.
I wish AJ would send me a pair too. :green:If you go to CapFest, I'll give you a pair....of Newcastles :green:
Sooo, he went with the TB drivers, huh? Could be a great replacement for the JBL car audio sub I heard them with as this TB sub sort of straddles the car audio/audiophile/HT market. Fs: 28 Hz, I wonder how low they go in AJ's box.Dan, I think we can both agree the JBLs rocked. I think we can also both agree that no self respecting audiophile on earth wants "JBL Car Subs" :o in their rig, SQ, performance, whatever be damned. 'Tis the way of the world.
Awesome!
I wish AJ would send me a pair too. :green:
Ooooh a tour for a beater pair maybe :thumb:
I hope to get my ear on a pair of these soon.I'm gonna be in the Tampa/St Pete area soon,and I've heard alot of good reviews about them,,very good indeed. :thumb:
I have a pair from AJ in NY for demo in the tri-State area. if anyone is interested. Just PM me . These little overachievers are getting some great press and reactions from the average Joe. They are not my Pipedreams but Man O Man they make ya wonder. Very well done AJ.I heard them at the LSAF and was blown away. Now compared to Pipedreams....
charles
I could swap my LS9s for a pair and not be terribly unhappy.
Scott
WWOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW :o
X 2 :icon_surprised:Ok, that's not to say that there wouldn't be some sacrifices. But the LS9's are huge, completely dominate a multipurpose room, definitely test the limits of my wife's patience, and sound amazing. But the Soundfields sound amazing also. Not as big, not as orchestral, not quite as detailed, but excellent imaging, soundstage, and performance ambiance. I think they are the best small speaker I've heard (including Fritz, Harbeth). They run a close second to the GR Super V from 100Hz up. Nothing that I have heard gets the bottom like the V series servo woofers or the LS9.
I think they are the best small speaker I've heard (including Fritz, Harbeth). They run a close second to the GR Super V from 100Hz up.
Sheesh. Do I need to purchase a pair for a tour? :rotflmao:A few NCores, Soundfields, music, crazy audiophiles, and an RV. Road trip :green:
A few NCores, Soundfields, music, crazy audiophiles, and an RV. Road trip :green:
Ok, that's not to say that there wouldn't be some sacrifices. But the LS9's are huge, completely dominate a multipurpose room, definitely test the limits of my wife's patience, and sound amazing. But the Soundfields sound amazing also. Not as big, not as orchestral, not quite as detailed, but excellent imaging, soundstage, and performance ambiance. I think they are the best small speaker I've heard (including Fritz, Harbeth). They run a close second to the GR Super V from 100Hz up. Nothing that I have heard gets the bottom like the V series servo woofers or the LS9.
I've probably tried every 8" sub available (including Scan Speak, etc.), except the GR/Rythmik servo...still no new amp available (only the existing too large one).
AJ,Sure. Always looking. Won't work until they get the new amp sorted out though.
Are you potentially looking at getting the 8" servo sub?
A few NCores, Soundfields, music, crazy audiophiles, and an RV. Road trip :green:
How do you think the Ncore top end would mate up with the BASH low end?It would see a very high impedance highway and seek the nearest off ramp. :wink:
Or is there a way to disable the BASH amp and run the whole thing with an NCORE?No, as the function of the subwoofer plate amp is far more than just amplification. It's also multiple filters. There would be zero benefit and much detriment in doing so.
Sure. Always looking. Won't work until they get the new amp sorted out though.
And it's not like the current version is coming up short here. The Servo might give a bit more headroom/cleanness, but below the schroeder frequency of the room (and often above), bass quality is a room/source interaction issue, especially with a monopole such as these, with LF capability to excite the full spectrum of modes all the way down into the sparse region. At LSAF, leaning forward just a few inches on the sofa made a significant difference, as the wall directly behind it represented a pressure maxima. I had a few folks do just that to demonstrate the point.
Btw, are you in the NY area per chance? Might want to check with Rollo. If not, should have one at Capfest, between myself or Rollo. No need to cyber-speculate when you can experience first hand. :wink:
If I can ever clear the backlog during my spare time (also sparse, with 50hr minimum work weeks), I'll try to cobble up a tour pair (there is already a long ago promised list, so don't get too excited).
I heard Jim's (Hogg) SA1 couple of weeks ago at the NY RAVE gathering and enjoyed listening to them.IIRC, Jim's was the last ED version I shipped. The one Rollo is bringing to the next RAVE has the TB subs. Not sure if you're attending that one.
Thanks AJ, and it's not a concern really, mostly just curious. Your speaker has already got about the highest praise possible, I'm sure the bass produced by the built in amp is fabulous.I actually had my eyes on those Virtues a while back, as a "travel" amp for the audio shows circuit. Perfect size! Plenty enough power as well, unless you have a large room and like higher SPLs. Seemed for a while they had a hard time keeping them in stock.
If I got them they'd be running off a Virtue Two.2 for quite a while anyway (hardly suffering there).
Certainly the ability to control bass volume here is very nice. Goosing the the bass a tad at low volumes fills out the sound nicely.Thanks Paul. Yes, do play with the bass level and toe-in/positioning in general, they are designed for the room to be your friend, not enemy...and feel free to crank them if the wife is out :lol:
I still need to play with toe in a bit, but I just plopped them down on my stands and they sounded great! I also needed a speaker that could handle acoustically challenged room, without the need much in the way of treatments, or changes to room layout. I have a feeling that the SAM-1's will come through in this regard.
But after all this is just after my first few hours with them, so I am certain I will get a much better understanding of them with time.
Great work AJ!!!!!!
This configuration seems to be catching on - probably for good reason:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dynamikks/1.html
AJ tell us about the new HT monitor! http://soundfieldaudio.net/Coming_Soon.htmlIt's a higher than M1 sensitivity (92db) design that can be used for music and also HT where fairly high levels are required. Coaxial driver for very uniform coverage, smooth of axis, etc.
What were the design goals?
Curved PE box so no amp?Yes, curved cabs, so no on board amp, passive as shown.
I thought I would add this info to my review......
I really enjoyed the Monitor 1, so much so I put my money where my mouth is and ordered a pair. :thumb:
When do they arrive?
Probably in about a week.
That's quick!
Thanks for the review, enjoyed reading your impressions. I heard the M1 at last year's Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and thought they were outstanding for the asking price.
Great review! I was wondering how the SAM1's sounded against other speakers.
As for going on "too long" - don't forget, we often pay money to read magazines that go on much longer than you did! :lol: Thanks for taking time.
Glad you enjoyed it. Hopefully it will be useful for someone speaker shopping.
....and I'd gladly accept $$ for writing reviews. :lol:
Soundfield Audio Monitor 1 Review
Hehehe.....sorry if i got a little carried away writing this review.
wanting an opportunity to listen to these monitors one day.+1
+1
Hey, now you're stepping into my territory. :nono: :lol:
No worries here, infact having a thourough review is rather refreshing and it just leaves me wanting an opportunity to listen to these monitors one day. So IMHO, you've done a good job here. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
+1
me too
AJ, I am curious about the design decision to use a bass-mid/tweeter crossing at 200 Hz rather than a mid/tweeter crossing around 500 Hz?
you do realize that this is a coax driver, and its low end goes quite low? this way, the design can use a powered woofer almost like a subwoofer...For a while now I have had an on and off project (mainly off) to DIY a small 3 way for the shelf above my desk. The original intention was a sealed 8", small mid and tweeter in a waveguide but I was having problems getting things to fit. A few days ago a chap that installs speakers showed me the KEF mid/tweeter from the R series and this would fit quite nicely. Like Genelec, KEF seem to follow conventional thinking for a 3 way and crossover around 500 Hz but AJ has opted to use the bassmid/tweeter from the Q series and crossover much lower. I am interested in his objectives and the pros and cons as he sees them.
AJ, I am curious about the design decision to use a bass-mid/tweeter crossing at 200 Hz rather than a mid/tweeter crossing around 500 Hz?Hi Andy,
Many reasons, one of which is the diffraction losses of that sized baffle and the way it can be used to shape the total acoustic response (driver/filter/baffle). No need to cross the KEF driver higher due to it's inherent performance characteristics/strengths, ditto for the subwoofer.Thanks for the reply which looks a bit like a manufacturers answer. Are you still alive on any of the DIY forums?
Thanks for the reply which looks a bit like a manufacturers answer. Are you still alive on any of the DIY forums?
Thanks for the reply which looks a bit like a manufacturers answer. Are you still alive on any of the DIY forums?Well, I am a manufacturer, though the answer is accurate and to the point. What do you think might be missing? Did you understand it?
Hi Aj, what do you think about raal tweeter?Hi Richard,
Would it be possible to integrate the raal in to this design working as a 4 way so the coaxial still remain but the raal will handle the higher notes.Sure. You pay, I build. :wink:
andy, you obviously have not met aj, or read posts he's made to the forums - even tho he's technically a "manufacturer", he does this speaker thing as a hobby. he's an enthusiast first and foremost, and he will give you only straight answers. no gobbledygook here. he's about the straightest shooter you will find, here or anywhere, imo.I have never met AJ but we have occasionally corresponded on other forums in the past. I suspect he will readily admit to being more restrained/responsible in his posting now he is a manufacturer and good luck to him. Whether that makes him a straighter or more bent shooter on an audiophile forum is perhaps debatable.
I have never met AJ but we have occasionally corresponded on other forums in the past. I suspect he will readily admit to being more restrained/responsible in his posting now he is a manufacturer and good luck to him. Whether that makes him a straighter or more bent shooter on an audiophile forum is perhaps debatable.
I have never met AJ but we have occasionally corresponded on other forums in the past. I suspect he will readily admit to being more restrained/responsible in his posting now he is a manufacturer and good luck to him. Whether that makes him a straighter or more bent shooter on an audiophile forum is perhaps debatable.
Whether that makes him a straighter or more bent shooter on an audiophile forum is perhaps debatable.Again Andy, if you didn't understand, or did but need further info, feel free to ask. No secret sauces or magic in any of my designs. Just knowledge of the fundamentals and application.
What do you think might be missing?More on why you made the unconventional choice of a midbass rather than a mid in a 3 way. The radiation pattern is one parameter but it is only one of a set which will of course be weighted by your objectives, constraints and other design choices.
Did you understand it?I believe I understood what you said but I have yet to weight the significance which requires the comparison of a few simulations.
Again Andy, if you didn't understand, or did but need further info, feel free to ask. No secret sauces or magic in any of my designs. Just knowledge of the fundamentals and application.That is good.
Or feel free to use 500hz.If I opt for the R series mid/tweeter coaxial I suspect I will be forced to use something around 500 Hz because it is not a midwoofer/tweeter.
More on why you made the unconventional choice of a midbass rather than a mid in a 3 way.That one was easy. KEF made it for me, by supplying a midbass driver. As such its parameters are optimized for midbass reproduction, sacrifices made to sensitivity and traded for LF capability. A large (2") VC and decent displacement capability also contributes to the filter choice. Hopefully you are advanced enough in DIY knowledge to know the full scope of crossovers, the electrical filter portion and the actual acoustic response as determined by the driver/baffle combination.
The radiation pattern is one parameter but it is only one of a set which will of course be weighted by your objectives, constraints and other design choices.That would have been a minor consideration at those frequencies. Not unconsidered, but minor.
I believe I understood what you said but I have yet to weight the significance which requires the comparison of a few simulations.The baffle diffraction losses (aka "Baffle step") is fairly straight forward. How you choose to address isn't always. I chose to address it in the system design, without throwing what I deemed as unnecessary components and performance limiting. I chose to use the combination of total acoustic response of each driver in that enclosure to account for the filter choice. Hence, around 200hz. Keep in mind these are not intended for console use, but free standing. In a room. Where the Schroeder frequency rarely exceeds 300hz. That too plays a role.
it's debatable, only if you like to argue. :green:
i have been following aj for a long time here on a/c, and and, w/o a doubt, you won't meet a straighter shooter, mfr or otherwise. if he shows restraint/responsibility, it is not because he's not a straight shooter, but because he may be more cognizant of not wanting to insult others when he knows they're full of it. i have found it pretty easy to read between the lines, most of the time, tho... :lol:
ymmv,
doug s.
Thanks for the reply which looks a bit like a manufacturers answer. Are you still alive on any of the DIY forums?
Well, I am a manufacturer...
That one was easy. KEF made it for me, by supplying a midbass driver.Well that clears that one up: a false assumption on my part. I had assumed you had opted for the Q series midwoofer/tweeter over the R series mid/tweeter for reasons I could not see. Perhaps I have made another false assumption in assuming the R series mid/tweeter is available because the installer had them around to show me. Anyway, thanks for the input.
When do they arrive?
What is the efficiency of the combined top two drivers? Thanks.
Thanks Doug...and Saturn, sorry about that, I'll try the magnet grill mod myself
No problem AJ. I know most probably won't even use the grills. Even in my case, with the sub handling frequencies below about 80hz, the grills stay put. It's only when running full range that the grills lose their grip. Think of it as a testament to how much output those woofers are capable of. :thumb:
I ordered these magnets today;
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D61G-N52
I'll post the results when I get them.
Ideally, it would be best if the existing magnets in the grills could be removed and replaced with stronger ones. If you figure out a way to do that without damaging the grills, let me know.
Boy, with your recent shopping deals of the neo magnets and the Shepherd cone gliders, you're hitting bullseyes. Good for you. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
...and the Shepherd cone gliders...
:scratch:
Thanks Robin. Those might work for a variety of speakers, good find Saturn94. For those who might want to use the threaded inserts on their speakers, or speaker stands since we're on the Soundfield M1 thread, by any chance did you notice the thread size on the sliders?
Looking through that thread I clicked on the Herbie's link and among the many useful items there was sliders with decoupling pads under cups for spikes. Hmmm, I might just unscrew my spikes and attach some sliders, but that's just me...
...... Dealing with AJ was a real pleasure, he was helpful, knowledgeable and patient with me.His after sale care has been exemplary.......
I am using a triode electronics trv-a300-se amplifier it puts out 8watts.That is a very nice looking little amp. I've often been asked what SET matches well and apparently these do. Where can they be found/bought stateside?
this is a great combo.
Thanks guys.
That is a very nice looking little amp. I've often been asked what SET matches well and apparently these do. Where can they be found/bought stateside?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_28g02CSWw1E/SuyISUNqoZI/AAAAAAAAAKw/pP_q1pf_6No/s320/trv-a300se_01.jpg)
cheers,
AJ
Thanks guys.These guys have shown at RMAF with Acoustic Zen. Always great sounding setups.
That is a very nice looking little amp. I've often been asked what SET matches well and apparently these do. Where can they be found/bought stateside?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_28g02CSWw1E/SuyISUNqoZI/AAAAAAAAAKw/pP_q1pf_6No/s320/trv-a300se_01.jpg)
cheers,
AJ
Thanks guys.i am not sure i would be looking for $3k amps for your sam-1's, aj...
