Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch

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John Casler

Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« on: 25 Apr 2004, 10:50 pm »
Recently in some of the discussions in this circle, I found that there some persons and companies who use room generated reflection to generate a "flat" response.

In one posting it was said that I must be running my speakers "very hot" in order to not be victim of "HF attenuation" and "sonic black holes".

Such is not the case.  While it is true that my speakers are "adjustable" in the mid and highs, and that many who hear them think I am running them a "little hot" (which I do since high end hearing tends to reduce with age :cry: )

BUT...the actual "settings" I use on the speakers, (which is 12:00 or less), is lower than the suggested settings by the designer himself.

Soooo....I'm actually running them "cool", but they have a very clear and extended high end.

How can this be?  Read on.

I have also noticed that some discussions are now occuring about certain room measurement software to be used in the "attempt" to generate a flat response from the speaker room combination.

It is my understanding that specific "test tones" are generated for a few seconds and or a slow sweep tones are run through the speakers and are then "measured" by a microphone.

The recorded decibel level of each frequency is then shown on a graph.

I would say that most all professional acousticians use some sort of device and software to help us "move toward" a "FLAT" room.

Gee that sounds very scientific and should work...or should it?

Recently George AKA Zybar (Hi George :wave: ) made the comment that it was amazing that his system "sounded" so good, yet "measured" so bad.

I'm not sure that is a bad thing..  :wink:

I have also "on occasion" heard some speaker designers say that measured frequency response, is really not a good indicator of whether or not their speaker will sound good or not.

I'm sure many think this is just a "copout" if their speaker doesn't measure "FLAT".  And of course if it doesn't measure flat it couldn't be accurate (this I say with tongue in cheek :wink: )

For years we have been told that "flat" frequency response is the ultimate goal and it is always measured in a way that "DOES NOT" really show us how a speaker plays dynamic music. (unless you listen to slowly changing organ tones)

What am I getting at?

In a room, when playing test tones, the sound leaves the speaker and moves out in most every direction, like the ripples of a stone thrown in a quiet pond.  Now the intesity of these ripples may be greater or lesser based on the speaker type or dispersion pattern, but all the air in the room is "energized" with sound by the speaker.

Just stand behind one of your speakers sometime and see just how much sound is generated well off axis.

By the time the initial wave reaches the listener (and or measuring microphone) it is being "chased" and bombarded by early and late reflection, the "sum total" of which are measured by the microphone to give us a "db" rating/reading of that frequency.

The ear brain will generally "filter" the following signals to a degree in forming the perception of sound and amplitude of the sound, if the interfering signals are not too great.  (This is called the "precedence" effect)

Front wall, ceiling and other reflections are generally lower in amplitude and later in arrival.

While these late arrivers will be recorded by the software and mic as part of that moments total amplitude, they may not be "heard" and perceived as same by the ear/brain.

Even using "tone bursts" the primary signal and its "real decay" is poluted with the reflection and the room decay.

In my exchange with some others in another post, I suggested seriously treating the front wall with acoustic treatment to reduce as much as possible contributing reflections from that surface.

One individual stated that in order to have a soundstage, that the front wall "MUST be reflective".    It was said that these reflections were "very valuable" and that I would have no soundstage, "black holes" and HF attenuations.

In fact, it is just the opposite.  Removing these "later and lower level" signals is more like "cleaning up" the signal (that we have worked so hard to preserve) and the crystal clear highs are even more sharp.

I have the best soundstage I have heard in 35 years of listening, my highs are great and who knows what a "black hole" is, but I certainly have deep blackness between instruments, when it exists, and a very thick "wall of sound" when it is on/in a recording.

Much like reducing reflected light in a front projection TV system improves the perception of detail and "black level" the reducing of these room artifacts does the same for sound.

Will they measure "flat" with continuos test tones or sweeps?  NO they won't, but I don't see that as important since "dynamic music" is NOT steady tones or sweeps.  It is a constantly changing group of multiple frequencies and attacks and decay.

To acheive measurement of this type of response, the attack and decay of a signal would have to be measured so that the reflected room response did not "skew" the actual measurement.

Lab instruments that I am aware of do not have the ability to discern the precedence of signal and disregard the lesser room signals as our brains do.

Anechoic measurement is the only true way.

Again, what does this mean to you at the sweet seat?  

It means that reducing the frontal and side reflections (which boost equipment perceived high frequencies) will, in fact, make the "primary" signals heard by the ear/brain more clear, discernable, and lifelike.

This means you will hear them better and cleaner.

It also means that simply harvesting primary and reflected frequencies and summing them to acheive a higher db reading will not nessessarily lead to a "perceived" increase at the ear/brain perception level.

Now again much of this will depend on your speaker type and system.  Line Source and or ribbon speakers will be different in this aspect than systems of high dispersion.

So when that cymbal is playing from somewhere in the left side of the soundstage.  That instantaneous tranmsission, is sent on its way to your "left" ear (I know stereo is a balance of left and right but for simplicity let's just say left)

The primary edge of that soundwave reaches your ear first and with greatest amplitude followed by the delicate decay of that sound.  If we allow the "first reflection" sounds from the floor, ceiling, side walls and front wall to "also" come at us, then the delicacy and inner detail of that "decay" or subdued trailing detail is "smearded, smudged, fogged, and any other fuzzed out term you can think of".

While some hear this "sonic haze", and think it "air" since it is highly dispersed and "fills" in what is supposed to be "blackness" or nothingness (or I guess I should say "soundless" space).

This is how singers and musicians and instruments take on "edges" and "shape".  By "filling in" this "space" with room sound we are not only losing the ability to hear "into" a recording, but we are "creating" additional sound that was not on the recording.

It usually smooths out a recordings imaging and reduces depth.

Now don't get me wrong, this can sometimes be "very" beautiful and enticing.  And with some studio engineered recordings it really is a moot point, since they cannot be reproduced as the real event anyhow.

But, in a live recording in an actual venue, with a good sound engineer, it is a beautiful thing.

So, in the end my point is that, using unusual means to produce a "machine measured" FLAT response in your room, may not be that, at all.

In fact, one of the first "excuses" you get from one so inclined as to want to be "FLAT",or who has acheived it, is that "It may not sound good to you, but it is flat".

I'm really wondering what is accurate for "truly accurate" reproduction.

In all areas of our world, there are many things that are thought of as "certain".  That is, you or "some expert" is certain about this.

Just look at where diets have been over the last 30 years.  Carbs, protien, fats, cholesterol, simple carbs, complex carbs, yada yada.

Let me assure you there exists a term called "mistaken certainties".  I find new ones in my map of the world everyday.

I simply put forth the supposition that "maybe flat isn't really flat and it ain't what it's cracked up to be in audio" :nono:

And in a parting shot "do" be aware that I am not saying "truly flat response" is not a goal, because it is.  What I'm saying is that I think maybe the current methods used to measure and produce "flat" may not be so at all.

Remember Columbus :lol:

OK, be gentle on me I'm old and frail :lol:  :lol:

Rocket

Measure flat frequency response
« Reply #1 on: 25 Apr 2004, 11:52 pm »
Hi John,

Just read your post and although i'm no engineer it makes sense to me.

Also i Totally agree with what you mentioned about damping the front wall behind your speakers.  I've been experimenting with this tweak for awhile.  

I placed a doonah on the wall and i was amazing at how the soundstage was wider and the depth increased by about a metre.  I found the music was less blurred and the music had real class (well that's how i describe the improvement).

I think the improvement was better than buying a component costing $1000's.  I mentioned this tweak in a thread when a member was asking for components he should improve, to date i don't think he's even tried it but is still willing to spend more dollars on components (oh well it's his money  :) ).

Anyway great post.

regards

rod

mgalusha

Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #2 on: 26 Apr 2004, 02:55 am »
Potentially big can 'o' worms here. :D

Personally I want the speakers to reproduce the signal as accurately as possible, by this I mean a flat response. Even with all the nasty things the room can do and the magic of treatment and various forms of equalization, IMO if the speakers aren't reasonably accurate it makes the job of getting them to sound good in your environment exponentially more difficult. Note this does not address things such as dynamics or imaging. Dynamics are mostly controlled by the loud speaker but the room certainly effects them. A good image and sound stage seems to be very dependant on both the speakers and the room. I have heard the same speakers produce vastly different images when set up in a different room.

Of course this is just my way of thinking. Perhaps I'm too much of a measurement freak but I don't know if I could knowingly buy a pair of speakers with a poor measured frequency response even if they sounded glorious. I think it would always lurk in the back of my mind that they were not accurate and that what I was hearing was  in some way less than optimal. Not that any reproduction is truly accurate but I couldn't knowingly buy a speaker which had, say a 6db hump in the midrange or a big dip in the upper frequencies. :D

John,

There is a way to measure in-room response which accounts for room interactions and provides a quasi-anechoic measurement without need for an anechoic chamber. It's call MLS (Maximum Length Sequence) and is used by many measuring systems including the ETF software (which I believe is what you were refering to). Of course it's not perfect but it can give you a very good idea of what is going on with your speakers and room. More info here and by doing a google search for MLS Maximum Length Sequence.

mike g.

John Casler

Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #3 on: 26 Apr 2004, 06:02 am »
Quote
There is a way to measure in-room response which accounts for room interactions and provides a quasi-anechoic measurement without need for an anechoic chamber. It's call MLS (Maximum Length Sequence) and is used by many measuring systems including the ETF software (which I believe is what you were refering to). Of course it's not perfect but it can give you a very good idea of what is going on with your speakers and room. More info here and by doing a google search for MLS Maximum Length Sequence.


Hi Mike,

This looks interesting, if if does as claimed.  I'll investigate it tomorrow.

Thanks :wink:

Ethan Winer

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Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #4 on: 26 Apr 2004, 05:46 pm »
Mike and John,

> Personally I want the speakers to reproduce the signal as accurately as possible, by this I mean a flat response. <

One big problem when measuring the frequency response of the speakers and room is there's no one correct place you can place a measuring microphone. Normal mid/high frequency standing waves create peaks and severe nulls just as happens at low frequencies. Moving the mike even half an inch can give a totally different response. The good news is your brain averages what both ears hear, so a null at one ear is countered by a normal level at the other.

As for ETF, I use it and love it. It's a great piece of software for a reasonable price.

--Ethan

John Casler

Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #5 on: 26 Apr 2004, 06:17 pm »
Quote from: Ethan Winer
Mike and John,

> Personally I want the speakers to reproduce the signal as accurately as possible, by this I mean a flat response. <

One big problem when measuring the frequency response of the speakers and room is there's no one correct place you can place a measuring microphone. Normal mid/high frequency standing waves create peaks and severe nulls just as happens at low frequencies. Moving the mike even half an inch can give a totally different response. The good news is your brain averages what both ears hear, so a null at one ear is countered by a normal level at the other.

As for ETF, I use it and love it. It's a great piece of software for a reasonable price.

 .


Hi Ethan,

Thanks for responding.  

While I have "thrown out a challenge" to the status quo, I too feel that flatly and realistically producing the recorded program at the sweet seat, is the absolute goal for most audiophiles.

But the facts, even as you state them remain.  Current measuring systems, (even what I have read of the MLS) have a very rough time telling us what will "sound" real.

In looking at the basic abilities of MLS, it too is limited in scope.

So anechoically, quasi-anechoically, or in a totally non-treated room a speaker will measure dramatically different.  The key issue is what the ear/brain perceives and how accurate "that sound" is.  How can one measure that? :roll:

As 8th Nerve stated to me in a recent post, (paraphrasing) "Like it or not, you will be listening to your room".

This is absolutely true and my general goals are to reduce the "objectionable", room signal degrading additions as much as possible.

There are many ways to significantly reduce most (objectionable) room interaction while enjoying the positive room re-inforcements.

But I realize I am preaching to the choir with much of this.

I think it might also be relevant that the highs and the bass frequencies need to be treated very differently, and then all the frequencies in between, are on a "slope" of treatment options.

Bass frequencies actually are treated quite differently, and in many cases the room is a partner in delivering bass, where for the highs, it is an antagonist to the original.

zybar

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Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #6 on: 26 Apr 2004, 06:20 pm »
Mike,

Just curious, but how does your system measure (especially 200 and below)?

After "seeing" my measurements and "hearing" how it sounds, I am a little confused...

I guess the big test for me will be once I get things set up so it measures pretty well, how will it sound?

George

Rob Babcock

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Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #7 on: 26 Apr 2004, 06:26 pm »
If you don't want a flat room responese, then exactly where would you like your peaks and dips? And how pronouced would you like them to be?  :wink:

John Casler

Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #8 on: 26 Apr 2004, 06:41 pm »
Quote from: Rob Babcock
If you don't want a flat room responese, then exactly where would you like your peaks and dips? And how pronouced would you like them to be?  :wink:


Hey Rob,

I think everyone wants a flat (meaning true frequency amplitude through-out the frequency spectrum) response.

My "challenge" is that, as with many other things, theory and practice don't always match.  And in addition, I'm not convinced that "any" mechanical method exists to allow us to measure and adjust (thus over-riding our ears) to a "true" flat.

And I just thought of something else.  I'm not sure that flat frequency response in not also "decibel dependent".

That is, what might measure flat at 65db, may not measure flat at 95db.

And to add "fuel" to that, our hearing is certainly decibel dependant (look up Fletcher-Munson)
 :o

nathanm

Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #9 on: 26 Apr 2004, 06:58 pm »
This question is kinda directed at Ethan, but it goes for anyone with recording studio experience.  Do you correlate "measurably flat" with a subjective "damn that sounds good" feeling?  I mean, if you are in a room which has been treated and tweaked to give the flattest response as can be achieved does this result in something that is satisfying for listening or does it seem subjectively unfavorable?  I realize that a theoretical 1:1 transfer of the signal seems like it makes all kinds of sense, but I just wonder if what measures "flat" actually sounds "flat".  Yes, I know it's kind of an obtuse question, but there it is...

Kevin P

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Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #10 on: 26 Apr 2004, 07:28 pm »
Flat frequency response is a much misunderstood and abused term.  

Flat measured how and where?   And what contribution is off-axis energy vs. on-axis.   It is just one parameter and consumers probably give those graphs more weight than they should be given.   Especially since the ones that make it to the marketing material are smoothed and doctored to look good to begin with.

In terms of design though.... there is no other end goal besides flat frequency response.   You blame the recording engineer if it ends up sounding bad. ;-)    Really though.... what other goal would you aim for?   I've seen people purposely create non-flat frequency response to make a speaker more exciting or "voice" it in a certain way.   Why not just use a tone control?   That way at least you could go back to flat if the non-flat response was really bad on a particular recording.

I think in blind testing most people would prefer a non-flat frequency response as measured at the listening position.   For the most part that is all that people are used to hearing anyway.   Even the speaker with the flatest frequency response on the planet is going to be +- several db when placed in a room.   Also there are the Fletcher-Munson concerns and people have radically different hearing so much of this becomes a mute point.    Go listen to as many different speakers as are within your budget and buy the ones you like the best.

zybar

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Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #11 on: 26 Apr 2004, 07:34 pm »
Kevin,

For me it isn't so much buying the best speaker I can afford (I think I did that with RM 40's)...it is making sure I get the best sound out of my system.  Measurements are just one tool to help me achieve that end goal.

If at the end of all this I have great measurments but don't like the way it sounds, I would go back to whatever setup gave me the most enjoyment.

As I have already stated, I think my system sounds pretty darn good!!  I am just of the mindset that it can be made even better.   :D

George

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Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #12 on: 26 Apr 2004, 09:13 pm »
What a great thread!  I hope I don't ruin it ;)


  I think some people give "a flat speaker response"  to much credence.  While a flat frequency response itself isn't necessarily a bad thing...simply aiming toward a flat frequency response alone doesn't mean much either.

   Many of you guys would know better than I, what else makes a speaker sound good.  But simply having a flat response alone is definitely not it.  I would guess having a low distortion, ability to play dynamics come into play too, along with the frequency response.  What else?  Heck, I'm not really sure...but I know I've heard some speakers that touted their glorious (flat) frequency response...but they sounded rather average (in a bad way).  I suppose it could have been the room...but they performed the same in other rooms as well.  I suppose this is why you mentioned a flat in room response...rather than simply a flat speaker response.

   But, as you've mentioned...there are soooo many variables that can interact with the speakers frequency response...how is an audio hobbyist supposed to keep this all straight?  The room certainly interacts with an audio system.  But, would it act differently at varying levels? (like someone mentioned)  Sure sounds interesting.  Maybe we should just listen to constant level test tones...at least we would know our system is set up optimally.  

   I really do agree with you guys...saying that a flat frequency response should be a goal.  But I can't help but think this is an impossible task.  There are just too many factors outside of our control.  I would even argue that instead of using room treatments, component selection and (gasp) tone/correction controls as tools to smooth out the in room frequency response...that these things MAY be working against our goal of obtaining a system with a flat response.

    While trying to flatten out the measured response of a system, we may have just moved further away from a flat hearing response that we actually listen to.  Our hearing is not linear...As we get older we encounter hearing loss.  This hearing loss will effect certain (higher) frequencies more than others...but, even so...our hearing level is not flat.  Also, have you ever noticed how our ears are shaped...some are large, some small...some have large folds...others seem to taper back toward the rear of the ear.  Some ears point forward, while others appear to be perfectly horizontal to the head.  

    I know this sounds silly, but it actually does make a big difference in how we hear.  Should we be using room treatments, component selection and tone controls to compensate for our non-linearities, caused by not only hearing loss...but also due to the simple shape of our ears.

    as a side note...to me...it really isn't a surprise when two people have differing opinions about the same speaker in the very same audition.  In fact, if a person doesn't like a speaker I think performs well...I just say "but yeah, look at the way his ears are shaped...no wonder he hears like that!"


    I know this may sound goofy...and even tho I think measured responses should remain a tool that we use...I just don't know how well it represents what we're actually hearing. :?

mgalusha

Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #13 on: 26 Apr 2004, 10:18 pm »
Quote from: zybar
Mike,

Just curious, but how does your system measure (especially 200 and below)?

After "seeing" my measurements and "hearing" how it sounds, I am a little confused...

I guess the big test for me will be once I get things set up so it measures pretty well, how will it sound?


George,

It's been a while since I've measured the system and some things have changed. I'll have to pull out the laptop and run some measurements.

From what I remember  there were some fairly nasty peaks and dips in the LF response but as you have mentioned it can sound subjectively very nice. At the time I was able to get the low frequencies fairly smooth by playing with some of the furniture and oddly enough one of the closet doors and a cabinet door. I suppose they were acting like adjustable resonators. With a sliding closet door open 6" I could get a nearly flat bass response in the right channel but at the expense of a nasty dip in the midrange.

I'll try and run some measurements this evening. Hopefully I can get the mic in the right place since as Ethan points out it can make a huge difference.

Smeggy

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Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #14 on: 27 Apr 2004, 12:46 am »
Personally the whole 'flat' and 'accurate' thing is over for me. I used to care and scrutinized measurements etc. but now I've gotten to that point of what I like to call *enlightenment*  :P  in that I no-longer care how things measure, I just want them to sound really good. Accuracy and measurements are illusions to a great extent in that unless we were in the recording stdio listening to hear what the performance really sounds like we have no point of reference to judge from. Only a few people get to see real concerts. Of those only a few, such as orchestral, jazz and chamber music will be of any practical use as most music live isn't anywhere near what we get on our CD's. We don't know what the stuff was recorded with (Mic's, Decks, mixing panels and EQ) and how tone deaf the engineer are or how much the stdios screw with the results to suit their agendas.

In fact, the only reliable measure I've found are unmic'd voice, acoustic, brass, string and percussion.  Almost everything else is electronically processed using pro equipment. I hear many people talk about dynamics without really having much idea about what real percussive dynamics sound like. I'd imagine many here have a better clue than most but still.. Yes we can try to reproduce what was recorded as near as possible, but given that our gear will bear little to zero resemblence to what it was recorded on or mixed with, it seems a lost cause trying. Also, most recordings are heavily compromised with limiting, compression, making things boom box friendly and so-on. My own model is to find what sounds great to us individually, regardless of price, spec's, names, reputation and measurements. In the end they really mean very little and shouldn't cause us to be slaves to lesser enjoyment just because our brains tell us it must be inferior for whatever reason.  :)

This may go contrary to the percieved way of things but firmly believe that way too many people are hoodwinked into buying less than sonically sound gear because they are told it's 'better'. IMO anyways  :wink:

SWG255

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Flat response isn't usually euphonic
« Reply #15 on: 27 Apr 2004, 01:57 am »
This is a great thread. I want to state my premise right up front, flat response isn't usually euphonic. It is a desireable goal, but it should be used as a guide not as the be all and end all of system tuning.

A friend of mine has a Beringer digital equalizer which he uses downstream from his LinkDAC, and he can get the frequency response from his speakers very flat (as measured by some fancy software on his laptop, and with a calibrated measurement mic), but neither of us like the sound when reproducing music that way. What he does instead is to look at the compensation curve generated by the equalizer, and "water" it down, that is reduce the amount of compensation, either plus or minus, the equalizer does to obtain that flat response. This leads to a response curve somewhat reminescent of "rolling hills", and to both of us his system sounds better (more musical) that way.

To add to this, the reviews of the TACT equalizing preamps i've read indicate that an absolutely flat response as generated by the TACT in a high-end audiophile system tends to make the sound sterile. Again, the reviewers seem to prefer aiming for a particular set of response curves, rather than flat.

I also remember the review of the Altec-Lansing Acousta-Voicette, the first commercially available 1/3 octave graphic equalizer in High Fidelity Magazine back in the late 60's. I remember that the reviewer presented the frequency response curve he measured after he used the Altec equalizer to "tune" his speakers for "most natural sounding" response. The curve was very flat from the low bass to around 3KHz., and then gently rolled off the high frequencies. This technique is known as the "house effect", and is often used in venues where acoustic music is reproduced through amplifiers and speakers.

As for recording studios, it is common practice for the control room monitors to be equalized for a flat, or even rising high-frequency response. This is done to compensate for the loss of critical discernment which occurs when engineers and producers listen to tracks for hours on end. I believe this is why, coupled with unrealistically high volume settings, so many recordings end up sounding so bad. The exaggerated high-frequency playback in these situations tends to support the artistic contention that it should sound that way.

Finally let's consider the other end of the reproducing chain. If vinyl lovers are also enamoured with flat frequency response, they would all trade in their turntables for digital playback systems. There is no doubt that digital playback is the flattest medium we've ever had for extracting audio from a source. Analog magnetic tape at higher tape speeds would be second flattest, and phono cartridges are a distant third. Even high-end cassette decks like the old Nakamichi's measured flatter than most high-quality phono cartridges.

So, I think flat frequency response is a general goal, but it often doesn't sound good to get too close to it in a listening room.

Rob Babcock

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Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #16 on: 27 Apr 2004, 02:57 am »
Many good points have been raised here.  Of course many (most, maybe all?) of us don't really want "the truth" out of our gear.  Look at our affinity for tubes & vinyl- both notably impart their own sound to whatever they're reproducing, yet that sound is called "musical" or "warm", etc etc.  And while I'm not equating them with tubes & LPs, just look at B(l)ose- they're got tone controls hardwired into all their speakers and they sell like hotcakes!  :o

As has been mentioned, the problems with deviation from flat is that it's hard to predict just what taste the listener has.

But this thread's meanering off topic a bit- we're really not talking about the response of any one peice of gear but room treatment.  In a room engineered to be as neutral as possible you can still use whatever euphonically colored peice of gear that floats your boat.  To my mind, no room sound would be best.  But since that's impossible in practical terms I'd aim for a very predictable sound that does the least harm possible.

I was joking, John C, but at the time the question is valid.  If you don't want flat, just where would you like the colorations distributed?  Perhaps an honest answer to that question would cut to the very essence of what the hobby means to us.  That would probably explain exactly what we all hear and prefer.  Unfortunately no method has ever been devised yet to totally describe/measure everything we hear.  How would you explain the color of a rose to someone who's been blind from birth?  The language just isn't there.

Russtafarian

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Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #17 on: 27 Apr 2004, 05:45 am »
I'm surprised no one has brought this up but flat frequency response should be one of the primary design goals of a speaker system AS MEASURED IN AN ANECHOIC CHAMBER, not the listening room.  As has been mentioned, the effect of most listening rooms, whether a living room with speakers or a concert hall with musicians, is to attenuate the mids and highs to acheive a sound that we equate with being natural, lifelike, or whatever.  Rooms that don't do this sound bad.  Room treatment helps fix that.  A flat response at my listening position would rip my ears off.  Most unpleasant!  

I've concluded that the most realistic goal for the audiophile is to accurately reproduce what the MASTERING engineer heard.  This is the make or break step in the production process in terms of our ultimate enjoyment of the quality of the sound, more so that what compressor or mic was used on the vocalist, or how it was recorded (analog, 16 bit, DSD, etc.).  If you measured Steve Hoffman's mastering studio, I doubt it would measure flat at the key listening position.  Or if it does, Steve knows how to tonally tweak the music to make it sound right (not flat) to the consumer (us).

JLM

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Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #18 on: 27 Apr 2004, 10:33 am »
Flat response is good, but at what cost?  I've been inside anechoic chambers and certainly wouldn't want that for my listening room (based on the sound).  

Dampening the first reflections (to avoid 0.1 millisecond of less delays) is a well known and desirable goal in order to help the brain sort out direct signals from the rest.  This includes front wall and side walls in front of the listener.  Like anything else it can be overdone (but not easily in this case).

Different music warrants different listening environments.  A small jazz group might sound good in as little as 10,000 cu. ft., but a symphony needs perhaps 1,000,000 cu. ft.  How then can the ideal listening cope with properly reproducing that?  Maybe someone needs to invent reversible wall panels that could simulate these extremes.

Most speakers have two cabinets, the one you bought and the one you live inside of.  How can speakers be properly designed without knowing this "greater cabinet" we call a room?  Seems to me that many of sonic characteristics of the room should have more importance than those inside the cabinet.  (Higher frequencies outside and lower inside?)  I've had a speaker designer tell me recently that the speaker is flatter than the room it going in (so what's the point in worrying about going too much farther?).

Perhaps this is one of the advantages of open driver or infinite baffle designs.

Housteau

Do we really want a "flat" response? A paradigm ch
« Reply #19 on: 27 Apr 2004, 12:30 pm »
Yes.  This is a very good thread that allows us to pause a bit and reflect upon what it is we like about our systems and the rooms they are in.  I don't think that flat response alone is the answer to having a pleasing acoustical and musical environment.  While it is true that it may prove to be the most accurate and true to the original recording, the room and it's attributes also create the magic of illusion around each performance.  A purely flat response within a room minus this magic may be good for mastering a recording, but I feel would be less than ideal for pure listening pleasure.

In a way I think that we are all not unlike artists working with electronics within a closed space trying to recreate an illusion of some musical event.  For this magic to happen it takes science, but also a leap of faith that pure numbers are not the only way to the truth and the light.  It is a hard subject to quantify, as with most art it is subjective, and test instruments cannot record subjectivity.  

I think the answer lies within a balance of wanting a flat response, especially with the lower frequencies, and adding to that directional cues from the room itself to create the desired sense of space and air around the music.