Bryston 7B's-Am i missing out on something?

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James Tanner

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Re: Bryston 7B's-Am i missing out on something?
« Reply #20 on: 15 Sep 2008, 02:25 pm »
Many thanks for the reply.

I'm definitely way out of my technical comfort zone with this one.  I may also have been inexact with the terminology used.

Two of the sockets on the Furman are labelled "Discrete Symmetrical Power", and here's an explanation from another website of what this is.

"Discrete Symmetrically Balanced power is achieved by running the incoming AC line into a 1:1 ratio isolation transformer, with a precisely placed center tap on the transformer's output or secondary. The incoming voltage, (120 VAC on the Line terminal and 0 VAC on the Neutral and Ground) are split in perfect halves on the secondary of the transformer. The output Line terminal now has 60 VAC, and the Neutral terminal has 60 VAC, when referenced to its center tap Ground, which remains at 0 VAC. What's significant about this is that the two 60 VAC terminals are now in opposite polarity. So the symmetrical AC noise (or common mode) fields cancel. Further, this noise reduction is extraordinarily efficient and linear across a huge frequency range (bandwidth). Recording and broadcast microphones have utilized this same noise reduction principle for over 80 years."

If I'm understanding this correctly (and I may well not be), Torus are doing with 2 x 120 what they are describing here as doing with 120 split into 2 x 60.  The Torus would obviously be superior, but superficially at least it looks as if there's something of a family resemblance in what's being done....

 




Hi Andrew,

I am going to pass the explaination on to our Torus PHD designer for this. Not sure if the 60/60V in may have some restrictions as to where it can be used and if this means a 60/60 split on the output as well?

Stay tuned.

james


Hi Andrew,

Answer from Torus:

Hi James,
Torus does NOT use secondary center-tap technique to generate balanced +/- 60V output for noise reduction,as the Furman does. Torus reduces noise through its low noise technology incorporated in the design of the transformer.

Torus also take advantage of balanced INPUT voltage of +/- 120V for two purposes;
1) To deliver power at half the output current (for example if the unit is for 2400 VA, it means that the output current is 20 A at 120 V, but the input current is 10 A at 240 V),
2) Due to the input voltage being balanced at +/- 120 V, the noise is further  reduced at the input stage.
 
Thanks,
Henry Pajooman
Plitron Manufacturing Inc.
Research Engineer




AndrewA

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Re: Bryston 7B's-Am i missing out on something?
« Reply #21 on: 16 Sep 2008, 11:51 am »
Many thanks indeed for the clarification.

Andrew

95Dyna

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Re: Bryston 7B's-Am i missing out on something?
« Reply #22 on: 24 Sep 2008, 01:20 pm »
I tried several mid-priced power cords on 7B SST, ended up with stock Bryston cords.
My ears, my system, so make out of it what you can  :wink:
If you have not invested yet into good power conditioner, spend money on it rather than on power cords. Check Torus.


Sasha,

Your recommendation to buy a good power conditioner instead of new power chords is contradicted on page 1 of the 7B SST owners manual.  It states that the 7B's performance will not be enhanced by power line conditioners and that in fact they will constrict the flow of power to the amp.  "Will not" is itallicized and underscored for emphasis in the manual.

Since your post spawned a lengthly discussion regarding the matter, including James, I must now ask myself "am I missing something too"!?

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston 7B's-Am i missing out on something?
« Reply #23 on: 24 Sep 2008, 02:29 pm »
I tried several mid-priced power cords on 7B SST, ended up with stock Bryston cords.
My ears, my system, so make out of it what you can  :wink:
If you have not invested yet into good power conditioner, spend money on it rather than on power cords. Check Torus.


Sasha,

Your recommendation to buy a good power conditioner instead of new power chords is contradicted on page 1 of the 7B SST owners manual.  It states that the 7B's performance will not be enhanced by power line conditioners and that in fact they will constrict the flow of power to the amp.  "Will not" is itallicized and underscored for emphasis in the manual.

Since your post spawned a lengthly discussion regarding the matter, including James, I must now ask myself "am I missing something too"!?


Hi Dyna,

I think it is more true that Bryston has contradicted itself rather than Sasha.

It wasn't so long ago that Bryston stated in our manuals NOT to use powerline conditioners with our amplifiers. The problem was they robbed the power amplifier of much needed current under 'short-term transient' conditions.

As an amplifier company we started thinking about what would be the "ideal" condition for a power amplifier to "see" at it's input. Answer very 'high current' at very 'low impedances'.  How to do that?  A very big Isolation Transformer.

