Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus

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Sasha

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Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« on: 12 Feb 2012, 03:13 pm »
We had 6 pairs of experienced ears comparing these two products with objective to determine if Prism Sound Orpheus was capable of knocking Bryston BDA-1 out of one of listeners’ audio chain. Prism needs no introduction, it will suffice to say that Orpheus is packed with features, and quite more expensive that BDA-1, but considering what it does its price tag suddenly does not appear to be high at all. You can find info about Orpheus on the net, as well as one professional reviews where Orpheus and BDA-1 were directly compared and Orpheus was pronounced the winner http://thedspproject.com/prism-sound-orpheus-review.
The test was quite well executed, volume was properly adjusted and no one knew what DAC was playing at the time, everyone rated specific performance aspect (tonality, dynamics, transparency) for DAC1 and DAC2, not knowing which one was BDA-1 and which one was Orpheus.
The system consisted of PMC IB2S, Bryston 7B SST2, BP26, and a nuber of exceptional digital sources (sound station with Lynx using AES/EBU), number of quality players (Esoteric, etc.).
The difference was quite obvious between the two DACs, and some among us were able to easily recognize BDA-1 character after a few tracks (me being among them), yet some were deceived and convinced that DAC1 was BDA-1 while in fact it was DAC2 despite the fact they were very familiar with BDA-1 (they owned it).
I will get back to the conclusion of our session, preferences were 3 in favor of BDA-1 and 3 in favor of Orpheus.
One of the listeners that preferred Orpheus was the one that was convinced it was BDA-1.
What I heard was the following.
As said, I was able to recognize BDA-1 in a clearly blind test, it was not a mystery till the end for me. And I preferred by a large margin BDA-1.
Main reason being that Orpheus lacked low end fundamentals, what made its presentation tilted towards higher end. In some tracks it was not so obvious, for example voices you are not terribly familiar with sounded quite right on Orpheus, however when known recordings with familiar instruments came up it was clear to me that tonality on Orpheus was not right.
I believe it is this tilt that made others prefer Orpheus, it is an old trick where people are impressed by clarity (which was one of strong impressions expressed by those who preferred Orpheus) which in fact is not the result of better transparency but the described tilt.
And I believe this tilt is the result of less than optimal analog section in Orpheus, this is a trait I have seen many times in digital components that are built with less than optimal op-amps and poorer PSUs.
Next was comparison of two DACs driving amplifiers directly with volume control in digital domain (a very good volume control, no loss of resolution).
The reason for this comparison was a long time ago established observation that transparency and dynamics are increased enormously with pre-amp removed from the chain (it is absolutely an enormous gain in performance). This will of course work only if source is capable of driving amp directly (and very few are) and you have good digital volume control (very few are).
In this test the difference between BDA-1 and Orpheus became clear to everyone and there was no doubt that BDA-1 would not be dethroned in this listener’s audio system.
To get an idea how good it sounds with BDA-1 driving amps consider this, between the setup with pre-amp in the chain and Esoteric playing superb SACD recording, and pre-amp-less chain where BDA-1 drives amps and we play 16/44.1 PCM version of the same recording, the preference was clearly PCM (yes, it is so much better).

konut

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #1 on: 12 Feb 2012, 03:35 pm »
Gotta give you props for going the extra mile and making the effort to set up the system without the pre. Well done!

ted_b

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #2 on: 12 Feb 2012, 03:59 pm »

Sasha,
I appreciate you spending the time to compare these two very good DACs.  I have also had both inhouse (although not at the same time) and believe they both represent good value within their price points, the Orpheus being 2x the price.


I believe it is this tilt that made others prefer Orpheus, it is an old trick where people are impressed by clarity (which was one of strong impressions expressed by those who preferred Orpheus) which in fact is not the result of better transparency but the described tilt.


