AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: sailor on 25 Oct 2018, 05:20 pm
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Hi guys, I have a Van den Hul Orchid BNC from my BDA-1 to BDP-1 and would like to 'upgrade' to an XLR AES/EBU cable that will give me a significant improvement. What do you suggest?
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Hi guys, I have a Van den Hul Orchid BNC from my BDA-1 to BDP-1 and would like to 'upgrade' to an XLR AES/EBU cable that will give me a significant improvement. What do you suggest?
http://bryston.com/products/other/digital_AES_EBU.html
james
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I have Mogami 3173 and Grimm TPR at various lengths and will use them as needed. Currently with a 2 feet TPR.
Make sure you get something with a correct impedance from a reliable company. I remember this thread about how boutique audiophile AES and S/PDIF cables measured really bad.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/preferred-aes-ebu-110-ohm-digital-cable-you-have-tried.13216/
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:duh: Bryston !!!! Just makes sense when a component manf. makes it's own cable. :thumb:
charles
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I have Mogami 3173 and Grimm TPR at various lengths and will use them as needed. Currently with a 2 feet TPR.
Make sure you get something with a correct impedance from a reliable company. I remember this thread about how boutique audiophile AES and S/PDIF cables measured really bad.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/preferred-aes-ebu-110-ohm-digital-cable-you-have-tried.13216/
Zoom25, would you provide your perspective/comparison of the Mogami vs. Grimm cables? Would be very interested in same.
Thank you, -dGB
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Zoom25, would you provide your perspective/comparison of the Mogami vs. Grimm cables? Would be very interested in same.
Thank you, -dGB
With the BDP-1 feeding my DAC (Dangerous Music Source), I've tried the following:
1) Mogami 2964 for S/PDIF (2 feet, 6 feet, 10 feet)
2) Mogami 3173 for AES (10 feet and 18 feet)
3) Grimm TPR (2 feet)
All of these cables were custom made by Pro Audio LA. I placed the order for each cable type at the same time, so it can be assumed the same cable in different lengths is from the same roll of wire.
I cannot directly compare the 3173 and TPR as their length doesn't intersect. However, there is some overlap happening, such as 2 feet of 2964 vs. 2 feet of TPR and 10 feet of 2964 vs. 10 feet of 3173.
I have done those comparisons at equal lengths as mentioned above, along with just testing how things change as you go up and down the length of the same wire. There does seem to be a pattern. Length aside, there also does seem to be a difference in the presentation between the different connections (AES and SPDIF). It's present and consistent at both 2 feet and 10 feet.
As an aside, I also find my DAC can sound subtly different in presentation when fed by my iMac w/USB. I've tried a Jitterbug and Belkin Gold, generic, and Audioquest Forest there as well.
I think the differences are subtle, which can easily be verified by hard A/B testing in short interval testing. However, one can become sensitized to it over time and so the differences can start seeming bigger than they actually are just because you are so involved. The differences start to matter more over longer listening sessions. I did spend an unreasonable time comparing them.
The changes are on a spectrum and what may suit one's rig/gear can vary depending on the particular music played at the time or whether your testing involved long listening sessions or hard and fast switching. I've often picked opposite things depending on if the testing involved fast changes vs. longer intervals.
Bottom line (applies with control for length and at varying lengths):
- S/PDIF connection sounds more upfront, appearance of being more locked-in with more detail, sharper on transient and drier sounding (especially noticeable during belts)
- AES sounds more laid back (plane), holographic, and more liquid. Where the SPDIF gives the impression of being more locked-in, the AES comes off as more diffuse (but in a good way). In quick testing, it can seem less detailed than other connection. AES is my preference over SPDIF or USB from my computer or even the BDP-1. There is this liquidness to the overall timing (big point!) and especially transients that makes it sound more natural and easier over the others, especially in long-term listening. When I just listen to one connection without switching, I find the AES is the most involving and least distracting. SPDIF and USB on lot of modern pop/hip-hop with respect to vocals, or tonality on classical pieces can sound a bit plasticky. The air around the vocals feel slightly manufactured and unnatural.
