Entreq Grounding Boxes

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jhm731


Speedskater

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #1 on: 3 Jan 2015, 02:50 pm »
There is a whole lot of pseudoscience mixed in with a little good engineering practice in that type of product.

A big problem is the word "ground", the word has so many different meaning, it's hard to decode any post or statement.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #2 on: 3 Jan 2015, 06:22 pm »
I surprised to see signal cables grounded in these devices.

Folsom

Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #3 on: 3 Jan 2015, 07:35 pm »
Having a consistent ground potential is a good thing. However this isn't the way to do it correctly. You could end up with a lot of problems depending on the equipment. At times you'll be correcting engineering mistakes perhaps, and at others you'll be causing problems. I'm with Speedskater here. Circuit ground? Safety ground? Earth ground? Virtual ground? on and on...

It looks stupid enough that I don't want it.


dBe

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #4 on: 4 Jan 2015, 06:24 am »
Hmmmmmmm.  They probably started here:[url][http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19980201283.pdf/url] from MIL-B-5087.

Ground is a bit of nebulous term the way they apply it, but more people understand it than "bonding".  They are relying upon safe Class 2 operation and providing a common potential for the "grounds".

Me, I am leery of relying upon other's ideas of what is safe, at least without looking everything over with an educated eye.

Safety first.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #5 on: 4 Jan 2015, 03:41 pm »
The Nasa link failed to me: Page not found.

Speedskater

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #6 on: 4 Jan 2015, 08:13 pm »
I found a NASA paper:
"Electrical Bonding: A Survey of Requirements, Methods, and Specifications"
by doing a search on the above URL link.


Speedskater

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #7 on: 5 Jan 2015, 11:04 pm »
Having a consistent ground potential is a good thing. However this isn't the way to do it correctly. You could end up with a lot of problems depending on the equipment. At times you'll be correcting engineering mistakes perhaps, and at others you'll be causing problems. I'm with Speedskater here. Circuit ground? Safety ground? Earth ground? Virtual ground? on and on...
It looks stupid enough that I don't want it.
That word "ground" that causes the confusion.  Jim Brown writes:

Loaded Words That Cause Misunderstandings
One of the most overused and misunderstood words in electronics is "ground" (or "earth" in British English).
There are several important and common uses of the words. One meaning is an actual connection to mother earth. Some common
earth connections include the steel structure of a building, a buried conductive water pipe, a concrete
encased grounding electrode (called a Ufer), and, of course, one or more conductive rods driven into the earth.  The
primary function of this earth connection is lightning protection.

A second common use of the word "ground" (or "earth" in British English) is a third conductor that
is part of the power system wiring that should never carry current (except in the case of a fault) but
connects the conductive enclosures of equipment to a common point within the power system.
This "green wire" or third pin in the outlet in North American power systems, is called the "equipment
ground" (or "protective earth" in British English). The green wire is required to be connected
to all exposed conductive parts of electrical equipment "that might be energized" in the event of
equipment failure. The purpose of this connection is to provide a sufficiently robust current path
that a fuse will blow or circuit breaker will trip in the event of equipment or wiring failure that
causes the chassis to be "hot," thus protecting people from electrical shock and preventing fires.

A third common use of the word "ground" (or "earth" in British English) is to describe "circuit common"
or "circuit reference" within equipment. Circuit common should nearly always be connected
to the power supply reference, and to the shielding enclosure of the equipment. If the source of
noise is within equipment, circuit common is reference for the noise voltage (and current), and it is
the point to which that noise current wants to return.

Ground Wiring
Some hams (and audiophiles) like to think of the earth as if it were somehow a "sink" into which all
noise can be poured, never to bother us again. Indeed, you'll find lots of bad advice to solve RFI
problems with "a better ground." In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. An earth connection
is rarely part of a solution to RF or noise problems. Rather, we need a better understanding of
the four common meanings of “ground,” that “ground” is not a single point, and that connections
between them change current paths.

more at:
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

Speedskater

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #8 on: 5 Jan 2015, 11:30 pm »
The “Ground” Myth
Bruce Archambeault,
http://www.brucearch.com/index.html






FullRangeMan

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #9 on: 6 Jan 2015, 03:37 pm »
I wonder if a small or big capacitor would works as ground for 220V mains power??

