[forky]

One surprising thing I'd like to share with the group that I found this week while experimenting with seat placement is that by moving my chair only 1' more into the room than previously (4' vs. 3') I completely got rid of a treble brightness that I'd resorted to using a Schiit Lokius tone control to tame. I don't get too many of these big changes while playing around with placement these days, and maybe it was just a function of my room and treatments, but I was floored. No need to tame the highs with the Lokius anymore; I just use it for boosting bass a bit so I don't need to use my subs.

So, if anyone is struggling with the Peerless tweeter in the M3Ss being too energetic or bright, consider the distance your listening chair is from the back wall. You, too, may be surprised.

That's good news! I know you had been struggling with that. My chair is going to be glued to the carpet (j/k) now that I found the spot - which is 5.2' off the back wall. My wife told me yesterday that I need to move the chair and vaccum underneath the chair. "No thanks, I'll risk the dust under there.".

It was the lack of treatment that was the main culprit for my system's brightness and is now MUCH improved. I think there is further improvement to go but it is no longer, or at least significantly less harshness at higher DBs (for the few albums I've heard so far since installing) which is why I'll add more treatment - slowly. I still feel that brigthness was (but some "is" left) in the uppper mids more than lower treble, alhthoufh of course there is a crossover there. Whatever Hz most electric guitars and Lane Stayley's highs are.   - but again, GREATLY improved.

Thanks for the PS audio link - will read next.

[sockpit]

I have a pair of M5 sapphires (remember them?) in basically a bedroom sized listening room. I installed 13 GIK monster traps and 244s in the room to try to control the harshness of the highs. It worked for the most part. Give those speakers (powered by an LTA Ultralinear +) a high-quality recording and it's bliss.  Feed it Rock from the 70s and 80s and you might as well forget about it. In my little room (10 by 13 by eight) the speakers are 6 feet apart and I'm only 5 feet from them. So my triangle is squished in the direction of near field listening, not elongated as others have suggested.  I think that's because where the bass and low mids are good and rich is simply dependent upon the room, and perhaps being closer actually means that the tweeters are directing energy past me instead of right at me.

By the way, Clayton recommended bass traps when I complained of harshness. Most are full range. Everything I've read (and GIK confirmed it) that it's hard to overtreat a small room like mine.  Cheers.

[Mr. Big]

I have a pair of M5 sapphires (remember them?) in basically a bedroom sized listening room. I installed 13 GIK monster traps and 244s in the room to try to control the harshness of the highs. It worked for the most part. Give those speakers (powered by an LTA Ultralinear +) a high-quality recording and it's bliss.  Feed it Rock from the 70s and 80s and you might as well forget about it. In my little room (10 by 13 by eight) the speakers are 6 feet apart and I'm only 5 feet from them. So my triangle is squished in the direction of near field listening, not elongated as others have suggested.  I think that's because where the bass and low mids are good and rich is simply dependent upon the room, and perhaps being closer actually means that the tweeters are directing energy past me instead of right at me.

By the way, Clayton recommended bass traps when I complained of harshness. Most are full range. Everything I've read (and GIK confirmed it) that it's hard to overtreat a small room like mine.  Cheers.

Bass traps are a given in any room or speaker design.

[Early B.]

Bass traps are a given in any room or speaker design.

There are no absolutes in audio. My friend has a lousy room. He added bass traps, etc. which helped a lot, but once he got open baffle speakers, the bass traps weren't needed anymore. I'm not suggesting that bass traps are unnecessary for all OB speaker setups, but based on my own ears, my friend's bass traps rightfully ended up in the trash heap. 

[Tangram]

Even though I have a dedicated listening room, there isn't room in the front corners to put bass traps. Go figure. And I paid dearly for this with a series of ported box speakers that got boomy even at pretty low SPLs. Then I tried Maggies and the boom was gone. This led me to research dipole speakers and realize that open baffle bass is more room friendly. My Spatials provide incredible bass in my room, note-perfect, with no boom at all. Yet many audiophiles don't consider open baffles because they "don't have any bass." Also go figure.

[catluck]

Agree with Early B's and Tangram's comments re: bass traps.  Using Sapphire M3's  in a room 17x19x9, I placed a bass trap in the front right corner (only one corner because the room is off-set and the other corner isn't.... it's a hallway).  After living with the trap for 3 weeks I couldn't discern any difference in bass quality.  I consider the bass presentation, without the trap, superb so I'm forced to conclude speaker type/room geometry determine bass trap utility.

[Wayner]

Room corners are natural amplifiers (up to 6db of gain per surface) and in an asymmetrical room, can goof up the usual omni-directionality of low bass. However, a single sub in one front corner can produce some awesome omni-directional bass when implemented correctly. Symmetrical rooms are hard to come by.

[jnschneyer]

Agree with Early B's and Tangram's comments re: bass traps.  Using Sapphire M3's  in a room 17x19x9, I placed a bass trap in the front right corner (only one corner because the room is off-set and the other corner isn't.... it's a hallway).  After living with the trap for 3 weeks I couldn't discern any difference in bass quality.  I consider the bass presentation, without the trap, superb so I'm forced to conclude speaker type/room geometry determine bass trap utility.

This is in line with what I was proposing in my earlier post, that, if gear is room dependent and will perform differently in different rooms, then it stands to reason that acoustic treatment is also room dependent and will be more or less efficacious depending on the room.

[forky]

Also agree. Someday I'll take some measurements but I feel very, very little base in the front corners as all of the bass is towards the back of the room. Which I admit I really like  but the sweet spot for the speakers to disappear are about 5' in the room - but the bass feels and sounds great there also.

My GIK specialist didn't "recognize" the difference between open baffle and closed for the front corners but my ASC rep did. I've quoted this a few times (in "my" bass traps for open baffle" thread) but for anyone who missed it, "Aha! Open baffle. I thought that might be the case as they tend to load up the bass in a room differently than a standard sealed bass box does. They're better in some ways because they don't tend to ignite side to side and ceiling to floor reverb, which can result in a clearer more detailed mid-bass. I listened to a pair of Linkwitz enspired open baffles at the Pacific Audiofest this summer and was amazed at how the corners didn't load up with bass in the usual manner. They sounded surprisingly natural and balanced almost anywhere in the room - although I didn't try the back wall."

As usual, YMMV 

I still may buy some tube traps for the corners but will likely put some plants there for now. The room needs some color anyway.

[forky]

Hey forky I wanted to mention and remind myself that you should consider settling times. I've moved things around it the past and made the decision within the first hour that it wouldn't work/no improvement. I say give hours? maybe even a couple days. One other thing is that I know my system sounds fine from the get go, but really doesn't sound it's best till the amp has been running a least 3+ hours. Just food for thought.

Hi Dave,

So I finally got to listen to my speakers again for a few hours on Saturday. Nothing changed and is still as perfect as I can imagine it ever being - except (!) I still have brightness on some tracks. I still (!) need to measure my room but when I yell "echo", there is still some obvious reverberation. Not nearly as much as there was but still a little. I'm going to measure but will probably need another set of 242s from GIK and more of the planks from ASC on the rear wall. I bought plants for the front corners which probably don't to a lot - but some and look nice. I still haven't ruled bass traps - whether in or out but may just put some 242s on those walls and keep the plant there.

****I had a neighbor over to listen on Sat and he text me this about an hour after he got back home, "Man, I can't thank you enough for that crazy awesome musical experience...it honestly blew me away."

I played about a dozen demo tracks and finished up w/ side 2 of Abby Rd, 1st UK pressing. It was one of the most emotional experiences I've had with music - I didn't cry but - it is just hard to explain - it was like witnessing /seeing something so beautiful it is breathtaking but instead is auditory instead of sight.

Then, last night I'm (re) reading Get Better Sound and read this (again) on page 56, "However, for informed music loving audiophiles, the real issue is whether or not they are carried along by the music, in such a way that - even the next day- they are still overwhelmed inwardly by the emontional power of the music /performance." This sums it up pretty well - I kept on thinking about this yesterday and into today which is why I'm posting this.

I know most everyone here as their speakers set up correctly but I started this thread for those who do not but may think they sound very good. I kept reading over and over and over about speaker placement and acoustic treatment and then finally took the time to do it.

Also, a "shout out" to Mr. Big for keeping me in the game w/ M3s. Everytime I would consider buying a different speaker I would go back and read old threads here and his posts writing about how good these speakers really are, are part of the reason I stayed w/ the M3s and didn't give up (that and my wife would kill me).

All that said, I do want to get to the bottom of this brightness issue but I'm also confident more treatment is in order and will be beneficial. But 90%+ of  my records don't have any issues and the 10%-ish which do are only when the DBs are >83-85 DB.

