[bacobits1]

It's fun to spend someone else's money. There is no way you have to spend 5-10k.
I would love to spend that kind of $$. Not possible.
I've been through a lot of stuff here and if you shop smart you can do it for around 2K+ easily as Wayner said.
 
Setup and the rest of the system does matter though.
I just had a guy here tell me "he has never heard anything like that in his life !"
He was not necessarily a novice.

The new Merrill table designed after the AR/Heirloom , VPI Traveler, Rega P5 and up, AR ES1, Empire's, Systemdek XXII, VPI HW19 MKIII and up, even the Junior all can be had reasonable and would be very very good. All sound different also. I never heard a Tech 1200 here so no comment on that, but I could get any one of the mentioned decks to sound superb.

Choose Cartridge and Phono carefully and you are good to go. There are tons of choices used.
Can you tell I like used? I'll take someone else's throw-a ways every time.

The disclaimer is: this is my opinion no arguments. 
The whole trick is to get the best possible sound for the least amount of money. Right?
You can get a lot of music for the remainder 3k.

The original question is not easy to answer, too many variables in the software between CD and vinyl.
Good and bad in both formats.

[Wayner]

This thread has lots of good stuff and different ideas. That is good. If you have the doe-ray-me, go for it. I'd like to have one new TT before I kick the bucket, but I find that there is no one perfect table. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Tweaking tables has become a ritual here, at my house. The Technics needs different mats, and a little damping on the tonearm. The Empire's anti-skate spring is kind of stretched, but repositioning the arm helped that problem out. My VPI Hw-19jr has the least amount of issues, tho I do have a soft mat on top of the plastic platter.

Oddly enough, the largest change to my turntables sound was getting a different power amp. I picked up a Sony TA-N55ES (110 WRMS/channel) and the world completely changed. Running one of my AVA Insight+ pres into that and powering my modded Dynaco A25XLs with the Sony is just simply unbelievable.

I have to ask myself over and over again, what the hell is in those grooves, anyway? Can there be that much detail? The answer is YES!!!!! This is what makes playing records fun, even if its a PITA to get up once in a while and flip the record (we play both sides (or all sides)) of a record here. Besides, the beer refrigerator is in the other room.

[orthobiz]

My approach would be to just buy almost any decent TT and live with it for a little while. Play around with a stylus or a mat or a support. Then buy another TT and compare. I somehow need to have two, Wayner needs to have six or more. You can upgrade, side-grade, downgrade, fool around and have fun. Buy and sell it on this forum and you'll be getting and giving good deals all around.

Paul

[thunderbrick]

So, Orthobiz, how did Dumb and Dumber work out the other night?   

Maybe they should have kept them in jail for their own good……...

[mick wolfe]

I use to have a Thorens TD320, way back in 1986. I gave it to my cousin when CDs became all the rage. Thinking about coming back to analog. Can anyone out there name a TT that made you CONVERT back to analog? I mean that really, really revealing TT that is just great? Thinking below 10K but really something between 1K to 5K.

Of course, I need to know the tonearm and cartridge that mates well with the TT.

I never left analog, but it became a LOT more interesting when I bought a Well Tempered Amadeus. The arm is included and it's a shade under 3K total. I use a Denon 103R/ Auditorium 23 SUT, but there are many good cartridge choices for this arm. If you want to skip low output MC's, consider the Dynavector 20XH for instance.

[Audiotool]

Hi Guys,

I've been into to listening to recorded music for over thirties years. Mom played opera on a simple "record player" before we went to sleep almost every night. Madam butterfly, La boheme', Pagliacci, Carmen, etc. When I was 14 I built a full stereo with an Audiovox cassette player on my ten speed bike powered by a motorcycle battery. Boz Scaggs, Boston... I was in heaven. Since then I've owned or built lots of stuff and in the last few years have owned several turntables; Systemdek, a modified B&O TX with MM2 and hardwired with Cardas. Even an old, wonderful sounding Gerard. I've owned some incredible digital from Camelot technology, MSB, Micromega, Benchmark even a great sounding DAC by Van Alstine. And lately listen to just about every format From high res 32 bit and beyond to budget vinyl and cost no object vinyl and many great sounding budget and beyond digital rigs.

The truth is for any seasoned (honest) Audiophile there is NO debate! The best "format" for playback is based on the links in the chain. You can be moved to tears by rich, detailed, expansive realism by ANY format.  I own probably 2+ terabytes of wav, flac and higher res files. Many of the 16/44 stuff sounds better than the high res. It still comes down to studio recording choices, versions, remaster quality etc. The joy of music is ALL that matters. How you get there is up to your awareness and exposure. I might play a record because I feel like it. I certainly don't play files because of convenience. I play whatever format music to have an immersive musical experience. I can still play certain well recorded cassettes (1970's 'Folgers Consort') on a 700II Nakamichi with Grados ...and it is eerie realistic. Often times you may have a certain special recording in a certain format only. The truth is more music is available in 16/44 than any other format. And luckily there are "budget" products out there to help make the most of that fact. A DAC I've heard lately for very cheap was the $600. tubed Jolida. A friend put better tubes in and is using the very high value Zentara Reference digital rca and it sounds astonishingly good. Dynamic, clear, and very dimensional and palpable, NATURAL.

So, JUST SAY NO to this artless, fruitless, tired and proven ridiculous debate and just play your records, cue up your files, put on a tape or go listen to live music in the park this summer.

We are blessed to even have hearing (many don't) with so many ways to enjoy music.