Every few months when I return to do some testing between inputs, my brain tells me I'm wrong for liking AES over the SPDIF of USB because they make the image more locked in and come off as more detailed, but as I continue to listen and listen without changing, the AES comes out on top. I wonder if it's all down to the timing aspect which makes the AES sound more liquid and easier on the brain.
Regarding length:
The longer the cable gets, the more diffuse the image gets and transients also get softer. Shorter digital cables are more locked-in and detailed. I am currently using a 2 feet TPR as I have the BDP-1 and my DAC on different racks to maximize air flow. Later on, I might try a 1 footer or 6 inch if I were to stack them.
For analog use, I'd definitely recommend the TPR or the Mogami 2549 over Mogami 3173 (Shield Current Induced Noise). I don't like what the 3173 does for analog.
For digital, it's hard to conclusively recommend the TPR or 3173 since I don't have them at same lengths.
In the end, one can try out different connections, different brands or wires, and different lengths and come to their own conclusion. At this point, I am internally well aware of how each connection and configuration sounds. In fact, that aspect hasn't changed much since I first started comparing. What does change is how I make sense of those changes that I hear and whether I like one over the other, or if I think one is more or less detailed, or which has lower/higher jitter/noise etc. It's the interpretation part that still hasn't been 100% convincingly settled for me.
Enjoy! :thumb:
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In addition, the Grimm TPR is used in many studios in Europe.
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@James Tanner
Hi James, what is the price of this cable you recommend in 0.6M and 1M length including shipping to Ireland, and have you actually heard the VDH Orchid cable I am presently using? If so, what improvement could I expect to hear.
I replaced a pair of analogue IC's the name of which I can't remember (they use quad core solid silver conductors with WBT RCA's) with a pair of VDH Orchid IC's and heard a huge improvement in everything which really made listening more enjoyable and fun. Its hard to describe the extra realism and the way instruments come alive. My wife said WOW, play me some Queen, now lets listen to Boz Scaggs, now this and now that and so on. I explained that maybe a similar step up could be realized by changing the digital cable and got another wow from her and encouragement to do it.
This is the type of upgrade I seek. The VDH Orchid BNC to BNC I am using for digital is just an analogue pair that has been split and I have no confidence that this is performing anywhere near the level of its analogue duties.
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Hi Sailor,
The Bryston XLR cable is $120 for a 1 meter length.
james
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Hi guys, I have a Van den Hul Orchid BNC from my BDA-1 to BDP-1 and would like to 'upgrade' to an XLR AES/EBU cable that will give me a significant improvement. What do you suggest?
I used a digiflex AES specific cable from BDP3 to a DAC. Sounded great and well made. Cost was around $45.
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Without knowing your budget-
Belden 8402 XLR's from either of these 2 places. I use a pair from BTPA and they are very clean and musical sounding-
https://www.takefiveaudio.com/products/1693-belden-8402-ag-deep-cryo-treated
https://btpa.com/IC8402XLR-XX.html?category_id=182
A friend of mine owns the pair from Take 5 audio and loves them.
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Nothing fancy needed. Not with Bryston gear.
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I've been very happy with the XLR cables I bought from Pro Audio LA using Mogami cable and Neutrik connectors. I use this cable between my Bryston BP-26 preamp and Mivera Audio amp. Link here.
https://www.proaudiola.com/XLR-straight-to-straight-s/369.htm
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For analog use, in my discussions with Pro Audio LA, they find TPR as the best value. They find the TPR better than 2549 and almost as good as the much more expensive Vovox unshielded, while being close to the price of 2549. So in terms of value, TPR wins, according to them.
What they told me about the Vovox is almost identical to what I've heard from others. The Vovox's high sound the best and most fluid with stuff like cymbals sounding the most detailed. There are all kinds of descriptive words that people have used to describe them that you can guys can look up, however, there is one interesting thing that a few people have mentioned from shootouts. According to them, the Vovox always sounded the loudest with the most headroom. I confirmed with Pro Audio La and they do find the Vovox as being louder than the TPR.
I do question whether this difference is simply because of the unshielded nature and the RF is somehow modulating the sound into being louder/brighter with more noise that is somehow preferable?
The Pro Audio guy was also using an almost identical rig to mine (Torus power with Amphion cables, monitors, amps). He said the Vovox didn't seem to be picking up any audible noise that he could detect with the Torus and other gear nearby. Of course, the RF can still be modulating the sound that isn't directly audible like a hum or static.
I think TPR is a good choice for standard shielded analog/digital use. It's priced reasonably well.
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I've been using Morrow Audio cables for a while. Best part is that it's pretty easy/affordable to give them a try, and then upgrade later to get more of the same (if you enjoy them).
http://morrowaudio.com/
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@Zoom25: How did the Audioquest cable compare to the others. I once borrowed an Audioquest analogue IC, not sure which one, and did not hate it nor love it but never played with their digital cables. I find your comment about AES being the 'most involving and least distracting' of great interest and is the type of info I am looking for.
@I Greyhound Fan: Budget hard to say. I am now retired and do not wish to keep on trying cables waiting for the right one to appear, and upon hearing a very good one may then be tempted to continue trying for even better. I don't have the money for this nor do I want to waste time on mediocrity. Life is too short for just so so sound and I have no time for 'background' music. To answer your question re budget is as I mentioned hard to say. I suppose about $600 and have no aversion to used, in fact I would prefer this. Cheaper too if it would do what the VDH Orchid analogue did for me. Would extend the budget a little if was a jaw dropping experience.
@Canadian Maestro: You claim fancy not needed with Bryston gear. I have recently moved to Ireland and only a month ago did I unpack and install my Wadia 15 DAC which I use for redbook files but use the BDA-1 for high-res which the Wadia can't handle. 90% listening is redbook and I find I prefer the Wadia for this. I had a Transparent Premium BNC digital from Oppo to BDA-1 which I replaced with a purple Madrigal (Mark Levinson supplied) and the improvement was impressive, similar to what the VDH cable did. The Madrigal also kills the Transparent on the Wadia. The point being that Bryston gear definitely responds to quality cables.
@Grit: A friend is trying to convince me to buy a Stealth Varidig Sextet but is way over my budget even used. Pity because I heard the huge improvement when he replaced a Morrow cable with it. This is not a fair comparison with the Stealth being about 6 times more expensive.
WAF! I fortunately have a wife who enjoys music as much as I do and is, after hearing the VDH, actively encouraging me in this endeavor. I am not a VDH agent, some of their cables are disappointing in fact and are sometimes called Van Den Dull, however the VDH Orchid is outstanding especially after I re-terminated them with some expensive Furutech solderless RCA's
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@Canadian Maestro: You claim fancy not needed with Bryston gear. I have recently moved to Ireland and only a month ago did I unpack and install my Wadia 15 DAC which I use for redbook files but use the BDA-1 for high-res which the Wadia can't handle. 90% listening is redbook and I find I prefer the Wadia for this. I had a Transparent Premium BNC digital from Oppo to BDA-1 which I replaced with a purple Madrigal (Mark Levinson supplied) and the improvement was impressive, similar to what the VDH cable did. The Madrigal also kills the Transparent on the Wadia. The point being that Bryston gear definitely responds to quality cables.
For digital AES cables, no differences were heard with my gear (all Bryston sources and amp). Most people switch AES cables hoping to improve on transparency and "neutrality". Even jitter. With Bryston sources, their gear are already at their best for the traits I just mentioned. Especially jitter and transparency. Unless there's something amiss in the cable design, a digital signal (and thus, SQ) will not vary by changing out the cabling. Talkin' about AES now.
cheers
p.s. I agree - "Bryston gear definitely responds to quality cables" -- analog interconnects imo.
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hi, Sailor!
try Aqvox. German company. they give you 4 weeks to try it at home. if you don't like it - send it back.
al.
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Hi alexone,
Googled Aqvox and see their cable sells for the reasonable price of Euro 159
Have you any experience with their cables?
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First off, with the BDA-1, BDA-2, BDP-1, and BDP-2, Bryston's own recommendation in the owner's manual and James' own recommendation was for AES over the other inputs. It wasn't until BDA-3 and BDP-3 combination when James felt the USB was right there or even better. I'm not sure where James stands now on USB vs. AES on that BDA-3/BDP-3 combo.
Yesterday, I spent a lot of time with my non-reference 2.0 TV rig with Emotiva DC-1 feeding active monitors. Usually, I either feed it digitally from the Samsung TV's optical output or the USB output from a Macbook Pro. I was going to put on Spotify as usual from the Macbook Pro and feed the Emotiva via USB. However, I had forgotten it and was feeling lazy to get it. So I hooked up the iPhone 6+'s analog output to the DC-1's analog input. So I was listening to the DAC in the iPhone6+
Tonally, the iPhone's DAC wasn't far off from DC-1's. It sounded same on the whole. Although, as I listened more and more, the differences started becoming more and more noticeable. There is this micro smearing in the vocals that makes the voices sound less smooth and whole. Of course, this was on a bigger level than what I hear with different digital inputs, which are much closer to each other. Nonetheless, the changes were on the same spectrum. As I improve between my various DACs, sources (BDP-1 vs. computer vs. CD player), and through preferred inputs, I notice that vocals start to sound smoother without these micro holes and smearing that ultimately causes fatigue as you spend more brain power to resolve those details. I think it's this calmness with AES that sometimes results me in not liking it when doing it blind and switching inputs rapidly. As I start increasing time intervals, and then go back and forth slower, AES always starts winning in my rig.
I think that's why I end up with AES in the long run. I am not sure what's the difference between how SPDIF or AES is handled in both the BDP-1 and my DAC's input, and whether the difference is in clocking or noise. The only thing that James has said on the DAC side is that they like the higher voltage of the AES over the lower voltage in SPDIF.
If you want to learn a bit about jitter and actually hear it, try this: http://www.cranesong.com/jitter_1.html
I just want to clarify that my experiments and suggestions were not about finding the best brand of cables. It had more to do with varying length of the same cable/connectors, and also comparing inputs at same lengths. I'm not saying you need to buy Brand X. I was only trying to make sense of the differences I was hearing. I didn't go looking for cables in search for better sound. I already owned all those cables before I started experimenting. The experiment started because I initially had the BDP-1 and my DAC stacked on top of each other and so just used a 2 feet SPDIF cable. Later on, I repurposed a rack for audio use and suddenly I had individual shelves. As a result, the gear was no longer stacked and I had to use a longer version of that cable (still the same wire and connector - just longer length). I wasn't expecting any differences from that change, and at first I thought I had some thing wrong with the analog cables or some power interference issue because the image all of a sudden got more relaxed. I even double checked whether someone messed with the speakers and how they were toed-in.
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Sailor,
no cables yet but i got a usb-low-noise power supply from them. i have an ifi dsd nano dac at home and when i listen to music via my laptop i use this combination. with good results.
if i would need a well made cable i certainly would give Aqvox a try. best of it: return it if you don't like it :thumb:
al.
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My buddy Rex just got a pair of the new Morrows, and he is very happy with them.
