AudioCircle
Industry Circles => ZenWave Audio => Topic started by: DaveC113 on 3 May 2016, 11:59 pm
-
If you're in the Denver area (I'm in Lafayette) and would like to come by to hear my speaker please let me know. It's a 3-way horn speaker with the midrange horn covering an extended frequency range.
I contacted people from the last thread in the Denver circle, if you didn't hear from me and are still interested please let me know by posting or sending me a pm/email to dave@zenwaveaudio.com
I'm interested in both overall impressions and more specific critiques, please be willing to be honest and critical. Any experience level welcome. Best to bring music you're familiar with, my Sony HAP can take just about any digital format.
Oh yeah... free beer! :thumb:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/DSC09114_zpsoj4dvnf6.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/DSC09114_zpsoj4dvnf6.jpg.html)
-
Any measurements that tell the story?
-
I would LOVE to hear these. I sent my buddy Mike an email to see if he will show up. He is close to you I think...
-
Any measurements that tell the story?
I'm converging on a final design but not ready to share specifics yet. I can say the design controls directivity down to about 400 Hz and that dispersion pattern and eliminating diffraction was a major consideration. Point source horn was considered the ideal starting point, my design sounds a lot like the ideal and is very coherent, you can listen very close for a fairly large speaker and soundstaging is incredibly good, live concert recordings can be incredibly realistic. Bass turned out really well too, I'm super happy with the bass considering it's not a bass horn or bass line array. And it'll get even better with the Hypex nCore nc500 modules that are on the way to power them. :)
But I gotta say I understand the speaker designer's choice to not share so much information and rarely if ever be seen on forums. Speaker design is a juggling act of compromises, all of which can all be critiqued, fairly or not... these compromises may not be understood without hearing the result, which is the important part. I want to be judged on the result and not an analysis of these compromises from folks who have never heard the speaker and just want to pick things apart. I've read people pile on critiquing excellent speaker designs on diyaudio and I'm not getting into it. I'll have to figure out some happy medium for me...
-
I would LOVE to hear these. I sent my buddy Mike an email to see if he will show up. He is close to you I think...
Sounds good! :thumb:
-
Dave, I would love to hear these, but I'm in San Diego ... I think you should show them at T.H.E. Show! 8-)
Any pics that you can share or will that give away too many details?
-
Dave,
I'm game to listen, but I won't be in Colorado Springs until June 22nd or 23rd. We can work out a good day.
P.S. I did not bring my Gustard X20 along due to space limitations. :duh:
Michael
-
Is it just me or does that picture look a bit pornographic? :icon_lol:
-
This is a beta test? For those of you have heard the speaker please your comments.
-
This is a beta test? For those of you have heard the speaker please your comments.
More alpha than beta, there's still more to do including finalizing the cabinet design, active bass amplification and various details. But the initial prototype is definitely converging on a final overall design and I'm getting to the point I'm pretty happy with the result. My reference speakers are the Pioneer S-1EX, which share the same design and exactly the same mid/tweeter with the $30k TAD Evolution Towers and so far every single person hearing them, probably a couple dozen folks, has liked my speakers better so that's a very encouraging to me. But I'll be looking to improve on anything I can of course. :)
I'd like to have the final enclosures, bass amps, etc. done before I'd want people to share their impressions publicly...
Dave, I would love to hear these, but I'm in San Diego ... I think you should show them at T.H.E. Show! 8-)
Any pics that you can share or will that give away too many details?
I'll plan on attending several shows per year, good chance I'll make it much closer to you than Denver!
I don't want to post more detailed pics as the final cab has not yet been built. But maybe some teasers... ;)
Dave,
I'm game to listen, but I won't be in Colorado Springs until June 22nd or 23rd. We can work out a good day.
P.S. I did not bring my Gustard X20 along due to space limitations. :duh:
Michael
Sounds good!
Is it just me or does that picture look a bit pornographic? :icon_lol:
Wait 'til you hear it playing some sultry female vocals! :)
-
Forgot to ask in my previous post (assuming they are a horn design, but just out of curiosity). Are these going to be low watt S.E.T. friendly?
