[JackD201]

I've been dragging my feet on this but I'm pretty sure the Townsend Rock is the table that's going to bring me back to analog, just because it's so damn good. Lots of choices to be sure...but I just can't count out the Rock.

A table that is small but performs above its weight class. It could be easier to level and the clamp easier to use but If you are into a full, deep sound reminiscent of TD124s and the like, it is definitely a contender. That front trough thing really works. It is a pedestrian table when it is not in use.

[Devil Doc]

What do you think of Andre Jenning's article in the latest TAS?

Haven't read it yet. It's on the night stand. I'll get to it by and by. I do recommend J. Gordon Holt's article on turntable set up, published many years ago. It's available on Sterophile's web site. Just as an aside, oddly I find leveling the damn things the most difficult part.

Doc

[jimdgoulding]

I can't comprehend that article.  I don't even understand how it's possible to angle your cart to where the back side of the stylus is at a right angle with the record groove let alone why.  My tonearm post can't even get that high. 

DETAIL has become something of an obsession with some guys in my audio club.  Man, I've heard it like I never thought possible and it's a distraction to me, not an enhancement.  It calls attention to itself.  And I'm in an minority, possibly of one, when it comes to volume setting.  It is of less interest to me to hear what the conductor or the microphone might have heard/captured (depending on how the mike or mikes are placed) than what I have heard sitting in an audience.  You only have so much space in the front end of your room.  Here . . I wrote this to members of my club:

"One man’s opinion.  Thirty years ago- bloody geez, longer than that- I listened to a lot of live music in places like The Jazz Workshop and Both/And in San Francisco, in music halls on Geary St and in SF Symphony Hall, even The Matrix and The Fillmore.  The very first multi rock band concert was held at a domed arena near Fisherman’s Wharf, not The Fillmore nor the Carousel Ballroom, and I was a guest of The Family Dog, the promoter.  Once, I was seated so close to the stage in The Jazz Workshop I could have reached out and touched the bell of Coltrane’s tenor had I wanted to, and once on the very last row of the third balcony for Andres Segovia on Geary St. tho that didn’t stop the lady sitting next to me from sobbing, bless her heart.  It was that concert that first made me interested in being able to re-produce the event as tho I was there.  Well, save for the aforementioned lady, but, indeed, for the sound of Segovia’s acoustic guitar in that very spacious place. 

Listening mostly to acoustic music recorded on location these days, and that would include some jazz recordings, and because I know how music can sound in about any setting and seat, I make judicious use of my volume control and I am about to tell you why.  My speakers are set up so that they are equidistant from the side walls of my room and out a generous ways from the wall behind them, too.  This is so reflection of waveforms by my room’s surfaces are not arriving so quickly or out of sync as to contribute anything superfluous or time skewed from my recordings.  Just what’s happening as if I were onsite bout mid hall.  Season ticket holders make it so. 

Let’s take a famous recording like Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall.  This is a famous recording for a reason.  For the sake of making what I am trying to communicate understood, work with me here.  At loud volume, Belafonte will dominate the space between your speakers.  His image will be blown up past the point of how you would have heard him if you were seated on the front row and past the point where other things informative won’t suffer.  There is a reason this is such a famous recording more than for the music.  It is because of transparency to and intimacy of the EVENT.  Conscious use of your volume control is your ticket to admission.

In some cases a ticket isn’t warranted.  I listen to popular music.  I like many studio made recordings.  A fellow HAS member with a rather exceptional system played Paul Simon’s Graceland for me this weekend at pretty high volume.  Have mercy, miss Percy . . It was freakin sensational!!  Music from the flick Cat People, too, which I also have and for the same reason.

Not the same thing, however.  Off now to listen to some stuff sung in Latin from the 14th century or thereabouts.  I will be immersed in the place/space and intimate with the singers as tho I were sitting in a pew- which would entail dialing in ye olde volume control.  Try it for yourself."

I reckon you listeners who listen to lots of classical music (made on location, generally) know or can imagine what I'm talking about.  I'll take the volume enhanced immediacy of punk bands recording in the 80's over stylized recordings like those of Steely Dan- who comes to mind- tho I DO like the group and their music.  In this case, who cares about realistic perspective.  It's supposed to be in your face.  I just have this thing for in-person realism and I can't tell you the last time I was sitting where any microphone was standing.  Close, on occasion. 

