Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?

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forky

Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #60 on: 14 Feb 2022, 09:47 pm »
At a certain point the room overloads and causes unpleasant distortion like this.  IME, a quiet room is always better than a lively room, if you want to listen loud.

This is what I think is happening.

Re: db- I like around 85-87 and 90 max but peaks will hit 95 occasionally- rarely any higher . I don’t listen to much classical (a little) so usually don’t have as large of peaks (usually). For horns I’m thinking Bloody Well Right - I’ll check it out next time but probably when the horns come in about 88-90.

Mr. Big

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Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #61 on: 15 Feb 2022, 01:46 pm »
At a certain point the room overloads and causes unpleasant distortion like this.  IME, a quiet room is always better than a lively room, if you want to listen loud.

Any time you overload a room from playing your system too loud you will suffer for it. Peter Walker made sense when he said every recording has an ideal loudness level after you pass that the quality of playback will suffer. Look at the size of your room, its acoustics, and use your system in that room so it sounds its best, even a rock concert in a large hall sound like crap once they go into distortion levels of loud playing. I saw Clapton once and it was so loud that it became an unbearable, piercing sound, and his guitar was tearing your head off we left and stood outside the arena and listened. My ears rang for 2 days. So that was live and it sucked, it was unlistenable. So at the home, you can have the same issues, the sound is bouncing all around your rooms off the walls and ceiling and doubling up along the way. 

abomwell

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Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #62 on: 15 Feb 2022, 02:13 pm »
At a certain loudness level your ears go into nonlinear distortion. If you have ever put your ear close to orchestra bells and strike a bar loudly your ear will distort like crazy. The bar hasn't distorted, it's the ear. The same thing can happen in a room with an audio system played at too loud a level.

viggen

Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #63 on: 15 Feb 2022, 06:19 pm »
My suggestion is to do nothing until after you move. 

I think your speakers are too big for your concrete basement.

forky

Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #64 on: 16 Feb 2022, 09:55 pm »
My suggestion is to do nothing until after you move. 

My wife agrees with you!

Well....I had about an hour today to listen. I added some deflection behind my speakers and some absorption at first reflections. It really isn't a lot but it is enough as it helped out a lot (!). The room still needs some help and I still have some absorption to add but I listened to a few of the "problem" records and what I installed really did help. I'd say it was a 50% improvement.

I may still buy an EQ anyway for these few. Really I'd like more bass on some, but not all recordings. That said I'm still working on speaker placement.

Thanks All! Headed in the right direction. I don't think I'll have 400 hours on my speakers until 2027 though.

Wayner

Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #65 on: 16 Feb 2022, 10:35 pm »
Either raise the tweeter level or tip the speakers on the rear a little. HF drivers tend to beam their stuff and it you aim that at your ears, that is what you get.

sockpit

Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #66 on: 17 Feb 2022, 11:49 pm »
Sockpit, one item to consider is going up the chain with the Sonore products.  When I upgraded from microrendu to ultrarendu, I found ultrarendu much less "thin" and bright sounding than the microrendu.  Much more relaxed sound, more detail and dimensional, and less thin/bright.  Why?  Ultrarendu has much better power regulation.

Also, not sure what power supply you're using with the microrendu, but better quality power supplies definitely bring improvements.  And even more so when it comes to Ultrarendu or Opticalrendu.  In fact, upgrades on the endpoint, server, and network side of things can yield large dividends in taming brightness and digititus in my experience. 

Just something to consider.


Thanks for this. I imagine you are right. I was an early mRendu adopter, upgraded to 1.4, etc. I pair it with an Uptone LPS 1.2.  They have worked well for me.  I plan to use them till they fry and die.  My LPS 1.0 didn't last more than a couple years - disappointing.  I did once own an Uptone JS2, which I kinda of wish I hadn't sold. But the small LPS 1 sounded better and I needed $ for other upgrades.

