I want an audiophile t/t - Should I get a Technics SL1210 or a belt drive?

mountaineagle · « **Reply #60 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 09:09 am »

Browntrout,

I agree

...and I hope I want to listen to it for the next 15 years if I get it rather than be thinking of upgrading rather than listening.

Being a potential vinyl newbie ( or returner! ) whilst I am intrigued by the potential of a KAB modded SL1210 and a Sound Hifi modded SL1210 both of whom seem to take different routes (?) I dont know where I could listen to either ( anybody live near Manchester? ) and would want to before I would consider such option.

I am, nevertheless, intrigued by the possibility of a Denon 103R on a stock arm bog standard SL1210 as a potential second system?

Although if the forums are to be believed the standard tonearm of the SL1210 is it's weak point? G Slee says...no...just get a standard SL1210 with any old cartridge.

As you have said Btrout...I just want to look at a deck when I put the music on and not with a view to figuring out the next "upgrade".

Although, comments on standard SL1210s would be appreciated with a, relatively, cheap cartridge.

Greg

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #61 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 04:39 pm »

Ben/Browntrout,

I (finally) fitted your Grado Reference to the VPI Classic a few days ago. I played it for a few hours - absolutely riveting presentation I found.

I have been away for a few days from home, but the few hours with the pair is all the reason I need to know why VPI sell Grado's with their tables. Despite the underlying hum (which seems tamer with the Woodie than the Prestige), the music shines clear thru

John

mountaineagle · « **Reply #62 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 05:00 pm »

John,

What cartridge, to date, do you best think suits the VPI Classic?

Greg

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #63 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 05:20 pm »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 15 Jun 2009, 05:00 pm

John,

What cartridge, to date, do you best think suits the VPI Classic?

Greg

I wouldn't know, Greg. Thus far two Grado's have sounded great on it (chosen as I really dig the brand and that VPI sells the brand....so I suspect the table was designed with them on it at one time or another)

VPI also sells Dynavector....but, having never heard a Dynavector here (which I hope to change one day), I cannot comment on that one

John

lazydays · « **Reply #64 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 06:18 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 15 Jun 2009, 04:39 pm

Ben/Browntrout,

I (finally) fitted your Grado Reference to the VPI Classic a few days ago. I played it for a few hours - absolutely riveting presentation I found.

I have been away for a few days from home, but the few hours with the pair is all the reason I need to know why VPI sell Grado's with their tables. Despite the underlying hum (which seems tamer with the Woodie than the Prestige), the music shines clear thru

John

You know I've owned well over a dozen Grados in one form or another (first one was an F1+), and have yet to get any hum from them. The hum is more than likely comming from the cables or motor. I also know a few others that feel they same way
gary

mountaineagle · « **Reply #65 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 06:33 pm »

In my ignorance, I accept, I find it bizarre that any kind of "hum" is acceptable, especially, in a deck that is supposedly as good as it gets?

Surely, if there is a hum there is a problem?

VPI appear to work closely ( I stand to be corrected ) with Dynavector and Mike at VPI recommended the Dyn P-75 II phono stage.

I will be listening to a factory fitted DV-20 XL on the VPI Classic when it eventually gets to these shores.

Am I being bit dumb or is it a no-brainer to go with the Dyn phono stage & 20 XL?

Greg

Browntrout · « **Reply #66 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 09:02 pm »

Hello John/thechairguy I'm sorry to hear you have some hum from your table but gald to hear you are enjoying the music all the same.
I don't get any hum/noise on my table so can only imagine what is going on with yours. It might be worth contacting VPI and politely asking if they can solve the problem.

mountaineagle · « **Reply #67 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 09:05 pm »

John,

Reading my post again it appears a little rude.

Clearly a Dynavector is not the only way to go.

Greg

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #68 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 11:45 pm »

The hum really is low level...only heard without the needle in the groove. After that, the intrinsic noise of the disc and needling scraping in the groove overcomes it.

So, it really doesn't intrude in the music.

I cannot for the life of me remember if the VPI HW-19 Mk. III caused Grado hum...but the VPI Classic surely does. As mentioned, less so with the Woodie of Ben/browntrout's

Greg / mountaineagle....no offense taken here at all. Yes, to some extent it's the fault of the Grado's, but they run underdamped and unshielded quite on purpose.

Much as I have found unshielded cables tend to sound better, but noisier, and it's better to have something relatively underdamped, rather than over....so, too, does Grado.