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May I suggest you also look at this
https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-starquad-analog-xlr-cable
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May I suggest you also look at this
https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-starquad-analog-xlr-cable
This link has an in-depth video at the end of the web page showing the immunity to RF interference the Canare StarQuad cable provides. Of course, if you do as the do in the video and put power cables across your XLR cables at a 90-degree angle than I suppose your biggest improvement (regardless of XLR cable) would be to reconfigure your rig so that you don't do that anymore. :duh:
I'd be interested to hear if anyone has compared Benchmark's XR versus the Grimm TPR. Different topologies and I believe it would make for an interesting comparison.
Regards, -dGB
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For analog use, in my discussions with Pro Audio LA, they find TPR as the best value. They find the TPR better than 2549 and almost as good as the much more expensive Vovox unshielded, while being close to the price of 2549. So in terms of value, TPR wins, according to them.
I think TPR is a good choice for standard shielded analog/digital use. It's priced reasonably well.
I had basically the same discussion with the Pro Audio LA folks which is how I ended up with the Grimm TPR as well. I think it is a pretty good XLR cable and you'd need to spend quite a bit more to better it. Another unsolicited plug for Pro Audio LA -- they were easy to deal with and sent my cables quickly.
Regards, -dGB
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I use Canare StarQuad cable with Neutrik NC3-B series XLR connectors to connect a PX05 Passive crossover to My Thiel SS2.2 subwoofer. Very satisfied.
(Cable provided by Blue Jeans Cable)
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@zoom25 Thanks for the interesting link about jitter, will make some time to check it out. When you used a longer length of same cable and connectors you said it sounded more relaxed. I've been thinking about that, not sure if that was good or bad. Did you mean a lack of soundstage and/or detail.
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@ anonamemouse I looked at their site and at that price I think I may just order one unheard. I actually need 2 cables and it would give me something to compare against.
@ OzarkTom I heard a Morrow cable as I mentioned and was neither disappointed nor impressed.
Perhaps higher up the range may do it. He's always having huge sales, we'll see.
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@ anonamemouse I looked at their site and at that price I think I may just order one unheard. I actually need 2 cables and it would give me something to compare against.
@ OzarkTom I heard a Morrow cable as I mentioned and was neither disappointed nor impressed.
Perhaps higher up the range may do it. He's always having huge sales, we'll see.
Rex bought a Five XLR. He said you can trade any cable in for partial payment Morrow is great for that.
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I'm surprised your buddy Rex hasn't tried Iconoclast yet. That's what real audiophiles use these days.
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@zoom25 Thanks for the interesting link about jitter, will make some time to check it out. When you used a longer length of same cable and connectors you said it sounded more relaxed. I've been thinking about that, not sure if that was good or bad. Did you mean a lack of soundstage and/or detail.
As you increase the length of the AES cable (same wire + connector), the sound does get more laid back and starts to loose a bit of focus. The soundstage also gets a bit larger and diffuse with the larger cable. This was not a problem with something like the HD 800 w/out modifications or EQ as their soundstage was already big and only got bigger, plus it helped remove some of that bite. The image getting a bit diffuse was only not that bad on the HD 800 as they already imaged so well.
However, when you have neutralish speakers and headphones, with the ability to utilize EQ to get the most balanced sound, the shorter cables are my preferred choice. I use the BDP-1 with Roon. Within Roon I use the preset for LCD-2C. If the rest of the chain is balanced and there is nothing you are trying to cover up, the shorter digital cables will give you the most locked in image and clearest details. The difference in texture and sharpness of transients and things like bass attack and decay is better on the shorter cable.
In a way, digital cable length can be used as a litmus test. If the shorter digital cable produces undesirable results, it may not be the cable that's creating something nasty, but simply better revealing a problem that was previously hidden. Of course, it is possible you could use a longer digital cable to cover it up, but the much better decision in the long run would be to fix the true source of the problem and stick with the shortest digital cable that will give you the least jitter.
When I had the HD 800 for 2+ years, I flip flopped between longer and shorter cables. However, with the more balanced and non-fatiguing Audeze headphones, I have always preferred the shorter 2 feet TPR over the longer 3173 (10 and 18 feet).
Since I have been talking about length so much, it's only a matter of time until somebody posts this or brings it up: https://positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm
Pro Audio LA makes these cables at roughly $20-$30. One could easily get made multiple AES and SPDIF cables from there and at various lengths, for the same price as a single cable from a boutique manufacturer. If you buy from an 'audiophile,' you are stuck. There is no room for personal investigation unless you are made up of money.
If you keep your BDP's stacked or very close to the DAC, go buy a 1-2 feet AES cable from a reputable manufacturer with Neutrik connectors. If you are stacking, you can even get something like a 6 inch made. I remember reading that James has a 4 inch for his BDA+BDP stack. It would be cool if Bryston also made shorter jumper versions for use specifically with their own Bryston gear when stacked for best digital transmission.
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I'm surprised your buddy Rex hasn't tried Iconoclast yet. That's what real audiophiles use these days.
Rex had an 18" version, and Morrow gave him 60% off for a trade-in. Too many brands of cables to keep up. I will tell him.
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Rex had an 18" version, and Morrow gave him 60% off for a trade-in. Too many brands of cables to keep up. I will tell him.
Tom - I'm still using - and loving - the Burson Cable+ Pro interconnects that last year both you and Rex felt were the best interconnects you had ever heard. Have you changed your mind about those? Not sure they're available in XLR ...
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@zoom25 I have read the article you linked to many years ago and read it again now, and glad I did. It has been bandied about that longer digital cables sound better, but after re-reading Nugent's take on the matter it would appear that the Bryston kit has sufficiently fast transition time from driver to receiver to benefit from shorter cables which if I understood you correctly you also found. So I will keep them short.
Has anyone tried cables from TEO. I contacted a friend whose opinion and ears I trust is doing back-flips and somersaults after installing a pair.
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Rex had an 18" version, and Morrow gave him 60% off for a trade-in. Too many brands of cables to keep up. I will tell him.
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/iconoclast/buy.htm
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Tom - I'm still using - and loving - the Burson Cable+ Pro interconnects that last year both you and Rex felt were the best interconnects you had ever heard. Have you changed your mind about those? Not sure they're available in XLR ...
Mot me. Rex said the Burson and the Morrow Five is very close. The Five is a new one by Morrow. Morrow is XLR, Burson is RCA. I have not switched to XLR, very happy with my Bursom Cable + Pro. The Burson is $200, Morrow Five is $550.
Rex needed it for his Dac Dac. He has a pre with XLR and RCA inputs and wants to compare DACs. He has so many. Rex is still happy with the Burson.
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www.gothamaudiousa.com
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=186122)
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This one.....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=186363)
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Match Canadian with Canadian. Take a good look at Audio Sensibility.
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Match Canadian with Canadian. Take a good look at Audio Sensibility.
Or Bis Audio.
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Match Canadian with Canadian. Take a good look at Audio Sensibility.
Yes, I have their BNC-RCA silver-coated cable, lying on a shelf. It's decent. Used it for a while, but my old Cardas Parsec BNC-RCA (green jacket) beats it. Now using a Cardas AES into DAC.
cheers
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Damn, Bryston's own cables are pretty expensive as well:
AES/EBU XLR: https://store.bryston.com/digital-aesebu.html
Analog XLR: https://store.bryston.com/single_xlr.html
I'm guessing these prices are in USD?
Why are these priced similar to Vovox? What's the selling point about these cables? Are they using something special here that I don't know about?
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Damn, Bryston's own cables are pretty expensive as well:
AES/EBU XLR: https://store.bryston.com/digital-aesebu.html
Analog XLR: https://store.bryston.com/single_xlr.html
I'm guessing these prices are in USD?
Why are these priced similar to Vovox? What's the selling point about these cables? Are they using something special here that I don't know about?