[Mr. Big]

Hi Dave,

So I finally got to listen to my speakers again for a few hours on Saturday. Nothing changed and is still as perfect as I can imagine it ever being - except (!) I still have the brightness on some tracks. I still (!) need to measure my room but when I yell "echo", there is still some obvious reverberation. Not nearly as much as there was but still a little. I'm going to measure but will probably need another set of 242s from GIK and more of the planks from ASC on the rear wall. I bought plants for the front corners, which probably don'tdoo a lot, but some look nice. I still haven't ruled bass traps - whether in or out but may just put some 242s on those walls and keep the plant there.

****I had a neighbor over to listen on Sat and he text me this about an hour after he got back home, "Man, I can't thank you enough for that crazy awesome musical experience...it honestly blew me away."

I played about a dozen demo tracks and finished up w/ side 2 of Abby Rd, 1st UK pressing. It was one of the most emotional experiences I've had with music - I didn't cry but - it is just hard to explain - it was like witnessing /seeing something so beautiful it is breathtaking but instead is auditory instead of sight.

Then, last night I () reading Get Better Sound and read this (again) on page 56, "However, for informed music-loving audiophiles, the real issue is whether or not they are carried along by the music, in such a way that - even the next day- they are still overwhelmed inwardly by the emotional power of the music /performance." This sums it up pretty well - I kept on thinking about this yesterday and into today which is why I'm posting this.

I know almost everyone here has their speakers set up correctly, but I started this thread for those who do not but may think they sound very good. I kept reading over and over and over about speaker placement and acoustic treatment and then finally took the time to do it.

Also, a "shout out" to Mr. Big for keeping me in the game w/ M3s. Every time I would consider buying a different speaker I would go back and read old threads here and his posts writing about how good these speakers are, are part of the reason I stayed w/ the M3s and didn't give up (that and my wife would kill me).

All that said, I do want to get to the bottom of this brightness issue but I'm also confident more treatment is in order and will be beneficial. But 90%+ of my records don't have any issues and the 10%-ish which do are only when the DBs are >83-85 DB.

The sad truth is we will never have all our recordings sounding good, no matter the speaker if 90% rock then you reached the mountain top. The other 10% are what they are. I hear music that sounds so good, others so warm like the tube gear they were recorded on, then recordings where you would say where the bass go, why are the highs so sharp and hard, you would never think you were listening to the same speaker as prior recordings that sounded so good and rich. If your speakers sound bright all the time that is another issue, and I also say look at your room 1st before you throw out the speakers. Cables are also important, power cords I save, and I can pull different ones out to check out their impact on a new piece of gear, sometimes a new synergy is formed. Audio is a moving target, so you have to work with your system, think outside the box, and try to keep it simple. Start with your room acoustics 1st because gear buying will not improve a poor listening space. Glad you hung in.

[forky]

Thanks - yes, these speakers and really none of my componants are going anywhere for a long time. As mentioned will only work on room treatment although I eventually want to try a PSM 156.

I like the "you've reached the top of the mountain" but I'm not giving up on the other 10% yet. I still try to understand logically why this *only* happens after 83 DB and brightness doesn't happen in my headphones at higher levels. To me that says either the room or speakers but of course the pressing and/or recording has something to do with it since only a problem with some of them. I've beaten this to death here though  and am convinced that more treatment will help since I can still hear an echo, even if more faint. If not I'll just listen to those 10% at reasonable volumes.

Otherwise the system is perfect to my ears - but this is on better pressings/recordings of course. Which is why I've spent a bunch of time and money going after them.

[Tyson]

The worst place in a room for echo is the corners, because they act as gathering points that re-reflect acoustic energy in harsh and unpleasant ways.  Putting in bass traps will go a long way to dealing with the last little bit of slap echo you have.

[forky]

The worst place in a room for echo is the corners, because they act as gathering points that re-reflect acoustic energy in harsh and unpleasant ways.  Putting in bass traps will go a long way to dealing with the last little bit of slap echo you have.

Thanks Tyson. Question - if I have little bass in the corners, wouldn't it be better to get panels (or find a trap) that absorbs higer frequencies for the corners? I think I'm out of the "greenie" zone but still learning about lots of stuff. I'm guessing measurements would help but thinking the slap echo (aha! a term for this) would be better controlled at midrange and higher frequencies?

[Mr. Big]

Thanks - yes, these speakers and really none of my componants are going anywhere for a long time. As mentioned will only work on room treatment although I eventually want to try a PSM 156.

I like the "you've reached the top of the mountain" but I'm not giving up on the other 10% yet. I still try to understand logically why this *only* happens after 83 DB and brightness doesn't happen in my headphones at higher levels. To me that says either the room or speakers but of course the pressing and/or recording has something to do with it since only a problem with some of them. I've beaten this to death here though  and am convinced that more treatment will help since I can still hear an echo, even if more faint. If not I'll just listen to those 10% at reasonable volumes.

Otherwise the system is perfect to my ears - but this is on better pressings/recordings of course. Which is why I've spent a bunch of time and money going after them.

In-room and headphones are night and day different. Never the two shall meet. You cannot compare an open room to an enclosed environment like when your ears are cupped, and speakers are right in your ear. I love headphone "sound" it is very intimate, and you are right in your own head like you're in a closed-in studio. When I take them off, I lose that, but I gain an openness and live feel and, in the room, feeling. If you're trying to match the sound in headphones in your head to your system that will never be possible. Now if you toe in more and listen close to the speakers you can capture some of that. I once move my speaker to where I sit and put them facing each side of my head left and right, it was a gas, I was right in the music with sound in front of me and behind me, Beatles White Album was a trip, to say the least, but who listens to that way, we like to have the sound in front of us like a stage, but for fun sit between the speakers sound time and turn them in towards each side of your head and you will be surprised, no room affect the impossible pure sound at each ear and your brain will do the rest just like headphones.

[forky]

In-room and headphones are night and day different. Never the two shall meet. You cannot compare an open room to an enclosed environment like when your ears are cupped, and speakers are right in your ear. I love headphone "sound" it is very intimate, and you are right in your own head like you're in a closed-in studio. When I take them off, I lose that, but I gain an openness and live feel and, in the room, feeling. If you're trying to match the sound in headphones in your head to your system that will never be possible. Now if you toe in more and listen close to the speakers you can capture some of that. I once move my speaker to where I sit and put them facing each side of my head left and right, it was a gas, I was right in the music with sound in front of me and behind me, Beatles White Album was a trip, to say the least, but who listens to that way, we like to have the sound in front of us like a stage, but for fun sit between the speakers sound time and turn them in towards each side of your head and you will be surprised, no room affect the impossible pure sound at each ear and your brain will do the rest just like headphones.

I was only comparing brightness. I'm aware of the major differences - the HP have more detail but no contest for soundstage going to the M3s, etc. and why I prefer to listen to them. I don't get the "religous experience" from the HPs - that's for sure.

My point was only that I don't have brightness in headphones at loud (I didn't get too crazy but they were plenty loud) on the same record that I did get brightness w/ the M3s-- but only when over 83 db.

So it is at least partially the recording  since only 5-10% of my records but .........the brightness only happens when the volume is above 83-85 db and I don't get that brightness in the HPs. Which to me means that it is either the room (which I think is the case) or the speakers (still possible) for those records. Or is my logic flawed? Thanks.

[forky]

To add to that - even if you take the HP out of the equation, why are these recordings only an issue as volume increases a certain level? 

Also and somewhat related, is brightness distortion? In some cases I'm sure it is and others just sound .........BRIGHT and even painful to my ears, so the volume goes right back down.

[lazbisme]

To add to that - even if you take the HP out of the equation, why are these recordings only an issue as volume increases a certain level?

Also and somewhat related, is brightness distortion? In some cases I'm sure it is and others just sound .........BRIGHT and even painful to my ears, so the volume goes right back down.

Just my opinion, but I think there is "digital distortion" in the front end of systems that, when amplified past a certain point, makes itself known by influencing the sound in a very negative way. Don't know if it is jitter or other noise inherent in digital processing or picked up by the cables or................?

[Mr. Big]

As you turn the volume up on bad recordings, the mediocre sound just increases, I don't care if it is Vinyl, CD, or streaming. Many recordings are never mixed or made for the audiophile market, we are a spec in sales, they make recordings for the masses and how they listen to music, and 99.9% is not for a good or for sure a high-end system. Phones, Buds, Radio, or cable music channels are how most listen to music.  My family and outer family members are about 125 now, including some doctors, lawyers, teachers, cops, firemen, programmers, etc. None have an audio system as much as my one power cord costs. Rarely is music more than background is it at home, at a party, or summertime outside. XM/Sirus is as good as it gets. Smile! 

[whydontumarryit]

To add to that - even if you take the HP out of the equation, why are these recordings only an issue as volume increases a certain level? 

Also and somewhat related, is brightness distortion? In some cases I'm sure it is and others just sound .........BRIGHT and even painful to my ears, so the volume goes right back down.

This is an online sinewave generator, https://onlinetonegenerator.com/frequency-sweep-generator.html, you can use to test for resonances/distortion from your speakers. Just to rule that out first thing.