Speedskater

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #10 on: 6 Jan 2015, 05:33 pm »
Just what do you mean by 'ground' ?
What might it accomplish?

As a Safety Ground/Protective Earth (EGC),  heck NO!

As a connection to Mother Earth, heck NO!

FullRangeMan

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #11 on: 7 Jan 2015, 05:08 pm »
Just what do you mean by 'ground' ?
What might it accomplish?

As a Safety Ground/Protective Earth (EGC),  heck NO!

As a connection to Mother Earth, heck NO!
Electrical grounding to equip protection.

Speedskater

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #12 on: 7 Jan 2015, 10:06 pm »
That would be the Safety Ground/Protective Earth (EGC) conductor. It connects back to the Neutral in the main circuit breaker box. It's purpose is to trip a circuit breaker under fault conditions. Note that in a US residential 120V circuit, these fault currents can range from 150A to over 1000 Amps!

Your capacitor's 50/60 Hz impedance would need to be a fraction of an Ohm, that is a very large capacitor!  It would also need to handle those 150 to 1000 Amp fault currents safely.  But you still need to run the ground conductor back to the breaker box.  A DC connections is a good thing too.

So overall the capacitor doesn't add an goodness to the AC power system.

******************
These Grounding Boxes are just connecting points/terminal strips, they are not destinations!
Nothing in the box will do a better job than a block of copper.
They cannot replace the Safety Ground/Protective Earth connection to the main circuit breaker box.
They cannot replace the connection to Mother Earth.  Which should be made at (or near) the main circuit breaker box.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #13 on: 7 Jan 2015, 11:41 pm »
A led or light bulb would works as destination?

Speedskater

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #14 on: 8 Jan 2015, 01:47 am »
No.
The Safety Ground/Protective Earth conductor's destination (really it's the start) is the Neutral wire in the main circuit breaker box.  The idea is that if the Hot conductor fails and comes in contact with a chassis (faults) the Safety Ground causes a short circuit that trips the breaker.
Remember that current (both good & bad current) always wants to get back to it's source.  It's source being that big power company transformer down the street.  Current from the power company has no interest in going into Mother Earth but it may use a Grounding Box as a pathway back to that big transformer.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #15 on: 8 Jan 2015, 01:51 am »
Thanks for the tips, I appreciated it.

doctorcilantro

Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #16 on: 4 Nov 2015, 08:26 am »
My question is for normal hum on a system, say at 1' you can hear some "clean" hum, would the Entreq grounding system for an amp (- to ground / - to ground) lower that hum?

Speedskater

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Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #17 on: 4 Nov 2015, 02:48 pm »
Before wasting a lot of money, read the troubleshooting section of this Bill Whitlock paper. It starts at page 100.

"An Overview of Audio System Grounding and Interfacing"
by
Bill Whitlock, President
Jensen Transformers, Inc.

An audio system is rarely a plug-and-play affair. Noises often plague the
system even if everything is done according to conventional wisdom. Did the
electrician screw up? Is the AC power dirty? Is the equipment to blame? Are
the cables poorly shielded? This presentation will discuss the "secret" forces
that drive ground loops, how they contaminate our signals, and new tools to
make troubleshooting faster and easier. Among the topics will be equipment
design errors that can make life miserable for installers and users, how
manufacturers manipulate "specs" to deceive, how new test standards and
instruments can make manufacturers honest, why expensive cables probably
won't help, and things your electrician can do to reduce or eliminate problems.


Then build a John Windt "Hummer Tester" about $15. See page 122.

jhm731

Re: Entreq Grounding Boxes
« Reply #18 on: 4 Nov 2015, 05:35 pm »
My question is for normal hum on a system, say at 1' you can hear some "clean" hum, would the Entreq grounding system for an amp (- to ground / - to ground) lower that hum?

No.