I'll eventually be looking for new renderer/streamer solutions and Sonore opticalrendu will definitely be on my list.  But so will other solutions that are rock-solid and last a long time. Anyway I appreciate your pointing out another possible culprit. Power supplies matter far more than cables, so do well-informed room treatments.  GIK helped me put 13 panels in a tiny room. I suspect that the OP's basement makes mincemeat of anything thrown at it.  I'd run the speakers in, but listen on headphones until I moved into the new place . . .

abomwell

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Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #67 on: 20 Feb 2022, 05:16 pm »
You might want to take  a look at this excellent post by Robert E Greene (of TAS) from his forum, below:

"It looks to me as though we need a bit of review
on the whole subject of EQ.  Of course, I am all for
using it. The failure to do so has held back audio a lot. But
as this failure ends, and it is ending--EQ devices are proliferating
enormously-- one needs to give some serious thought
to what one can do with it and what one ought to do with it.

There are really two issues, or more precisely a continuum
between two poles.  One is broad-band balance,  The other
is micro-detail, errors associated to narrow band effects, high
Q resonances in particular, Both things are important. But
they are quite different.

Broad-band shifts in frequency response are highly audible.
They are also easy to fix with EQ.  Here, agreement is
wide-spread among audio pros. People in the pro world
take it for granted that one can deal with broad imbalances
without doing any damage otherwise.  This is what the Schitt
devices do , and the Cello devices before , and what
"tone controls" in general do.  Such things need to be done
carefully, but they are not all that hard to do. Everyone
takes this for granted that is thinking straight. After all,
your speakers contain such EQ at speaker level , where
it is harder to do than at lower levels. I think one can take
as given that some sort of smooth correction of broad band imbalances
is a  good thing to do.
One really convenient way to do this is 1/3 octave slider EQ devices
or their digital analogues. The choice of 1/3 octave has to do
with the critical band width of the ear. In practice it is detailed
enough to smooth out broad band effects and not so narrow
as to (used within reason) make for solutions worse than the problem.
Even broader band devices like the Schitt EQs are quicker
and easy to adjust , to the point where one can adjust them
recording by recording.  Very useful. And one gets to where
one can do it fast and easily to good effect.

In another category entirely are the higher Q (narrower band)
effects, arising for example from resonances in speakers.
These are harder to deal with. Ideally, they would not be there.
In principle they can be dealt with --all linear effects can be dealt
with by DSP. But in practice it is good if they are simply not there,
are not present in the speaker to begin with. Designers may
want to use DSP to kill resonances in their speakers but this
is a little tough for consumers. In outrageous cases., one can
help things, es ofpecially with parametric EQ, whether digital or analog.

But some caveats are needed.  One can make a real mess of things
by doing a lot of narrow band EQ attempting to smooth things out..
And automated systems for this often do not work at all well, either--
they look good sometimes in certain types of measurements
 if one measures superficially but the actual
sonic effect is highly dubious.
 
And crazy ideas arise. One of them is the idea of bands with abrupt cutoffs.
This is almost sure to be a  disaster. 

The idea of what should happen is that one should get a
resonance free system , whether by nature and design or
by designer-done DSP (eg in digital speakers) and then
work with the broad band tonal balance matters with comparatively
 low Q corrections.

The one area where somewhat abrupt things need to happen
is in the bass and low mids, where the room is knocking things
around a good bit.  Here is the one region where one really
needs to get in there  and "give em hell".   Automatic systems
to do this can work well. But again one should keep in mind
that  you do not really need to get things micro-corrected
and indeed are probably better off not to do it. 

As EQ becomes acceptable again, people are getting a little
crazy about trying to correct spatially unstable, micro variations
which are not really correctable.  This EQ stuff can be made to
work, but one has to think.  First stage is to get the system itself,
the speaker in the room, to work well. And then fix up the borad band'
balance as needed.

Almost all systems need some fixing up. But one has to
think about what is seriously audible, what is not and what
damage one can do trying to fix things that would be better
left alone.   And don't worry about equipment choices until
you have decided what you are trying to do. Audiophile
tend to reduce problems to the question of what equipment
they should buy,  In this EQ world, the first question is what do I want to
do, Electronic devices tend to work well-- but you have to
think first about what device addresses the issue you want to address.

REG

--
Robert E Greene
_._,_._,_
_._,_._,_

rollo

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Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #68 on: 20 Feb 2022, 05:59 pm »
  The source may be the issue. Recordings as well. You will need more time on cables and other gear. Give it time. Find a respected well recording medium. If streaming stream Blue Coast recordings They are superb. If LP or CD find a well recorded one.  If that not to your liking probably break in.

charles

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #69 on: 24 Feb 2022, 05:31 am »

Thanks for this. I imagine you are right. I was an early mRendu adopter, upgraded to 1.4, etc. I pair it with an Uptone LPS 1.2.  They have worked well for me.  I plan to use them till they fry and die.  My LPS 1.0 didn't last more than a couple years - disappointing.  I did once own an Uptone JS2, which I kinda of wish I hadn't sold. But the small LPS 1 sounded better and I needed $ for other upgrades.

I'll eventually be looking for new renderer/streamer solutions and Sonore opticalrendu will definitely be on my list.  But so will other solutions that are rock-solid and last a long time. Anyway I appreciate your pointing out another possible culprit. Power supplies matter far more than cables, so do well-informed room treatments.  GIK helped me put 13 panels in a tiny room. I suspect that the OP's basement makes mincemeat of anything thrown at it.  I'd run the speakers in, but listen on headphones until I moved into the new place . . .
Check out the SOtM sMS-200 Neo or the SOtM sMS-200 Ultra Neo and definitely consider their power supply.  I have the sMS-200 and the SOtM power supply for my 2nd system and it made a big improvement!  No network issues and it has been very reliable.  I have the Lumin U1 Mini in my main system with my Spatial Audio X5s.  It has worked flawlessly as well and sounds smoother than the SOtM IMO.  The native Lumin app is not as nice as the Roon music player app, but you have the option to use it as a Roon endpoint or use the Lumin app which definitely sounds better than using it as a Roon endpoint.  I had the Sonore opticalRendu and I kept having music dropouts and that bad boy ran hot.  I ended up returning the opticalRendu right at the end of my 30 day return window.  It sounded nice, but it didn't work out for me. I'm very happy with what I have now.

abomwell

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forky

Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #71 on: 15 Mar 2022, 07:14 pm »
Been swamped at work and life the past few weeks and haven't listened much. However my wife had to leave for a haircut  :green: today and I was able to listen for about 30 mins or so. I think I posted on this but what little treatment I did really did help quite a bit but the problem recordings are still problems. :) Just less so. And yes they are probably the recordings themselves but from what I gather they are good recordings  - but my room still has a way to go.

But - since we are probably moving in 5-6 months I gave up on doing much more treatment.

I did order a Loki a few weeks ago and just plugged that in for the first time listening to Pearl Jam Vs. I had been reluctant because I just spend a zillion dollars on LessLoss innerconnects and power cables and now I'm introducing something which needs an interrconnect (so used one of my DH Labs) and not too confident about what noise it is introducing - but maybe none.

I enjoyed trying different settings but couldn't get it quite right. I was in a hurry (as usual) so when I have more time I'll give it a shot. I guess this post is pretty pointless then but since I wrote it out I'm going to click Post.  :lol:

abomwell

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Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #72 on: 15 Mar 2022, 09:35 pm »
It sounds like the Loki is perfect for your immediate needs and according to Robert E Greene's review the benefits far outweigh any loss you may incur by adding another pair of interconnects into the path.