-
More alpha than beta, there's still more to do including finalizing the cabinet design, active bass amplification and various details. But the initial prototype is definitely converging on a final overall design and I'm getting to the point I'm pretty happy with the result. My reference speakers are the Pioneer S-1EX, which share the same design and exactly the same mid/tweeter with the $30k TAD Evolution Towers and so far every single person hearing them, probably a couple dozen folks, has liked my speakers better so that's a very encouraging to me. But I'll be looking to improve on anything I can of course. :)
Ahh Dave so your design is finally done :thumb: Hope to hear them sometime since I am familiar with that reference speaker you mention :P
Regards,
Kishore
-
Forgot to ask in my previous post (assuming they are a horn design, but just out of curiosity). Are these going to be low watt S.E.T. friendly?
Yes, the speakers will be about 100 dB sensitivity with a 1st order crossover aligned with the natural roll-off of the horn. The super tweeter is also a first order xo with a very high xo point. Bass will be active.
It depends on how much output you want though, the speakers can play 120 dB peaks, unweighted, at the listening position easily but that will require more power, so I'd lean towards recommending a 100+ watt amp with them. Many would never play them that loud, but they can... and more. :icon_twisted:
-
Jesus Christ... do you have an hearing aid plan to go with them?
-
Ahh Dave so your design is finally done :thumb: Hope to hear them sometime since I am familiar with that reference speaker you mention :P
Regards,
Kishore
If you're in the area feel free to stop by! I still love the Pioneers and they really are the last word... well, besides the reference series... in upper midrange and treble detail and clarity. Hard to beat a vapor-deposited beryllium tweeter custom made by TAD. But I think I've come close, the Fostex T500A MkII super tweeter turned out to be a seamless match tonally with my midrange driver, and this really made the high end come together for me. I have the Pioneer's bass beat by a mile, half the distortion or so... and max SPLs are much higher too :) But the key really is the close approximation of a point source horn speaker, it has a presentation that's very different from a regular speaker.
Jesus Christ... do you have an hearing aid plan to go with them?
Lol, gotta use some discretion! They play clean though, and way past 120 dB if you want them to. I think distortion at high volumes is really the problem with hearing damage, but yeah, high volumes are fun but should only be done in short intervals. It's nice to crank a favorite track to concert levels every now and then, especially when it's a live recording and you can achieve the same SPLs.
The woofers are 15" with 19mm xmax so they are just loafing along most of the time. They do drums really well, which was one of the main goals... gotta have that impact!
-
Good luck with your new speakers.
I had the Pioneer S-2EXs in my system, and IMO, they were far from the "last word," and build quality was a joke.
-
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Speaker%20Pics/DSC09277_zpsfxbcwpll.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Speaker%20Pics/DSC09277_zpsfxbcwpll.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Speaker%20Pics/DSC09278_zpsfsagxibt.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Speaker%20Pics/DSC09278_zpsfsagxibt.jpg.html)
-
Are they going to be at RMAF 2016?
-
Dave, I'm really looking forward to people's impressions as I'm in Vermont and won't be able to come by to hear these. I've been looking at speakers that play loud with dynamics that don't need mega watt amps to power them. :D
-
Are they going to be at RMAF 2016?
That's the plan! :)
Dave, I'm really looking forward to people's impressions as I'm in Vermont and won't be able to come by to hear these. I've been looking at speakers that play loud with dynamics that don't need mega watt amps to power them. :D
These can go loud and dynamics with 15" woofers and horns is excellent, good bass impact and extension. Drums sound really good, this was a major design goal as I find lots of speakers lacking in this area. It takes a big woofer. :)
The bass will be active, I might do a fully passive version but there will be tradeoffs as far as bass extension because I need a much more efficient woofer for passive. The active version will probably use nCore NC500 amps with a 384 kHz sampling rate DSP module, so you'll only need to power a very friendly 100 dB mid/tweeter combo and the amp should be sized according to how loud you want to go. A few watts would do it for most but 100W can be a lot of fun. ;)
You might be figuring this isn't going to be an inexpensive speaker and that's true, but I'm thinking of doing both a dealer and a direct sale version simultaneously. They won't be exactly the same of course, but there will be a period of time deals could be done before dealers are established, and I can offer upgrades to the direct sale model to get it pretty close to the dealer model. Biggest difference is the direct sale version will have a much more simple cabinet. Still nice, but not curved, less expensive finish options, etc.