Furthermore, my detail addicted mates seldom change their volume control.  But, dude, DO they have systems.  One fellow has four vintage tube amps with no pre, just an uber expensive volume control with a 2.5 thousand buck K&K phone amp.  He's comin around, tho. 

I think my novelty is becoming a little credulous.

Love photos (bet I'm not alone).  Hope you guys keep it up.  Thanks for indulging my rant.

[jimdgoulding]

The next morning.  Man, I don't know what made me post that under this topic other than it's a peeve of mine and I've been wanting to "Say it loud- Say it proud" somewhere.  OCD, maybe.  Too much vino.  I ought to see a doctor.  Didn't think it warranted a topic of its own . 

[JackD201]

Tell us what wine you drank and we'll forgive all Jim 

[brooklyn]

Hey Jim, I read your article (rant) last night with interest but I was waiting for the part about a turntable as I read it.. What kind of vino was that exactly? I might want to pick some of it up. 

Good article though, I understand where your coming from..

[Devil Doc]

"In vino et veritas"

Doc

[jimdgoulding]

Thanks, Jack.  Thanks, Brooklyn, Doc.  Vinyl is what I mostly play cause my records outnumber my disc's a whole lot and cause music sounds more becoming to me in several ways.  Not knocking digital.  My dig front end would be considered modest and dated in present company.  Of course, my analog front end IS dated. 

Actually, I was drinking 16oz cans of whatever was on sale at the store.  Didn't want to seem anymore boorish than I naturally can be so I embellished a hair.  I do drink wine but hang on to it for more special occasions.  Got a few nice Cabs just sitting around if ever any you cats might care to stop by.

[thunderbrick]

I thought it was a helluva good post, JG.  Your description of Belafonte at Carnegie was spot on, and why we hang on to the 12" platters.
It's not about the TTs, as many will do well.  It's about delivery of real life as close as we can get it.

BTW, what's the address of said Cabs?  I don't drink, but for your system played loud, a nice cabernet, and Harry B. I might just make an exception.   

[Wind Chaser]

I'm not convinced that the table itself makes that much of a difference. How many of you can honestly say--all else being equal in the system, the arm, cartridge, phono section etc--you've heard a significant difference merely on account of switching out the turntable alone?

My contention is most people, when they change tables, this includes the arm and in some cases the cartridge too. When I replaced my Rega Planner 2 with an Oracle Delphi, I didn't hear that much of a difference, and AFAIK that difference may have well been attributed to set up. On the other hand, when I upgraded my arm, the difference was profound. Night and day.

In its most simplest terms, the turntable spins the record. The cartridge mounted to the arm tracks the groove and converts the mechanical energy into electrical. This is where the magic begins. In order for the cartridge to do that as best as it possibly can, everything depends on the arm. The materials it is made of and how unyielding it is to vibration. The more inert, the better. This is why even the materials it is made of come into play.

Back in the day, two of the most highly acclaimed tone arms were the Alphason HR-100S and the Syrinx PU-3. When I replaced the Alphason with the Syrinx the difference (disappointment) was far greater than the improvement made by the Oracle in lieu of the Rega. Titanium vs plastic, I should have known better. But this is what happens when you read audio rags too much.

The point is, the relationship between the arm and cartridge is of far greater consequence than the table itself. If I was looking to get back into vinyl, I'd buy the best arm and cartridge I could afford and worry less about the table. Just make sure everything is set up right or it will all be for nothing.

[neobop]

I'm not convinced that the table itself makes that much of a difference. How many of you can honestly say--all else being equal in the system, the arm, cartridge, phono section etc--you've heard a significant difference merely on account of switching out the turntable alone?

My contention is most people, when they change tables, this includes the arm and in some cases the cartridge too. When I replaced my Rega Planner 2 with an Oracle Delphi, I didn't hear that much of a difference, and AFAIK that difference may have well been attributed to set up. On the other hand, when I upgraded my arm, the difference was profound. Night and day.

In its most simplest terms, the turntable spins the record. The cartridge mounted to the arm tracks the groove and converts the mechanical energy into electrical. This is where the magic begins. In order for the cartridge to do that as best as it possibly can, everything depends on the arm. The materials it is made of and how unyielding it is to vibration. The more inert, the better. This is why even the materials it is made of come into play.

Back in the day, two of the most highly acclaimed tone arms were the Alphason HR-100S and the Syrinx PU-3. When I replaced the Alphason with the Syrinx the difference (disappointment) was far greater than the improvement made by the Oracle in lieu of the Rega. Titanium vs plastic, I should have known better. But this is what happens when you read audio rags too much.

