[mountaineagle]

I am a new member returning to vinyl and simply want a top one-off well built turntable that requires no tinkering or upgrades to give you what you should have had in the first place.

I cant be alone in getting confused by all the apparent "Black Magic" that seems to surround the subject which to a cynical guy like me just seems to be hype to sell a product.

I have set my heart on the VPI Classic but an email from Graham Slee ( yes, the guy himself! ) tells me to get the Technics SL1210 with a cheap AT95E as it is the phono stage that matters.

I have read of the modified Sound hifi deck with the Jelco 250 & OC9 but after all the bits & bobs and Timestep I am near enough the price of the Classic 

What do you think?

Surely we all want the same thing...to listen to great music and you can spend a lot of music and get it wrong.

I just want a one-off purchase for the rest of my life.   

Greg         

[mountaineagle]

I meant spend a lot of money not music 

Freudian slip!

I know you have to listen to decks which I intend to do but I would appreciate some good advice so at least I am heading in the right direction.

Thanks to TheChairGuy, Doug, Warner and those I have not mentioned for your kind advice on the VPI Classic thread.

Greg   

[Wayner]

I'm up for the SL-1210 for a starter machine for you. It's almost plug and play. Dump the AT-95 and get a AT440MLa. Others here like this cart. It also tracks heavenly at .5 grams less then the AT-95, with superior results.

Once you get settled into the vinyl world and decide that you really want the VPI Classic, someone will surely releave you or your SL1210 (at cloes to what you paid for it).

It's a nice starter deck (what am I sayingm it's a hell of a starter deck!) As you learn and grow (along with your software collection), there is always time to buy more tables, Ha, ha! I have 6, i think John TCG has 5 and I have no idea how many Doug has.

You'll have to get an Empire sooner or later just to keep Doug happy!

Wayner

[mountaineagle]

Wayner ( and not Warner...although for all I know you may work for them? )

Thanks for your advice.

What would you do if you didnt want a "starter" but wanted to jump to the optimum deck at $2500 which I can afford now?

The only reason I am considering the SL1210 is because everywhere I turn on the web everyone says it is a rock solid product and belt drive is all hype?

I am tempted by a modified SL1210 ( Sound hifi - SL1210 & Jelco SA-250 arm and AT OC9ML/11 cartridge ) but want to be persuaded by TheChairGuy ( who like you has a lot of knowledge of direct drive ) that his new VPI Classic has "delivered" and there is no need to look elsewhere.

I appreciate that this is a hobby and if you have the confidence, as you have, to jump from one deck to a cartridge to something else, it is cool, but I want to start from a point where I might not have to upgrade for a while...if at all.

Greg     

[AudioSoul]

   Actually, I would go the other route and get the VPI Classic. You wont need to upgrade in the future. And if you decide vinyl isn't for you you can sell the VPI and get most of your money back. The SL-1200 series are a dime a dozen

[Scottdazzle]

My VPI Classic arrived Thursday and I finally had the time to set it up last night.  It was relatively easy to set up.  You just have to be careful not to bump the motor pulley when taking packing material off, mount the cartridge gingerly (removeable headshells like the Technics are easier to work with), and use the provided protractor and tracking force gauge to make the setup adjustments.  Mine was perfectly level so I had no adjustments with the azimuth.  All in all, it's very easy for an experienced tt person.  A beginner might want to buy from Music Direct (no I am not affiliated in any way with them) or another seller who will mount the cartridge for you.  It handled and sounded great from the start.  I am not willing to comment much on the sound quality since I''ve only listened to 2 records so far.  But, my first reaction is that this is the turntable of a lifetime.

[mountaineagle]

AudioSoul, I am leaning to that approach although TheChairGuy has gone quiet since he bought his VPI Classic and I am interested in his opinion because he likes direct drive and I trust his judgment. Recently read that the SL1200 is precise and lively but not musically involving which is a bit sweeping but maybe a reflection of the nature of it's precision. I am looking for the soul of the music rather than hip hop which may be more suitable to the 1200 in it's basic guise.

Scotthobby, Please keep me posted on what you think. What cartridge do you have? I am considering the Dynavector DV20 X which is a VPI dedicated cartridge that VPI factory mount. I might also consider the Dynavector P-75 Phono Stage MKII although Graham Slee has told me he is just about to release a one box MC phono stage.

Will be listening to the Classic just as soon as it is received at the dealers in the UK.     

[DavidS]

A link I have been following about the modded 1200 started by Jeff who was a skeptic from Tone Audio.  Sounds like it is in the same ballpark as the Classic - I am going to read another couple of months before taking a plunge.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=182894

[royphil345]

I don't think anyone's saying belt-drive is all hype...

