[TONEPUB]

Im getting my flame suit on, but why do you guys have seven ok turntables
instead of one really good one that you don't have to screw around with?

Or do you love to tinker (which is cool and understandable)?

I hate setting up turntables and fussing with all this hoo hah to listen
to records.  Doesn't mean I haven't gotten really good at it, but I still
don't enjoy it at all.

I want to listen to music not futz with stuff.  Guess I'm at the opposite
end of the spectrum. 

[PMAT]

    Bad Dog! You, of all people!

[TheChairGuy]

It's a learning experience for me, Jeff.

I only seem to learn much by experiencing it myself....I probably have an undiagnosed learning disability, frankly

Let's see - these are what I have here:

1. DUAL 701 - A kindly sole gave me his DUAL 1229 Idler because I mentioned I'd liek to try one, but unfortunately, his did not work upon arrival.  I sent it to Bill at FixMyDual.com and he talked me into the 701 - a direct driver.  In retrospect - dumb move for me as I really wanted to hear a cheap idler/rim drive for the first time 

2.  Technics SL-1200 Mk. II - I needed to know what some of the fuss was about...turns out even with a $2700 Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III arm I like the (lightly modded) JVC QL-F6 better.  Go figure 

3.  JVC QL-F6

4.  VPI HW-19 Mk. III with AQ PT-6 arm/armboard and Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III/Rega armboard.  Learning to love the deck now...hence, this topic.

5.  JVC QL-Y66F - The only JVC deck that, on spec, I'd buy over the QL-F6.  I like DD, love auto-lift/off and this deck is chock full of technology including a 10" arm, magnet-support bearing, horizontal and vertical Q-damping and a 13" oversized platter.  I just bought it and it will be here Friday/Saturday.  I didn't NEED another deck, but I couldn't resist for the price.  It'll be plast-i-clayed quite soon 

There ya' go - my reasons why I have 5   Wayner's reason for having 7 - ummm, 'cause he's a few years older than I am? 

John

[lazydays]

Gary/lazydays,

How are you using thread and keeping proper speed with your deck?

When using the dental floss, the deck was so slow that even increasing the SDS unit to 66Hz (it's max) wouldn't make up for the loss in speed due to the thread.

Finally, I had to ditch the thread back to the belt and the SDS (thru the strobe) shows spot-on speed accuracy at 59.95 Hz (nearly perfect 60hz - the normal line frequency in the US)

btw, the VPI sounds terrific now....I think the new inverted bearing needed 30 hours to wear in.  There's a little pitch instability relative to the JVC DD on pianos, but really not anything substantial.  The VPI plays WAAAY bigger and more involving than the JVC ever did...tho I've not tried the SDS out in conjunction with the JVC as yet (VPI advertised the SDS as helpful for any turntable less than 30 watts, but particularly helpful to AC synchronous units)

John 

here's my findings:
* monofilment is what came with the table I first tried the silk stuff on. I found it to stretch(mono) , and after about a minute or so catching back up to speed. My Final Tool used cotton sewing threat with little if any stretch or slippage when checked with an electronic strobe light. But I always thought there was something better in the back of my mind. I did try the Spider Wire, and was uneasy about using it. Knots were a pain to keep tight, and you really need a drop of Loctite 404 on the knot to make it hold. Spider Wire (it's Kevlar) is kind of abrasive, and this is the main reason I quite using it. Later I tried 12lb. test Gelspun flyline backing with bad results in the knots. I next went with 3/0 fly tying thread that was unwaxed (very important), and this worked very well, but could also see knot catching every once in awhile on the small pulley groove. Then I went with 8/0 thread of the same type, and this worked very well. Later in one of my fly fishing magazines I read an article on using pure silk leaders, and went so far as to order in three of them. But they were too big in diameter for the groove on the small pulley (that is the knot was). A couple weeks later I happened to walk past the thread display, and they had this silk/kevlar combo (remember silk will not stretch just like Kevlar). Bought a spool for about three dollars and have never looked back. When using thread it's best to give the platter a boost as you turn the motor on. This seemed to work just as well as the cotten thread on my Final Tool, but was clearly better with my Opera T.T. My Final Tool run deads on 33 1/3 rpm, but the Opera is about two rpms slow. Was the same way with monofilment fishing line, and have been waiting on a reply from them for six months now! There's gotta be somekind of an adjustment in the motor. The electronic drive on the Final Tool is a wonder in itself!

**bearing lube; I used GN Paste on the ceramic ball bearing that carries the weight of the platter. All you need is about a 1/8" ball of the stuff to last a lifetime. For the spindle bearing I used a very light weight high speed spindle oil on the I.D. of the bushing. Eel oil would probably be even better if you can find it. On the Final Tool I run it dry as they use an Oilite bushing with a carbide ball thrust bearing on a Rulon (least that's what it looks like to me). I put a few drops of that light spindle oil on the pad and let it soak in. Then on assembly add a couple more drops of oil. There is no drag; even with a 24lb. platter. If I ever rebuild the final tool or the Opera tables again, I'm going to use a Moglice bushing as that's about the slickest bearing on the planet when it's got a few drops of oil on it.
gary

[lazydays]

Yup, clean platter & pulley.

I just changed back to the VPI round belt from the dental floss....and it now holds steady speed better (objectively treated via the strobe).  So, I'm back to belt until I can find another tauter method like fishing line (as mentioned).

I'm going to try out some MagnaLube-G PTFE grease in the bearing....so if there is performance advantage over while lithium grease in there 

Don't concern yourself (and keep 'em coming)with newbie thoughts....they are thoughts less tainted by the ravages of time and expert-ness that comes with it

John

John,
just a small thought here. I bought a new SME tonearm off of a guy we all know and love. In the box was a drive belt for his VPI table, and after looking at it I thought that VPI must have been kidding themselves! The durometer reading must have been about 40 on the rubber. Take the belt to a hydraulics place (that sells "O Rings") and tell them you want a 90 duro O Ring that size. It'll cost you about five or six dollars at the most, and be much harder and tougher. Ask for a Viton one. Buena will work better than the OEM one, but Viton is best for wear alone. To me the best drive belt would be a quad ring and a square groove pulley (not too loose on the sides as well). That way the small diameter pulley would have four sides making contact.
gary

[TONEPUB]

  Bad Dog! You, of all people!

Dude, I'm asking, not proclaiming or putting anyone down.  It's shear curiosity as to what
makes people tick.  A good friend of mine after we had about 15 beers said "I'm a destination
person, not a journey person" and it was an amazing insight into his character, even after I
was sober the next day.

I think with hifi, cars, bicycles, cameras (you name it) people are either journey people or
destination people, with a subset of people that think anything they have built (or tweaked)
themselves is WAY better than anything they could buy off the shelf.

After 35 years of being a journey person, I've changed and become a destination person.

I have a good friend with a BMW 2002tii that writes for us.  I love 2002's and think they
are fun, but he's always tinkering.  Or setting VTA...  He would honestly love his 2002
more than a brand new M3 if someone handed him the keys.  I'm the other way around,
after years of fiddling, I'd rather just have the keys and go.

To each their own, but I'm always curious....

[TheChairGuy]

Jeff,

PMAT is more than a bit of a kidder I've found...I imagine his humor gets him in unintended hot water a bit over time.  I wasn't at all offended by your question.

At age 46 and with what I hope to be 40 years left on this earth unless strange fate intercedes - I'm still a journey person (nice term, btw ).  But, as it downs on me that I have (likely) less years left on earth than has been spent here....I'll probably be more of a destination-type. 

For me still, the journey is fun.  When it becomes a bother, I'll just ditch it and change.  No issue - life is grand

In the meantime, making threads like this (Belt versus Direct Drive) is a learning experience for me and I hope it creates a spark in others.  I am thoroughly agnostic as to drive type superiority - I simply want to find out the most cost effective, and ultimately, the best (if that exists) drive system.

Back a bit more on the thread....I cleaned out the VPI's bearing well yesterday (white lithium grease in there from VPI with their new inverted bearing) and replaced it with what is likely the best grease available today - DuPont Krytox.  I got the inspiration to go Krytox from a bicycle frame builder on the net - of all places: http://www.sandsmachine.com/grease_t.htm

I only played a couple album sides with it in there, but could not detect betterment over white lithium grease.  Maybe it needs time to work it's way in....or VPI is correct and that there is no benefit to much beyond std white lithium grease.  The platter does spin about 30% longer than with the lithium grease in there....probably a good sign 

I have to say that I am very well pleased with the way the VPI is now playing all set up right, new inverted bearing and fancy-schmancy grease, VTAF-equipped AQ PT-6 arm and (borrowed) SDS.  The sound is bigger/wider/deeper than any of my direct drives and sustained piano notes only have the slightest bit of pitch instability to these ears.....tho it could well be the original analog recording itself that is the cause.