Mr. Big

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Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #73 on: 15 Mar 2022, 11:47 pm »
Hello All,

I'm still having issues with heavy guitar / hard rock as well as some other recordings such as Janice Joplin's 1-step which admittedly has some reviews on discogs that complain about brightness - some just as many don't. System is fine with "regular" rock like Pink Floyd, FMac, Beatles, etc. as well as jazz and what little classical I listen to. it is even fine with Rage's (RATM) debut album (which is one of my best sounding records) since it was recorded extremely well and is more than not still a "cleaner" sound than say, Smashing Pumpkins, Dirt (AIC), most TOOL (Undertow is actually great but Aenmia is rough). The "cleaner" acoustic tracks on AIC's self titled album (3 legged dog which is also an amazing sounding record) sound great but when the hard electric guitars come in with any distortion - is very harsh and separation goes out the door. Everything collides in the upper mids and low treble (where the crossover is for the M3 tweeter?).

My system:
Sapphire M3s with about 100 hours above 70 db (probably 200 hours at lower volume) but the tweeters only have around 55 hours above 70 db (probably over 120 at lower db) as I had a tweeter issue in early Dec. Are the issues I mentioned above sound like more speaker breakin will help? I have read a few complaints on Audiogon about M3s being too bright but who knows the back story (amp, hours, room acoustics, cables)

Int amp is a Primaluna Evo 300 with about 200-ish hours. Kt-150s probably have around 175 hours and the Radiotechniques in the front preamp position probaly have around 150 hours. Mazdas on the sides around 175 hours. I have also read that Primaluna can be bright  (?).

Cables are now (about 75 hours) almost all LessLoss (copper) except a DL Labs silver power cord to the TT and speaker wires are Analyis Plus, Oval 9 black mesh (thank you Mr. Big) with about 200 hours.

TT is VPI prime Signature with Hana red cart (with about 125 hours).

Phonostage is a Modwright 9.0x and I changed one set of the fuses to Amperex (but really couldn't tell the difference).

Room is carpet over a concrete floor (basement) with a rug on top of that in the 7' in front of the speakers. Ceiling is a cheap drop celing w/ that cardboard like panels and a few fluorescent lights. Nothing on the walls except curtains in front 1 window (which is behind 1 speaker but again w/ curtain) and glass door. Only drywall is behind the right speaker but I put the (semi large) dog bed directly behind it which did nothing.

Speakers are 30" from the front wall (I lost too much bass at 36" but still playing with this). The rear wall is about 17' back and side walls are difficult to describe since the room is an offset T.

Initial thoughts?  I know the speaker needs to break in more but they have some time on them. I'm wondering more about the amp than anything but called Upscale and they said to look elsewhere (of course). One guy on Audiogon upgraded his caps which said really helped the amp. I can put some $ into acoustics but we are moving next year so don't want to put a bunch of $ into a room that is changing next year. Can do some though.

Thanks

If some rock recordings sound great then the others do not and sound bright, well that tells it is the recordings. Garbage in, garbage out, the better the speakers the more you will notice bad recordings, like they say don't blame the messenger...LOL! Looking at your room acoustics I say is only adding to it. Keep in mind Janice and others were mixed for the FM radio and AM. Never in 1000 years mixed for an audiophile system or even a decent system, car radio was king to drive sales. 

Daryl Zero

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Re: Taming Brightness - break in? amp? acoutics?
« Reply #74 on: 16 Mar 2022, 03:41 am »
If some rock recordings sound great then the others do not and sound bright, well that tells it is the recordings. Garbage in, garbage out, the better the speakers the more you will notice bad recordings, like they say don't blame the messenger...LOL! Looking at your room acoustics I say is only adding to it. Keep in mind Janice and others were mixed for the FM radio and AM. Never in 1000 years mixed for an audiophile system or even a decent system, car radio was king to drive sales.

Completely agree. The sound of well recorded music is so much better than poorly recorded stuff no matter how much we love that thrown together stuff. As Steve Guttenberg once said about a band I liked but was poorly recorded, "You can't put a shine on a turd."