Some of the finest turntables in the world are belt-drive. The point people are probably trying to make in what you're reading is that just because a turntable is a belt-drive and from an "audiophile" brand, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a good table or necessarily better than other tables with other drive systems. It's the quality and performance of a turntable that matters more than the particular design they use to get there.

In my opinion, the belt-drives on the market going for the same price as the Technics, or even a little more, tend to be toys with wow and flutter over .1%. I'm one of those that believe the Technics is simply unbeatable in it's price-range. If you want a nice cartridge and phono stage you won't want to upgrade right away... it looks like that's about the price-range you might be in. For a few hundred more, you may be able to find a belt-drive slightly more musical than the Technics.

I'm very happy with mine though and I have no plans to upgrade... probably ever. It's reliable, easy to set up, fully adjustable... The stability of the soundstage definitely betters a couple "budget high-end" belt-drives in the $500.00 range I've owned. I'm sure that's due to the excellent speed accuracy and stability. I even think the arm is better than some people give it credit for. There's very little not to like about the Technics... and there's NOTHING not to like about it for the price. Only possible weakness I've been able to detect is detail doesn't seem to come through on my 100% stock 1200 quite like it would on a considerably more expensive table. But, it hasn't been a problem. I like it. Like I said, there is a very "precise" or "right" sound to everything that does come through. It never seems to sound "spitty" or "edgy" like the other tables I've owned sometimes could. It has pretty good isolation for an unsuspended table too.

[TheChairGuy]

A link I have been following about the modded 1200 started by Jeff who was a skeptic from Tone Audio.  Sounds like it is in the same ballpark as the Classic - I am going to read another couple of months before taking a plunge.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=182894

It may well be in the same sonic league as the VPI Classic...but with all the added extras, it's now no longer giveaway priced.

I have a Technics SL-1200 Mk. II, with Origin Live armboard and have tried it with Origin Live Illustrious Mk. II (I would think at least the equal of the SME 309). 

To it has been added KABUSA's outboard motor controller and strobe disabler...and the stock (gross!) feet have been bypassed to brass toes pointed down into a 3.5" maple block.

The rubber mat (double gross!) was tossed and a new Herbie's mat used.

Now, I have not directly compared it versus the VPI Classic....but the Technics sounds less polished than my JVC QL-Y66F ($450 on ebay....$30 in modelling clay added).  As of Thursday of last week, with about 30 hours playtime on the VPI Classic....it slightly bests the JVC

So, despite liking the Technics SL-1200 for value in it's stock form....I have not heard the degree of benefit that Jeff/TONEPUB (who I consider a friend of mine) describes with all the add-ons.  It merely sounds like a better SL-1200 and not worth the 5x more investment.

The stock SL-1200 is very fine value....but improves not enough with large wads of additional cash.  The stock table, brass feet ($30/4), a new Herbies mat ($59), KAB damping trough ($149) and judicious use of constrained layer damping ($5.00 for a strip at Music Direct...trim your own little dots from that) is all I'd go.  For maybe US$750...it'll sound fine.  But at $2500+ with all the doo-dads...I'd take the VPI Classic hands down

The VPI Classic sounds terrific...but, not in any way 5x better than a (stock) Technics SL-1200 Mk. II. 

Greg/mountaineagle - I've been traveling, had a death in the 'family' (our kitten ) this week and have been pummeled with great opportunities at my business...so I've been a bit slower to keep up with matters here at AC.  I've been keeping the same topic at VinylEngine.com and it's been more active there.

John

[AudioSoul]

  I have a VPI HW-19 Mk2 that I concider better in all ways than my SL-1210. The only mod I did on the 1210 was the Cardas rewire, Which I already had. I didnt think the 1210 is worth upgrading beyond that. I just dont hear the majik some people hear from it.
nor do I think it will be as good as the HW-19 no matter what upgrades I could do. It is a fine backup TT thou........

[mountaineagle]

I am going to listen to a basic SL1210 in the next 2 weeks so I can compare it with the VPI that I will be listening to when the other dealer tells me it has been received from the US. Hell, I might just listen to a Rega P3-24 too, just for the curiosity of comparison, but I can afford the VPI Classic so I am presently intending to go AudioSoul's route.

Keep me posted on how the Classic sounds Scotthobby...

So sorry to hear of your kitten John, I have grown up with both dogs and cats and your right they are part of the family.

John, if you were going to buy a deck at $2500 and were not you, but me, as you have the confidence to buy and sell, mod etc....would you still buy the VPI Classic?

Greg 

PS This might not be the most exciting thread to you guys who have a knowledge on a different plane to me but as I dont have your knowledge I have more to lose and I am sure I am not alone amongst the many people wanting to return to vinyl, but finding it a little more difficult to be sure they are getting what they want, in appreciating your input on this forum.

PPS Good luck with the Costco Australia trip, John.

[TheChairGuy]

John, if you were going to buy a deck at $2500 and were not you, but me, as you have the confidence to buy and sell, mod etc....would you still buy the VPI Classic?

Greg 

PPS Good luck with the Costco Australia trip, John.

I'm not sure I could answer with your mind in mind, Greg.....only with mine.

As the VPI Classic will surely not be discontinued anytime shortly and you are either new to vinyl or newly returning (I can't remember which camp you fall into), I'd buy the Technics SL-1200 Mk. II and fiddle with it first.  A new mat and brass feet (you should get a good sub-base anyhow, for any table you would own in the future) and be done with it. 

That's probably cost you less than 400 quid (sorry, I don't know where he UK pound sing is on my keyboard ) and, worldwide, fetches a pretty good share of the original purchase price in resale.  Play with and enjoy it for a year and get the basics of vinyl down (setting up a cartridge, cleaning records, etc), sell it and lose maybe 125 quid for a years use and move up to what makes sense for you at that time (and monetary resources)

That's what I would do in similar circumstance.  In fact, I pretty much did - I sold my Thorens TD-316, was miserable with CD (exclusively) for 3+ years on a $4500 digital front end, and bought a $50 JVC junker DD table to see if there was something more to be had with vinyl.  That moved me to a $100 JVC table, then a $500 JVC table and finally to a $2500 VPI Classic.  Each one was a step forward in sonics...but cost more incrementally each time.

The VPI Classic US$2500) sounds only a bit better than the JVC QL-Y66F (US$500) to me...not 5x.  Ditto for the SL-1200 Mk. II (which I own as well)

John

[BobRex]

One of the biggest issues when upgrading audio equipment is matching the capabilities to what you already have.  John (Chairguy) feels that the VPI Classic is just a "minor" upgrade over his modded JVC.  I feel that he has hit the resolution limits of his system, and even if he installed a Caliburn table system he wouldn't hear the benefits.  I'm sorry, I sold and serviced all matters of audio equipment for over 20 years (mid-70's through the 90's - from cheap receivers up through conrad johnson Premier, VTL,  and Threshold electronics and all sorts of tables from Denon, Technics, Yamaha, up through Sota and VPI) and I can tell you that virtually all receivers are resolution limited (Tandberg, MacIntosh, and a few others are rare exceptions - and even they are limited; just not as much) compared to good separates - either solid state or tubes.

Mountaineagle, what is the rest of your system?  If you tell me that you have Atmasphere electronics driving Quads, then I'll tell you that the VPI Classic should be at the low side of your explorations and that you might be able to get even more performance from other table/arm combinations.  I'd also suggest that you research some of the better cartridges to fully capitalize on the table's performance.  If on the other hand, you are using a Pioneer receiver driving just about anything, then I'd suggest that the Classic matched with a high output moving coil (say a Benz or Dynavector) will exceed the performance of your current equipment and should keep you happy for many lifetimes.  But it may also put you on the slippery upgrade slope, so be careful and hold on to your wallet.

I've stated my opinion on the Technics tables many times, I agree with Jeff Dorgay - it's an ok table when the price is considered, but no where near a high performance deck, no matter how you mod it.

[TheChairGuy]

I've stated my opinion on the Technics tables many times, I agree with Jeff Dorgay - it's an ok table when the price is considered, but no where near a high performance deck, no matter how you mod it.

Hey Bob,

You sure could be right on the (limited) resolution of my system...or that of my hearing at age 46.  But, I hear quite profound and significant differences in small changes in my system.....and have gone thru a few sets of speakers that haven't quite bested these wee/cheap Linaeum Towers I have (and Gallo TR-1 subwoofer).

My room is probably the least good of the trifecta I'll grant ya': my hearing and electronics are probably good enough.

I'm 5'9"/162 lbs and play competitive basketball (well).  I am have ideal cholesterol (which interferes with hearing when high) and blood pressure readings...in fact, my recent (5 vial) blood test looked like that of a healthy 30 year old across the board. I am on no prescriptions - never have been - don't drink and haven't touched weed in 15 years.

I'm also not prone to hyperbole as a rule.  The difference between a Technics Sl-1200 and the best turntable ever made (whatever that is ) might be 10%.  We vinylphools will pay-a-plenty for that last 10% and hear magnitudes more (to us), but in reality it's friggin' 10%.

I don't want to dissuade anyone from spending whatever they want to on vinyl.....but if I am asked my opinion, I give it freely.  Choose it or ditch it - I'm not distraught either way   I just want to reel folks in to vinyl as I think it's the highest res source of music today.

In fact, without a good turntable and vinyl, I am not sure if one can qualify for audiophile membership.  You're more a conven-o-phile if your sources are all digital

Jeff/TONEPUB actually loved his fully tricked out SL-1200 from Sound HiFI in the UK (probably coming up in the next issue)...so much so that I think he bought it. I, on the other hand, with nearly the same changes to the SL-1200 (tho the electonic mods were done by KAB, not Sound HiFi)- didn't think the deck's character changed enough to merit the $2500 in doo-dads.

