AudioCircle
Community => Regional Audiophiles => Mid-Atlantic Audio Circle => Topic started by: mix4fix on 8 Jan 2021, 06:56 am
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2021 Capitol Audiofest
November 5th - 7th, 2021
Twinbrook Hilton
Rockville, Maryland
https://www.capitalaudiofest.com/home
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CAF sent an email, so I believe it is on track.
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In addition to already requiring masks, CAF now also requires that all participants provide a COVID Vaccination Card or recent (One week or less) negative test to enter. If you have any questions you can always contact us directly.
:thumbdown:
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I'm not sold. I have sat in many Capital Audiofest listening rooms. Almost all would fit the definition of 'close contact'- less than six feet for fifteen minutes or more- to a 'T'. Only the large ballrooms are capable of maintaining a reasonable level of social distancing. I have lost interest in shows in general as the target demographic has gone further and further 'upscale' and (in the case of CAF) the headphone space (the one area of the quality audio market that is actually growing) has been almost nonexistent at recent shows. Good luck to those who go; be safe. In my observation precautions often receive more 'lip service' than actual commitment, and people aren't careful. Not worth the risk to me.
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I am curious on who would show up or not show up.
Regardless of medical status, it is none of their concern if one is vaccinated of not. Listening to crappy music on overpriced audio gear has nothing to do with health. We experience the same people throughout our daily lives in stores, airports, and the like with or without masks, with or without vaccinations, and with or without social distancing. Nothing is different.
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First time in the history of the world, the people who are supposed to be immune from a vaccine are afraid of getting said disease from people who aren't immunized.
I hope they actually hold the show so that people can get out and about.
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Gentleman please, one would think you might read the show info before posting. Attendees will be required to show proof of vaccination or a recent negative test and a mask wearing mandate is in place. These are reasonable precautions in such a crowded venue with people sitting and walking cheek to jowl throughout the hotel. I just received my booster, but doubt I'll be attending. I'm all for mask wearing and support the mandates, but personally I hate wearing a mask and have no interest in paying to wear one. I'd of course comply if I was there. The hotel is fully booked so I don't think they'll miss me. As far as enforcement, I agree with coop, I doubt anyone will be told by hotel or event staff to put on a mask, individual exhibitors may enforce it in their rooms. All the best to those who go, it seems they're doing what's reasonable for safety, let us know how it goes.
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Gentleman please, one would think you might read the show info before posting. Attendees will be required to show proof of vaccination or a recent negative test and a mask wearing mandate is in place. These are reasonable precautions in such a crowded venue with people sitting and walking cheek to jowl throughout the hotel. I just received my booster, but doubt I'll be attending. I'm all for mask wearing and support the mandates, but personally I hate wearing a mask and have no interest in paying to wear one. I'd of course comply if I was there. The hotel is fully booked so I don't think they'll miss me. As far as enforcement, I agree with coop, I doubt anyone will be told by hotel or event staff to put on a mask, individual exhibitors may enforce it in their rooms. All the best to those who go, it seems they're doing what's reasonable for safety, let us know how it goes.
FYI: CAF website doesn't get updated on the regular.
They can not discriminate if you do not have the vaccine or not. It is discrimination. It is none of their business. No other business asks for it. Why should they?
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Hi,
Thanks for the information about the show. I'd like to make it there one day and hopefully not too long into the future :).
Cheers Rod
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Do a google search, there are a host of venues in DC that are requiring proof of vaccination
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FYI: CAF website doesn't get updated on the regular.
They can not discriminate if you do not have the vaccine or not. It is discrimination. It is none of their business. No other business asks for it. Why should they?
It's not really a question Steve. Businesses all over the country are mandating vaccines, and especially venues like concerts, which CAF is very close to when talking about Covid-19 mitigation. We just had The Stones here and vaccines were mandated, you couldn't even get in with a test. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't get a vaccine that's monumentally safe and effective when 700,000 have died from the disease it protects you from, but you have the freedom not to and just get a test if you wanna go, so again, I don't see the issue.
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It's not really a question Steve. Businesses all over the country are mandating vaccines, and especially venues like concerts, which CAF is very close to when talking about Covid-19 mitigation. We just had The Stones here and vaccines were mandated, you couldn't even get in with a test. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't get a vaccine that's monumentally safe and effective when 700,000 have died from the disease it protects you from, but you have the freedom not to and just get a test if you wanna go, so again, I don't see the issue.
You need to understand what Freedom means. Showing proof of vaccination or test result is not freedom. This is "Papiere, Bitte" for the modern age. Verstehen?
First time in the history of the world, the people who are supposed to be immune from a vaccine are afraid of getting said disease from people who aren't immunized.
Somebody explain that to us. You are immune. Why are you guys worried about? The non-vaccinated should be the ones worried.
I hate masks as well. but, I tolerate that for now. But, I can always rip off that mask, take a break, and put on a fresh one. You can undo being injected.
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Seeing people rail against the vaccine is like watching them rail against seatbelts. It's so obviously a benefit it's hard to believe people won't do it. What happens when you get in to an accident while exercising your 'freedom' to not wear a seatbelt? The same thing that happens if you are exposed to covid without the vaccine. You are more likely to die. Except with covid, you're much more likely to take out the rest of your family and friends too.
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Certainly safety is on everyone’s mind right now, both vaccinated and unvaccinated. But one can’t help but wonder about the success of the show. Lots of vaccinated people don’t seem to feel safe for some reason and won’t attend. And unvaccinated folks are not allowed. That’s a lot of potential customers eliminated right there.
I’ve got to wonder if future “shows” will be a bit like the French eating their sack lunches in front of the cafes instead of patronizing the cafes. Perhaps the future of shows will be smaller, private club type shows. I think these used to call these “dealers”. Or parties...
Then you have the train wreck of the “virtual” shows. That’s what I need right about now, more screen time. 🙄
Glad I have had my fill of shows over the years so I don’t feel like I’m missing anything.
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Seeing people rail against the vaccine is like watching them rail against seatbelts. It's so obviously a benefit it's hard to believe people won't do it. What happens when you get in to an accident while exercising your 'freedom' to not wear a seatbelt? The same thing that happens if you are exposed to covid without the vaccine. You are more likely to die. Except with covid, you're much more likely to take out the rest of your family and friends too.
If I don't wear a seat-belt, I am the only one that has deal with the physical consequences if I crash. If I don't get vaccinated, I am the only one that have to deal with consequences of getting so-called sick. But, that is not happening. Whether I get the vaccine or tested is irreverent, I am being forced to prove it or be discriminated on. Do i have to enter from a separate entrance? Do I have to sit in the back of the listening rooms?
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Please remember a couple things here. You can go without a vaccine if you get tested, I think I remember within 3 days or something. Everyone, vaccinated or not, has to wear a mask, there's no discrimination. You are not forced to go, if you don't like the rules, just don't give them any money and do something else that weekend. Lastly fellow members, we do want to stay away from politics, public health is okay I assume.
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If I don't wear a seat-belt, I am the only one that has deal with the physical consequences if I crash. If I don't get vaccinated, I am the only one that have to deal with consequences of getting so-called sick. But, that is not happening. Whether I get the vaccine or tested is irreverent, I am being forced to prove it or be discriminated on. Do i have to enter from a separate entrance? Do I have to sit in the back of the listening rooms?
So, you're saying a business does not have the right to refuse service to you for any reason that they see fit? That seems like you are encroaching on the rights of that business. Aren't you in favor of free enterprise?
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So, you're saying a business does not have the right to refuse service to you for any reason that they see fit? That seems like you are encroaching on the rights of that business. Aren't you in favor of free enterprise?
If one can't discriminate against skin color, age, or sex, why is our medical condition all of a sudden allowed to be? Does CAF need to know my blood sugar measurement, or my A1C as well? I am a non-smoker, so I will admit that.
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If one can't discriminate against skin color, age, or sex, why is our medical condition all of a sudden allowed to be? Does CAF need to know my blood sugar measurement, or my A1C as well? I am a non-smoker, so I will admit that.
Skin color, age and sex are not communicable diseases.
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Skin color, age and sex are not communicable diseases.
Cold/flu or pink eye is transmittable.
Shouldn't the vaccinated be safe? Shouldn't the un-vaccinated be the only ones to worry? Does vaccinated or tested people automatically mean that they can't pick up Covid when they stop for gas, coffee, or to use the toilet on their way to CAF? What about the attendee or the staff who took the Metro to the hotel?
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As a society we require school children to be vaccinated against many deadly or crippling diseases. Here's the list for Philadelphia:
Kindergarten: Tetanus, Diphtheria, Pertussis, Polio, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Hepatitis B
7th Grade: Meningococcal conjugate vaccine
No vaccine, no education, no exceptions. This is a public health issue. It's not about personal freedom, it's about life itself.
I turn 70 during CAF. Just got my flu vaccine, should be getting my COVID 19 Pfizer booster shot this week.
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I couldn't agree more with the social responsibility aspect of it.
Just got my 3rd dose this weekend and am not feeling quite as beat up as the second dose left me.
As for this event, i'm going to pass.
This vaccine isn't 100% and too many diseased humans milling about.
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I couldn't agree more with the social responsibility aspect of it.
Just got my 3rd dose this weekend and am not feeling quite as beat up as the second dose left me.
As for this event, i'm going to pass.
This vaccine isn't 100% and too many diseased humans milling about.
Funny, the first two gave me virtually no reaction, a little sore arm, maybe a little fatigue. The booster hit me like a truck, fever, nose that ran like a spigot, throwing up, arm felt like a baseball bat hit it. 24 hours later gone like it was nothing.
So mix4fix, I assume you're not going now?
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Funny, the first two gave me virtually no reaction, a little sore arm, maybe a little fatigue. The booster hit me like a truck, fever, nose that ran like a spigot, throwing up, arm felt like a baseball bat hit it. 24 hours later gone like it was nothing.
So mix4fix, I assume you're not going now?
I had my (Pfizer) booster last Wednesday (got my shots early as I had triple bypass surgery less than a year ago and did not care to get another tour of a hospital). Other than a sore arm (still mildly sore), I didn't get any reaction. I didn't have much of reaction to the first two (sore arm mainly and slightly more sore than the flu vaccine I had a few weeks before the recent COVID one) and I might have had some fatigue but I really couldn't tell as after the surgery I had to forego sleeping in a bed for over 2 months (so I was tired anyway between that and the pain). Probably not going to go to any audio shows unless COVID gets more under control and more people are vaccinated. There's only about 57% of the US fully vaccinated at this point. Maryland is almost 65%, Virginia 61% and DC 62%. So the DC area is at least ahead of the national trend. Experts have indicated (depending on which one you follow) that anywhere from 70-90% of the population would need to be vaccinated for herd immunity. I'm not sure any of that will happen anytime in the next year.
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No talk of natural immunity? Enjoy your shots and boosters
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230646)
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No talk of natural immunity? Enjoy your shots and boosters
I'm not sure how that gets managed? I believe on average about 40% of the US population is what they consider in the higher risk group. I'm sure depending on the event (e.g. sports venue, trade show, etc.) and area those will vary. I'm fine with whoever wishes to schedule an event and attend (their choice). I'd think from the audio shows I've attended there would be a greater than average higher risk group. I know someone who is originally from Scotland (and is visiting there right now) and was vaccinated and also had to submit a test (and had to sweat and re-take a bad test at the last minute) as well. Businesses and individuals can of course make their own choices. No one can force anyone to do or not do something (at least in the US unless it is a condition of employment).
Given various things to catch up which were delayed over the past year while I went through stuff, I'm certainly not in a rush to either attend anything or travel via air (have more than I can handle to get done in the immediate future) and I'm not going to drop those things to attend something that can have an adverse impact on me. When I get through those things I need to get done (probably 6 months or a bit more), I can always re-examine where things stand. Where things stand right now, I won't (personally) attend an audio show where both the staff and attendees are not required to be vaccinated. If shows go away (like RMAF for those and other reasons) so be it. COVID has hit many industries hard (e.g. https://www.nrn.com/fast-casual/datassential-more-10-us-restaurants-have-closed-permanently) and as the link I just posted more than 10% of restaurants are permanently closed. The restaurant industry is not alone as the Wall Street Journal reported six months ago that more than 200,000 businesses have closed due to COVID and by some estimates about one out of every three small businesses are gone.
So of course everyone can do as they desire but it should be expected that if conditions don't improve their will be additional businesses which may disappear. While unvaccinated people present more of a risk to other unvaccinated people, that does not mean they pose zero risk to vaccinated people. Just like there are some (as indicated in this thread as well as other places) who won't attend such an event without precautions in place to protect their well being, there are those who will not get vaccinated. No sense in debating that or taunting people for making whatever choice is best for them. Enjoy the show and take pictures for the rest of us.
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Cold/flu or pink eye is transmittable.
Shouldn't the vaccinated be safe? Shouldn't the un-vaccinated be the only ones to worry? Does vaccinated or tested people automatically mean that they can't pick up Covid when they stop for gas, coffee, or to use the toilet on their way to CAF? What about the attendee or the staff who took the Metro to the hotel?
Yes, those things are all still risky/dangerous. They are dangerous precisely because not everyone is vaccinated. SMH.
There's only 2 ways to get to herd immunity:
1. Everyone gets vaccinated
2. Everyone gets sick
Ultimately we end up with herd immunity either way. The difference is that vaccines result in 10x less deaths.
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No talk of natural immunity? Enjoy your shots and boosters
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230646)
While everybody freaks out and wears a mask while they are driving alone, I have been working in this mess since day one. I started with washing my hands more, I did wipe down surfaces a bit, I did wear disposable gloves a few times in the beginning, and I only wore a mask when people complained about it. I never got sick. Either I have some kind of immunity, or Covid isn't as bad as we are lead to believe. I can tell you that emergency rooms are not being over-run with Covid patients.
Anybody ever consider we are being lied to?
But this is more than vaccinated vs. un-vaccinated/tested vs. untested: when is it enough? There is always going to be some excuse to keep us locked down. When are we going to be forced to get another booster shot? When does it end? When can we expect to be fully vaccinated (as in: the person is cured, end of story, no mask)?
Somebody explain to me why the loudest voices voices here who want others to get vaccinated are scared in going to CAF? Stop being hypocrites. I should be the one worried, not the guy who is already vaccinated.
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No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Conditions can also vary by area - e.g. https://www.newsobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article253733563.html or https://www.virginiamercury.com/2021/09/13/the-covid-19-surge-is-overwhelming-emergency-rooms-across-virginia/ or https://www.kmbc.com/article/emergency-rooms-in-kansas-are-overwhelmed-with-patients/37410613# Reality is reality. I doubt everyone likes all the conditions and restrictions. Instead of going through all of this why don't whoever decides to go to CAF just post in the thread with audio information and pictures. I already noted "No sense in debating that or taunting people for making whatever choice is best for them. Enjoy the show and take pictures for the rest of us."
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While everybody freaks out and wears a mask while they are driving alone, I have been working in this mess since day one. I started with washing my hands more, I did wipe down surfaces a bit, I did wear disposable gloves a few times in the beginning, and I only wore a mask when people complained about it. I never got sick. Either I have some kind of immunity, or Covid isn't as bad as we are lead to believe. I can tell you that emergency rooms are not being over-run with Covid patients.
Anybody ever consider we are being lied to?
But this is more than vaccinated vs. un-vaccinated/tested vs. untested: when is it enough? There is always going to be some excuse to keep us locked down. When are we going to be forced to get another booster shot? When does it end? When can we expect to be fully vaccinated (as in: the person is cured, end of story, no mask)?
Somebody explain to me why the loudest voices voices here who want others to get vaccinated are scared in going to CAF? Stop being hypocrites. I should be the one worried, not the guy who is already vaccinated.
I see you can’t answer my last post so you ignored it.
Personally my family got COVID before the vaccine was available, and my grandmother died from it. Why don’t you tell her that she is being lied to?
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My wife was an interpreter for the local hospital system.
We were both working at home and I heard what was going on there when all hell broke loose.
Nobody is being lied to.
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I see you can’t answer my last post so you ignored it.
Personally my family got COVID before the vaccine was available, and my grandmother died from it. Why don’t you tell her that she is being lied to?
I am leaving your grandmother out of it. I don't know her situation. It is easy for you to bring her up without all the details. Even if you did, that won't be all the details. Let her rest in piece. Let's not stand on her grave to prove a political point.
And I see you didn't answer any of my questions. Answer them.
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Ah, the wastebin awaits.
Cheers,
Scott
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My wife was an interpreter for the local hospital system.
Ask her if it makes sense to fire doctors and nurses if the hospitals are supposedly being over-run with Covid patients.
It seems they were heroes last year, and now they are garbage.
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There are certain situations (such as pandemics!) when people shouldn't be given choices, especially when sticking to one's opinions can be dangerous to themselves and others. No matter how much education you provide, some people simply don't have the knowledge and/or understanding to conduct themselves properly. That's why mandatory vaccination and testing are necessary. I had plenty of reservations but had to get vaccinated to fully appreciate the need to do so.
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I thought this forum was for audio. Drop the politics, covid stuff, etc.
Don P
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Why do people make it a point to say they got a sore arm with the covid vaccine, h3ll you get a sore arm with any shot. :thumb:
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I am leaving your grandmother out of it. I don't know her situation. It is easy for you to bring her up without all the details. Even if you did, that won't be all the details. Let her rest in piece. Let's not stand on her grave to prove a political point.
And I see you didn't answer any of my questions. Answer them.
It's impossible to talk about Covid if people don't put their politics to the side. My family got covid, my grandmother died from it. Those are the facts. Also, it seems like you are assuming that because I'm pro-vax that I'm a Dem, but in fact I am not. So how can my assertions be political in nature?
Here's what I know. A deadly, contagious disease does not care about which political views you have. It will infect and kill you regardless. That's just nature, nature is brutal and unforgiving.
Luckily, through some seriously impressive science, we have a shield against this killer. Taking it is not a political act. It's an act of self preservation and an act to protect your fellow man. So leave the politics out of it and try to think of it rationally, from outside the existing political narratives. If you do, I think you'll see that getting vax'd and reducing your chance of getting Covid by 10x is not political, it's absolutely and entirely practical.
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With all the deaths and misery that this pandemic has brought and will bring, it’s amazing there are still folks who deny the efficacy of vaccines, refuse to wear masks, claim their "rights" are being violated, etc.
If one disagrees with the policies of a venue or event there is a choice, either abide by them or don’t attend. Adult freedom is synonymous with concern and responsibility for the health and safety of self and others. Tyson; my condolences for the loss of your Grandmother.
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With all the deaths and misery that this pandemic has brought and will bring, it’s amazing there are still folks who deny the efficacy of vaccines, refuse to wear masks, claim their "rights" are being violated, etc.
If one disagrees with the policies of a venue or event there is a choice, either abide by them or don’t attend. Adult freedom is synonymous with concern and responsibility for the health and safety of self and others. Tyson; my condolences for the loss of your Grandmother.
Thanks man, I appreciate that. The hardest part of it was that she had to die alone, in an isolation ward and probably scared. We don't know because we couldn't go in to her room, we just had to watch her rapidly fade away, through a glass window.
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It's impossible to talk about Covid if people don't put their politics to the side. My family got covid, my grandmother died from it. Those are the facts. Also, it seems like you are assuming that because I'm pro-vax that I'm a Dem, but in fact I am not. So how can my assertions be political in nature?
Here's what I know. A deadly, contagious disease does not care about which political views you have. It will infect and kill you regardless. That's just nature, nature is brutal and unforgiving.
Luckily, through some seriously impressive science, we have a shield against this killer. Taking it is not a political act. It's an act of self preservation and an act to protect your fellow man. So leave the politics out of it and try to think of it rationally, from outside the existing political narratives. If you do, I think you'll see that getting vax'd and reducing your chance of getting Covid by 10x is not political, it's absolutely and entirely practical.
Well said Tyson.
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Tyson,
Sorry to hear that as well, bad situation for everybody. This is one nasty virus.
I'm hoping to go out like Nelson Rockefeller but will probably get squished like a squirrel by a semi.
My guess is another year before things return to what passes for normal but I suspect the shot will be an annual thing like the flu.
From asking around I'm told the dealers are dropping like flies.
Direct sales, word of mouth and online reviews looks to be the wave of the future.
I think the shows will make a rebound, though.
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It's impossible to talk about Covid if people don't put their politics to the side. My family got covid, my grandmother died from it. Those are the facts. Also, it seems like you are assuming that because I'm pro-vax that I'm a Dem, but in fact I am not. So how can my assertions be political in nature?
Here's what I know. A deadly, contagious disease does not care about which political views you have. It will infect and kill you regardless. That's just nature, nature is brutal and unforgiving.
Luckily, through some seriously impressive science, we have a shield against this killer. Taking it is not a political act. It's an act of self preservation and an act to protect your fellow man. So leave the politics out of it and try to think of it rationally, from outside the existing political narratives. If you do, I think you'll see that getting vax'd and reducing your chance of getting Covid by 10x is not political, it's absolutely and entirely practical.
And, you assume people like me are anti-vax, but I am not anti-vax. I am anti this shot they are pushing on us. For a good reason. But, it doesn't matter. You are focused on the tree, but not the whole forest.
But ultimately, this is all about government taking away our God-given rights. Rights to live our lives the way we want to. Should I be forced to do something against my will in order to fit in? That's what you people are saying. Get this vax, or be cast out. Discriminated against. People are being fired over this. It's not just some dumb event we are not allowed to attend. As I said: heroes one year, garbage the next.
But, answer this: if you are vaccinated, what are people afraid of enjoying life? It is one thing to not go because you don't care about CAF anymore, and not not go because you are scared of getting sick over something you are supposedly protected against. You just said it as a shield. At what point would tell those in charge that I got the shot, what more do you want from me? Screw your boosters. Screw your masks.
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From asking around I'm told the dealers are dropping like flies.
Direct sales, word of mouth and online reviews looks to be the wave of the future.
I think the shows will make a rebound, though.
Please explain what you heard about the dealers.
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And, you assume people like me are anti-vax, but I am not anti-vax. I am anti this shot they are pushing on us. For a good reason. But, it doesn't matter. You are focused on the tree, but not the whole forest.
But ultimately, this is all about government taking away our God-given rights. Rights to live our lives the way we want to. Should I be forced to do something against my will in order to fit in? That's what you people are saying. Get this vax, or be cast out. Discriminated against. People are being fired over this. It's not just some dumb event we are not allowed to attend. As I said: heroes one year, garbage the next.
But, answer this: if you are vaccinated, what are people afraid of enjoying life? It is one thing to not go because you don't care about CAF anymore, and not not go because you are scared of getting sick over something you are supposedly protected against. You just said it as a shield. At what point would tell those in charge that I got the shot, what more do you want from me? Screw your boosters. Screw your masks.
Man, not only did you not leave your politics out of it, now you've brought religion in, too. This is the wrong direction my friend.
So, re: your initial statement about not being anti-vaxx in general but only against this particular vax, let me ask a clarifying question so I can understand better what you mean. Are you saying the covid vax does not work? Or something else? You seem to have some problems with the vaccine itself, so let's explore that. What exactly is the issue with the covid vax, do you feel?
And re: your other questions, in fact I am not afraid of getting Covid anymore, because as I already stated, I have already had it. My whole family had it. And we all got vax'd too. So, pretty well protected. And it seems that the Moderna vax we got is also fairly protective against the Delta variant. Mostly I wear a mask because there's a small (but real) chance that I might inadvertently spread the disease to someone else. Which is ONLY a concern now because not everyone is vaxxed. If we'd already had 90% vax rates, then things could go back to normal. But we haven't, so things can't. That's on you, and people like you.
As far as your rights, I agree with you. You should be able to do whatever the hell you want. As long as your choices don't harm other people. But if your actions cause direct harm to others, then that's a problem. For example, you can drink all the alcohol you want. And you can drive your car all you want. Those things are fine. But if you drink a lot and then drive, that's putting others in harms way. And if you kill someone with your choices, then you are brought up on manslaughter charges.
Practically I feel like if you do not get the vaccine and you infect someone else and they die from it, then you should be brought up on manslaughter charges. Harsh, true. But it's the only way I can see that might actually stop this legion of typhoid Marys we've developed in this country.
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Poster removed
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It’s unfortunate there isn’t a vaccination to eradicate ignorance and false sense of entitlement. That would be a Nobel prize contender IMHO.
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Man, not only did you not leave your politics out of it, now you've brought religion in, too. This is the wrong direction my friend.
So, re: your initial statement about not being anti-vaxx in general but only against this particular vax, let me ask a clarifying question so I can understand better what you mean. Are you saying the covid vax does not work? Or something else? You seem to have some problems with the vaccine itself, so let's explore that. What exactly is the issue with the covid vax, do you feel?
And re: your other questions, in fact I am not afraid of getting Covid anymore, because as I already stated, I have already had it. My whole family had it. And we all got vax'd too. So, pretty well protected. And it seems that the Moderna vax we got is also fairly protective against the Delta variant. Mostly I wear a mask because there's a small (but real) chance that I might inadvertently spread the disease to someone else. Which is ONLY a concern now because not everyone is vaxxed. If we'd already had 90% vax rates, then things could go back to normal. But we haven't, so things can't. That's on you, and people like you.
As far as your rights, I agree with you. You should be able to do whatever the hell you want. As long as your choices don't harm other people. But if your actions cause direct harm to others, then that's a problem. For example, you can drink all the alcohol you want. And you can drive your car all you want. Those things are fine. But if you drink a lot and then drive, that's putting others in harms way. And if you kill someone with your choices, then you are brought up on manslaughter charges.
Practically I feel like if you do not get the vaccine and you infect someone else and they die from it, then you should be brought up on manslaughter charges. Harsh, true. But it's the only way I can see that might actually stop this legion of typhoid Marys we've developed in this country.
God-given doesn't mean religion. We all have God-given rights, irregardless of you our beliefs. You can be atheist but want to live your life as you please. Religion is another discussion. Not applicable here.
The intent has to be proven: was my intent to go to CAF and get someone sick? You also have to prove that it came from me and not from those other attendees, vendors, and staff.
Do this: look up online and find me the video about the lab who tested the vaccine, and the strange organism in it. Find me the picture of bag of red blood, and the bag of brown blood. Answer why certain people are not required to have this vaccine. Answer why certain people are using something different that the rest of us.
If you don't find it, that will tell you something. If do find it, that will tell you something. other than that, people are just insulting others for not being sheep.
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God-given doesn't mean religion. We all have God-given rights, irregardless of you our beliefs. You can be atheist but want to live your life as you please. Religion is another discussion. Not applicable here.
The intent has to be proven: was my intent to go to CAF and get someone sick? You also have to prove that it came from me and not from those other attendees, vendors, and staff.
Do this: look up online and find me the video about the lab who tested the vaccine, and the strange organism in it. Find me the picture of bag of red blood, and the bag of brown blood. Answer why certain people are not required to have this vaccine. Answer why certain people are using something different that the rest of us.
If you don't find it, that will tell you something. If do find it, that will tell you something. other than that, people are just insulting others for not being sheep.
Dude, I have no idea what you are blathering on about. That just looks like a bunch of crazy talk. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me the earth is flat and it's all a giant conspiracy.
Anyway, I'm not going to look anything up. I'm completely out of the news cycle and completely off social media, so if you want me to understand something, you must explain it here, in this thread, clearly. Then we can talk about it directly. So, try again, but more explicitly. What exactly are you saying?
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So those that got vaccines to protect themselves, family and others are sheep?
Go away. Stay in your own little world.
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God-given doesn't mean religion. We all have God-given rights, irregardless of you our beliefs.
If God gave you a right, then no man can take it away. You also don't understand your rights as a citizen -- it doesn't mean you can say or do what you want, especially if it harms others. Bottom line --- you're wrong about your rights. Your beliefs and opinions have no basis in law. Show me where in the Constitution (assuming you're American) it says you have the right to not get vaccinated or tested during a pandemic. I'll wait...
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If God gave you a right, then no man can take it away. You also don't understand your rights as a citizen -- it doesn't mean you can say or do what you want, especially if it harms others. Bottom line --- you're wrong about your rights. Your beliefs and opinions have no basis in law. Show me where in the Constitution (assuming you're American) it says you have the right to not get vaccinated or tested during a pandemic. I'll wait...
First Amendment isn't just about speaking: it is freedom of though. If you think a person is fat, so be it. It doesn't give you the right to physically hurt them. Most of us can morally understand that. A law just sets it in stone.
Show me where it specifically say you have to get vaccinated or tested if 51% of the people say so.
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Show me where it specifically say you have to get vaccinated or tested if 51% of the people say so.
Sure, no problem. You can start here for a general overview: https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/publications/topic/vaccinationlaws.html
or here: https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/vaccine-mandates#1
And here's an article that speaks about legal precedents requiring vaccination: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/12/1027132680/can-the-government-make-me-get-the-covid-vaccine
There are at least a million other articles if you take 5 seconds to google them.
See what I doing -- I'm providing facts. Unfortunately, COVID doesn't have ears to hear the wailing of the opinionated unvaccinated.
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Sure, no problem. You can start here for a general overview: https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/publications/topic/vaccinationlaws.html
or here: https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/vaccine-mandates#1
And here's an article that speaks about legal precedents requiring vaccination: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/12/1027132680/can-the-government-make-me-get-the-covid-vaccine
There are at least a million other articles if you take 5 seconds to google them.
See what I doing -- I'm providing facts. Unfortunately, COVID doesn't have ears to hear the wailing of the opinionated unvaccinated.
No. You said Constitution. I don't care about anything else. Our discussion is about the Constitution.
Show me where in the Constitution (assuming you're American) it says you have the right to not get vaccinated or tested during a pandemic.
Show me where it specifically say you have to get vaccinated or tested if 51% of the people say so.
I'll wait...
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I was hoping for an explanation from you about your last post and your specific problems with the Covid vaccine. But fine, ignore it.
And as others have pointed out (and I have too), you are free to do anything you want as long as it's not harming others. That's baked into our constitution at a very fundamental level. You'd know that if you'd read it (I have, more than once).
So as best I can tell you either:
a) Don't think that this is true (that your rights end when they result in harm to others)
or
b) You don't think staying un-vaxxed puts others in harm's way
So which is it? Or is it both?
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No. You said Constitution. I don't care about anything else. Our discussion is about the Constitution.
We can't have an intelligent conversation if you disregard state and national laws that are firmly rooted in the Constitution. It's like talking with someone who swears unicorns are real, but when you correct them with facts and science, they demand more proof when they have no evidence whatsoever to support their claim that unicorns exist.
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I was hoping for an explanation from you about your last post and your specific problems with the Covid vaccine. But fine, ignore it.
And as others have pointed out (and I have too), you are free to do anything you want as long as it's not harming others. That's baked into our constitution at a very fundamental level. You'd know that if you'd read it (I have, more than once).
So as best I can tell you either:
a) Don't think that this is true (that your rights end when they result in harm to others)
or
b) You don't think staying un-vaxxed puts others in harm's way
So which is it? Or is it both?
I understand my Constitution Rights. Obviously, the other guy doesn't if he is pointing out things on the internet, and not the Constitution itself. That's why i use the 51% analogy. We are a Republic, not a democracy. 51% can't tell the other 49% what to do. We have freedoms.
Getting the vax doesn't guarantee you from not getting it and not spreading it, and not getting the vax doesn't mean your natural immunity will not protect you from getting sick, so what's next? Most of the vaccinated don't want to go, the un-vaccinated just want to be included, and the rest here are people who just jumped to this thread to insult people and trash this thread.
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You didn't really answer my question. Try again, please.
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... I can tell you that emergency rooms are not being over-run with Covid patients...
Obviously you weren't near a Florida hospital in August or September
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No talk of natural immunity? Enjoy your shots and boosters...
There is no easily usable way to demonstrate natural immunity. Many people who have had COVID19 (especially mild cases) have poor and short-lived immunity (as demonstrated by some being re-infected and dying). In addition, there is no serum antibody level "cut-off" that assures immunity.
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We can't have an intelligent conversation if you disregard state and national laws that are firmly rooted in the Constitution. It's like talking with someone who swears unicorns are real, but when you correct them with facts and science, they demand more proof when they have no evidence whatsoever to support their claim that unicorns exist.
No. You can't have an intelligent conversation because you can't do so without insulting people.
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...Most of the vaccinated don't want to go, the un-vaccinated just want to be included, and the rest here are people who just jumped to this thread to insult people and trash this thread.
Apparently you don't understand what you read; the unvaccinated are free to go, they merely have to wear a mask (just like the vaccinated) and provide a negative COVID test.
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Obviously you weren't near a Florida hospital in August or September
Then, why would you fire doctors and nurses if it is that bad?
Again: heroes last year, garbage this year.
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I'm still (patiently) waiting for an answer to my question. It touches on constitutional rights, which I figured you'd be pretty comfortable answering. I'll re-post it here, in case you forgot:
So as best I can tell you either:
a) Don't think that this is true that your rights end when they result in harm to others
or
b) You don't think staying un-vaxxed puts others in harm's way
So which is it? Or is it both?
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Apparently you don't understand what you read; the unvaccinated are free to go, they merely have to wear a mask (just like the vaccinated) and provide a negative COVID test.
We are back to square one: I will wear the mask. If I am infected, I need to stay home. If not, I should be allowed to participate.
You guy realize that you can enter the hotel with just a mask? I can go next door to Safeway, a place with food, and I will only need a mask. So what makes certain parts of the hotel special?
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Then, why would you fire doctors and nurses if it is that bad?
Again: heroes last year, garbage this year.
Nope, simply good medicine. If you can't understand the reasoning that is your problem.
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... So what makes certain parts of the hotel special?
If you can't understand the reasoning that is your problem
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I'm still (patiently) waiting for an answer to my question. It touches on constitutional rights, which I figured you'd be pretty comfortable answering. I'll re-post it here, in case you forgot:
So as best I can tell you either:
a) Don't think that this is true that your rights end when they result in harm to others
or
b) You don't think staying un-vaxxed puts others in harm's way
So which is it? Or is it both?
Do you think getting the vax will protect you from spreading Covid? Natural immunity has no defense on ones health?
1. One person get's vaccinated - picks up Covid and brings it to CAF.
2. One person dosn't get vaccinated but has natural immunity - picks up Covid and brings it to CAF
Explain how the non-vaccinated is the bad guy?
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Do you think getting the vax will protect you from spreading Covid? Natural immunity has no defense on ones health?
1. One person get's vaccinated - picks up Covid and brings it to CAF.
2. One person dosn't get vaccinated but has natural immunity - picks up Covid and brings it to CAF
Explain how the non-vaccinated is the bad guy?
Before we get to the vax specific questions, can we at least establish (firmly) that you are free to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't result in harm to others? Do you agree with that?
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Nope, simply good medicine. If you can't understand the reasoning that is your problem.
It is "good medicine" to reduce the amount of qualified medical personnel? it is not like you can replace these professionals like that. They are not cheap labor. What about the emergency room over-runs?
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..
2. One person dosn't get vaccinated but has natural immunity
implicit in this question is how does one demonstrate natural immunity?
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It is "good medicine" to reduce the amount of qualified medical personnel? it is not like you can replace these professionals like that. They are not cheap labor. What about the emergency room over-runs?
The answer to this complicated, but boils down to not putting patients at increased risk. If you have education in virology, infectious disease and immunology you will understand the logical steps leading to this conclusion.
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Before we get to the vax specific questions, can we at least establish (firmly) that you are free to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't result in harm to others? Do you agree with that?
Of course. I said that to the other guy. If I am sick, I will not attend CAF. I have to rest. You guys seem to think that just because people don't want to be vaccinated, our intent is intentionally harm people. It is not.
Can you answer my latest question: does being vaccinated ensure that you don't spread Covid?
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Of course not, that is part of the reason for the mask requirement. However, despite what is claimed in many social media posts (and related disinformation), the risk of spread from an unvaccinated person is far greater than from a vaccinated one, beginning with the increased likelihood of infection for an unvaccinated person.
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implicit in this question is how does one demonstrate natural immunity?
Let's make it simple: one does not get sick or die.
And can we keep responses together?
The answer to this complicated, but boils down to not putting patients at increased risk. If you have education in virology, infectious disease and immunology you will understand the logical steps leading to this conclusion.
Those same medical personnel risk their lives for a year and a half. Aren't the patients the risk since they are the ones with Covid?
The medical personnel should be the ones worried.
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Of course. I said that to the other guy. If I am sick, I will not attend CAF. I have to rest. You guys seem to think that just because people don't want to be vaccinated, our intent is intentionally harm people. It is not.
Can you answer my latest question: does being vaccinated ensure that you don't spread Covid?
Hey, we agree on something, see that's great! So, we agree that you are free to do what you want as long as you don't put others in harm's way.
I will answer your question in a bit, I promise. But I feel like we haven't established enough basic common ground yet. We've made headway so far (and even come to an agreement!), so let's continue.
Now, how about that vaccine. Do you think it actually works? If people get the shot, does it actually reduce their chance to get sick by 10x? What's your thoughts?
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Let's make it simple: one does not get sick or die.
And can we keep responses together?
Those same medical personnel risk their lives for a year and a half. Aren't the patients the risk since they are the ones with Covid?
The medical personnel should be the ones worried.
Do you think you actually responded to either of these issues?
Not everyone in the hospital or ER has COVID, and those patients should not have to risk getting it from hospital workers. "Not getting sick or dying" has no correlation with immunity to COVID19.
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Hey, we agree on something, see that's great! So, we agree that you are free to do what you want as long as you don't put others in harm's way.
I will answer your question in a bit, I promise. But I feel like we haven't established enough basic common ground yet. We've made headway so far (and even come to an agreement!), so let's continue.
Now, how about that vaccine. Do you think it actually works? If people get the shot, does it actually reduce their chance to get sick by 10x? What's your thoughts?
No. I don't. There are other stuff that is better if you get sick. Should I be force to take it if I am not sick? I though the down time last year was supposed to help us?
Didn't we establish that those who are vaccinated are scared of being sick for some reason? If people are vaccinated, they should be safe, right?
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Again, you didn't answer my question. I didn't ask you if getting the vaccine makes you better if you get sick. I asked if you think that the vaccine protects you from getting sick in the first place. Well?
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Do you think you actually responded to either of these issues?
Not everyone in the hospital or ER has COVID, and those patients should not have to risk getting it from hospital workers. "Not getting sick or dying" has no correlation with immunity to COVID19.
In a Covid discussion, you said that hospitals are slammed full of patients, but said not everybody has Covid. Then a broken bone has no bearing on this discussion.
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Again, you didn't answer my question. I didn't ask you if getting the vaccine makes you better if you get sick. I asked if you think that the vaccine protects you from getting sick in the first place. Well?
Didn't we establish that those who are vaccinated are scared of being sick for some reason? If people are vaccinated, they should be safe, right?
No. It doesn't.
Answer my question.
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81 Replies
1315 Views
2 years worth of traffic in 1 thread. Opinions in this matter from all angles are firmly held. I decline to futility attempt illuminating the errors.
Audio show? Maybe next year. YMMV.
Good luck everyone.
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OK, so it's time to get back to CAF.
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Ah, so you do agree that the vaccine protects you. Sorry, I missed that, it was sort of implied in your answer and not stated explicitly.
And re: being scared of getting covid, I can't speak for others but I can speak for myself. I've said twice in this thread already (and now a third time) that I'm not afraid of getting Covid, as I already had Covid and I'm vax'd too. Did you not read that?
So now we've established that we agree that you should not put people in harms way, and we've established that getting the vaccine actually protects you and others. Splendid.
Now I'm going to move on to my final point. Herd immunity. Are you familiar with this term? Do you know what it is and how it's achieved?
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OK, so it's time to get back to CAF.
OK, fine. I felt like I was making good progress with mix4fix and actually getting to some common ground. But I'll stop since it's pretty far off topic now.
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I was skipping it anyway but I'm double-skipping it now.
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READ THIS
Jeepers, I take one day to attend my grandson's birthday party and everyone goes nuts. I just read over every word in this thread and despite strongly held opinions and some verbal jousting, there wasn't a single personal attack. No one called anyone an idiot, questioned their moral compass, and although someone mentioned god given rights, that's hardly discussing religion and politics has been avoided entirely. I went into this mornings reading with the thought that I'd be listing the reasons why the thread needs to be sent to the IGW, but I couldn't find a single expressed violation of site guidelines. Therefore despite the off topic nature of the discussion wandering far off the CAF event, I must first congratulate our members for maintaining decorum and respect for other members.
That being said, obviously some moderation is called for. mix4fix, you've made your position known, please don't post anything further in this thread. That's not Mid Atlantic or the site, just this thread. For everyone else, back to audio, no vaccine or covid mitigation discussion unless you're updating CAF's stated policy. At this point I'm not going to lock the thread or send it to the bin, we'll rely on you being adults, but I'll be keeping an eye on this thread and any violations will be dealt with using the strictest moderation measures recommend in the guidelines. Thank you for your cooperation.
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In a Covid discussion, you said that hospitals are slammed full of patients, but said not everybody has Covid. Then a broken bone has no bearing on this discussion.
This is not a COVID discussion, it is a discussion about the 2021 Capitol Audiofest. Your post above is internally contradictory and unresponsive as well as being very far afield from discussion about the CAF admission requirements.
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READ THIS
Jeepers, I take one day to attend my grandson's birthday party and everyone goes nuts. I just read over every word in this thread and despite strongly held opinions and some verbal jousting, there wasn't a single personal attack. No one called anyone an idiot, questioned their moral compass, and although someone mentioned god given rights, that's hardly discussing religion and politics has been avoided entirely. I went into this mornings reading with the thought that I'd be listing the reasons why the thread needs to be sent to the IGW, but I couldn't find a single expressed violation of site guidelines. Therefore despite the off topic nature of the discussion wandering far off the CAF event, I must first congratulate our members for maintaining decorum and respect for other members.
That being said, obviously some moderation is called for. mix4fix, you've made your position known, please don't post anything further in this thread. That's not Mid Atlantic or the site, just this thread. For everyone else, back to audio, no vaccine or covid mitigation discussion unless you're updating CAF's stated policy. At this point I'm not going to lock the thread or send it to the bin, we'll rely on you being adults, but I'll be keeping an eye on this thread and any violations will be dealt with using the strictest moderation measures recommend in the guidelines. Thank you for your cooperation.
Agreed. The civility shown in this thread was great. It gives me hope that maybe we can be more civil to each other in real life, too.
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This is not a COVID discussion, it is a discussion about the 2021 Capitol Audiofest. Your post above is internally contradictory and unresponsive as well as being very far afield from discussion about the CAF admission requirements.
Dear sir, did you not bother to read the moderation post directly above yours? Or did you simply decide to ignore it because your special little thought was so important to share?
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I thought it was on topic, sorry :o . Feel free to delete it.
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I thought it was on topic, sorry :o . Feel free to delete it.
No, you didn't do anything terrible, and you're not wrong about what you posted, but from experience if the moderator wishes to keep the thread alive without deleting posts, which is a real pain in this system, a firm hand is needed. You get the honor of being the first member to get his hand slapped as a warning to others, you should be proud of your sacrifice.
To be clear, if you have important information about the Covid-19 restrictions at the Rock Springs Hilton hosting this year's CAF, please feel free to post it. For general Covid-19 discussions there are other sites available for that, this is an audio site.
Looking forward to pics and reports from the show.
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Hey I am going to the show it should be fun especially after this thread
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Hey I am going to the show it should be fun especially after this thread
Almost anything would be (more fun, that is) :lol:
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I'm sure the show will be fine and I hope everyone has a good time and I'm sure that most will live with the need to wear their masks (it's that way with many events due to the present circumstances which are what they are). I'm sure this guy will not complain about wearing his mask and will be looking forward to all the new audio equipment. We all look forward to the sharing of photos and reports about what was exhibited.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=230710)
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That guy wears his mask like the staff at my local Home Depot.
Just as well I'm not attending as I'm easily led into temptation.
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My wife and I are going, and I can’t wait! I think I’ve only missed the very first one. I got reservations many months ago, as soon as I saw that Odyssey Audio was going to be there. Since then, I have only gotten more and more excited as the list of brands being there continues to grow.
The web site is being updated, as the list of vendors keeps being added to. The latest one I saw was Mytek, which I was thrilled about.
This is an excellent show in a very good venue. Small enough to enjoy and see most of the manufacturers, yet large enough to host many brands you might not otherwise get a chance to see.
Gary Gill and his staff do an amazing job every year. If he says it’s ok, I’m in.
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2 weeks to go...My wife & I be there ate least on Friday, not sure about Sat & Sun.
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... I got reservations many months ago, as soon as I saw that Odyssey Audio was going to be there. Since then, I have only gotten more and more excited....
Klaus just posted Odyssey was cancelling this year because of undisclosed non covid medical reasons. Sorry, he always has a great room.
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I had my (Pfizer) booster last Wednesday (got my shots early as I had triple bypass surgery less than a year ago and did not care to get another tour of a hospital). Other than a sore arm (still mildly sore), I didn't get any reaction. I didn't have much of reaction to the first two (sore arm mainly and slightly more sore than the flu vaccine I had a few weeks before the recent COVID one) and I might have had some fatigue but I really couldn't tell as after the surgery I had to forego sleeping in a bed for over 2 months (so I was tired anyway between that and the pain). Probably not going to go to any audio shows unless COVID gets more under control and more people are vaccinated. There's only about 57% of the US fully vaccinated at this point. Maryland is almost 65%, Virginia 61% and DC 62%. So the DC area is at least ahead of the national trend. Experts have indicated (depending on which one you follow) that anywhere from 70-90% of the population would need to be vaccinated for herd immunity. I'm not sure any of that will happen anytime in the next year.
Phil got my booster Sept 9.
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Klaus just posted Odyssey was cancelling this year because of undisclosed non covid medical reasons. Sorry, he always has a great room.
Thank you. I saw that, and while disappointing, family first always.
There’s enough other quality vendors for me to travel down. Klaus was the draw for me, but I’ve always enjoyed the other demos and vibe Cap Audio has. This year I’m kind of turntable shopping. I’ve also got family in DC so I usually see them while in town. Plus, my wife likes some of the stores they have that we don’t! :lol:
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Sounds like you'll be having a great time. Having family in the area is icing on the cake. Enjoy.
Klaus is such a big personality, been to dinner with him several times and he's a ball to hang around with, he'll be missed. But there's plenty to see every year. I wonder what both Tidal and VPI will come up with, each has a different, yet valid, take on how audio should be presented.