John

[Wayner]

Jeff,

I am an engineer! We are born to tinker. Besides, I think 4 of my decks are outstanding (for their time period) 

I am not going to buy anymore cartridges, though. Some of the kids will have to go barefoot, share their shoes with the siblings. 

Wayner

[Wind Chaser]

...why do you guys have seven ok turntables
instead of one really good one that you don't have to screw around with?

Great question - why would anyone want a number of inferior turntables, phono cartridges, amps speakers etc when you can sink your teeth into one much more higher performing unit?

I don't buy that journey vs. destination philosophy.  The journey isn't worth anything if it is meandering without a clear destination. 

Guess there must be a "Sunday driving" approach to audio... 

[TheChairGuy]

Great question - why would anyone want a number of inferior turntables, phono cartridges, amps speakers etc when you can sink your teeth into one much more higher performing unit?

I don't buy that journey vs. destination philosophy.  The journey isn't worth anything if it is meandering without a clear destination. 

Guess there must be a "Sunday driving" approach to audio... 

I don't live my life for anyone's enjoyment except my own...so, it's whatever path I choose to take so long as no one is harmed along the way.

As owning 5 TT's hasn't harmed a soul that I could possibly think of - I'm perfectly okay with my meandering-while-learning technique. I revel in my meta-thinking and open-mindedness about wide ranges of subjects (I haven't always, but feel quite comfortable in my skin nowadays) and feel a bit sorrowful for those who see's life only as a destination.

For me, right now, the journey is the destination...but, I'm open to that changing too, in time.

C'est le vie, John

[Wayner]

Well Windchaser, I will show you soon. I am capable of designing turntables, are you? Many of my tables are collectors items. The AR-XA was one of the largest selling, best sounding table of its era for about $69. The Empire 598 II considered by many to be another ultraclassic was purchased by myself for $204 when I was 16. MY VPI Hw-19jr w/Audioquest PT-6 was another audiophile classic back in the mid '90s. The Technics SL-1200 has been bought by more people then any other table. It is another classic whos design has stood the test of time (30 years). How are any of these tables "deficient". What superior table would you like me to buy?

The sad thing is that there are lots of audio snobs that think that big dollar tables make big dollar sound. I don't really care. My sound is already superior to CD playback. I don't have thousands stuck in any table. If one dies, I say that was a classic and move one.

While people are starving in the US and losing their homes and jobs, I'm not going to sit and drink my scotch enjoying my 5K cartridge on a 10k table. In my mind, the guy that spent this money on himself, on junk like that is an ultra-dink. That isn't a hobby, it's an obsession. A mark of status.

I try to use my knowledge to make my tables perform at their optimum. I understand the geometry, the science of a table. I make my own alignment jigs with my CAD. I tweak them to their ultimate playback capability. John TCG does the same thing. So do many others. Money doesn't always buy performance. You should hear what a $600 table sounds like thru a Van Alstine Insight preamp and amp.

Wayner

[BobM]

A couple weeks later I happened to walk past the thread display, and they had this silk/kevlar combo (remember silk will not stretch just like Kevlar). Bought a spool for about three dollars and have never looked back.

So is this the final - best - thread to find and use in place of the VPI rubber belt? Obvoiusly I've been waiting for a final outcome to be declared before I take the plunge again. I did try thread some time ago but it stretched, so I went back to the belt.

Also - can someone please show me the link to tying the proper knot?

Thanks,
Bob

[woodsyi]

Also - can someone please show me the link to tying the proper knot?


Bob

[BobM]

Been there, done that. Yup, that's one knot that stays tied ... or costs a whole lot to untie. Doesn't stretch at all, either. 

I looked through the thread (no pun intended) again and didn't see anything special. Just that regular loop knot from Scheu. I thought someone recommended a special knot in another thread somewhere. I'll see if I can find it again and post it here if I do.

Thanks guys, looking forward to trying this out again.

Bob

[Wayner]

I'm thinking that there are lots of inferior belts out there. My Empire original belt claimed to be ground to .0001" tolerance. The replacement belts seem to have a varying thickness to it as I run the belt through my fingers. I am going to go to my local NAPA store and see if they have an O-ring that is close to the size belt I need. I know they make O-rings of all sorts of sizes. I think neoprene would be good enough. I'm not impressed with the thread idea anymore.