The point is, the relationship between the arm and cartridge is of far greater consequence than the table itself. If I was looking to get back into vinyl, I'd buy the best arm and cartridge I could afford and worry less about the table. Just make sure everything is set up right or it will all be for nothing.

Seems logical based on your experience, but it isn't true.  Sometimes you make an unintended sideways move, or even have things go downhill, but it ain't necessarily so.  I think you must consider the entire record player as a system and it's hard to quantify the importance of individual parts. Phono stage must be considered as well.

I rank the table as the most important part, which is not to say it will sound good with a second rate arm and cart.  Switch your arm/cart from an inexpensive mass market table with light platter, to a well made expensive table with quality bearings, good speed stability and heavy platter and you'll hear a dramatic difference.   Because a switch like this is somewhat unusual (mass market decks have dedicated arms) you don't think of it in such terms.  A table like a Linn Basic or Revolver with a basic arm will be more improved by switching to an LP12, than an Ittock.  I think the same can be said for a Thorens 125 to a 124, to cite a couple of examples.
neo

[brooklyn]

I have never upgraded a tonearm alone but many years ago I had one of the economy model Thorens turntables, the base was made of plastic, back then my only music source was vinyl.

I stepped up to an Ariston table with a Grace 707 MII arm and I believe a Denon low output MC cartridge set up by a local dealer. Out of everything I changed in my system up until that point, amps, preamps, etc, I would have never thought up to that point that a complete quality turntable/cartridge could have made the biggest difference in sound in my audio system.

Lesson learned.

[Doctor Fine]

I use to have a Thorens TD320, way back in 1986. I gave it to my cousin when CDs became all the rage. Thinking about coming back to analog. Can anyone out there name a TT that made you CONVERT back to analog? I mean that really, really revealing TT that is just great? Thinking below 10K but really something between 1K to 5K.

Of course, I need to know the tonearm and cartridge that mates well with the TT.

I have been an audio dealer since the 60s.  Sold and set up tables for 50 years.  Bought one of the "impressive wedding cake sized 50 lb platter fat-ass*d super-tables"  that Mikey Fremer raves about.  It was cr*p

My personal under $5K table set up is now and forevermore shall be a Technics SL1210-5MG with a KAB oil bath tonearm upgrade, extra balancing weights on the back (made from some foreign coins with a hole in the center) extra weight on the headshell, a Denon DL103, some K&K moving coil output transformers (totally adjustable for impedance, load, capacitance and output) a RM-9 tube phono pre from Jolida (fully adjustable with impedance, capacitance and output drive).

The table easily pulls the extra drag of a heavy weight classic moving coil WITHOUT any wow and flutter.  Unlike the ten thousand dollar mega table I was so happy to trash...

The Denon DL103 cartridge is a total audio classic and has a cult following.  It really sings IF YOU SET IT UP CORRECTLY WITH TRANSFORMER AND PHONO PRE...and an arm which is heavy in weight (gives the cart something to push against) and tuned to have its resonance in the 9 to 11 HZ range...

Overall this is the finest audio source I have ever heard pound for pound and dollar for dollar.  Very "alive" clear, "you are THERE," and extremely SATISFYING to listen to music through.  Things sound REAL.

I have ten grand in my DAC and this under 3K vinyl rig is its equal---in a vinyl sort of way.  It trades the silence and clarity of digital for near silence but greater "air" and believability.  Vinyl is just plain---well, MAGIC. 

But you have to have a turntable phono cartridge setup that is hitting HARD on all eight cylinders---proper electrical matching of every parameter is up to YOU with a turntable.  Unless you buy something put together by the factory---you NEED to know how to get an energy match out of the pieces---and you have to do it all by yourself.

Frankly I could almost live without the hassle.  Until I drop that needle and the magic happens.  Every record I own.  Every time.

What a hobby.

[JackD201]

I'm not convinced that the table itself makes that much of a difference. How many of you can honestly say--all else being equal in the system, the arm, cartridge, phono section etc--you've heard a significant difference merely on account of switching out the turntable alone?

My contention is most people, when they change tables, this includes the arm and in some cases the cartridge too. When I replaced my Rega Planner 2 with an Oracle Delphi, I didn't hear that much of a difference, and AFAIK that difference may have well been attributed to set up. On the other hand, when I upgraded my arm, the difference was profound. Night and day.