-
That's the plan! :)
Cool. Any idea where or with who?
-
maybe premature, but the name of the speaker will be?
-
Cool. Any idea where or with who?
No plans yet... going to wait until it seems more of a sure thing. I've got almost 5 months and I think that's plenty but you never know... :) SET amps sound great but won't be able to fully demo their SPL potential, however a few watts is all that is likely to be needed for a show. I might just use my Aikido-driven SET amp as it's pretty awesome but I wouldn't mind sharing the room with someone with electronics that would fit in well, maybe a big SET amp would be good...
xsb7244, I've definitely been thinking about a name but nothing solid. The design is really a hybrid of several speaker types so first thought was "The Bastard Prince" (thinking of Jon Snow in GOT) but that definitely won't be it! :green: Maybe something related to it's exceptional soundstaging and ability to recreate live shows...
-
I like the name Bastard Prince! For enhanced listening I suggest a blindfold to audition speakers. focus and concentration will be a lot better. I see a ZenWave blindfold in the future!!! wait a minute , you cannot see with a blindfold.
-
Call them Turf Speakers!
-
How are those speakers coming along Dave? Will they be ready for RMAF?
-
How are those speakers coming along Dave? Will they be ready for RMAF?
They are coming along well, but the 32/384 DSP system I was promised is now weeks late, and I'm still considering options for getting final prototype cabs built.
RMAF was a no-go anyways though, I knew this a while ago so haven't been pushing to get it all done... the rooms have been remodeled to the point my speakers won't work in a std room, and construction issues are also causing problems. I was going to partner with 2 other folks (to show cables/power) as well but both are also waffling and might not go. I really hope RMAF works out well this year but new venues might be worth looking into for the future. I also hope RMAF gets more promotion as nobody I know outside of audio has a clue it exists. One of the biggest challenges in the biz is the fact most people these days have never heard a high end system and imo shows should be working more to get newbies in the door.
On the speaker, the design is done and I'm very happy with it. Just need to get the final prototype cabs built so I can share pics and details.
And thanks for all the suggestions for names, still haven't settled on anything yet though. :P
Also, if anyone wants to come check it out send me a msg! :thumb:
-
They are coming along well, but the 32/384 DSP system I was promised is now weeks late, and I'm still considering options for getting final prototype cabs built.
RMAF was a no-go anyways though, I knew this a while ago so haven't been pushing to get it all done... the rooms have been remodeled to the point my speakers won't work in a std room, and construction issues are also causing problems. I was going to partner with 2 other folks (to show cables/power) as well but both are also waffling and might not go. I really hope RMAF works out well this year but new venues might be worth looking into for the future. I also hope RMAF gets more promotion as nobody I know outside of audio has a clue it exists. One of the biggest challenges in the biz is the fact most people these days have never heard a high end system and imo shows should be working more to get newbies in the door.
On the speaker, the design is done and I'm very happy with it. Just need to get the final prototype cabs built so I can share pics and details.
And thanks for all the suggestions for names, still haven't settled on anything yet though. :P
Also, if anyone wants to come check it out send me a msg! :thumb:
So it's passive now?
-
So it's passive now?
No, still going with active bass using DSP and NC500s... just waiting on the manufacturer to get their new DSP system to me... should be "any day now", lol. I might have gone elsewhere but with RMAF not being an option any more I can afford the delay.
-
Sounds like you are going to give some speaker manufacturers real headaches. Good luck!
-
Sounds like you are going to give some speaker manufacturers real headaches. Good luck!
Thanks! I do hope to give some companies like Avantgarde, Odeon and Cessaro some competition! :green:
-
No, still going with active bass using DSP and NC500s... just waiting on the manufacturer to get their new DSP system to me... should be "any day now", lol. I might have gone elsewhere but with RMAF not being an option any more I can afford the delay.
OK, how is the design done if it's not passive even? I mean, how did you do full measurements and analysis without a crossover?
