Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!

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Early B.

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #60 on: 23 Feb 2023, 07:47 pm »
In my mind I was thinking oh cool, lots more room to play with.  Then I looked up the dimensions... 18" H x 8.5" W x 15.5" D.   :o  Not an implied criticism of it, just a bit of a reality check... that's not a small monitor!

On the other hand, maybe it means that a variant based on the Studio could play better closer to the wall when I can't have the speakers out where I'd like them to be?  That would also be helpful.

OK, I'll be the one to say it -- there's no reasonable option for a "compact" Otica. Bigger is better, especially with open baffle. Don't waste any more time trying to design your own speaker. The work has already been done for you. Keep it simple. Order a flatpack and get started on that build thread.

P.S. -- for your 17x20 room size, you'll want a pair of triple OB servo subs. 

dayneger

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #61 on: 23 Feb 2023, 07:51 pm »
Ok, 2 more thought experiments.

- First, using the Studio as the basis for the top

- Second, trying to make them as skinny as physically possible

The study below is 44" tall, 13" wide and has the identical baffle width and about the same volume as the Studio for the upper part.  So the upper part is basically a slightly differently shaped Studio with the servo amp on its back.  Without the amp cavity it could of course be shorter.  I just remembered the amp is sealed, so I could ditch that wall.  Anyway... call it a brace.  :)

The lower section is basically the width of the driver plus a layer of veneer or laminate over it.  If the veneer/laminate were done as whole sheets rather than segments, it would look seamless (I deliberately showed the segmented nature to make it easier to understand).  Or its gaps could be filled and then primed/painted.

The sub driver frames become part of the structure of the tower.  3 screws front and back are accessible enough to drive externally, while the extreme sides would use 1/4" threaded rod epoxied in the top part and backer plates/nuts on the bottom.  I'd probably stick thin rubber gaskets between the parts for sealing and vibration.

I'm assuming that these GR drivers almost never fail, so that after an initial run-in of 30 hours attached to a scrap of plywood, that the odds would be solid that disassembly would be a moot point (a bonus if the whole sheet veneer/laminate approach were used, otherwise...  :evil:).

The open cross-section concern around the frame on the back side is made worse, but maybe it's fine as-is?












I think this could look pretty trim finished in white.
« Last Edit: 24 Feb 2023, 06:39 am by dayneger »

nlitworld

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Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #62 on: 23 Feb 2023, 08:24 pm »
To be fair, you could also have the double servo subs with the Studios on top, with the Studios resting on isoacoustic pucks and it'd only be about 47" tall. I know this is all an attempt to make a more polished look to the speakers (and they do look like freakin cool concepts). With regard to function over fashion, that would be the easy way, but with any DIY stuff it's sometimes just fun to go crazy over the top. And a cabinet that curvy and complex needs a color much better than solid white or regular veneer.

dayneger

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #63 on: 23 Feb 2023, 08:26 pm »
OK, I'll be the one to say it -- there's no reasonable option for a "compact" Otica. Bigger is better, especially with open baffle. Don't waste any more time trying to design your own speaker. The work has already been done for you. Keep it simple. Order a flatpack and get started on that build thread.

Danny and Hobbs are working on a "compact" Otica on a single footprint using the 8" drivers, so maybe I'm not following you here. 

In any case, as I've stated earlier in the thread, my goal isn't to improve on the NX line, or pretend I'm a speaker designer.  Other people (e.g. Danny, Linkwitz, Ridthaler) came up with the elements.  The point is, can I reconfigure those elements to get pretty good OB performance in a factor that would be acceptable in my space?  Tall speakers and multiple speaker footprints per side don't work.  Hence no flatpack order.

Also, weren't you interested in how well a ripole-based servo sub could perform vs the H-frames?  If they came close it would obviously open up a lot of design space that could in theory lead to more GR business.

P.S. -- for your 17x20 room size, you'll want a pair of triple OB servo subs.

In a different thread I believe Danny stated that a pair of dual driver H-frames can drive 20 Hz to way over 100 db in a decent-sized room, which is more capability than I actually need.  If I did need triples, it would be game over for OB bass.  I think it was the Spatial M3 thread.

Edit:  I hadn't remembered the quote quite right:

FYI, I took peak bass measurements in our old listening room that was 26 feet long, 17 feet wide, had 9 foot ceilings and a large opening to a dinning room in the back corner. I was measuring a pair of dual subs just like yours. They were hitting 115db peaks at 25Hz. They were not being over driven either. That's a lot of output.

Oh, and I was measuring them from 15 feet away.
« Last Edit: 23 Feb 2023, 10:19 pm by dayneger »

Tyson

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Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #64 on: 23 Feb 2023, 09:15 pm »
If you decide to go the Spatial route, I still have my X3's up for sale for a steal :P

dayneger

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #65 on: 23 Feb 2023, 10:32 pm »
To be fair, you could also have the double servo subs with the Studios on top, with the Studios resting on isoacoustic pucks and it'd only be about 47" tall. I know this is all an attempt to make a more polished look to the speakers (and they do look like freakin cool concepts). With regard to function over fashion, that would be the easy way, but with any DIY stuff it's sometimes just fun to go crazy over the top. And a cabinet that curvy and complex needs a color much better than solid white or regular veneer.

Thanks for the feedback, and that's definitely a fair point--I'm still digesting the implications of what using the Studio with the OB subs could be. 

Let me see what I can come up with a bit closer to the home designs based on that, perhaps with the amp integrated on the footprint.

I love your comment about going over the top with DIY!  My career is in product development and usually I'm working on things that are produced in the thousands to the millions.  It's fun to be able to say "Hey, I don't have to care about everyone else for once... what do I want?" and consider techniques/methods that would be a disaster in high volume.  On the other hand, it also means that high volume processes and expensive tooling are also out of reach, so it's an interesting blend.  With one-off home projects I regularly find myself designing as though zillions will be manufactured...  :wink:

nlitworld

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Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #66 on: 23 Feb 2023, 11:14 pm »
I sell automotive paint, so when it comes time to paint my Studios, I went way off the deep end with crazy sparkly candy colors, silver leaf logos, and enough sanding to make the entire hot-rod community clap in appreciation. It's fun to make your projects one-of-a-kind and beyond perfection. Just be careful to not bite off more than you can handle with cabinet assembly.

dayneger

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #67 on: 24 Feb 2023, 12:39 am »
When I built my first GR servo sub (single 12", sealed box) I vaguely recall asking Danny if mounting the driver facing downward was okay, and if memory serves, he did not think that was advisable.  I believe his concern was that gravity would be working against the servo control (in terms of restoring the woofer cone ASAP).  Just a thought.

Thanks for asking this question--definitely a key one to answer. 

I reached out to Brian Ding at Rythmik and fortunately his answer was good news:  "The servo will work in any orientation."

It was cool of him to get right back to me.

I sell automotive paint, so when it comes time to paint my Studios, I went way off the deep end with crazy sparkly candy colors, silver leaf logos, and enough sanding to make the entire hot-rod community clap in appreciation. It's fun to make your projects one-of-a-kind and beyond perfection. Just be careful to not bite off more than you can handle with cabinet assembly.

Did I miss those pictures in your gallery?  It's funny, I'm not concerned about cabinet assembly, but I can barely hold a can of spray paint the right direction!

nlitworld

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Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #68 on: 24 Feb 2023, 01:27 am »
I had them all in my GR research gallery, along with some inherent silly photos.
HERE

If you decide your next set needs to be all fancy paint, just let me know and I'll get you all squared away. Like I said, a rad customer speaker cabinet like that can't be left just Krylon white. Uugh.

corndog71

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Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #69 on: 24 Feb 2023, 02:13 am »
You can shorten the dual cabinet by going with the W-frame.


dayneger

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #70 on: 24 Feb 2023, 06:36 am »
I had them all in my GR research gallery, along with some inherent silly photos.
HERE

If you decide your next set needs to be all fancy paint, just let me know and I'll get you all squared away. Like I said, a rad customer speaker cabinet like that can't be left just Krylon white. Uugh.

Thanks for the offer!  I'd love to take you up on getting more understanding of fancy paint regardless about how this particular project trends.  As it happens, my wife views things like speakers as annoying columns in the way that, at least if they're white, can be redecorated to match the seasons and holidays... at which she demonstrates tremendous creativity and skill.  She's a remarkably talented natural artist.  If my speakers need to turn into candy canes for the winter holidays in order to keep them in the right spot, then so be it.  :)

So, um... any tips on making drivers look white?  :oops:   I've been asked this, and I have to admit that this viewpoint also has merit.

You can shorten the dual cabinet by going with the W-frame.

Very true, individual some people call Rob!  Why does the W-frame seem to get so little love here?  Btw, you've got some great speakers kicking around.

The W appears to be the first step on the progression between an H-frame and a more compression-driven solution.  Do the H and W-frames sound *almost the same?

Obviously many of my explorations have been trying to manage the impression of---pardon the interpretive spin here--large gaping bricks with massive technical black drivers in your face.  Continue rotating the drivers, trim off some excess volume and partially hide them...

If this were for a man cave, we wouldn't have this thread.  On the other hand, how could OB be best packaged for constrained environments?  What if significant others and those with multi-use spaces could love both the OB sound and the look?

That's what I'm gunning for.

Thanks for all of the suggestions and thoughts so far!

D.

Early B.

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #71 on: 24 Feb 2023, 02:08 pm »

On the other hand, how could OB be best packaged for constrained environments?  What if significant others and those with multi-use spaces could love both the OB sound and the look?

That's what I'm gunning for.

It's not gonna happen. Open baffle has a certain look and needs lots of space for the best sound. OB isn't for everyone.

You aren't the first person to go down this rabbit hole. Sure, you can "value-engineer" an OB system, but that defeats the purpose. You'd be better off finding a good box design that fits your aesthetic.

I started with a single W-frame sub because I wanted a "compact" WAF design (wife acceptance factor) but migrated to an H-frame which sounded better due to a stronger cabinet. The W-frame will ring like a doorbell. 

One more thing -- don't seek to appease your wife with YOUR hobby -- that's impossible. :o  Once your wife revels in the sonic bliss of her favorite songs emanating from those "big ugly" OB speakers, she'll overlook the look.
   

dayneger

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #72 on: 25 Feb 2023, 04:46 am »
You're an active and frequent contributor here (which I'm not), so I'll assume you're genuinely intending to help me save time and energy.  Thank you for trying!

That said, some people can't be saved.  :wink:   It's not how I'm wired--I tend to push hard to disprove a theory before giving up.  Do you know for a fact that a servo-based ripole can't come within striking distance of the H-frame performance?  I don't.  I've also searched multiple relevant forums and haven't yet found facts either way.

For a moment, let's go ahead and falsely assume the potentially useful ripole-based sub section isn't sufficiently on the money, and continue the thought experiments.

Here's a, for lack of a better expression, "very mildly S.L.O.B.ed" option pairing the basics of the H-frame with the MTM, dimensionally compressed as much as seemed reasonable.  This is 46" tall as shown, 14.5" wide and 15.75" deep.  The effective piston area for each driver on the front side has been marginally reduced from 76 sq in to 67 sq in as a result of aligning to the MTM baffle of 8.5" and trying to shorten the overall height a tiny bit.  On the back side, more than the 76 sq in Sd is open, with lots of heavy bracing.

Unfortunately, this option loses the volume for the amp, which would add at least 4" to the height. Here we see the potential penalty... an earlier ripole sub version was 43-44" tall while also including the amp on the same footprint.









Tyson

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Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #73 on: 25 Feb 2023, 05:34 am »
Personally I think this one looks badass and is the most likely to give you top flight performance:


Early B.

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #74 on: 25 Feb 2023, 12:36 pm »
You're an active and frequent contributor here (which I'm not), so I'll assume you're genuinely intending to help me save time and energy.  Thank you for trying!

That said, some people can't be saved.  :wink:   It's not how I'm wired--I tend to push hard to disprove a theory before giving up.  Do you know for a fact that a servo-based ripole can't come within striking distance of the H-frame performance?  I don't.  I've also searched multiple relevant forums and haven't yet found facts either way.

Yeah, I figured you were an incorrigible audiophile! :lol:

Ripoles have been around for a long time and never caught on. I don't know why. I've never heard one. It seems counter-intuitive to get good sound from drivers driving into one another. Have you contacted Brian at Rythmik Audio to inquire about using servo subs in a ripole configuration?

Eventually, you'll need to test your ideas by building a ripole servo sub and an H-frame sub so you can demo them in the same room with an NX-Studio on top.     
   

dayneger

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #75 on: 25 Feb 2023, 04:00 pm »
Yeah, I figured you were an incorrigible audiophile! :lol:

Completely guilty  :oops:

One of the most beautiful--and most frustrating--things about developing products is how hard it can be to determine when stubbornly persisting in an effort is exactly what's needed to make a breakthrough, and when it's actually going to be a waste of time (or otherwise fail).

To this day I still get surprised how often concepts that were initially favored go down in flames, and unlikelier-seeming ones morph and combine and then surpass the early leaders. 

Serendipity plays a key role with shocking regularity, too.  Someone misunderstanding a sketch and thus coming up with a neat idea, a flip comment made in gest inspires a winning solution path, a random material grabbed for a mockup simply because it was in the box at that moment in time accidentally had useful qualities no one would have anticipated...

It seems counter-intuitive to get good sound from drivers driving into one another. Have you contacted Brian at Rythmik Audio to inquire about using servo subs in a ripole configuration?

I'm not the right person to attempt to explain how it works, but two drivers moving toward each other and squooshing air out through an opening about a 1/3 of their combined piston size seems reasonable enough to me.  The rest creates the dipole-like front to back separation, as I understand it, but with less energy out the back. 

I do find the inherent force cancellation of the opposed drivers very appealing, especially since my living room is suspended over air space (vs a concrete slab).

I asked Brian and he didn't signal any problems with the servo system working.  Basically, he confirmed that it's an OB kind of construction, then confirmed that the servo would both work as designed and work regardless of driver orientation (up/down would be ok).  However, he didn't say whether he knew or otherwise thought that the acoustic results would be good, just that the parts would function (the drivers would go where they're told to go).

Eventually, you'll need to test your ideas by building a ripole servo sub and an H-frame sub so you can demo them in the same room with an NX-Studio on top.     
 

You're probably right.  I'd hoped someone would be like "Sure!  I've tested 30 variations of this exact servo ripole concept.  It's awesome!  Here're the CAD files for the version that a dozen audiophile friends all found best in their respective systems and rooms, after which we had to commission a pair for each person to be build in order to avoid fighting."  8)  Which may still be the case, but I haven't found it yet. 

I may try posting in another forum or two.  The problem is that as much as I'd love to fool around with this stuff, I don't have much free time to invest (busy job, active kid, house, physical activity, the usual) so was hoping to accelerate or eliminate the learning curve.  I'm starting to consider which way to build a testing platform... particularly about how much variation to try to enable in the prototype (port dimensions/geometry, air gaps, etc).

The other challenge is that I don't have any of the other parts to compare the servo ripole prototype with, and non-endless funds.

I live near Berkeley, CA.  Does anyone with at least H-frames happen to live within a couple hours' drive?  Or maybe I could ship someone the mockup to test.

paolocaminiti

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Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #76 on: 25 Feb 2023, 08:07 pm »
A bit out of topic but:

Will the triple 8inches version of the ottica only play down to 30hz? Or is it the recommended settings but then one can effectively set the amp to go lower at moderate SPL?

I've been waiting for these speakers to come along since I wanted the MTM but they were discontinued.

But the 30hz is a bit of sad news since one of the things that made me the most curious about the servo subs (over for example spatialaudio speakers that I own) was the idea to finally hear a fully fullrange system with extension to (and possibly below) 20hz...

PS. It would be nice to have a dedicated thread to track development of these new model.

dayneger

Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #77 on: 25 Feb 2023, 09:32 pm »
This thread could also be titled "20 Hz - 20 KHz OB in a compactish form factor", so not a total hijack.  :wink:

GR will need to answer about the triple 8s, of course.

In my case, I'd still like to hit a more party-like 100 db level down to 20 Hz, although my critical listening rarely exceeds 90 db for extended periods. Normally in the 80s (at my listening position).





Tyson

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Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #78 on: 25 Feb 2023, 11:52 pm »
Yeah, hitting 30hz cleanly is actually not that hard.  But hitting 20hz cleanly is a lot harder and requires a lot more swept volume, hence the need for multiple 12 inch woofers.

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: Exploring "compact" Otica variants... feedback requested!
« Reply #79 on: 26 Feb 2023, 02:23 am »
My dual 8" woofers in a U-frame cabinet can get to 20Hz in a long/narrow or smaller rooms. In wider/shallow rooms they're limited to about 30Hz, with -3Db around 25Hz. It's fast, but not particularly impactful.

In large rooms they're even more limited in output, which is where an H-frame or a triple 8" sub will be better suited.
The other option would be dual opposing 12" subs in a wedge cabinet.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=173363.0