In its most simplest terms, the turntable spins the record. The cartridge mounted to the arm tracks the groove and converts the mechanical energy into electrical. This is where the magic begins. In order for the cartridge to do that as best as it possibly can, everything depends on the arm. The materials it is made of and how unyielding it is to vibration. The more inert, the better. This is why even the materials it is made of come into play.

Back in the day, two of the most highly acclaimed tone arms were the Alphason HR-100S and the Syrinx PU-3. When I replaced the Alphason with the Syrinx the difference (disappointment) was far greater than the improvement made by the Oracle in lieu of the Rega. Titanium vs plastic, I should have known better. But this is what happens when you read audio rags too much.

The point is, the relationship between the arm and cartridge is of far greater consequence than the table itself. If I was looking to get back into vinyl, I'd buy the best arm and cartridge I could afford and worry less about the table. Just make sure everything is set up right or it will all be for nothing.

My phantom 2, XV-1s, Koetsu Jade, Lamm LP2 has been used with identical set up parameters on my VPI HRX, TW AC3 and now Air Force One. Not only are the three different, The HRX was different when using the acrylic platter vs the Aluminum Super Platter, The TW sounded different when the Millennium mat was used carbon fiber up, reversed or not used at all. The Air Force One also different with the Duralumin upper platter or Stainless Steel. The Air Force One has the greatest dynamic range being so quiet. It is isolated so well that you can tap on the record while it is playing and not hear any thuds coming out of the loudspeaker. Sounds impossible I know, but it's true.

[jimdgoulding]

Aw, man, you cats are alright I don't care what anybody says!   

[jimdgoulding]

I thought it was a helluva good post, JG.  Your description of Belafonte at Carnegie was spot on, and why we hang on to the 12" platters.
It's not about the TTs, as many will do well.  It's about delivery of real life as close as we can get it.

BTW, what's the address of said Cabs?  I don't drink, but for your system played loud, a nice cabernet, and Harry B. I might just make an exception.   

Well, Brick, I wish I could say I have some 80's Silver Oaks but I drank em all.  My brother-in-law has a couple dozen cause I turned him on to them not to mention their unique and wonderful flavor, but he never offers to open one.  Hell with being passive, I gonna put his feet to the fire next time I'm over and I'm not waiting til Christmas neither, tho my chances would probably be better.  As I don't have one to look at, I can't be really sure if they were 80's or 70's.  Whichever one put them on the map is what. 

I gots some Chilean cabs I got turned onto in a trendy café in SF in November.  Sumbitches are pretty good, too.  They're just sitting around til the right occasion.         

[twitch54]

Thank you Neo, I have a new found respect for you.

This is what its all about for me:



In the front row is Lone Wolf, Twitch, me and Ed Cramer. These are people that I met once, but have a bond to them that I will take to my grave. This is what the AC is all about. We might dissagree now and then, but in the end, its about the music, the equipment we use to get at the music, and most importantly, our friends..........

(RMAF, I believe 2009)

Wayner, 2009 it was, great time, with a good group of guys for sure (the back two were fellow members from the Martin Logan group, Wayne and Steve)

While I'm too old to argue the analog / digital debate (I actually enjoy both), with my age comes the wisdom that knows both can be fully enjoyed and appreciated !

Dave

[jimdgoulding]

Lonewolfny.  Wish that cat would drop in and say hey.  That boy was my mentor when I first got on to AC- maybe yours, too- and I still need him from time to time.  If I didn't say, I didn't, my turntable is an old and massive Micro Seiki BL91 with a Jelco 10" arm and an original Koetsu Black MC bought new in the 80's, I think.  I had a much most recent Black Gold Line until I knocked off the stylus bout two weeks ago.  When I put the original back in it sounded slower and duller.  After about a day, the comparison faded away and I began to care less and less.  It sounds sumptuously good.  I will send off my newer one to Soundsmith soon to get the stylus replaced.  I DO miss its better articulation and spaciousness.       

[geowak]

Been trying to get through a look at all the TT's suggested here. Some are older models, they would be harder to track down and even harder still to listen to these. The VPI Classic three is starting to look like a strong choice.

[JackD201]

Been trying to get through a look at all the TT's suggested here. Some are older models, they would be harder to track down and even harder still to listen to these. The VPI Classic three is starting to look like a strong choice.

It's a strong choice even for someone with a higher budget.

*I am not connected in any way to VPI