That is a very nice looking little amp. I've often been asked what SET matches well and apparently these do. Where can they be found/bought stateside?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_28g02CSWw1E/SuyISUNqoZI/AAAAAAAAAKw/pP_q1pf_6No/s320/trv-a300se_01.jpg)
cheers,
AJ
FWIW, I had the SAM1's for about a week as part of the tour, and posted my impressions as part of an essay here. (http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/10/listening-impression-with-cursory.html)
i am not sure i would be looking for $3k amps for your sam-1's, aj..That's because you've never heard them. The M1's, that is... :lol:
That's because you've never heard them. The M1's, that is... :lol:hi aj!
Different strokes for different folks Doug. Me personally, I'm happy with a $400 Yaqin. YMMV
cheers,
AJ
hi aj!
it's not cuz i didn't want to gear them, but you had some more upscale speakers at the caf this past summer. :lol: and they were definitely one of the better sounds i heard at that show. :thumb:
but i am w/you - i think there's plenty of excellent reasonably priced tube gear out there. if i were wanting more spendy stuff, based on my experience w/almarro, i would go w/that. still somewhat moderately priced, especially when you consider what it's compared to...
best,
doug s.
**
I once made the mistake of hooking those aforementioned CAF speakers (with a very complex reactance at the time) to some 0.75 watt ( :o) SETs....for about 20 seconds. Real horrow show. :lol:**
ya, i think for truly "flea power" amps, you need really efficient speakers = like >105db/1w/wm...
doug s.
In this case, it wasn't the quantity of power that was the problem, but rather the "signal processing" caused by the lightbulbs' high output impedance. That is to say, one wasn't hearing clipping, one was simply hearing an ear-bleeding frequency imbalance.
yes, i agree that impedance matching is also important. i once had a pair of 14 ohm 97db-efficient speakers; a well respected ~5wpc 4 ohm amp sounded like crap w/them, when other 4-5wpc amps i had sounded superb w/them, thru 8 or 16 ohm taps that they had...
still, even w/correct impedance, 3/4 of a watt isn't much for anything except soft listening levels with 86.5db speakers, even when only powering the midrange/treble above 200hz.
doug s.
The speaker AJ and I are talking about was probably 10dB more sensitive than that (OEM'ed BMS concentric driver). And the woofer was self-powered.oops - my bad. if they were like the ones aj had at the caf this past summer, then yes - a good deal more efficient. but, as i said, even 5w isn't enough, per my experience, w/a severe impedance mismatch.
oops - my bad. if they were like the ones aj had at the caf this past summer, then yes - a good deal more efficient. but, as i said, even 5w isn't enough, per my experience, w/a severe impedance mismatch.
doug s.
Power is irrelevant here. Amps with 0.001W or 50kW are both going to be be low-fidelity devices if the amps aren't properly designed (very low output impedance) or the speakers aren't specially designed to cover for the basic design flaws of obsolete amps (i.e. extra passive junk in the crossover circuit to flatten the speakers' impedance as much as possible).
Hey, wow, just logged back into AC after a very long hiatus, and I see that this thread seems to have continued up until relatively recently. I'm sitting in front of my still beloved SAM1s, listening to some Me'shell N'degeocello with very deep bass, and loving it! These things cured me of speaker upgrade-itis the day I got them, and I haven't gotten sick since. :D
Yeah, mine still make me smile.
Since you've been absent for awhile, you may not have heard that AJ discontinued the SAM1 and is working on a new model.
tell us more! (http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/ear.gif)
doug s.
Other than the pictures AJ has posted on his website, I really don't know anything about the new models. :dunno:
http://soundfieldaudio.net/Coming_Soon.html
Knowing AJ, I expect they will offer alot for the buck. I'm hoping he will show them at CAF this year.
I've heard the 1812's, very impressive. A lovely blend of sweetness and power.agreed - one of the better sounds at last year's caf, imo. not cheap, tho, like the sam-1's. which is why it would be interesting to hear about the sam-1's replacements...
Spill, or the Salks get it! :icon_twisted:
I told AJ to check this thread out and post!!! :)
I can say he is working on some new things.
No Salks here (anymore). :o
I'm pretty sure AJ knows about the thread. :roll:...and the rules about self promotion :lol:
AJ, how ya doin'! Sad to hear the SAM1s have been retired, there's a lot of people out there who will never get to experience the joy of these things. But I guess that makes mine collector's items, I imagine they're the only pair ever made with the storm trooper white baffles? :lol:. Seriously, though, I'll be amazed if you come up with something better that doesn't cost 3K and weigh 80 lbs. Whatever you do, just make sure you make a version in white, otherwise my girl doesn't let them in the house.
I guess the custom sub-stands for the SAM1s are no longer in the works, then?
The first Monitor 2 pair will be joining my SAM 1's. Espresso stained oak baffle on piano black cabs. I was going to go OB, but when I found out about the rear firing ambiance tweet, I decided to go back to the source. Also at Axpona they rocked. The dude running a very high end room who was there taking a break could not believe what they were doing, as I was leaving I heard the same test track (Eagles, Hotel California) from said high end room and took a quick sec to listen. The SAM-2's acquitted themselves quite admirably.
The first Monitor 2 pair will be joining my SAM 1's. Espresso stained oak baffle on piano black cabs. I was going to go OB, but when I found out about the rear firing ambiance tweet, I decided to go back to the source. Also at Axpona they rocked. The dude running a very high end room who was there taking a break could not believe what they were doing, as I was leaving I heard the same test track (Eagles, Hotel California) from said high end room and took a quick sec to listen. The SAM-2's acquitted themselves quite admirably.
Cool! Will they be used in a secondary 2 channel system?Yup I have two, two channel systems. I tried multichannel, but I just like 2 channel purity both for AV and dedicated music. I should actually should have said the first production pair made and paid for. These will most likely live in the family room, powered by a Class D SDS-254, fed by a mac mini server, with an HK-254 doing AV duty. I have an old 50" DLP tv which I think is going nowhere. The M1's go upstairs, my layout is a duplex down with the family room down, the adjustable bass will allow me to tune for neighbors upstairs, downstairs I can crank :icon_twisted:. Anyhow I will try both locations. The M2s will coordinate well with my wood flooring upstairs though.
Yup I have two, two channel systems. I tried multichannel, but I just like 2 channel purity both for AV and dedicated music. I should actually should have said the first production pair made and paid for. These will most likely live in the family room, powered by a Class D SDS-254, fed by a mac mini server, with an HK-254 doing AV duty. I have an old 50" DLP tv which I think is going nowhere. The M1's go upstairs, my layout is a duplex down with the family room down, the adjustable bass will allow me to tune for neighbors upstairs, downstairs I can crank :icon_twisted:. Anyhow I will try both locations. The M2s will coordinate well with my wood flooring upstairs though.
Paul, those look really nice in that dark stain oak. For a second, the first photo looked like there was a carbon fiber thing going on, ha.
Interesting stands, what are those?
Would love to hear those puppies.
I vote for another roadshow. Any chance of that happening AJ?Hi Donald. I honestly hadn't given this much thought. If there was sufficient interest, I might. Perhaps in a Honey I Shrunk the Kids version, as these a biggish/heavy for a tour, given the pounding FedEx et al would give them.
Yes, there was a trend towards neo drivers for a while, then came the neo fiasco and corresponding prices skyrocketing...which seems to be subsided...a bit. Neo woofers really help!!
I don't get it. Neo woofers?
Woofer magnets made out of an alloy of neodymium, boron, and iron. As opposed to the ferroceramic magnets that have been standard since the 1970s. Neo magnets are much more powerful for their weight, so they greatly reduce the weight of speakers using them.
For a visual comparison, here are two B&C 8" woofers.
Neo:
(http://bcspeakers.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/02/27/17/16/20/232/file)
Ferrite:
(http://bcspeakers.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/02/27/17/29/59/519/8FG51rear.jpg)
So, the M2 woofers use these, I take it?No. Nor the M1. Hence my concerns about tour. More weight = more shipping drama chances. The M1 tour pair took a pounding. These aren't typical 2 way 5-6" monitors either, by a long stretch.
No. Nor the M1. Hence my concerns about tour. More weight = more shipping drama chances. The M1 tour pair took a pounding. These aren't typical 2 way 5-6" monitors either, by a long stretch.
No. Nor the M1. Hence my concerns about tour. More weight = more shipping drama chances. The M1 tour pair took a pounding. These aren't typical 2 way 5-6" monitors either, by a long stretch.
What you need is a Mid Atlantic rep willing to offer auditions to those interested. It would be a tough job, but I'd be willing to volunteer. You have my address to send a complimentary demo pair....
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Then there is the venerable Alnico Speaker Magnet Type, but cost is the issue:
(http://soundup.ru/images/stories/archive/Classic/speakers/funkwerk-klangfilm-l2152p/Funkwerk%20Klangfilm%20L2152P%20AlNiCo%20speakers%205.JPG)
Jim
Well, that and the fact that Alnico is unsuitable for high quality speakers because it's so easy to demagnetize. Every "vintage" speaker that I've heard (JBL, Altec, Tannoy Gold) has had the wooly bass that comes from a weak motor. Since these did not start off weak-motored, one can safely infer the cause was Alnico demagnetization.
Here's a fun story that David Smith (designer of the outstanding Snell XA line, who also worked for JBL, KEF, McIntosh, and PSB) told Lansing Heritage about those obsolete magnets.
"The potential demagnetization of Alnico was also noticed at the time. I distinctly recall Greg Timbers having fun with modifying the parameters of Alnico woofers at will during development: "I think the Q is a little low on this one. Maybe a 2 dB drop in sensitivity would be about right. Lets give it full output for a second from the Crown DC600....Brrrapp. Curve it again and, yes, that's about right." -http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/smith.htm
All magnets can go out of alignment or demagnetize, it is real cheap to have Alnico Magnets re-magnetized:
I have used Orange County Speaker for several recons on Alnico speakers and couldn't be happier. If I ever get a chance to get a pair of Tannoy's, I will jump on it if the price is in my reach....
But we are bird walking, back to the SAM1's
I'm not sure they went with the "old school" alloy just for marketing.I am.
There might be something to the magnetic field / voice coil interaction that affects sound more than we currently understand.Nope. However, there is more to (sound) perception than soundwaves...and that's something audiophiles will never understand.
I remember testing 7" ScanSpeak drivers with a friend a few years back. Identical drivers: cone, voice coil, surround, basket (but one with a smaller magnet) sounded way different.Different (smaller) motor of same material would also measure and perform differently. Not surprising you would hear marked differences, as they would also require different alignments.
Referring to the link posted to Permanent Magnet Selection and Design, page 11 section IX " Modern high coercive force magnetic materials do not significantly degrade over time...... Most magnetic material will encounter degradation from corrosion,heat,or mechanical impact long before their magnetic properties would degrade because of time....."
As most of our loudspeakers used in a home environment are safe from these hazards we will probably suffer degradation to our listening experience from the effects of time on our hearing before the magnets used in our speakers give out.
Scotty
"Go out out of alignment" is very different from "demagnetize." Going out of alignment is caused by some sort of external shock, such as being dropped hard. (Or, I suppose, the weight of the magnet acting on the frame, if the frame is a thin cast variety; I've never personally seen that problem, though. Demagnetization, in the case of Alnico magnets, happens with ordinary use, as the thread to which you linked also states. That flaw, IMO, makes Alnico unsuitable for high-fidelity loudspeakers when we have two much more stable magnet technologies in ferrite and neo. Fortunately, the SAM1 didn't use drive units with Alnico magnets, so it's not an issue for those fine speakers. I presume the SAM2 doesn't use drive-units with Alnico magnets, either.
Alnico is unique among the major magnet technologies used in loudspeakers in the ease with which it demagnetizes.
The Mark Dodd* designed Dual Concentrics (mid-1990s D-series and Saturns for "home;" NFM, Studio and System series for "pro") are vastly superior to the old Alnico-magneted ones. A cutaway of a Dodd-designed Dual Concentric is my avatar.
So if you see, say, a System 10 DMT II, run to go hear it. An old Arden or Berkeley or whatever...sure, it's better than most current speakers because at least the midrange polars are not so bad (but not something well-designed using modern parts, like the SAM1) but it's more a curiosity than anything else.
Mr. Dodd, who designed the "Tulip" phase plug for Tannoy that was such a massive improvement over their old "Pepperpot" design, was later poached from Tannoy by KEF/Celestion, where he designed "Tangerine" phase plug used to such great effect in the concentric mid/tweeter used on, inter alia, the SAM1. IMO, Tannoy has not yet recovered from the loss of Mr. Dodd to KEF.
I presume the SAM2 doesn't use drive-units with Alnico magnets, either.
So, the M2 woofers use these, I take it?
No. Nor the M1. Hence my concerns about tour. More weight = more shipping drama chances. The M1 tour pair took a pounding. These aren't typical 2 way 5-6" monitors either, by a long stretch.
Referring to the link posted to Permanent Magnet Selection and Design, page 11 section IX " Modern high coercive force magnetic materials do not significantly degrade over time...... Most magnetic material will encounter degradation from corrosion,heat,or mechanical impact long before their magnetic properties would degrade because of time....."
That kind of stability is out of scope of the discussion. The problem is not that Alnico sits there and degrades. Alnico's flaw that makes the stuff unsuitable for high-fidelity loudspeakers is that flowing current through a voicecoil it demagnetizes an Alnico structure around it.
And yes, Tannoy uses Alnico (along with that Pepperpot phase plug, which does not perform as well as their more modern Tulip phase plug) in their most expensive speakers, because their most expensive speakers are overwhelmingly targeted to (mostly Far Eastern) retro fetishists.
I guess you know what the half life of an Alnico magnet is?
No, I don't. I and many others know something higher-level, though. We know that the "half life of an Alnico magnet" is irrelevant to its suitability as a permanent magnet in a loudspeaker. So whatever its half-life is, an intelligent person has no reason to care unless s/he is heavily invested in Alnico futures or something like that.
What does actually matter here is the fact that Alnico degrades in the presence of an electromagnetic field. Such as that caused when one puts power to a voice-coil. For loudspeakers, it's obviously better to use a magnet that doesn't degrade like that.
No, I don't. I and many others know something higher-level, though. We know that the "half life of an Alnico magnet" is irrelevant to its suitability as a permanent magnet in a loudspeaker. So whatever its half-life is, an intelligent person has no reason to care unless s/he is heavily invested in Alnico futures or something like that.
What does actually matter here is the fact that Alnico degrades in the presence of an electromagnetic field. Such as that caused when one puts power to a voice-coil. For loudspeakers, it's obviously better to use a magnet that doesn't degrade like that.
Thread officially derailed.... :(
Back on track....hey AJ, where's those demos....lol. :thumb:
Neekomax:
Since you are interested, I post the following link:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=52321.0
Jim
What you need is a Mid Atlantic rep willing to offer auditions to those interested. It would be a tough job, but I'd be willing to volunteer. You have my address to send a complimentary demo pair....
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Getting back on track, Roscoeiii was over last night for a spell, and we had a good time putting the SAM-2 through its paces. I think it was unanimous, the SAM-2 kicks serious but, and really takes things to a whole other level. Incredible. Very cool to have someone over who was so knowledgeable, homeboy has a deep repertoire of cool test tracks. The SAM-2 imaging is quite good, with the ability for those images to hang in the air holographically. Things like wind chimes are scary real. The SAM-1 is not like that, but has other great attributes of course. Who is going to get the second pair :thumb:
Why do I have this feeling that my visit to the Soundfield Audio room is going to cost me? :lol:I'm not charging at the door this year Jim, come on down. :green:
Btw, I take AJ's lack of response to my offer means the answer is "thanks, but hell no!" :lol:
I'm not charging at the door this year Jim, come on down. :green:
No, it means I'm still scrambling to get ready for LSAF.