But, with that philosophy runs the possibilty of hum in some decks and the flubby/floaty/indistinct bass that some complain about them

. The flubby bass is mostly ameliorated by fluid damping in the arm....and hum be shielding the motor and a bit of gentle damping inside the cartridge itself (which the wood body provides for better than the plastic body in the Prestige series)

No free lunch in audio or vinylphooldom

Ciao, John

mountaineagle · « **Reply #69 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 12:19 am »

Back to the SL1210...I have considered a Technics SL1210M5G, rather than the Mk2, what are the audiophile improvements? I am not interested in the DJ thing-a-mees.

In particular, rather than "mod" what is the next best tonearm up from the stock arm as the difference in the UK between the M5G and the Mk2 is about 150 dollars and it has occurred to me to get the Mk2 and maybe put a Jelco or a Rega.

Please dont message telling me how wonderful your 5 grand mod SL1210 is as I am considering getting a t/t on the cheap with a SL1210 ...at12oe cartridge and maybe a Rega 301 arm... also a Graham Slee gram amp 2se....was chatting with Graham at his house today he is a nice guy.

greg

analognut · « **Reply #70 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 01:36 am »

From what I understand, there aren't any audiophile improvements if moving up from a MKII.

Also, Kevin at KAB told me the stock arm of the MKII is a "world-class" arm, not just because he wants to sell a table, but apparently that statement is true and he's already backed up with orders anyway!

This here might be hard to believe, but a friend just recently purchased a fully tricked out MKII from KABUSA. He already owns a Sota Millenia with an SMEV arm. I have heard the Technics and compared it to the sound of the Sota/SMEV using a Denon DL-103R on one and a DL-103SA on the other. Any differences in sound quality between the two are so minute that you can forget about them, especially when you consider you're evaluating the sound of a $1200 table against the sound of a $13,000 setup.

His comment to me was that the Technics SL1200MKII is without a doubt the best value in turntables today. You could buy the stock table for well under $400 and still be getting a large percentage of that sound.

mountaineagle · « **Reply #71 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 01:46 am »

Scott,

I assume your talking about your new VPI Classic?

You say you have heard things you have not heard before. I like that album too....but does the Classic convey the passion and the soul....I will be very shortly listening to what may be the first Classic to reach these shores and when I spoke to the dealer today who has just set it up and said it was a very impressive sound.

I read a review not so long ago comparing a Linn with a VPI ( not the Classic ) in which it said that the VPI was, again, impressive but the Linn had a more unforced musicality.

I "regret" much as I dont want a Linn I have heard that unforced musicality in recent demos almost to the point of being a smeared sound but very enjoyable.

The sound for me does not have to be accurate if it is musical...if that makes any sense...and I hope that the Classic delivers what I want as it appears to be plug and play rather than the faffing around a Linn requires which I would prefer to avoid.

Just keep telling me it is musical, Scott, because that is what I want!

Greg

mountaineagle · « **Reply #72 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 01:48 am »

Scott's message has disappeared?

mountaineagle · « **Reply #73 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 01:51 am »

Back to the Technics....

Thanks analognut ....your one step ahead of me ( as most people usually are

) ....I have been given a price for putting a Denon 103R on a jelco headshell ( apparently it needs it? ) ....would that be a decent sound on a stock SL1210 mk2?

Greg

mountaineagle · « **Reply #74 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 01:56 am »

Analognut, I actually listened to a stock 1210mk2 today with both a AT OC9 MC and a cheaper 95 MM and although the latter was through the gram amp 2se when the former was through the era gold reflex plus elevator ...the sound of the MM was really good in a woody less 3 dimensional way and although a different presentation from the OC9 and not as detailed was a lovely sound in Graham Slee's kitchen through headphones!

greg

analognut · « **Reply #75 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 04:36 am »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 5 Aug 2009, 01:51 am

Back to the Technics....

Thanks analognut ....your one step ahead of me ( as most people usually are ) ....I have been given a price for putting a Denon 103R on a jelco headshell ( apparently it needs it? ) ....would that be a decent sound on a stock SL1210 mk2?

I'm no expert on headshells, but I'm sure with the 1210MKII you'd be ok using the stock headshell. That's what KAB uses, and that's what was used in the Sota comparison I talked about earlier. As for installing a DL-103R into it: yes.

The comparison I talked about had the DL-103R on the modded 1210MKII, and the DL-103SA was on the Sota/SMEV. And as I earlier noted, the sound of the two was so similar that normal sane people would have a really tough time distinguishing the two. That says an awful lot about the Technics when compared against a Sota Millenia/ SME V. And the DL103SA which was on the Sota is the more pricey cart, costing around twice as much!

If it was me and I was wanting a table under $500 the 1200MKII quite literally has no competition. The ChairGuy might be able to describe some mods you could do yourself at a later date if you decide to.

analognut · « **Reply #76 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 05:04 am »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 5 Aug 2009, 01:56 am

Analognut, I actually listened to a stock 1210mk2 today with both a AT OC9 MC and a cheaper 95 MM and although the latter was through the gram amp 2se when the former was through the era gold reflex plus elevator ...the sound of the MM was really good in a woody less 3 dimensional way and although a different presentation from the OC9 and not as detailed was a lovely sound in Graham Slee's kitchen through headphones!

Go for it! You've answered your own questions about the 1210MKII. If you liked the sound of the MM I'd go with that also, since most styli can simply be replaced, instead of having the whole cartridge rebuilt.

I myself use an AT-OC9MLII on my recently rebuilt Sota Star (vacuum)/ SME V combo. I have the OC9MLII fully broken in and really like the detailed sound you mentioned. However I use it in a very unconventional way. I have a 31-band eq inserted after the phono preamp which is adjusted to compensate for the RIAA deficiencies in (as far as I know) every single phono cart in existence. This produces a very satisfying sound (very smooth across the whole audio spectrum from 20Hz to 20kHz, no over-accentuated highs, and crystal clear tight bass). The way I did it was play a pinknoise track from a test record through the phono pre and 31-band eq into my computer. Once in the computer I used a spectrum analyzer to graph the RIAA and and adjusted the 31-band eq so that a straight line was produced on the graph. I've used the OC9MLII long enough to know what combination of VTA/tracking weight/arm damping/loading works well for me, so as long as I leave the TT adjustments alone and don't change anything the eq setting can stay the same for each record I play. So the 31band eq becomes the final stage before the amplifier, if you use an amp.

So far every record I play sounds just right. I have heard people talk about finding the sweet spot for VTA/SRA, but the OC9MLII doesn't seem too fussy about that. I run the arm level, per AT's recommendation and it seems to be working great.

analognut · « **Reply #77 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 05:17 am »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 15 Jun 2009, 09:09 am

I am, nevertheless, intrigued by the possibility of a Denon 103R on a stock arm bog standard SL1210 as a potential second system?

Although if the forums are to be believed the standard tonearm of the SL1210 is it's weak point? G Slee says...no...just get a standard SL1210 with any old cartridge.

Mountaineagle-

Just now was reading an earlier post of yours and noticed your concern over using the stock tonearm of the 1210.

Thought it might be worth mentioning that I was on the phone one day with Kevin at KABUSA. He concurs with G Slee. His comment was, and I quote: "The stock arm is a world-class arm".

mountaineagle · « **Reply #78 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 04:46 pm »

Analognut,

Very grateful for your advice. G Slee only seems to use 2 cartridges, regularly, the OC9 and the AT95.

I am considering the SL1210 with no mods other than maybe, and only a maybe, a headshell ( Flashman kindly messaged to say he has a sumiko headshell ) and the dealer has offered to put a jelco headshell on but has also mentioned that the Denon 103r works perfectly well on the SL1210 with the standard headshell.

I dont decry the mods that members in their ability have incorporated - I am just trying to do it on the cheap and would welcome any more opinions on the denon 103R.

greg

lazydays · « **Reply #79 on:** 5 Aug 2009, 05:30 pm »

Quote from: mountaineagle on 7 Jun 2009, 08:50 pm

I am a new member returning to vinyl and simply want a top one-off well built turntable that requires no tinkering or upgrades to give you what you should have had in the first place.

I cant be alone in getting confused by all the apparent "Black Magic" that seems to surround the subject which to a cynical guy like me just seems to be hype to sell a product.

I have set my heart on the VPI Classic but an email from Graham Slee ( yes, the guy himself! ) tells me to get the Technics SL1210 with a cheap AT95E as it is the phono stage that matters.

I have read of the modified Sound hifi deck with the Jelco 250 & OC9 but after all the bits & bobs and Timestep I am near enough the price of the Classic

What do you think?

Surely we all want the same thing...to listen to great music and you can spend a lot of music and get it wrong.

I just want a one-off purchase for the rest of my life.

Greg

look for a used Rega P25, and build on it from there. You just can't mod a direct drive table and get better than that one unmodded. A Rega P5 would be an even better step, but for a plug and play table that's gonna last you for a long time then look at the Marantz.
gary