Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond

neobop · « **Reply #340 on:** 19 Aug 2013, 12:47 pm »

Quote from: dlaloum on 19 Aug 2013, 04:56 am

Most of those specced to 45k sound like Quad cartridges - they are all line contact... the 45kHz is the required bandwidth for Quad CD4...

I wonder whether those 45kHz bandwidth specs are all measured at 100pf/100kOhm (the Quad CD4 loading standard)?

The LS500 looks like an AT12 - and perhaps it is in fact a rebadged AT12sa with an LC rather than Shibata stylus?

The LC was developed after shibata and a few carts were still spec to 45K or beyond with recommended 47K load. Although quad never became the norm, there were quite of number of units sold and people didn't just throw them away. It faded out gradually and AT kept making extended band carts for awhile.

Yes, specs look like a 12S, 14S, but where does 1200 ohm R come from? There are a couple of factors unknown to me besides inductance. Where do these VE library specs come from, the owners manual? If so, it would say beryllium if it was. I know there are mistakes in the data base and this info doesn't add up. There were a couple of carts that exceeded 45K - the 15/20 - beryllium/shibata (also low R) and 1 or 2 others, later I think.

Is this the Sarah Palin maverick cart? What does LS stand for, inductance suppression? Maybe it has an inductance cancellation device, a coil to ground on each ch, but my 8 Ball says, "Highly Unlikely".
Where does this leave us?

Don grb,
Maybe when David is up and running again, you could send one to the Dlaloum Inner Space Testing Laboratory in New Zealand?

At this time I have to say, "Unknown, insufficient evidence". It looks like a 12E?

neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #341 on:** 19 Aug 2013, 12:57 pm »

Neo,
From my understanding the LS stands for lab series. I'll measure the inductance this am.
The info from vinyl engine appears to be from an owners manual.

Don grb

dlaloum · « **Reply #342 on:** 19 Aug 2013, 01:10 pm »

I'm in OZ... as in Oztralia.... the Kiwis are across a bit of sea and a wee bit south.... and the relationship is a bit like Canadians and US-ians.... (Americans is such an imprecise term!)

Yes the specs are from the VE copy of the manual

LS stands for Lab-Series.... and the manual includes the LS100/200/300/400/500

With regards to the LS500 and 1200ohm

I looked back at the AT11/12/13/14/15/20 manual

the following cartridges all have 1200ohm:
AT11E
AT12E
AT12XE
AT13ea

They are also all 670ohm
Based on my calculations that would make their impedance circa 6800ohm @ 1Khz

Also the diagrams in the manual showing the LS500 body look exactly like the AT11's and AT12's that I have in my spares box....

I would need to see photos of the LS500 to confirm, but honestly every spec we have on this thing is consistently saying it is the same body as the AT11/12/13 high inductance models. (the AT12Sa was the lowest model of the low inductance ones, which included the AT14Sa, AT15XE, AT15Sa, AT20Sla)

No mystery here - and if fitted with the respective needles I expect it would perform as per the other relatives of the 1200ohm/670mH AT family....

bye for now

David

neobop · « **Reply #343 on:** 19 Aug 2013, 01:44 pm »

Quote from: dlaloum on 19 Aug 2013, 01:10 pm

Yes the specs are from the VE copy of the manual

LS stands for Lab-Series.... and the manual includes the LS100/200/300/400/500

With regards to the LS500 and 1200ohm

I looked back at the AT11/12/13/14/15/20 manual

the following cartridges all have 1200ohm:
AT11E
AT12E
AT12XE
AT13ea

They are also all 670ohm
I would need to see photos of the LS500 to confirm, but honestly every spec we have on this thing is consistently saying it is the same body as the AT11/12/13 high inductance models. (the AT12Sa was the lowest model of the low inductance ones, which included the AT14Sa, AT15XE, AT15Sa, AT20Sla)

No mystery here - and if fitted with the respective needles I expect it would perform as per the other relatives of the 1200ohm/670mH AT family....

bye for now
David

None of those high R/L models approach 45K. You assume AT fudged the spec or mistakenly put 12S bandwidth on the spec. Why then would they change the lower range from either 10 or 15Hz (12S/Sa) to 5Hz ?

I'm not assuming anything, including the reliability of inductance measurements taken with a meter. If the bandwidth spec is wrong, what about the others? You may be right - a 12_ LC, and it may be most likely, but why is R 1200 instead of 670? Still makes no sense.
neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #344 on:** 19 Aug 2013, 02:10 pm »

FYI,
I measured the inductance of one body at 970 mH. It seems even higher than the 13EA based on the reports. I've not measured the 13EA.
Don grb

Grbluen · « **Reply #345 on:** 19 Aug 2013, 02:24 pm »

Oh, I almost forgot, it seems if I understood the conversation correctly, that adding a Beryllium cantilever to the cartridge would almost be a detriment. It sounds as if the performance of this cartridge is dependent on the cantilever resonance. Agreed?

Don grb

neobop · « **Reply #346 on:** 19 Aug 2013, 04:56 pm »

Quote from: Grbluen on 19 Aug 2013, 02:10 pm

FYI,
I measured the inductance of one body at 970 mH. It seems even higher than the 13EA based on the reports. I've not measured the 13EA.
Don grb

Okay, it's probably like the 13. According to your link on p 15 - Elliott Sound Products, meter inductance readings tend to read high because of the meter's resistance. I also wonder about resistance readings, could they be off too? 1200 ohms seems a far cry from 670. To add icing on the cake, are those 670 figures, meter readings also?

Quote from: Grbluen on 19 Aug 2013, 02:24 pm

Oh, I almost forgot, it seems if I understood the conversation correctly, that adding a Beryllium cantilever to the cartridge would almost be a detriment. It sounds as if the performance of this cartridge is dependent on the cantilever resonance. Agreed?

Don grb

No, it's just a factor but one that contributes to the end result. The 12S, 14S have alum cantilevers and response to 45K. That's the thing, all this stuff overlaps and it gets confusing, especially if some info is wrong or missing.

Given your system priorities, I would guess this isn't the right cart. The 140LC is a nude LC on a tapered cant, any different, too mellow?
If so, can you change the loading to a higher value? Have you messed with shunt capacitance? Going above recommended < 200pF should make it brighter. Why is system mellow, speakers? amplification? both? That could be important.
neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #347 on:** 19 Aug 2013, 06:50 pm »

I think it is a combination of both, the amp and speakers. When I started out with this system, I did no research whatsoever. I didn't have a turntable, just a cd player. It was only when couldn't tolerate more than fifteen minutes or so of the cd, that I started looking at vinyl again. This cartridge actually sounds pretty good, but you know how we are, even if something isn't broke, fix it anyway. I'm not actually sure how far down this road I want to travel, because I haven't experienced listening fatigue in a long time. I'm mostly just trying to learn.

Don

neobop · « **Reply #348 on:** 19 Aug 2013, 08:04 pm »

I have a feeling that you should leave the cart as-is. With any MM/MI you can tweak the sound by changing the load. In general, changing resistance to a higher value like 60K will make it brighter. Lowering the value, to like 30K, will make it less bright. With most phono stages in order to raise the value you have to replace the load resistors. To lower you can use other resistors in parallel - loading plugs or soldered across the input. A parallel resistance calculator can be used to figure out what R value to use.

Adding capacitance will lower the high frequency resonance. How much depends on the inductance. This lower resonance combines with the response of the cart and augments the treble and rolls of the extreme high end (usually). Unlike resistors, capacitors can be added directly. Capacitance load is capacitance of arm wire + cables + preamp. Check out this article written by an EE:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/load_the_magnets_e.html

I'm not sure of your knowledge with playing with this stuff. Please don't hesitate with questions. If you're looking for a better cart we can talk about that too. If your system is evolving, your priorities might change also.
neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #349 on:** 15 Sep 2013, 06:29 pm »

Ok Neo,
I've spent a fair bit of time with the "LS540lc" Frankencombo, and I just can't resist further experimentation. There is a retailer that lists the 155lc beryllium, so I thought is do a "test purchase for an AT-140LC (I could use a backup). Sure enough, the guy sends me a stylus which was chipped (probably didn't think I'd notice). So my question is, have you compared the Boron cantilever to the Beryllium? The 155lc was my first choice because of a better compliance match. I might have to settle for the 150mlx and resort to replacing the rubber compliance washer. I was never trying to experiment for "tone controls", but rather exploring the potential of the cartridge. So, if you have any thoughts on the Beryllium vs Boron, I'd love to hear them!
Best wishes,

Don

neobop · « **Reply #350 on:** 16 Sep 2013, 12:05 am »

Hi DonGrb,
You've been running an LS500/140LC ?
No longer trying to achieve a brighter sound, looking for ultimate performance.

Beryllium is lighter than boron and it's also more flexible, so in that respect it's more like aluminum - dynamic swings, warmth. Because boron is more rigid and less flexible, it's more exact.

If I can make a suggestion, I think you should consider a low inductance/impedance body like the ones listed above - 12S, 14S, 15/20. The inexpensive AT-100E has a low inductance body, the same as a 150MLX. Have you tried a 150?

You're using a low mass arm? The 155LC has a cu of 16 @ 100Hz. Max VTF is 1.6g. The 150MLX is 10 cu @100Hz. I think max VTF is .2g higher?

neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #351 on:** 16 Sep 2013, 12:31 am »

Thanks Neo,
I'll try the 150mlx, as it's really the cantilever/stylus that I'm after.
I'll try the alternatives as soon as I see where this road leads. If I'm sure the 150 isn't better, I'll transplant stylus into a grip suitable for the ls500. Regardless, this was just the info that I was after.

Best wishes,
Don grb

Grbluen · « **Reply #352 on:** 4 Oct 2013, 02:04 pm »

Ok, Frankencart pt. II.
I've just completed my second transplant. I've transplanted the 440MLa onto the grip for the LS500 and I'll have to say I'm pleasantly surprised. There's a lot more detail with the 440 as compared to the ATN140LC. Next up the 150MLx. I've done some research and it appears there is quite a bit of difference between the 150 and the 440. Stay tuned...
Don

dlaloum · « **Reply #353 on:** 4 Oct 2013, 03:02 pm »

I would expect the 150MLx to be smoother and more even - right across the frequency range (based on the behaviour of my 15ss....)

Looking forward to hearing how it goes!

neobop · « **Reply #354 on:** 4 Oct 2013, 03:16 pm »

Interesting stuff DonGrb,
All of this is going on the LS500 body? Do you have other AT bodies?

I tried the ATN140LC on a 440 body and it seemed similar, maybe without quite as much detail. The 140 is a higher cu stylus - 16 cu I think. Could that have been a factor? I was using a low mass arm.

Any changes in the system?
neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #355 on:** 4 Oct 2013, 03:52 pm »

Neo and Dl,
The only other unrelated AT body would be the Clearaudio Maestro. Lol!
Compliance could be a factor. Compliance was part of the reason that I wanted to try the 155LC.
I'll have to run the resonance checks to be sure. I'm not quite sure exactly what happens to compliance once you start transplanting styli. There really is no before and after with this sort of thing. Based on what I've read and what you guys have said, I'm expecting way more from the 150mlx.
As an aside, 200 power isn't really good enough for the microline styli. I can examine the tip easily enough, but I don't think I'll be able to discern the wear facets.
Don grb

Grbluen · « **Reply #356 on:** 5 Oct 2013, 05:09 pm »

I was posting from work yesterday and completely forgot about the the Signet TK5ea and the Signet MR 5.0 me.

Don

dlaloum · « **Reply #357 on:** 6 Oct 2013, 12:47 am »

Also the precept series....

Grbluen · « **Reply #358 on:** 6 Oct 2013, 01:00 am »

Dl,
The Maestro and the two Signets are the other sorta Audio Technica bodies that I own.
I haven't picked up any Precepts (yet)

Also, the 440mla combo is extremely sensitive to VTA. This stylus is probably more sensitive to vta than any cartridge I've owned!

neobop · « **Reply #359 on:** 6 Oct 2013, 04:05 pm »

Quote from: Grbluen on 4 Oct 2013, 03:52 pm

Neo and Dl,
The only other unrelated AT body would be the Clearaudio Maestro. Lol!
Compliance could be a factor. Compliance was part of the reason that I wanted to try the 155LC.
I'll have to run the resonance checks to be sure. I'm not quite sure exactly what happens to compliance once you start transplanting styli. There really is no before and after with this sort of thing. Based on what I've read and what you guys have said, I'm expecting way more from the 150mlx.
As an aside, 200 power isn't really good enough for the microline styli. I can examine the tip easily enough, but I don't think I'll be able to discern the wear facets.
Don grb

You have a Maestro? That's a lower inductance AT motor and I think your efforts might be better spent on that one. If you have an ATN150MLX, then you could have the original Maestro - boron/ML, except for compliance. That's assuming your Maestro is without orig stylus. When you substitute a stylus the cart takes on the compliance, VTF of the new stylus. A successful transplant should retain the original compliance of the stylus.

Some people think that holding the stylus firmly against the plug during transplanting, or torqueing the compliance screw, will affect compliance. I don't think so. I think compliance is determined by the cantilever itself and the rubber donut.

200X is a bit light for wear examination on an AT ML. They are some tiny diamonds. With the right lighting you coulp probably get a good idea. You need a high intensity light on either side of the tip, and view it from above. Check out Sparky's sticky on Karma for some 200X wear photos.

Tell me about your Maestro and where you're at with these high inductance ATs. BTW, the TK5Ea is also high inductance. Is this experimentation?
neo