Tour might happen, though it's not priority #1. Or 2 right now.
cheers,
AJ
Getting back on track, Roscoeiii was over last night for a spell, and we had a good time putting the SAM-2 through its paces. I think it was unanimous, the SAM-2 kicks serious but, and really takes things to a whole other level. Incredible. Very cool to have someone over who was so knowledgeable, homeboy has a deep repertoire of cool test tracks. The SAM-2 imaging is quite good, with the ability for those images to hang in the air holographically. Things like wind chimes are scary real. The SAM-1 is not like that, but has other great attributes of course. Who is going to get the second pair :thumb:
Good stuff, very nice to get some listening impressions finally. A full user review would be welcome anytime, of course, and your perspective as an M1 owner is especially interesting, at least to me.....
When you say "the SAM-1 is not like that", are you referring to imaging properties or instruments like wind chimes sounding "scary real"?
I ask because I think one on the SAM-1's strengths, at least in my setup, is imaging much like you described. Of course I've not heard the SAM-2, but looking forward to doing so at CAF.
Why do I have this feeling that my visit to the Soundfield Audio room is going to cost me? :lol:
Btw, I take AJ's lack of response to my offer means the answer is "thanks, but hell no!" :lol:
Getting back on track, Roscoeiii was over last night for a spell, and we had a good time putting the SAM-2 through its paces. I think it was unanimous, the SAM-2 kicks serious but, and really takes things to a whole other level. Incredible. Very cool to have someone over who was so knowledgeable, homeboy has a deep repertoire of cool test tracks. The SAM-2 imaging is quite good, with the ability for those images to hang in the air holographically. Things like wind chimes are scary real. The SAM-1 is not like that, but has other great attributes of course. Who is going to get the second pair :thumb:
Load your bazooka and fire away. Most readers will likely find this an annoyingly stupid suggestion.
I'm not the only music lover in the world (at least one other is a professional speaker designer) who can and occasionally does audition speakers in mono. You'd be amazed how much you can learn comparing two speakers in mono side by side. Try it yourself sometime. Adjusting for sensitivity difference is obviously critical, as always. I suggest covering the unused speaker with thick comforter for two reasons: damp reflections from working speaker and damp potential passive disruption of active speaker output (unused woofer moves in/out and potentially generates small but obnoxious tweeter signal...try the following: listen to well tuned system with no non-functioning speakers in the room...bring in a box speaker and set it down between the stereo functioning pair and listen to the same music...interesting, no? Thank Ivor Tiefenbrun for this tidbit...one speaker company used to short every input on every unused speaker in the sound room to avoid the distortion described above)
Yes, you can even get a good sense of image and stage qualities. You can tell quite a bit, possibly as valuable as stereo.
Try it yourself with one each of two different speakers.
Possibly AJ could send out one SAM-2 for such audition on tour. Did members contribute shipping cost in earlier tour of now discontinued SAM-1?
Possibly AJ could send out one SAM-2 for such audition on tour. Did members contribute shipping cost in earlier tour of now discontinued SAM-1?
A worthwhile tour if your in the market for speakers. Still have the M-1 here and not disappointed in the least. In our second system fed by Dodd gear. Pipedreams in the main system.
charles
I guess an appropriate time for the question, if it hasn't already been answered, why the discontinuation of the SAM 1?
I guess an appropriate time for the question, if it hasn't already been answered, why the discontinuation of the SAM 1?KEF asked, very nicely, to stop using their drivers.
KEF asked, very nicely, to stop using their drivers.Didn't they sell them to you though?
I obliged. :wink:
cheers,
AJ
Didn't they sell them to you though?No, never directly.
+1
I intended to quote a request for review, but just got the +1. This is for you Saturn.
Let me know what tracks you would like me to compare, and I will be happy share my notes. In my mind this is the easiest/best way to provide you with useful information.
Paul
At the price point you got stuck with that speaker at I wouldn't mourn the loss. Good deal for the consumer, but I never thought sustainable for you, even at $1300.Correct, but my business model is a bit different from the norm. But yes, continuing as such could not support shows and tours, plus maintenance (amp/driver failure etc) etc. without seriously being in the red.
So I've got the reason for the demise of the KEF driver, why did the separately powered bass driver go the way of the dodo? I always thought that was the more groundbreaking innovation. (You can tell me to shut up any time, no offence)It didn't. The M2 is not the replacement for the M1...which will have active bass. It's a completely separate design, like all, it involves tradeoffs. I could certainly add an onboard active subwoofer, but chose not to with this design. I wanted to keep it as an under 60 lbs stand mount.
And why the separately powered rear driver on the 2? Why not wire it in series with an on/off toggle a la Snell? (I should mention I love the rear firing tweeter design)The separate filter network has zero effect of the main (front) drivers and the load presented to the amp. But more importantly, it allows remote operation/variability of the rear driver when used with a remote controlled amp (something as simple as a stereo receiver will do). For me, it is rare that I find a one setting fits all recordings. Quite the opposite. I find that various levels of rear enhancement a much better solution for various recordings, sometimes none being best! How does one do that without a remotely variable driver? Get up constantly during playback and fiddle with it in between? I'd much rather sit in one spot and adjust to taste, on the fly. I figure most others will to once they try it.
Lastly, for now, why the in between size? The question is 1/2 marketing question and 1/2 design question. I'm guessing larger cabinet for SPL as you didn't design a deeper bass extension? For marketing I'm thinking either extend the size to floorstander or integral stand? Thanks in advance for any answers or thoughts you'd be willing to share, and of course wishing the best of luck with the new model to one of the truly gracious gentlemen in high end audio.The size was easy. That's the size required to fit all those front drivers :lol:. The planar is big (almost 10" H). It is taller (but slightly narrower) than the M1, but not heavier. Obviously a bigger stand mount, but there are several that size (I believe PSlate replaced one just that size).
Thanks for the great answers AJ. I can see how I was looking at the M2 as the evolution of the M1 when it's not, which makes much more sense to me. This is good news as I assume that means there will someday be another M1 variation, as your schedule permits.
I suppose we'll just disagree on the rear tweeter. Although I understand the added flexibility, where I come from is owning Snell speakers with a rear supertweeter that has a toggle switch and I always left it on for every recording, from rock to classical. What we'll agree on is the added ambience of a rear firing tweeter, or other drivers a la 1812, opens up the sound so much that I can't imagine why more designers don't include it.
There is a significant history of larger monitors in the marketplace, think Polk, B&W, JBL 4311 (had 'em), and even older Altecs and Tannoys. And there's plenty of stands that fit the M2. But there's a reason why zillions of bookshelf speakers are sold in the sizes popular today, and why Polk, B&W, JBL, Altec, and Tannoy don't offer those sizes anymore. Now of course your marketing model is much different from theirs and the distinction may be a clear advantage as exclusivity and pride of owning something that no one else has (relatively) is a strong suit for you. However the marketer in me says don't make it too hard or complex for the public, we think "Man, extra cables and amps, I gotta buy new stands, I dunno". So I would respectfully suggest in the future thinking about implementing the dedicated stands you mentioned (maybe as option or upgrade) and a more complete solution for the tweeter, possibly an inexpensive Chinese T amp with a little remote, they cost about $10-20 in reasonable lot sizes.
And it goes without saying we know all of the products you bring to us are put together with limited time and I'm sure everything you want yourself doesn't always make it in. It's amazing what you do with that time as it is, the speakers are better than what full time engineers with corporate budgets do, I hope you'll take my suggestions as constructive.
Interesting points, my man.
Seems to me that one of the features of Soundfield Audio up to this point has been something of a conscious disregard for a lot of the marketing calculations that normally go into building and branding audio gear, in favor of science-based implementation of available technology using utilitarian design principles- IOW 'get the best sound, with the least extraneous costs.'
Now, for me, it was kind of a no brainer when the SAM1s were offered, because they offered these sound design principles without the magic audiophile markup (a la 'marine' equipment... go to a marine supply store and see how much a bag of screws cost :o). And this is possible because, correct me if I'm wrong here, but AJ's prime motivation, even second motivation, is not the money, or being able to send his kids to college with the proceeds of his speaker sales.
So, I don't know if I'm correct about this, but it seems to me that as long as AJ's making and selling this stuff, better get some of it, because it can't be a forever 'business' model.
I'm not charging at the door this year Jim, come on down. :green:
No, it means I'm still scrambling to get ready for LSAF.
Tour might happen, though it's not priority #1. Or 2 right now.
cheers,
AJ
So how was LSAF? Hope it went well for you.It was fun. Check out the LSAF threads (others had even more fun!).
So I would respectfully suggest in the future thinking about implementing the dedicated stands you mentioned (maybe as option or upgrade) and a more complete solution for the tweeter, possibly an inexpensive Chinese T amp with a little remote, they cost about $10-20 in reasonable lot sizes.
What time is it? Time to start a Soundfield Audio Monitor 2 thread. Somebody please start a new thread.
What time is it? Time to start a Soundfield Audio Monitor 2 thread. Somebody please start a new thread.
Thanks guys, promo checks are in the mail, 50 bucks a piece as per usual :lol:
Was wondering who resurrected this thing...checking a pm I got and saw this, whoa.
Unfortunately no LSAF for me again this year due to Axpona being weekend before. What a bummer. :(
cheers,
AJ
Sorry to hear that Dallas is not in your plans. Hearing your SAM1's a few years back was the surprise of the show for me... in a very, very good way.Hi Scott,
Scott
How about CAF this year?
Guys,
is this the proper ranking?
1. Monitor 1
2. Monitor 2
3. VSFT-1
4. VSFT-2
5. VSFT-3
6. 1812 Overtures
Speaking of the SAM1 though... just grooved over to the Soundfield Audio website, and it says that a 'new improved' M1 is in the works. Hmmm...
AJ, any details for the fans?
Possibly. We'll see. Was going to skip Axpona to attend at least CAF, but plans changed (Promoter pulled a Godfather on me).
cheers,
AJ