AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Vinnie Rossi => Topic started by: brh on 29 May 2015, 01:56 pm
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Alright, this isn't really a LIO question, but I like you folks so I figured I'd ask here first... Has anyone used longer runs of USB cabling in audio applications, and if so, have you experienced dropouts or the like? Not a believer in USB cables changing sound quality, but I am a believer in things going horribly wrong and having audio break up, etc. Trying to plan my system layout in a new apartment, and with the bedroom (computer) and living room (LIO) adjacent, I think it'd be practical to just run USB and not worry about wireless streaming or anything at this point. USB maxes out at about 16 feet, which I might be able to pull off, or the other route is a bit more of a concern - going active. Has anyone here used an active USB cable for audio applications?
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Corning has a good option
http://www.amazon.com/Corning-Self-Powered-Peripherals-Receptacle-AOC-ACS2CVA010M20/dp/B00JOJRF6K (http://www.amazon.com/Corning-Self-Powered-Peripherals-Receptacle-AOC-ACS2CVA010M20/dp/B00JOJRF6K)
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Corning has a good option
Thanks for that - never seen those before, pretty clever!
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Check out the thread at Computer Audiophile about the Corning optical USB cable.
You could also use a USB hub midway to help with signal integrity like a Schiit Wyrd.
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Hi brh,
I would also consider looking into the Corning - it looks like it would be a good option for you!
(but I have not tested it for compatibility... should be fine).
Vinnie
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Will be posting a review of a variety of USB cables (waiting for samples of the last 3 to arrive). I'm in pretty much the same scenario (want to use my MacBook Air from the listening chair) with cable lengths of 6 feet (minimum) to 15 feet (ideal). Like you, am looking for feasibility first, then sound quality. Note that I've been running a $6, 35 foot Monoprice optical cable from my iMac with no reliability issues and good sound quality for over a year. (I'm too old school to drop serious coin on cables.)
So far a "mildly" filtered cable suffered dropouts or just wouldn't work. A borrowed inexpensive 10 ft cable worked with the right USB port on the MacBook, but not the left. No dropout problems with super inexpensive 6 ft or 15 ft Blue Jean cable but the 10 ft Blue Jean cable intermediately works or doesn't work with different ports/settings. A 10 ft Straight Wire USB works fine. The 3 cables I'm waiting on are midstream audiophile grade. My review will be basic (again looking for feasibility first, no facilities to do double blind or instant A/B testing, and it'll just the impressions of my old ears).
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Thanks to all who responded... will be a while, but I'll be sure to follow up once I get things situated.
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Just to follow up with people, the Corning cables do not appear to want to work with LIO's DAC. Can't really say why, but this doesn't look to be a viable solution for long runs with LIO right now...
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Hi brh,
Sorry it didn't work out.
I'm wondering if a USB 2.0 extender like these would work out:
http://www.cablestogo.com/category/usb/usb-extenders-extensions/usb-active-aa-cables
These do not convert to optical. They use a repeater at the end of the cable so you can connect
to another USB cable.
How long do you need? This is rated for 39.4 feet:
http://www.cablestogo.com/product/39000/12m-usb-2.0-a-male-to-a-female-active-extension-cable-39.4ft
Reviews look good, but never tested it.
Vinnie
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While I haven't tried either product for audio purposes personally, Monoprice has Active USB extender cables and several of my vendors sell USB extender baluns which use CAT-5e or 6 for long runs. I have used a 50 foot USB extender cable to access and download video from a camcorder without issue.
If anyone needs the USB extender baluns and cannot find them from another local source I can get them for you. Just message me directly.
Matt
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There are many USB over Cat 5E products. They go to about 50 meters using the PC's USB power supply. Longer than that you need to use external supplies. We use them for instrumentation. I can't say how if they would degrade the sound. My favorite are made by a Canadian company whose name I can't remember right off. But they don't sell retail in the US anyway. They are very tough and the company really knows what they are doing technically, unlike no-name Chinese brands. Blackbox sells them under their name. www.blackbox.com
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Hi brh,
Sorry it didn't work out.
Eh, it happens! Though I'm curious why if the DAC and XMOS are powered internally... something to do with signalling voltage or the like?
I'm wondering if a USB 2.0 extender like these would work out:
http://www.cablestogo.com/category/usb/usb-extenders-extensions/usb-active-aa-cables
These do not convert to optical. They use a repeater at the end of the cable so you can connect
to another USB cable.
Yeah, active cables were my original thought with this thread, and was curious how they'd worked out for people for audio runs. May still consider this, though the electrical situation in my new location is pretty awful, and keeping my system as isolated from the grid as possible feels wise... Will keep it in mind though. Anyway, thanks for the tip!
There are many USB over Cat 5E products. They go to about 50 meters using the PC's USB power supply. Longer than that you need to use external supplies. We use them for instrumentation. I can't say how if they would degrade the sound. My favorite are made by a Canadian company whose name I can't remember right off. But they don't sell retail in the US anyway. They are very tough and the company really knows what they are doing technically, unlike no-name Chinese brands. Blackbox sells them under their name. www.blackbox.com
Interesting, I'll certainly look into that as well, though cost starts becoming an issue there... Thanks!
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My USB cable report is on file in the critic's circle. I ended up with 6 of 9 cables that worked (10 foot Blue Jean, 3 meter Straight Wire USBF, and 10 foot data cable didn't work); final results were opposite of my first impressions; the rest were reasonably close (without 40 musical samples from different artists and note taking it would have been nearly a toss up); the best two were 2 meter Voodoo Magic Bus and 3 meter Straight Wire USB with the Straight Wire winning (more bass/dynamic, good tone/detail, less enclosed/dull sounding).
But contact the Cable Company to arrange an in-home audition of multiple cables to find out what you think sounds good in your system. And pick up Blue Jean cables (2 of the 5 top finishers in my auditions were super cheap Blue Jean cables and are available up to 15 feet long).
BTW also use a $6 35 foot Monoprice optical cable from my iMac with nary a problem and no real complaints regarding sound quality.
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My USB cable report is on file in the critic's circle. […]
Thanks for the advice (and here's the link (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=135255.msg1437240#msg1437240) for others following this thread — good read), but I'm specifically concerned with runs longer than the standard/passive USB length of 5m. Also, I'm not really sold on audio quality of USB cables, and am trying to leave that (heated!) aspect out of this discussion; but with the tricks used for long cables, there are additional issues (will it work at all, will it drop out constantly) and concerns (do I have to inject my dirty mains power at one additional point?).
Have on order a 15m active cable from SIIG, which allows for a power tap at the device end, if need be. Will report back…
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Just to follow up with people, the Corning cables do not appear to want to work with LIO's DAC. Can't really say why, but this doesn't look to be a viable solution for long runs with LIO right now...
If you use a REGEN it more than likely will work.
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I don't have a Corning cable, DH Labs in my case, but the Regen works very well with the LIO DAC.
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I don't have a Corning cable, DH Labs in my case, but the Regen works very well with the LIO DAC.
Perhaps it should be built in. ;)
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If you use a REGEN it more than likely will work.
Which kind of defeats the purpose of the optical solution not requiring additional mains power… If I'm going to involve my ridiculously bad wiring here, I'm going to spend a lot less doing so! :?
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Which kind of defeats the purpose of the optical solution not requiring additional mains power… If I'm going to involve my ridiculously bad wiring here, I'm going to spend a lot less doing so! :?
The REGEN (Hub) does do something for the Corning though....and I'm not talking sonically. But good luck.
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The REGEN (Hub) does do something for the Corning though....and I'm not talking sonically. But good luck.
If you're not talking sonically, then… I'm genuinely not sure I understand. Regen should do two things, no? Inject power & clean up what's already going on in the USB signal. This would apply to a $20 active copper USB cable, or a $160 optical Corning cable. The only motivation for trying the Corning was that it seemed like the cleanest solution without tapping into mains at the receive end. My garbage outlets run the gauntlet from lacking ground to a rather weak (~10V differential) ground (for illustrative purposes only — the wiring here is poor).
Wasn't trying to be short, but I feel like if I'm going that route, the USB cable part is no longer so important… Curious to hear your insight though!
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Hi brh,
How long of a cable do you need?
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Hi brh,
How long of a cable do you need?
Theoretically? Around 9m. Realistically, I'm aiming for 15m to futureproof some rearrangements. As mentioned, I ordered an active cable from SIIG, relatively cheap, and I've used things from this company before. It has the option of powering at the device end if needed. I'll try both ways, if, by chance, I need power at the receive end… then I might poke and prod about getting the DC output module from LIO… :D
Either way, cable should be here soon, and I'll report back. USB works great until you try to do things with it that it wasn't meant to do… funny that… :lol:
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if, by chance, I need power at the receive end… then I might poke and prod about getting the DC output module from LIO… :D
Hi brh,
I believe there are USB cables with active circuitry (so you can go, say, 50 feet) and the power feed do them is the
USB buss's +5V supply and GND). So it is using the same buss power than a standard length USB cable would use.
Once it gets to the LIO, the USB power is only used to power a relay, and the relay switches on the internal LIO power for
the LIO DSD/PCM dac. So the computer USB buss power is not used, and we also galvanically isolate the data lines, as well
as buffer and re-clock the digital data (greatly minimizing jitter) that we feed out via I2S to the two dual-mono AKM dac chips.
So you should be able to find a long enough USB 2.0 spec'd cable with such active circuit, powered from the USB buss of your
computer, and it should work well. Thanks for keeping us posted!
Vinnie
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So for one last (for this leg of my journey, at least) update — This 15m active cable from SIIG (http://www.amazon.com/SIIG-Active-Repeater-15-Meters-JU-CB0311-S1/dp/B0053YLWB4/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1437438458&sr=8-4&keywords=siig+active+usb) seems to be functioning without a hitch for me. It offers the option of powering the receive end w/ an additional +5V power supply, but this has proven unnecessary for LIO. So far so good!
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So for one last (for this leg of my journey, at least) update — This 15m active cable from SIIG (http://www.amazon.com/SIIG-Active-Repeater-15-Meters-JU-CB0311-S1/dp/B0053YLWB4/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1437438458&sr=8-4&keywords=siig+active+usb) seems to be functioning without a hitch for me. It offers the option of powering the receive end w/ an additional +5V power supply, but this has proven unnecessary for LIO. So far so good!
Hi brh,
Thanks for posting this - 15 meter (approx. 50 feet) is a pretty long run of active USB cable. Glad it works well! :thumb:
Vinnie