Any way mountaineagle/Greg goes is a positive I think 

btw, I only feel the VPI is a minor upgrade to the JVC QL-Y66F for two reasons:

1.  The JVC QL-Y66F is damn good
2.  The VPI Classic may still be dozens of hours from full break-in

So, perhaps more earthly delights wait, but either way, to my ears the VPI Classic bests the JVC in all ways but convenience (damn, I miss auto return and auto repeat  )

John

[Wayner]

mountaineagle, is money no object for this purchase? I mean, you haven't mentioned a budjet here and I'm just wondering.

TT's are not a plug and play device. I've been around them for 45 years. The more you understand them, (the geometry, the mechanics, the complete set-up ritual), the better the performance will be and you may not be able to realize all of the potential the VPI Classic has to offer until you have somewhat mastered these things. I'm sure your a very intelligent fellow, as most AC'rs are, but I feel you have lots to learn about vinyl. I'm glad, for your sake, that your getting into vinyl. The rewards on a properly set up deck with your favorite music will be worth it. I have finally achieved true 3D sound out of my rig with just 2 speakers, because everything is coming together. I can sit to the outside of the right speaker, and hear the left speaker with no problem. I can hear fantastic reverb in many of the recordings. I feel like I'm living inside the vinyl grooves when I listen. How can this be achived? thru proper set-up, proper tweaking, great electronics (plug for AVA) and speakers, plus a vinyl friendly room.

The Technics was only suggested on my part, so to not be a budget killer. $2500 is a lot of cash for a first table and you shouldn't put a $50 cartridge on this thing either. I guess your on the right road. Listen to both of them if you can and decide if the extra money will be a much better performer for you.

I'd love to have the classic myself, but I'll have to wait. besides, I have enough tables already.

Good Luck.

[lazydays]

save some money and buy a belt drive. You'll never regret it, and ten years from now be money ahead. But if you must have a direct drive then head to the hock shops as they are full of SL 1200's for the cheap. A good table to start with is the Marantz or the Music Hall 7.1. I personally like the Marantz better. Even a Rega P25 probably will fill your needs for the years to come.
gary

[Scottdazzle]

AudioSoul, I am leaning to that approach although TheChairGuy has gone quiet since he bought his VPI Classic and I am interested in his opinion because he likes direct drive and I trust his judgment. Recently read that the SL1200 is precise and lively but not musically involving which is a bit sweeping but maybe a reflection of the nature of it's precision. I am looking for the soul of the music rather than hip hop which may be more suitable to the 1200 in it's basic guise.

Scotthobby, Please keep me posted on what you think. What cartridge do you have? I am considering the Dynavector DV20 X which is a VPI dedicated cartridge that VPI factory mount. I might also consider the Dynavector P-75 Phono Stage MKII although Graham Slee has told me he is just about to release a one box MC phono stage.

Will be listening to the Classic just as soon as it is received at the dealers in the UK.   

My cartridge is the Zyx Airy low output mc with microridge retip by Soundsmith. Nice.

[mountaineagle]

Scotthobby, how is it sounding?

You seem to be getting some serious, and ridiculous, stick on vinyl engine John 

Whether the Classic is, subjectively or objectively, 5% or 500% better than the Technics or JVC is, totally, irrelevant ...the only issue is whether, John, you feel it is a worthwhile purchase at the price or you wish you had bought something else or kept your money in your pocket?

If your not yet in a position to give an opinion, fair play,but if you think it is the best turntable up to $2500 then that is, surely, a result?

If you think it is the best up to $2500 ( and I agree a SL1210 "dog's dinner" is not an alternative for anyone other than someone with nowt else to do with their time ) I would be interested for your opinion as to the next turntable up and also how it compares with a basic Linn as if there is any significant financial gap between the Classic and the next up then it might be my last turntable.

In answer to the question on other gear I intend to build a whole system around the Classic and also buy an equivalent price cd player for which I have already requested recommendations.

I bought a "cheap" system a while ago as a result of moving around just to get me by - Rega Apollo, Brio 3, Dynaudio Audience 52s on dreadnoughts with Chord Odyssey cable.

Greg     

[Scottdazzle]

Last night I listened to two albums and heard things on both I had never heard before. Tiny details in the background come out clearly.  The depth of field and natural reverberation on John Hiatt's Bring the Family were stunning.  I don't think the bass is locked in yet.   I've now listened to 4 albums and run the table an extra 10 hours or so with nothing playing.  I'm finding the unipivot arm to be a bit disconcerting. I'm not use to an arm that wiggles in two planes whenever I handle the fingerlift.