-
If no crossover, I am interested. :thumb:
-
OK, how is the design done if it's not passive even? I mean, how did you do full measurements and analysis without a crossover?
Why would you assume that? I have both dsp and passive woofer crossovers, just not what I want to use on the final speaker as the 32/384 model isn't out yet. I want the best dsp I can get, even if it's only for the woofer.
Tom, the crossover for the mid and tweeter is only one high quality cap, it's darn close to crossover less.
-
Dave how do those big woofers handle serious volume on Telarc's 1812?
-
What woofers will you be using?
-
The woofers are Acoustic Elegance TD15H+, a 15" woofer with 94 dB sensitivity and 19mm X-max (one way). VERY low distortion, super clean sound. I tried other woofers including the TD15M, which is nice but not nearly as clean as the H+ model with it's heavier, stiffer cone, larger motor and VC... but the M can play up higher. I'm only using the woofer up to 400 Hz w/ a 24 dB slope so I don't need the high frequency extension the M offers. Bass really turned out well and with the dsp controlling it, it can be adapted to different rooms and personal preferences very easily and with less compromise vs say blocking off ports. My cab will be slot-ported with the port facing forward, this makes for great tactile feel / impact!
The rest of the speaker is around 105 dB efficient so you'll only need a few watts to get great results, right now my 7W EL34 SET with 6SL7 input tubes and 6SN7 driver tubes is a great match! Definitely need to try a bigger SET, I could see building a GM70 or 211 amp for them... :icon_twisted:
-
The TD15M was designed to be more of a midwoofer than the Td15h. M is for midrange. You can get it (15M)with the Apollo option but that isn't really necessary unless you plan to use it at high continuous volume. For home applications it isn't necessary and doesn't make a difference in SQ according to John Janowitz. I've never heard that the 15H has less distortion than the 15M when used as the designer intended. Its midrange is very flat and the accordion edge will pick up subtleties that heavier cones might miss. I like the higher efficiency 98db) so that it matches better with my compression driver.
My 1"CD goes down to 650hz. The 15M only has to cover ~ 700hz to ~ 70hz before the swarm of subs come to play. Low excursion means less movement which would seem to imply less distortion.
-
The TD15M was designed to be more of a midwoofer than the Td15h. M is for midrange. You can get it (15M)with the Apollo option but that isn't really necessary unless you plan to use it at high continuous volume. For home applications it isn't necessary and doesn't make a difference in SQ according to John Janowitz. I've never heard that the 15H has less distortion than the 15M when used as the designer intended. Its midrange is very flat and the accordion edge will pick up subtleties that heavier cones might miss. I like the higher efficiency 98db) so that it matches better with my compression driver.
My 1"CD goes down to 650hz. The 15M only has to cover ~ 700hz to ~ 70hz before the swarm of subs come to play. Low excursion means less movement which would seem to imply less distortion.
Exactly! I'd suspect the M has a nicer sounding midrange vs the H+ and I like the increased sensitivity too. While the M can play up higher it also has decent low frequency extension, overall similar to a typical 15" high eff pro driver like the JBL 2226.
The H+ does have much cleaner bass vs the M though, and the M a bit cleaner vs JBL 2226. The difference is mainly in the cone, the H+ has a heavier, stiffer cone with a larger diameter voice coil and larger motor. Subjectively, the difference comes through as the M sounding warmer and fatter, which tbh has some appeal over the cleaner H+ on some recordings and is closer to what most people are acclimated to. The H+ isn't as warm and has crisper transients, while also extending quite a bit lower. Subwoofer is optional with the H+ for sure, but with the M you're missing too much and subs are more of a requirement. With DSP especially, these speakers really don't need a subwoofer... the box is now tuned to ~22 Hz and with 19mm xmax I can EQ in a bit more low bass and still have lots of woofer to spare.
On the Apollo upgrade I couldn't get a straight answer on subjective improvements or measurements so I'm passing on that. It seems like it would be a good idea for heavy-duty/pro use but for home use in a woofer that's huge overkill to begin with I can't see it being worth the money.
The most important thing was to have the woofer integrate with the mids seamlessly. The sound character of the woofer, mid and tweeter are very well matched and I believe I have achieved a seamless driver integration with this design. :)
-
Is it just me or does that picture look a bit pornographic? :icon_lol:
+1 :lol:
-
The most important thing was to have the woofer integrate with the mids seamlessly.
too many octaves not a chance!,good quality woofers focus only on bass
-
too many octaves not a chance!,good quality woofers focus only on bass
You are referring to big woofers as 15'', what Dave mentioned is able get from 8'' or 6'' woofers as usually used in Europe, sorry the redundance :lol:
This SF Concerto Domus 6'' Seas woofer xover cut at 3.6kHz:
(http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/cable_man1007_2/SonusFaberConcertinoDomus.jpg)
-
Anybody have a chance to review this speaker?
-
Anybody have a chance to review this speaker?
I am scheduled to go to RMAF and if I have a chance I'll try and get a listen.
-
I am scheduled to go to RMAF and if I have a chance I'll try and get a listen.
Sounds good. :thumb:
Unfortunately I won't be at RMAF but I live pretty close, about 30-40 min away. RMAF doesn't have a suitable room available and I may not get the final protos done in time anyways, I am looking for a different wood shop right now and may have found a great fit, the owner is into HiFi and builds musical instruments too. But I don't mind demoing the rough protos, they don't look nice but they sound ok... ;)
-
You are referring to big woofers as 15'', what Dave mentioned is able get from 8'' or 6'' woofers as usually used in Europe, sorry the redundance :lol:
This SF Concerto Domus 6'' Seas woofer xover cut at 3.6kHz:
(http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/cable_man1007_2/SonusFaberConcertinoDomus.jpg)
Whatever anyone thinks is best, is good, everyone has different views on what wants to achieve,i appologise to dave and what his science behind that is..
thank you FRM for being like a friend to me
cheers
-
Any pics? Hosting is down.......
-
Sounds good. :thumb:
But I don't mind demoing the rough protos, they don't look nice but they sound ok... ;)
Dave - no problem - I don't look nice either but I sound OK :green:
-
I just read this thread for the first time and your photo bucket pictures are gone as usual.
Can't you just post some pictures on your own?
I would like to see what you are up to, especially if it looks like porn :lol:
-
Yea, no one wants to pay the $50+ to upgrade Photobucket. Me too.
Just post in the gallery and upload to here to get around it.
Jam em up upload this to the Bucket Server 1000 times. The owner of da bucket.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=167430)
-
If it will help, here is an artists rendering of what the speakers might look like:
(http://www.hostpic.org/images/1708232308210103.jpg) (http://www.hostpic.org/view.php?filename=1708232308210103.jpg)
-
If it will help, here is an artists rendering of what the speakers might look like:
(http://www.hostpic.org/images/1708232308210103.jpg) (http://www.hostpic.org/view.php?filename=1708232308210103.jpg)
Those look like Klipsch horns to me.
NB
-
If it will help, here is an artists rendering of what the speakers might look like:
Pretty close... the thunderbolts will now be painted on the horns, which will be made out of a cone of the finest cardboard and the latest tech in "invisible" scotch tape!
Unbelievably, pricing will be UNDER 6-FIGURES! :icon_twisted:
-
I just read this thread for the first time and your photo bucket pictures are gone as usual.
Can't you just post some pictures on your own?
I would like to see what you are up to, especially if it looks like porn :lol:
I'm still in the shock and denial phase of my break-up with photobucket. I'll work through it and get some photos up soon... :wink:
Just so folks aren't disappointed I have not and will not (yet) post pics of the entire speaker until final prototypes are done, and I'm in the process of finding another shop to partner with to build the speakers after the last one proved to be a disappointment. Between this and dealing with branding, marketing, etc. the actual design of the speaker is the easy part!
-
I'm still in the shock and denial phase of my break-up with photobucket.