So we started doing some tests. We hooked up one of our 4B (300 watt per channel) amplifiers -- plugged it into a standard wall plug --- connected it to an 8-ohm speaker and drove the speaker at 200 watts. We found that the amplifier, over very short periods, would attempt to draw up to 48 Ampere peak. The wall plug has way too much resistance (typically 1 to 1.5 Ohms of impedance) so the amplifier was starved for current under these short-term transient conditions. With a very large Isolation Transformer inserted (soon to become the 20 Ampere Torus) designed to have very low impedance (.02 ohms) and very high current we were able to draw up to 400 Ampere peak under these very same conditions.

james



richidoo

Re: Bryston 7B's-Am i missing out on something?
« Reply #24 on: 24 Sep 2008, 04:07 pm »
The wall outlet does raise impedance and restrict current flow, but it is just the tip of the iceberg, remember you still have an outlet and IEC connection after the Torus and they do raise impedance but it is necessary of course, and with quality connectors the increase in resistance is negligible. The real benefit of a large isolation transformer is eliminating the entire high impedance circuit going back all the way to the nearest low impedance current source, which is the step down transformer on the street.

That street transformer provides low impedance power at household voltage, but in travelling along 300 feet of aluminum wire to the meter, more aluminum wire to the service panel, through breakers and screw down buss terminations, then another umpteen feet of thin copper romex with twisted wire nut connections and brass duplex terminals in shared circuits - the impedance rises a lot at each mechanical contact and high resistance conductor thereby restricting current flow. The isolation transformer allows a reset to very low impedance once again through the magnetic reservoir of the transformer core. The wall outlet can provide sustained current enough to keep the reservoir filled, but not enough to for musical peaks.

The isolation transformer supplements power transformers in components which are often undersized by designers to reduce cost.

To me this aspect of power conditioning is far more important than noise isolation or filtering which is probably the reason why most people buy an isolation transformer, thinking of it more like a power filter.  I use a large power conditioning transformer and the difference without it is night and day.
Rich

95Dyna

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Re: Bryston 7B's-Am i missing out on something?
« Reply #25 on: 24 Sep 2008, 07:29 pm »
I tried several mid-priced power cords on 7B SST, ended up with stock Bryston cords.
My ears, my system, so make out of it what you can  :wink:
If you have not invested yet into good power conditioner, spend money on it rather than on power cords. Check Torus.


Sasha,

Your recommendation to buy a good power conditioner instead of new power chords is contradicted on page 1 of the 7B SST owners manual.  It states that the 7B's performance will not be enhanced by power line conditioners and that in fact they will constrict the flow of power to the amp.  "Will not" is itallicized and underscored for emphasis in the manual.

Since your post spawned a lengthly discussion regarding the matter, including James, I must now ask myself "am I missing something too"!?


Hi Dyna,

I think it is more true that Bryston has contradicted itself rather than Sasha.

It wasn't so long ago that Bryston stated in our manuals NOT to use powerline conditioners with our amplifiers. The problem was they robbed the power amplifier of much needed current under 'short-term transient' conditions.

As an amplifier company we started thinking about what would be the "ideal" condition for a power amplifier to "see" at it's input. Answer very 'high current' at very 'low impedances'.  How to do that?  A very big Isolation Transformer.

So we started doing some tests. We hooked up one of our 4B (300 watt per channel) amplifiers -- plugged it into a standard wall plug --- connected it to an 8-ohm speaker and drove the speaker at 200 watts. We found that the amplifier, over very short periods, would attempt to draw up to 48 Ampere peak. The wall plug has way too much resistance (typically 1 to 1.5 Ohms of impedance) so the amplifier was starved for current under these short-term transient conditions. With a very large Isolation Transformer inserted (soon to become the 20 Ampere Torus) designed to have very low impedance (.02 ohms) and very high current we were able to draw up to 400 Ampere peak under these very same conditions.

james

Thanks for the clarification, James.  And my apologies to Sasha for my inaccurate identification of the contradictor!  James, not knowing what the maximum or optimal current draw that would be required by the 7B (i.e. is 400 ampere overkill?) what Torus conditioner would be recommended to avoid the current starvation you mentioned above.


James Tanner

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Re: Bryston 7B's-Am i missing out on something?
« Reply #26 on: 24 Sep 2008, 09:16 pm »
Hi,

That 400 is only on very short term transients. You want the maximum current draw for your amp.  With a 7B it is 7 amps at 8 ohms 120 volts EACH.

So an RM-15 or RM-20 would be the best choice.

james