Good soundstage plus bad recordings - what to do?

RonP · « **on:** 6 May 2021, 01:20 pm »

So I'm trying to figure out what to do here.

Before I discovered good imaging and soundstaging, I was perfeclty happy to hear music from speakers without it. I describe it as the sound being "stacked up" and localized on a speaker. There's nothing wrong with it. You got your sense of stereo and it was "2D", but enjoyable. Lotsa sound hitting you. Crank it up!

Switching over to speakers with great imaging, I went thru this transition period where I thought it all sounded thin/anemic. I got used it it. I added some upgrades to the system over time - digibuss,minibuss,better power cables, tube based streamer, and now I'm demoing a tube pre-amp. Each of these helped in their own way with the soundstage. The final two in the list especially helped adding weight/presence to the sound at each location in the soundstage. I liken it to the airbrush tool in photoshop. It cranked up the "meat on the bone" to a much higher percentage in the airbrush tool. It filled back in and the anemia was gone on any decent recording.

So.. what I have now sounds great.. and I'm happy with it... BUT for decently-recorded albums.

Here's the real problem.. With crap recordings, they sounded better on a speaker without imaging/soundstage. What I'm calling a simple stero setup where the music is "stacked up" right on top of the speaker.

I'm not sure what to do about this. I don't want to avoid listening to these good tracks, but they are no longer enjoyable because they sound so anemic. My first idea was to have a big red button I could push that would disable imaging. lol I don't think that's gonna happen.

So, what are my best bets here??? Do I need more square inches of speaker driver to put the umpf back into it? I'm stumped.

Speakers: X-SLS

corndog71 · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 May 2021, 04:05 pm »

Just get some Cerwin-Vegas for those crappy recordings. They can even be up against the wall!

SoCalWJS · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 May 2021, 04:07 pm »

Good luck!

One thing to consider is the various Masterings/Versions of the music you like. It can make a huge difference. Main reason I joined SteveHoffman.tv in the first place and why I visit it so frequently.

mlundy57 · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 May 2021, 06:47 pm »

If you move the speakers closer together you will get more midrange coupling which might give you what you are looking for.

Cheytak.408 · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 May 2021, 07:56 pm »

Captain Obvious here.

I know this is not the answer you want, but you need to get better recordings.

Two things you can do with crappy recordings is tolerate them or play them trough a system that is low resolution. You can't "fix" broken recordings. You can still enjoy them for what they may be: bad captures of gretat music.

RonP · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 May 2021, 09:54 pm »

Quote from: Cheytak.408 on 6 May 2021, 07:56 pm

Captain Obvious here.

I know this is not the answer you want, but you need to get better recordings.

You have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the effort to make this reply.

It's just mind blowing.. they sound great until you bringing imaging into the equation. It's pretty dumbfounding.

I am (slowly) digitizing my vinyl collect and these needle drops sound pretty fantastic thru the ModWright phonostage.

RichPark · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 May 2021, 12:00 am »

Do you have the ability to change the phase. On some bad recordings I change the phase on my dac and it sounds much better

BobRex · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 May 2021, 12:19 am »

Rich is on the right track. Many / most recordings have mixed phasing / polarity and don't always sound right. Try reversing the polarity of one speaker. One of the symptoms of sound sticking to the speakers is fu-upped polarity.

Hobbsmeerkat · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 May 2021, 01:09 am »

Call me crazy..
But slam those speakers back up against the wall.
The walls will boost the bass a bit (esp if the speaker is rear-ported) and their close placement to the front wall will dramatically flatten the depth of the soundstage.

If Ron's L.O.T.S. guide gives you great imaging & soundstage, then doing the opposite may be just what you're looking for.

RonP · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 May 2021, 02:49 am »

Mike, thanks! but I don't think that'll overcome the severe amount of anemia here.

Hobbs, I don't really want to be moving the speakers depending on what album I'm playing. But I appreciate the suggestion.

Rich/Bob, I think you may be onto something. I'll putz around with this over the weekend.

I'm going to try the phase inversion in one channel. I can just flip one channel in the audio file and see where that gets me!

Thanks!

Early B. · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 May 2021, 03:52 am »

Welcome to the world of audiophilia. Bad recordings don't belong in this part of the universe. Play them in your car instead.

I've literally eliminated an entire genre and two decades of music that I grew up on due to poor recordings. Good riddance.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 May 2021, 11:00 am »

Umm, no, do not invert the phase of only one speaker, it will sound even more anemic. Unless you have one speaker presently hooked up out of phase, which is very common and the first thing to check, and double check, but I don't think that's your problem because it sounds good on most recordings. If your speakers are correctly hooked up now, reverse phase on both speakers, that can make a world of difference, sometimes. Other times it's inaudible.

Doublej · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 May 2021, 11:50 am »

What are you using for source and amplification?

Tyson · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 May 2021, 04:17 pm »

My DAC has the ability to invert phase. Some DAC's and some preamps have this ability built in, check yours.

SET Man · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 May 2021, 11:23 pm »

Hey!

Yeah, typical Audiophile's dilemma. Over the years I've got tired of it. So, here's my take...

Do:

Set your speaker for tone that make the music that "you" like sound good to you. Forget about the so call audiophile's recording. What the point of having system that only sound good with audiophile's recording if you don't like the music.

Don't:

If you like what you hear with "your" music then don't change it! Just sit back and enjoy "your" music. As long as you enjoy the music who cares what other so called "audiophiles" think.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to get great sound stage and etc. But if at the end of the day you get great sound stage but you no longer enjoy the music then what's the point right? Personally for me, tone is where it's at

Buddy

RonP · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 May 2021, 11:29 pm »

It will be a while before I can get back to this. But thanks to all for the replies.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 May 2021, 02:57 am »

I find with good imaging reverse polarity really damages the image/sound.(sound is weak anemic) flipping the polarity brings some recordings to life (not all. but plenty of the not so good sounding ones.
If you do not have a way to easily flip polarity, in the future I suggest being sure that is possible (when you buy something new)

mick wolfe · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 May 2021, 04:29 pm »

Quote from: SET Man on 16 May 2021, 11:23 pm

Hey!

Yeah, typical Audiophile's dilemma. Over the years I've got tired of it. So, here's my take...

Do:

Set your speaker for tone that make the music that "you" like sound good to you. Forget about the so call audiophile's recording. What the point of having system that only sound good with audiophile's recording if you don't like the music.

Don't:

If you like what you hear with "your" music then don't change it! Just sit back and enjoy "your" music. As long as you enjoy the music who cares what other so called "audiophiles" think.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to get great sound stage and etc. But if at the end of the day you get great sound stage but you no longer enjoy the music then what's the point right? Personally for me, tone is where it's at

Buddy

Excellent response. Build your system around the music you listen to. Audiophile offerings will sound superb on about any system, but the material itself might not be your cup of tea. So ultimately they're not the barometer to build a system around.

ric · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 May 2021, 02:03 pm »

I don't know, I think MOST recordings should sound good to very good, with the really good recordings sounding great. If only a few of the recordings sound great, there may be something off in the system, but if you have the ability to move your speakers around, do that first.
For myself, I have been using DIY Shakti Hallographs for years. They adjust the soundstage as well as focusing sounds. There are many recordings IMO where let's say string quartet, sounds crappy, where the sound is diffuse, sometimes like it's in a drum. Many times I will adjust the Hallographs in or out (I have them on lazy susan's so takes about 20 seconds) and that solves the problem.
But in general, you should have good sound most of the time. Upgrading can also bring an awareness of weaknesses as well as strengths!
Good luck!

RonP · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 May 2021, 02:25 pm »

Quote from: ric on 19 May 2021, 02:03 pm

I don't know, I think MOST recordings should sound good to very good, with the really good recordings sounding great. If only a few of the recordings sound great, there may be something off in the system, but if you have the ability to move your speakers around, do that first.

It's the opposite. Most sound great, but there are some turkeys. These turkeys sounded fine before my system had good imaging.