Wayner

[Wind Chaser]

I don't live my life for anyone's enjoyment except my own...so, it's whatever path I choose to take so long as no one is harmed along the way.

Fair enough.  And really it shouldn't be any other way.  It's too easy to say ones own thinking is more logical and practical than another’s.  I've been into audio in a serious way for almost 35 years.  In the early years I went dozens of TT's - until 1981.  I bought a Rega P2 with a Grace Arm and an F-9E.  There was a substantial difference, not only in the cost but the sound of this system and all my previous TT's. 

But within 6 months the Rega was replaced with an Oracle Delphi MkII.  I kept the F-9E but replaced the Grace arm with a Magnepan tone arm.  That’s right, back then Magnepan made tone arm.  Looking back despite the favorable review from TAS, it was a pretty crappy arm.  Needless to say Magnepan got out of the tone arm business and stuck with what they did best.

Anyhow for as much as the Rega Grace system was an upgrade over all previous Mid Fi TT’s, the Oracle and Magnepan with the Grace F-9E was a substantial improvement.  Eventually I replaced the Maggie arm $500 with an Alphason HR-100S $1400 and... if you don’t believe a tone arm makes a BIG difference, you may as well go back to digital…  I won’t go into details the various cartridges I’ve owned but back then my vinyl PB system was as about as good as it gets, and could probably still stand up against the best of what’s out there even today, because back then there were only two companies that offered something so radical... a strain gauge phono cartridge and AFAIK, there is only company today that offers that ultra high performance analogue technology.

My point is that in every successive upgrade, there was a marked improvement in the sound quality, which led to a greater experience in the enjoyment of listening to music.


Wayner,

Believe me I know setting up a TT isn’t haphazard affair.  But no matter how precise your system is set up, it’s only gonna get you so far down the road of what is really possible.  I was only 18, had a union paying job and was living at home when I spent the equivalent on my TT to what a new car would cost back then - never mind amplification, speakers, cables etc.  It wasn’t a status symbol or ego trip, just something I did because that was my focus and it gave me supreme joy. 

I’m okay with you thinking I’m a snob and an ultra dink for doing that. And you are correct, money doesn’t always buy performance, the Magnepan arm being a case in point, but money combined with insight will take you a lot further down the yellow brick road than insight will alone.

[Vinyl-Addict]

I'm thinking that there are lots of inferior belts out there. My Empire original belt claimed to be ground to .0001" tolerance. The replacement belts seem to have a varying thickness to it as I run the belt through my fingers. I am going to go to my local NAPA store and see if they have an O-ring that is close to the size belt I need. I know they make O-rings of all sorts of sizes. I think neoprene would be good enough. I'm not impressed with the thread idea anymore.

Wayner

Here's a link to an O-Ring chart that might help you determine if one is available in the size you need.
http://www.marcorubber.com/sizingchart.htm

[lazydays]

I'm thinking that there are lots of inferior belts out there. My Empire original belt claimed to be ground to .0001" tolerance. The replacement belts seem to have a varying thickness to it as I run the belt through my fingers. I am going to go to my local NAPA store and see if they have an O-ring that is close to the size belt I need. I know they make O-rings of all sorts of sizes. I think neoprene would be good enough. I'm not impressed with the thread idea anymore.

Wayner

I've never seen Neoprene rope before (that's what the raw material O rings are made is called). Viton has much better wear and stretch resistence than just about anything I've found. Also Viton is pretty easy to find in the material. One word of caution; make sure you get the correct diameter material. Some of it's metric and some of it's inch, but if you measure it the stuff will always be slightly oversized. After you get the O ring take a scotch brite pad and scrub the rib left on it from the molding process. VPI looks to be using standard 1/8" rope.
    Best place to buy O rings (other than a good hydraulics shop) is normally a ball bearing retailer. You can even by them from McMaster Karr
gary

[TheChairGuy]

BobM et, al
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LG&Category_Code=V1

I don't need a belt as yet for my VPI (HW-19)...but, when I do, I'll be asking LPGear what makes their special belt so 'tranquil' for $5 more than std?

I assume it's supposed to be built to a higher standard.

John

[BobM]

Thanks, but I've already got a couple of belts. I've found that a belt that seems overly used can be brought back to life very easily by boiling it in water for 30 seconds, drying and putting new talc on it. VPI recommends this and it does seem to work quite well.

Gary is sending me some of that magic silk-kevlar thread to try out (Thanks again). I'll post my thoughts after I give it a shot.

Bob