:green: :lol: http://www.wikihow.com/Contact-Dr.-Phil
-
Just a reminder... if anyone wants to stop by while RMAF is going on I'm about 35 min away in Lafayette. I'll be home about an hour after RMAF is finished for the day Friday through Sunday. I can also be around Friday morning as RMAF starts at noon unless you have a press pass. Espresso drinks will be available Friday morning and beer/drinks after rmaf. :)
The speakers have 15" AE woofers, 4.5" custom Omega midrange drivers in 330 Hz Le Cleac'h horns and Fostex T500A MkII tweeters. ~102 dB efficiency, active bass <400 Hz.
Amp is a 2 chassis EL34 SET with 6SL7/6SN7 driver section with it's own power supply. LDR preamp. Digital server source, bring tunes however you like, I can rip/load them.
PM me or email dave at zenwaveaudio.com
-
Status of ZenWave Speaker.
-
I'd love to know the answer to this one also!
-
Hey guys, thanks for your interest!
Well, it's still going forward, the only reason it isn't out yet is due to how busy things have been, and also how difficult things have been in the last year and half.
It's mostly good news, I've been super busy making cables. I tried to hire help but training people is more difficult than I thought. The cables I make generally don't use conventional wire or very simple geometries and thus are very time consuming and difficult to assemble vs a "normal" cable. It's like if you're a carpenter and need to hire an apprentice, yet you're the only carpenter in town and you can't find anyone with any experience whatsoever. Also, due to seasonal variation in orders it's not possible to hire someone as a permanent full-timer quite yet, so I'm in that spot where I have to do more work than I'd really like to in order to get past this hump and be able to hire full time help.
On the bad news, it's probably similar to everyone else, I got covid (twice), my parents got it, my mom fell and broke her pelvis, my dad had both a shoulder and a hip full replacement in the last year. I had major shoulder surgery for a broken glenoid almost exactly 1 year ago, which makes building cables much more difficult! After trying to train help I suffered from intense burn-out. I love what I do and wouldn't trade it for anything but that doesn't mean things are always easy and the workload + isolation + sickness and injury have simply crushed me. I fell behind in both lead times as well as answering emails and everything else.
Ok, that out of the way I have some updates on a few things:
I have made a composite mold for the horn with 180 degree roll-back and it's AWESOME. This is going to be a big advantage over the horns that only have a 90 degree rollback, the 180 roll reduces diffraction and removes one more issue that makes the speaker identifiable as a horn. Now, I think if you couldn't see the speaker you'd have absolutely no clue what it is. It doesn't sound like a horn, or a box, or a dipole... IMO it has the least amount of distortion and diffraction vs most any other speaker type. The horn will also be made out of a CLD (Constrained Layer Damping) sandwich using basalt fiber and the damping layer will be foam used in aerospace applications for exactly this purpose, which will further reduce the contribution of the horn to the sound. Pic of the composites mold below.
On cables, I have a new prototype UPOCC silver IC cable. I've finally managed to completely do away with a plastic or enamel dielectric! In the past I've tried to do this by filling teflon tubes with inert gas, but sealing such a tube is impossible long-term given it's used as an actual cable than needs to flex, etc. My current solution is to plate the wire with graphene. REAL graphene that's very strongly bonded to the surface of the wire, not just graphite dust like most folks who claim to use graphene use. The prototype uses cotton insulation but the final may use silk. The graphene prevents corrosion and seems so far to have no effect on the sound, so the result is a wire that will not corrode and has HALF the dielectric absorption as a converntional teflon wire. This is a game changer and will make for a cable that is, AFAIK, the most technically advanced and ideal IC cable on the market in terms of technical specifications. Add to this a BRAND NEW GEOMETRY that has the noise rejection of star-quad with the capacitance of a litz braid.
I can make this same cable using silver/gold wire as well. So in the near future I'll announce the pure silver cable, then I'll follow up with two silver/gold version for those who want to add some warmth.
Here's the composite mold for the LeCleach 320 Hz horn:
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5StJJ2S/20201021-125425.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PC8GFXGD)
-
Thanks for the update. I'm pumped to learn more about the speaker as it develops!
-
This is a great update, Dave. Thanks for taking a little time to let us know how you're doing and sharing your exciting developments. Keep up, man! I (and I'm sure many others here) are rooting for your continued success. :weights:
-
Glad to hear things are going well for you now. What a year, wow!