[Wayner]

Wayner:
 Please try to explain something to me. I'm seeing that the cheaper Grado cartridges have something like 5mv
 The more expensive Grado cartridges in the wooden box have 0.5mv. The cheaper Grado cartridges in the wooden box have 0.4mv/5mv. I don't get it! I would think 5mv is better than 0.5mv. Sure is confusing!

                                                             Cheers
                                                            Charlie

Great question. Lower output, like the .5mv that you stated, means less windings of copper on the coil. This means less resistance, capacitance and inductions that react to different loads from different preamps. This, in theory, should result in cleaner sound, and as many Statement owners (LOMI) claim, better sound.

It is pretty amazing how these 12" black "frisbees" can produce sound of such quality (and that there are cartridges/phono preamps) that can complete the mission. remember that 5mv output is .005 volts. Then, .5mv is .0005 volts. I suspect a 1.5 volt battery might wipe out the coils!

Wayner 

[Charles Calkins]

Wayner:
 Thanks. Another question. Do phono pre's have to be a match for a cartridge?

                                   Cheers
                                  Charlie

[Wayner]

Well, I'm not sure what you mean. MM carts are almost always 47K ohm load, and there are several MCs with high output (like 2.5mv) that are also 47K ohm loads, usually refereed to as HOMC. Moving Coil and in the case of the fore mentioned moving iron (Grado Statement) are all over the board, with regards to loading and output. That is one reason I stay away from them. I also don't like the fact that they do not have replaceable stylus assemblies, either.

So I,, as others have suggested, if you decide to go down the MC road, get a phono preamp with adjustable output and settable loading, like the Phonomena II (Musical Surroundings), that has 13 gain settings (from 40db to 60db) and 17 loading options.

I will stay with the HOMM Grados and ATs.

Wayner

[95Dyna]

You need a LOMC (low output moving coil) preamp that will produce about 60db of gain. Not enough gain, like putting this cartridge into a standard MM (40 db gain) phono-stage will be almost unheard. If you were to put a 5mv MM into a LOMC preamp set for 60db of gain, it would be way overdriven, resulting in huge amounts of distortion, caused by (a, too high of an input voltage, and (b, to high of drive current).

Wayner

Hi Wayner,

I'm looking at an MC cartridge that comes in .4 and .8 mV versions.  What minimum gain would be recommended for those two output levels?  Also, if a phono stage will provide a max of 57.5 db gain would you recommend the .8 over the .4 (put another way what would be the minimum output recommended for 57.5 db) Thanks in advance, as others have noted this is very helpful and it is sometimes difficult getting straight answers from manufacturers and dealers.

Bill

[toobluvr]

Hi Wayner,

I'm looking at an MC cartridge that comes in .4 and .8 mV versions.  What minimum gain would be recommended for those two output levels?  Also, if a phono stage will provide a max of 57.5 db gain would you recommend the .8 over the .4 (put another way what would be the minimum output recommended for 57.5 db) Thanks in advance, as others have noted this is very helpful and it is sometimes difficult getting straight answers from manufacturers and dealers.

Bill

.8 mV ...... 52 db

.4 mV ....... 58 db

Use the calculator here:
http://kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

Click on "phono preamp"....goto bottom of page.....plug in your values, and you too can be an expert, just like Wayner!   

  

It also gives ranges so you can see when you are right on the margins with your cart output.

[Wayner]

.8 mV ...... 52 db

.4 mV ....... 58 db

Use the calculator here:
http://kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

Click on "phono preamp"....goto bottom of page.....plug in your values, and you too can be an expert, just like Wayner!   

  

It also gives ranges so you can see when you are right on the margins with your cart output.

Well, I'm certainly not the top "expert" around here, don't really know who is, but after spinning vinyl for 44 years, a guy picks up a little here and a little there. Just trying to help out without being the "know-it-all".

I will say this, that after you have everything set just wonderful, it can still sound like crap. Many things to deal with like resonance frequencies, cartridge/arm compliance and even if the phono pre and the cart are matched electrically, doesn't mean it's going to sound good. It's all a big crap shoot. I think all of us vinylphools will agree on that. Money doesn't matter, lots of things don't matter. When you find a cartridge/arm/turntable/phono stage that makes you forget you are listening to a frisbee, you will be close.

Wayner

[toobluvr]

I wasn't dissin' you or making fun, Wayner...just having a lil fun.  I appreciate your input on this board and always learn from it!   

[Wayner]

I know. I do get lots of emails and PMs from fellas looking for some guidance lots of times. On one hand, I appreciate the trust, on the other hand, I hope I don't steer them wrong. I think we all have seen someone with a particular cartridge that he/she just loves, then the next guy thinks it sucks. How can that be? I just think it's the (hate this word) synergy of the system. Also very hard to predict the outcome.

However, I do know that there are lots of vinyl brains here at AC, and usually almost any problem can be solved with the active participation of the group members. To that I say, what a tremendous and valuable resource for information. This is stuff you'd never get "googling" for something.

I consider myself a "tinkerer" at the edge of the electrical and loading aspects of vinyl. I read many posts by people that are tweaking loading, outputs and the like. I just plug my MM into the preamp.

I do think, while not "the Master", I pretty much got the mechanical and geometrical aspects of vinyl figured out, tho there is lots of stuff like resonance and compatability issues that just go over my head. I'm more "try it and see if it works", kind of guy. This can be a spendy approach to the subject, but I know of no other path other then some guestimating and trial and error. We can all get close with our set-ups, but if it doesn't give you goose bumps, then you might as well be off by a country mile.

just more mindless thoughts.

Wayner 

[95Dyna]

I will say this, that after you have everything set just wonderful, it can still sound like crap. Many things to deal with like resonance frequencies, cartridge/arm compliance and even if the phono pre and the cart are matched electrically, doesn't mean it's going to sound good. It's all a big crap shoot. I think all of us vinylphools will agree on that. Money doesn't matter, lots of things don't matter. When you find a cartridge/arm/turntable/phono stage that makes you forget you are listening to a frisbee, you will be close.

Wayner

Isn't this great.  Where else but Vegas or Atlantic City would you go to spend $4 or $5K on a crapshoot.  This is why I'm boiled down to the Clearaudio Performance SE with Maestro or the VPI Classic with a few VPI tested cartridges from Grado, Dynavector or Benz and a phonostage like the RSA F117 Nighthawk that provides front panel variable adjustments.  I'm just not much of a gambler.

Thanks Wayner and toobluvr,

Bill

[toobluvr]

I just got my Nighthawk a few hours ago.  Initial impressions say it's not much of a gamble...not at all!     

[95Dyna]

I just got my Nighthawk a few hours ago.  Initial impressions say it's not much of a gamble...not at all!     

That's music to my ears.  Thanks for the input.

[toobluvr]

That's music to my ears.

It will be!   

Be sure to get one before the intro price expires.