I better sign off now before I start really preaching

I hope this helps some younger audiophiles and just moves us all to keep sharing the value of properly reproduced music.


Cheers







 

[twitch54]

You know, I'm actually very familiar with that turntable, and even some with different tonearms grafted on.  No matter, you like what you like, but I'd be quite surprised if any LP playback system involving a Technics SL1200II convinced anyone with a decent CD player, much less any hires digital playback, to get interested in LPs.

again, as Wayner pointed out…….. you have not a clue…….

[Audiotool]

Actually, when I said that there is more music available on 16/44 I was obviously referring to the last thirty years.

With more and more new vinyl releases and the discovery of old, impossible to find records its necessary to have a great turntable.

[thunderbrick]

…….but I'd be quite surprised if any LP playback system involving a Technics SL1200II convinced anyone……………...to get interested in LPs.

Careful there; one of the things about this hobby is that we get surprised a lot.   

[rbbert]

again, as Wayner pointed out…….. you have not a clue…….

Yeah, whatever.  FWIW, my first "hifi" speakers were those Dynaco A25's, back in 1970, with an AR table, ADC XLM cartridge, PAS 3 preamp and Stereo 70 amp.  No, I don't miss it 

[bacobits1]

Rbbrt you are not even running a table!?

I would not think of starting an argument.

[neobop]

Yeah, whatever.  FWIW, my first "hifi" speakers were those Dynaco A25's, back in 1970, with an AR table, ADC XLM cartridge, PAS 3 preamp and Stereo 70 amp.  No, I don't miss it 

Lately, I try to avoid threads that attract trolls, iconoclasts, and those with an agenda.  Digital vs. analog seems to bring out the worst in people, and I can't say I'm immune.  With that said, I'm wondering why you're participating here Rbbert.  Is the sole purpose one-upmanship, to point out Wayner's lack of high quality equipment?   Maybe I missed it, but that seems to be your only contribution.

I wonder how Wayner's MODIFIED A25s sound.  Have you ever heard them?  Either have I.  I seem to recall his owning other speakers, maybe Paradigm and Martin Logan electrostatics? 

So what's your point Rbbert, the Technics 1200 isn't worthy?   Is that it? 

BTW, welcome to Vinyl Circle.


 Once a Stereo 70

There is one statement here that I will make. Any amount of money spent on high buck vinyl playback in the hands of the inexperienced or uneducated, will end up in shambles. Success comes from the knowledge of set up and system synergy. In other words, you simply can't buy turntable set up experience, you have to learn it. That is why my 40 year old Empire could easily trash a very expensive VPI in the hands of a novice.

This thread is a slippery slope and the outcome of buying a new (or used) table does not bring happiness alone. It must be learned............

+1

neo

[rbbert]

Rbbrt you are not even running a table!?

I would not think of starting an argument.

I played LP's until 2002, often with near SOTA gear (e.g. LP12, SME arm and Dynavector, Grado and Denon cartridges, Magnepan Unitrac arm with Shure V15V and Grado Signature) and still hear decent or better LP setups a few times a year, and that doesn't count the various SL1200II setups my son and many of his friends have (which I don't consider decent).  I haven't heard anything to make me regret giving up LP's, so actually I may have more useful opinions to contribute to this thread than many of you.

I'm with those who are looking at $6k or more (new; maybe half that used) needed to provide a reasonable alternative listening experience to someone who has and likes excellent digital playback.

[Larkston Zinaspic]

I've been dragging my feet on this but I'm pretty sure the Townsend Rock is the table that's going to bring me back to analog, just because it's so damn good. Lots of choices to be sure...but I just can't count out the Rock.

[mick wolfe]

I've been dragging my feet on this but I'm pretty sure the Townsend Rock is the table that's going to bring me back to analog, just because it's so damn good. Lots of choices to be sure...but I just can't count out the Rock.

Solid choice....no pun intended.

[Wayner]

Thank you Neo, I have a new found respect for you.

This is what its all about for me:



In the front row is Lone Wolf, Twitch, me and Ed Cramer. These are people that I met once, but have a bond to them that I will take to my grave. This is what the AC is all about. We might dissagree now and then, but in the end, its about the music, the equipment we use to get at the music, and most importantly, our friends..........

(RMAF, I believe 2009)

[rbbert]

...This is what the AC is all about. We might dissagree now and then, but in the end, its about the music, the equipment we use to get at the music, and most importantly, our friends..........

+1 

[geowak]

Thank you Neo, I have a new found respect for you.

This is what its all about for me:



In the front row is Lone Wolf, Twitch, me and Ed Cramer. These are people that I met once, but have a bond to them that I will take to my grave. This is what the AC is all about. We might dissagree now and then, but in the end, its about the music, the equipment we use to get at the music, and most importantly, our friends..........

(RMAF, I believe 2009)

Well said, indeed..... on this I could not agree more. Once again, thanks to all for all the analog tips. Please keep them coming... in an open forum with respect for all.

[Devil Doc]

I only have one beef with this thread, that somehow one needs to be a mechanical engineer to set up a turntable. Horse hockey. It's simply not that difficult, and to imply anything else is not fair to one who wants to enter the hobby.

Doc

[rbbert]

I only have one beef with this thread, that somehow one needs to be a mechanical engineer to set up a turntable. Horse hockey. It's simply not that difficult, and to imply anything else is not fair to one who wants to enter the hobby.

Doc

What do you think of Andre Jenning's article in the latest TAS?