Hi Zoom
Nothing special other than well research quality electrical standards.
James
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I believe the cabling is Belden (or Canare).
These same brands (along with Neutrik XLR connectors) can be bought, pre-made and factory-term'ed, for a fraction of the price, at places like BJC in Washington state.
cheers
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Nobody have any experience with Teo Audio liquid technology? My friend who has tried many now owns a cable called the Game Changer and says its outstanding. It has replaced a cable that cost him a whole lot more.
Difficult for me to go hear it as we are now in different countries.
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Get the below which is preterminated from btpa.com
I have heard this cable in a setup with a custom Burning amp, EMT 950 TT and tekton speakers and surely sounded bloody good to my ears
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I've been playing around with pro cables lately.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=4174&fct=fct_brand_name%7cmogami&N=3992462205
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Hi guys, I have a Van den Hul Orchid BNC from my BDA-1 to BDP-1 and would like to 'upgrade' to an XLR AES/EBU cable that will give me a significant improvement. What do you suggest?
I see you're a newbie, but you don't have to look any farther for an outstanding XLR ic than right here on Audio Circle - Triode Labs.
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You would also do very good to get the best you can afford in Zenwave Audio cables. These are the best interconnects, along with Antipodes Audio, that I have used, by far. Problem with Antipodes, they are shut down on cables until who knows when, if ever.
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Hi Zoom
Nothing special other than well research quality electrical standards.
James
Hi James,
Do you have any info on the wire used for the AES?
Thanks.
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Hi James,
Do you have any info on the wire used for the AES?
Thanks.
It’s a Van Damme balanced microphone cable.
James
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It’s a Van Damme balanced microphone cable.
James
Hi James,
Is there a specific model among Van Damme's offerings?
For example, Mogami has multiple AES wires, such as 3080 or 3173: http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/dig_interface/aes_ebu/
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Hi James,
Is there a specific model among Van Damme's offerings?
For example, Mogami has multiple AES wires, such as 3080 or 3173: http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/dig_interface/aes_ebu/
Not sure I would have to check with engineering.
The digital AES cable is different from the analog AES cable.
Plus we use a special gold pin Neutrik connector as well.
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The accepted terminolgy is:
Analog balanced = XLR
Digital "balanced" = AES
cheers
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=186590)
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Agree with Canadian Maestro. One additional point.
THe digital SPDIF coax is also the same 'type' of signal as the Toslink.
It IS NICE that folks always call the Toslink 'Toslink".. keeps confusion down.
I NEVER heard of XLR called AES.
only the digital balanced called AES/EBU
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Not sure I would have to check with engineering.
The digital AES cable is different from the analog AES cable.
Plus we use a special gold pin Neutrik connector as well.
Thanks, James. Looking forward to finding out.
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Ok at this point in time here is what we are using
• Digital balanced cable is a Belden AES 110 ohm digital cable with gold plated pins in the XLR connector.
• BNC digital cable and connector same as above
• RCA analog cable is a Canare 75 ohm cable with special make and break ground RCA gold connectors
• Analog XLR Balanced cable is Van Damme shielded microphone cable with gold plated pins in the XLR connector
• Speaker cables are made for us in Chicago and is a 4 conductor weaved cable about 9 Gauge and has very low self-inductance.
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Ok at this point in time here is what we are using
• Digital balanced cable is a Belden AES 110 ohm digital cable with gold plated pins in the XLR connector.
• BNC digital cable and connector same as above
• RCA analog cable is a Canare 75 ohm cable with special make and break ground RCA gold connectors
• Analog XLR Balanced cable is Van Damme shielded microphone cable with gold plated pins in the XLR connector
• Speaker cables are made for us in Chicago and is a 4 conductor weaved cable about 9 Gauge and has very low self-inductance.
I love a good ‘ole honest answer. No voodoo nor nonsensical cable foolery. A lot of people would’ve said they developed the cable using a special copper alloy from god knows where and treated god knows how, then developed an even more complex outer jacket followed by some magical braiding configuration.