Here I disagree that this is a "trick", but simply a sonic characteristic that, by the way, 50% of your guests liked better.  It seems you are protesting a bit too much here.  :)

I would love to know what digital inputs were used.  The Orpheus (like Weiss, Metric Halo and many other prosumer predigrees) simply shines via firewire, for example.  The Bryston would be handicapped if using it's USB direct (which other comapros have tried to do).  I liken this to evaluating baseball pitchers and yet asking Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux to throw the same pitch.  Doesn't make sense if the object is to strike out the batter.  Let them throw their best pitch (each of which got the the baseball hall of fame with MUCH different pitches).

Sasha

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #3 on: 12 Feb 2012, 06:12 pm »
Hi Ted,

The 50% preference for Orpheus has melted away once we did comparison with pre-amp out of the way, and this was one of major points that made me think that Orpheus may have less than optimal analog section, weak analog section has always in my experience resulted in sound without foundation, and thus I talk about perceived tilt that initially led 50% of audience to pick Orpheus. By cutting out a low end a bit, you lower speakers’ distortion, flesh out details and get impression of detailed transparent sound at the expense of tonality. I am not saying they dialed less low end intentionally, it probably measures flat on its own, but once it starts driving a tough load it deviates from neutrality.
We used firewire with Orpheus, and we used AES/EBU with BDA-1, so no one was handicapped. I agree that USB on BDA-1 sounds terrible, as does any other DAC with such interface I tried.
What actually led to this whole exercise was the quest for exceptionally good volume control outside of digital source (PC station with Lynx) so that analog sources could be used as well via good quality AD conversion, all because removal of pre-amp (and consequently its analog volume control) results in tremendous improvements. This does not mean that BP-26 is bad, it is very good pre-amp and so far no other pre-amp was found to be more transparent, in fact some highly regarded pieces such as AR were extremely colored in comparison, but nonetheless having BP-26 in the chain is something that is hard to go back to once you experience performance without it.

ted_b

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #4 on: 12 Feb 2012, 06:23 pm »
I completely disagree that most DACs with preamp or direct-to-amp functions are better with than without.  In many many cases (all except Antelope Gold in my opinion) the preamp or "direct-to-amp" function is coupled with cheap bit-lopping digital volume controls and/or much-less-expensive analog faders than are used with great preamps.  The theory is nice, but the execution is usually piss poor (and borne out of marketing, etc).  I found this feature on 8 of the 16 DACs I have had inhouse (ranging from $2k-10k) in the last 20-24 months (Bryston included) and found all of them except Antelope to be much worse than their clean bypass mode into a very hi-end preamp.   Obviously we disagree. 

I do not hold this direct-to-amp function as part of a critical path in buying a DAC.  If it is a good implementation, then great, but it's not the major issues I listen for with a great DAC.  Thanks for the thread and the work, regardless.  :)

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #5 on: 12 Feb 2012, 06:25 pm »
THE DEMO IS EVERYTHING :thumb:

Sasha

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #6 on: 12 Feb 2012, 06:58 pm »
Hi Ted,
I do not know what you are disagreeing with, I have not said it is the case with most DACs, I have said that with well executed digital control and DAC with well executed analog section (and there are very few of them) one can achieve far better performance with pre-amp removed. And that was obvious with Orpheus, it was not capable of driving amps the same way as BDA-1, it fell apart completely with pre-amp removed. The transparency achieved with removal of pre-amp surpasses any and all changes on the front end, whatever kind of source it may be. BDA-1 was tried without pre-amp in other systems as well and the same tremendous improvement in transparency was achieved, for example I presently own ATC SCM50ASL active speakers and with BDA-1 driving integrated ATC amps directly with volume control in Steinberg WaveLab I get performance that no other DAC or player with any recording in any resolution can match with pre-amp in the chain. As simple as that. As far as my objectives go as well as objectives of the person that had both DACs for evaluation in his system, we could not care less about DACs that have weak output and are incapable of driving amps directly, exactly for the reasons described. This session once again confirmed our observations when we compared SACD playback with pre-amp in the chain and 16/44.1 PCM playback with pre-amp removed, it was day and night difference. But again, you need well executed volume control in digital domain and well executed electronics in DAC.
This is not some strange synergy that we stumbled across incidentally in a specific system, it has been confirmed over and over in many different systems.
The only component that outperformed BDA-1 so far in my experience was Wadia 581SE, but again only when driving amps directly. Yet, due to some other issues that are not relevant for this discussion I chose BDA-1 over Wadia and consequently sold Wadia.
 

ted_b

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #7 on: 12 Feb 2012, 07:37 pm »
Sasha, OK, I will aquiesce to your comments.  I'm glad the BDA-1 is working great for you direct-to-amp!

BTW, I LOVE ATC active speakers, and once thought of having a 5.1 setup with either 5 SCM50ASL's or the fronts being 100ASL's.  I owned a pair of SCM 150ASL's which were breathtaking, but frankly overwhelmed my large room.  :)  But owning them was a godsend in that it got me to meet and befriend Michael Bishop, Grammy-winning recording engineer from Telarc, and talk briefly with James Guthrie, Pink Floyd recording god.  Billy Woodman, too.  Long story, told here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99046.msg996560#msg996560

Sasha

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #8 on: 12 Feb 2012, 08:55 pm »
Hi Ted,
Do you have any experience in comparing active ATCs you owned/heard to passively driven PMC IB2 or MB2, if so, what were your impressions?

ted_b

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #9 on: 12 Feb 2012, 09:18 pm »
Hi Ted,
Do you have any experience in comparing active ATCs you owned/heard to passively driven PMC IB2 or MB2, if so, what were your impressions?

No I haven't.  I've only heard ATC's active large pro monitors, and not familiar enough with the passives of theirs or PMC's to render a comment.

Sasha

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #10 on: 13 Feb 2012, 04:22 pm »
Has anyone compared Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC to BDA-1 or Orpheus?

RupertBrown

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #11 on: 21 Sep 2012, 10:59 pm »
Hey Gena,
First of all thanks for reaching out to me via YouTube, I am always happy to chat about my tests.

Hello forum, my name is Rupert Brown I did the original BDA-1 vs Orpheus shoot out for the Orpheus review linked in the first post. This is my first time here, thanks for having me.

So I am surprised by your findings, we had 4 guys (2 studio guys and 2 hifi guys) who all preferred the Orpheus hands down on the day. Maybe the different combination of speakers / cable / room acoustics factored in.  I guess at this level it does become a matter of taste as both are fairly capable.

As a side note I think acoustics are forever being under valued, I see people arguing about +/- 2db of a piece of equipment in a room with little to no acoustic treatment where nulls of -25db are VERY common. This is not a direct comment on this test but something I feel compelled to mention and get people thinking about particularly in the Hifi community as I fell its all too often over looked / undervalued (yes this is a generalisation not aimed at this forum but based on my experience in HiFi in London) .

I cant get on board with your "tilt" comment I have actually measured the response and you dont get much flatter inside of the audible range. In your post you said "it probably measures flat on its own, but once it starts driving a tough load it deviates from neutrality." Are you saying you thing the frequency response changes with amplitude? That would seem a little strange to me and didnt show in my testing.

Im glad your testing things for yourself and people are going to have different opinions, again especially at this level and up. Let me be clear I have spent a lot of time with the Bryston and it sounds great but for me personally I dont think I'm never going to pick a BDA-1 over an Orpheus. It doesn't mean either of us are wrong we all perceive sound slightly differently so you have done the best thing by listening for yourself and not trusting some guy from the internets!

Thanks again for reaching out.

R. Daneel

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #12 on: 28 Dec 2015, 04:00 pm »
Hi!

This is an old thread but quite an interesting one. I have been reminded many times about the importance of the analogue stage within a DAC.

May I ask which digital volume control you were using?

Cheers!
Antun

mkaiser

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Re: Bryston BDA-1 vs. Prism Sound Orpheus
« Reply #13 on: 29 Dec 2015, 08:10 pm »
Once again these comparisons are useless albeit interesting and will be forever.  :thumb: