Your dream wheels...

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SHV

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #140 on: 1 Sep 2011, 03:15 am »
"495 horsepower to the rear wheels on the dyno and still gets 29 miles to the gallon on the highway."
**********
That is interesting...the 29 mpg hwy explains how it gets good range with a fairly "small" gas tank.

Steve

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #141 on: 1 Sep 2011, 12:21 pm »
In contrast my Dad's Vette (I guess we are a Vette family) laid down 495 horsepower to the rear wheels on the dyno and still gets 29 miles to the gallon on the highway.
The magic of carburetors. Very small primary jets, and massive secondarys. The best of both worlds.

doug s.

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #142 on: 1 Sep 2011, 12:54 pm »
The magic of carburetors. Very small primary jets, and massive secondarys. The best of both worlds.
'cept, i bet his dad's 'wette is a modern fi iteration.  no way the older carbie 'wettes get that kinda mileage...  the new fi 'wettes get such good mileage because they're turning something like 2000rpms at highway speeds a bit over 80mph...   :wink:

doug s.

ctviggen

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #143 on: 1 Sep 2011, 01:12 pm »
    Construction waste and cost are currently at a higer level only because these factors are spread out over conciderably smaller production runs. As more people purchase these DREAM Vehicles those impediments will rival those of ICE cars and over the life of the BEV with its greatly reduced operating and maintanace cost, these cleaner asperations will no doubt trump those of their predessesors.
      As for disposal Litheum is far to expensive to throw out. Recycling a Li battery will return a signifigant value as a core. In fact testing has shown that as the battery ages at around 120 to 150 thousand miles the capacity will be reduced to around 70% . While not pheasable as a propulsion battery several start ups are angeling for the battery second life industry. Several uses are possible i.e a bank of two depleated  Leaf batteries is sufficiant for a temporary home power source.  Even with a 30% reduction in power these power packs are capable running  an avarage american home (in the event of a black out or storm interuption) for 24 hours or a European home for 48 hours. GM sugests that its Volt battery banks "second life repourposing" will provide 20 years of additional service in different applications.
     Additionaly several of the auto manufactures( including Hondas home Power Package and a similar program by Nissan) have invested in these technologies and have plans for home-auto charging stations in which the energy collected durring the day by a solar array is stored in two used automotive Li banks so that they can recharge the single battery in the vehicle at night.

    If the Tesla Roadster dosent quite make your list check out the convertable Fisker Karma Sweeeet.

I still think a bike or walking is the only way to be green but thats no fun and not very dreamy

The real cost of these cars right now is very high.  For instance, a friend's Prius's battery went out.  It's going to cost them over 6,000 for a refurbished battery.  In terms of real cost, there goes much if not all of your gasoline savings.  Batteries are the main reason I bought a diesel.  Another problem I have with true battery powered only vehicles is their lack of mileage.  Even if you can get to and from work, what happens if you want to go anywhere else?  Can you do it?  Not right now.

As for charging these cars, maybe there would be some way to charge them using solar cells, but unless the solar cells are built directly into the car, this is going to require a significant structural investment.  And this will depend upon where you are.  In Arizona, you'll charge the car almost every day, easily; in Connecticut, you'll charge the car every once in a while.

amblin

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #144 on: 1 Sep 2011, 01:20 pm »
Great post, Mort.  :thumb:

I agree that 'clean energy' is very important, and it's essential that we should base our lives more on the clean energy sources whenever possible.

But, i was thinking more about the 'conventional' users. Those of us that didn't 'care' too much about the car is 'clean' or not and simply wanted an easy, convinent and cost effecient way of transport.  I used to work for a rather large news group in UK and had the chance to test drive many of those new energy cars. For example the Chevy Volt, Mitsubishi's I-MiEV, Bimmer's 7-series 'active hybrid' prototype, Mercs small Electric cars  and the VERY expensive and hardcore Tesla based on a Lotus.

To be honest, my first impressions on those cars 'r all quite good. they're all very quiet, smooth, clean, runs just like a normal car and seems that they all secured  'a very bright future'.  But, they all had a common problem : 'Why the hassle? ' 

They spent billions of $'s on developing such vehicles,and the manufacturing process was long and tedious. For example, a $48,000 Mitsubishi i MiEV, to build those batteries, they mined the raw minerals in Canada, processed them in Europe and the States, then transported the pre-processed raw materials to China so the commies can turn them into some sort of raw battery 'juice' because it's a nasty and polluting process that most European countries would simply ban such industries. Then ship the 'juice' to Japan  so they can make the fresh batteries.  Yes, the Japanese can then use an army of robots and roll a car off the line every minute and claim their car is so clean and quiet that you can even operate them in a house full of sleeping babies.  But, Why?

Then, there's the problem of using them. Yes, I can use my regular home socket and charge the car up over night.  And if im going very far, I can use my normal car. But, why? Because it's clean? And it's cheap? No. They ain't cheap. I can usually buy a small diesel hatch back for much less, and it can go well over 50mpg.  it's quite clean aswell and i can fill it up whenever i want in a matter of minutes thanks to a place called 'gas station'. .

Finally, the running cost.  Yes, if i use a normal home socket, it'd be very cheap to charge up the batteries, but don't forget it's just not the tiny cell-phone battery you can buy off the ebay for 10.99. They r big, costy and heavy. They r usually the most expensive part in an electric car, and they ages rather quickly.  Car manufacturers won't tell you how much it is and how soon it'll age in the manual (just like they won't tell you how soon you'll have to change the batts in an iphone) . But really we are talking about 5-6yrs, then you'll have to replace them . Although the average price per KWh dropped over the years from $1000+/KWh to around $400~500/KWh. But still, they only last about half the car's actual life-span (say, min. 10 yrs per car) -----> and expect $10000+ for a fresh set of batts in under 5~6yrs.  Tesla roadser can sell you set of fresh batts for ~$12000, that's because they sold you the car SOOOO expensivily in the first place. But how about those 'cheap and cheerful' electric cars that the manufacturers and govt. claim they r losing money on every car sold?  ---- So, why?

Seriously, although i sounded like a crazy petrol head that aims to burn every last drop of fuel and turn the planet into a dingleberry. But i'm not against energy saving, cleaner cars. Yes,  i love my big V8, but i also own a 4-pot Fiat 500 which i totally adores.

 It's just that those electric cars,  they're not ready and i think they'll never be ready.  It's like one of those tedious puzzles---- this is a car build so differently from a normal car yet the car is trying so hard to act like a normal car that it just isn't in the first place  :scratch:

EDIT :  hydrogen fuel cells,  like the honda FCX.  That's more like the future, you can fill them up just like normal cars. But unfortunately it's not ready as-well ---the total effectiency is even lower than electric cars because of the highly complicated manufacture-transport-storage process...
« Last Edit: 1 Sep 2011, 03:46 pm by amblin »

mort

Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #145 on: 1 Sep 2011, 02:27 pm »
The real cost of these cars right now is very high.  For instance, a friend's Prius's battery went out.  It's going to cost them over 6,000 for a refurbished battery.  In terms of real cost, there goes much if not all of your gasoline savings.  Batteries are the main reason I bought a diesel.  Another problem I have with true battery powered only vehicles is their lack of mileage.  Even if you can get to and from work, what happens if you want to go anywhere else?  Can you do it?  Not right now.

As for charging these cars, maybe there would be some way to charge them using solar cells, but unless the solar cells are built directly into the car, this is going to require a significant structural investment.  And this will depend upon where you are.  In Arizona, you'll charge the car almost every day, easily; in Connecticut, you'll charge the car every once in a while.

Im so sorry your just missinformed. The first generation prius's are getting up to 120 thousand miles, the next gen are expected to get 150 thousand but very few have reached a level requiring replacement, even 10 years into the program.
    Perhaps you did not read the Facts 78% of the U.S. public drives a total (including trips to work, the hardware store, video, walmart, groceries, ect) of 40 miles a day which is approximatly only half to one third of the available range of the Leaf or exactly the electric range of the Volt. At that minnimum KWH usage the battery banks only require 11 hours on a 120 volt socket (of which there are 2.6 billion of in the U.S compared to 250000 gas stations)or 3 hours on  a 240v charging station that only cost $1000 after most state incentives. This is not a dream any more!
    As for solar investment in the west of the state of Washington (we receive the lowest solar grade in the country after Alaska. We can expect a full spectrum output for 3 hours a day in the winter and 5 in the summer with a 5000 watt array($8000 to $10000 investment 20 year warrenty!) we acheive 15000 to 25000, kw more than enough to cover the milage that 78% of the U.S driving public travel every day! not to mention covering some of our house hold needs.

JeffO

Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #146 on: 1 Sep 2011, 02:40 pm »
Quote
For example, a $48,000 Mitsubishi i MiEV, to build those batteries, they mined the raw minerals in Canada, processed them in Europe and the States, then transported the pre-processed raw materials to China so the commies can turn them into some sort of raw battery 'juice' because it's a nasty and polluting process that most European countries would simply ban such industries. Then ship the 'juice' to Japan  so they can make the fresh batteries. 

This depends on the type of battery.  For Li-Ion the raw material is mined and processed in China then shipped to various places, Tiawan, Japan, China and Canada, to make the cells.  For the best energy densities buy the batteries made in Canada.   :thumb: 

Quote
Tesla roadser can sell you set of fresh batts for ~$12000, that's because they sold you the car SOOOO expensivily in the first place.
 

The reason Tesla sells the battery packs for that price is they use standard 18650 cells found in laptops and not custom designed cells so they make a fortune on the replacements. 

Hybrids and EV's are still years away from being a good economic or environmental investment.  A small diesel powered car is currently the best compromise of cost and the environment. 

Jeff

Danny Richie

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #147 on: 1 Sep 2011, 02:52 pm »
Quote
the new fi 'wettes get such good mileage because they're turning something like 2000rpms at highway speeds a bit over 80mph...   


Mine is geared about like that. Mine turns 1600 rpm's at 70, but Dad's newer one is geared even higher. I think his turns about 1600 rpm at 75.

Being fairly light weight and low drag doesn't hurt either.

amblin

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #148 on: 1 Sep 2011, 03:29 pm »
This depends on the type of battery.  For Li-Ion the raw material is mined and processed in China then shipped to various places, Tiawan, Japan, China and Canada, to make the cells.  For the best energy densities buy the batteries made in Canada.   :thumb: 
 

The reason Tesla sells the battery packs for that price is they use standard 18650 cells found in laptops and not custom designed cells so they make a fortune on the replacements. 

Hybrids and EV's are still years away from being a good economic or environmental investment.  A small diesel powered car is currently the best compromise of cost and the environment. 

Jeff

 :o Oh i didn't know that!  :scratch: They said they fitted thousands of cells inside and i thought they're talking about the tiny little 'cells' in those german made high tech batteries.. :duh:

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #149 on: 1 Sep 2011, 03:48 pm »
You guys are messing up the "car porn" thread with too much talk and bickering.
Go start your own thread.

Bob  :wink:

FullRangeMan

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #150 on: 1 Sep 2011, 04:00 pm »
Car porn, car porn... :drool:

Do you yet want a Ferrari...

doug s.

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #151 on: 1 Sep 2011, 05:42 pm »
Im so sorry your just missinformed. The first generation prius's are getting up to 120 thousand miles, the next gen are expected to get 150 thousand but very few have reached a level requiring replacement, even 10 years into the program.
    Perhaps you did not read the Facts 78% of the U.S. public drives a total (including trips to work, the hardware store, video, walmart, groceries, ect) of 40 miles a day which is approximatly only half to one third of the available range of the Leaf or exactly the electric range of the Volt. At that minnimum KWH usage the battery banks only require 11 hours on a 120 volt socket (of which there are 2.6 billion of in the U.S compared to 250000 gas stations)or 3 hours on  a 240v charging station that only cost $1000 after most state incentives. This is not a dream any more!
    As for solar investment in the west of the state of Washington (we receive the lowest solar grade in the country after Alaska. We can expect a full spectrum output for 3 hours a day in the winter and 5 in the summer with a 5000 watt array($8000 to $10000 investment 20 year warrenty!) we acheive 15000 to 25000, kw more than enough to cover the milage that 78% of the U.S driving public travel every day! not to mention covering some of our house hold needs.
misinformed?  mebbe amblin's buddy didn't need his prius batteries replaced?   :scratch:  and even if the batteries routinely last past 100k miles, the fact is it means that the walue as a used car is wirtually nil - i wouldn't hesitate to purchase a used toyota w/+100k on it - but not a prius.  and, you did not address all the other issues mentioned, re: cost/pollution/logistics of assembly.  and no, it's not simply the low wolume of units being made that is the cause...  and yes, so the average person drives an average of 40 miles per day.  but, that average includes weekends, wacations, etc.  i guess the average person never goes on weekend outings, or wacations?  what does he do when he wants to go on a day trip?  have another car?  then, there's those of us who have a one way commute that's over 40 miles/day, forget round trip.

c'mon mortie, bob's right - this thread is about dream cars.  electric cars really don't fall under that category, for the most part, unless you are talking about the rare tesla, or fiskars.  unless you technically consider that nightmares are also dreams... :lol:

i am also with fullrangeman - car porn!  ferrari's are nice, but man, when my (electric?) ship comes in, you can bet a lamborghini muira is certainly gonna be in the stable.  a few years ago, a muira was in front of me during our local italian car tour day (there were three muiras on the tour that year), and the sound was to die for.  no stereo required!   :green:

doug s.

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #152 on: 1 Sep 2011, 05:59 pm »



Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #153 on: 1 Sep 2011, 05:59 pm »



SHV

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #154 on: 1 Sep 2011, 11:17 pm »
Car Porn??

Ferrari "Agnelli"  a "one of"

GTO after a hard day at the track.


Steve

SHV

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #155 on: 1 Sep 2011, 11:18 pm »
Oops... reversed the labels..

Steve

mort

Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #156 on: 2 Sep 2011, 12:48 am »
misinformed?  mebbe amblin's buddy didn't need his prius batteries replaced?   :scratch:  and even if the batteries routinely last past 100k miles, the fact is it means that the walue as a used car is wirtually nil - i wouldn't hesitate to purchase a used toyota w/+100k on it - but not a prius.  and, you did not address all the other issues mentioned, re: cost/pollution/logistics of assembly.  and no, it's not simply the low wolume of units being made that is the cause...  and yes, so the average person drives an average of 40 miles per day.  but, that average includes weekends, wacations, etc.  i guess the average person never goes on weekend outings, or wacations?  what does he do when he wants to go on a day trip?  have another car?  then, there's those of us who have a one way commute that's over 40 miles/day, forget round trip.

c'mon mortie, bob's right - this thread is about dream cars.  electric cars really don't fall under that category, for the most part, unless you are talking about the rare tesla, or fiskars.  unless you technically consider that nightmares are also dreams... :lol:

i am also with fullrangeman - car porn!  ferrari's are nice, but man, when my (electric?) ship comes in, you can bet a lamborghini muira is certainly gonna be in the stable.  a few years ago, a muira was in front of me during our local italian car tour day (there were three muiras on the tour that year), and the sound was to die for.  no stereo required!   :green:

doug s.

I am sorry I do feel that I was partialy hyjacking the thread and I will keep the practical non practical aspects away for now. For me an all sustainable electric automobile world is a dream and I believe, that it is one that is comming to fruition. Sorry I get a little exited. By the way Ferrari just annonced that they will never build a electric vehicle at least until they start getting beatten by them! Thanks for the fun thread.

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #157 on: 2 Sep 2011, 01:01 am »
Ferrari just annonced that they will never build a electric vehicle at least until they start getting beatten by them!
Ok, so it's not an electric....but here's a Ferrari getting spanked by a Smart Car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5S1NAMnYKM

I'll still take the Ferrari given a choice.

Bob

amblin

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Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #158 on: 2 Sep 2011, 02:29 am »
I am sorry I do feel that I was partialy hyjacking the thread and I will keep the practical non practical aspects away for now. For me an all sustainable electric automobile world is a dream and I believe, that it is one that is comming to fruition. Sorry I get a little exited. By the way Ferrari just annonced that they will never build a electric vehicle at least until they start getting beatten by them! Thanks for the fun thread.

Indeed the future generation of low carbon footprint mototring is very promising. Apart from the 'new energy breed' ,  the fossil powered V8s 're also getting more and more efficient, and also the increasing number of cheap and cheerful diesel cars in the market.

And about supercars and super sedans,  I was once seriously drooling over the Maser Quattroporte GTS and booked several test drives.  My god the magnificent italian soundtrack! IMO the soundtrack alone is worth at least half the pricetag. So i can understand why Ferrari wouldn't make an electric  :green:(they also supply maser the 4.2 and 4.7 V8s). Oh, btw, and the supercharged big Jags, they sound like spitfires!

   


Mmmmmm, sooo sexy in black...


2bigears

Re: Your dream wheels...
« Reply #159 on: 2 Sep 2011, 05:15 am »
 :D  what is the above car.....??  soooo nice.. :D