Thank, James for keepin’ it real. There’s not enough guys like you out there.
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:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
+1
That's Bryston for you!
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Ok at this point in time here is what we are using
• Digital balanced cable is a Belden AES 110 ohm digital cable with gold plated pins in the XLR connector.
• BNC digital cable and connector same as above
• RCA analog cable is a Canare 75 ohm cable with special make and break ground RCA gold connectors
• Analog XLR Balanced cable is Van Damme shielded microphone cable with gold plated pins in the XLR connector
• Speaker cables are made for us in Chicago and is a 4 conductor weaved cable about 9 Gauge and has very low self-inductance.
Hi James,
Thanks for getting some information. Can you specify which Belden model number in particular is being used for the AES? (e.g. 1800F).
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@ Canadian Maestro: which Cardas AES are you now using?
@ Randy: which Triode Labs cable do you recommend and if you are using one, what cable did it replace?
@paul79: interesting you suggesting Zenwave Audio and very timely, I have just been reading some very positive reviews. I must assume from your comment that you are using these and would like to know which one it is and what cables it bettered.
Great thanks to all who have given of their time to offer advice.
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sailor: the original green AES.
https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649470891-cardas-aesebu-cable/
http://www.cardas.com/aes_ebu.php
cheers
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Hi James,
Thanks for getting some information. Can you specify which Belden model number in particular is being used for the AES? (e.g. 1800F).
Hi
Yes it’s the 1800F
James
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Thanks for the confirmation, James.
I have been looking at construction details of AES cables from the big professional companies, such as Belden, Mogami, and Gotham.
Mogami's AES cables: http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/dig_interface/aes_ebu/
Mogami uses what they call 100% spiral shield (single Reussen?) around the two conductors and an attached drain wire which is inside the shield along with the conductors.
Belden's 1800F's construction is similar to that of Mogami's (3080, 3173 etc.) with the use of drain wire inside of the shield. However, rather than using a spiral shield, Belden uses a French braid shield.
Gotham GAC-2 AES: https://gothamcables.com/en/gothamcables/digital110ohmaes/10601gac2aes
Double Reussen shield. Two separate spiral shields going in opposite direction and crossing at 90 degrees with the 2 conductors inside of the shield. No drain wire.
Gotham GAC-2 AES Ultra Pro: https://gothamcables.com/en/gothamcables/digital110ohmaes/10666gac2aesultrapro
4 shields in total. Each conductor gets its own copper and aluminum shield. Then all of that is further wrapped in a double Reussen shield.
There is a paper on how the different shielding types performs at different frequencies: https://www.rane.com/note166.html
I'd be interested in hearing from others, as well as James and Bryston team, on how they decide what's the best design (with sound as top priority in mind) for analog XLR use or for digital AES use with the particular frequency range they operate in. If James/Bryston wants to expand on the above posted Rane paper and how Bryston designs their own gear, I'd love to hear more technical related information. Thanks! :thumb:
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you might find this of interest if you haven’t seen it yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt3kANA3Q&feature=share
If the link doesn’t work it’s Ethan Winer’s Null Test.
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“It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is ... If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.” ― Richard Feynman
or, in audiophool lingo:
If you don't hear an improvement, don't $pend.
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I'd be interested in hearing from others, as well as James and Bryston team, on how they decide what's the best design (with sound as top priority in mind) for analog XLR use or for digital AES use with the particular frequency range they operate in. :thumb:
Hi zoom,
I listen. If I hear maximum transparency with balanced tonality (nothing shifted one way or another), and my bank acct won't suffer too much, I go for it.
cheers
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187454)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187454)
LMAO, sadly there are some audiofools out there that would believe it !
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Which one for MQA?
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:D
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Dang. where's the cable for CLASSICAL MUSIK, man?!
:lol: