REW is so depressing!

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Tangram

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #20 on: 9 Jan 2022, 05:30 pm »
With that 40Hz peak, the lower notes on an upright bass should be quite forward in the presentation. Maybe you like that. For me, once I heard it I couldn’t unhear it.

radarnyc

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #21 on: 9 Jan 2022, 05:48 pm »
Agreed on listening of course. I set up my room by ear first then I measure and experiment with positioning and room treatments. 

Why do i measure? Because positioning and room treatments make a big difference and measuring helps verify what I hear. Not once have I made a change that measured better but sounded worse.
How to measure?

1. Speaker placement - move the speakers closer/farther away from the side walls and front walls. Measure after each move without making any other changes.
2. Move your listening position (microphone). Measure with each move.
3. Adjust the gain on the subs. You have the bump @40 --- for sure turn those down at 1/2 notch intervals and measure each time without changing anything else
4. Adjust toe-in and measure without changing anything else
Then make decisions on room treatments and do some additional measurements and adjustments (room treatments, speakers, listening position)

I spent about 20 hours doing this with my X3s and then never did it again. I just listen now. I still plan on doing some measurements and adjustments with my X5s.

I wouldn't touch DSP until you've worked out positioning and room treatments.

jtwrace

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #22 on: 9 Jan 2022, 05:57 pm »

I'm going to try again tomorrow but run REW through my preamp so I can use ASIO4ALL and test all my speakers.  If my speakers fail again tomorrow, I'm likely to go the DSP route (Audiolense XO).

Arghhhhh.

Marcus


Well, if you go that route, I can promise you that you will get stellar results.  The thing to do would be to bypass the crossover and do it all in the digital domain to take full advantage of the filter creation.  Passive parts are totally unnecessary and no need to chase them and the perceived quality changes.  Put the money into science and be done with it. 


Here are my REW measurements post FIR Filter from Audiolense. 


 


 


W10 i7 NUC > Roon (Audiolense Filter) > Motu UlatraLite mk5 > (2) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference +4 subs

Saturn94

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #23 on: 9 Jan 2022, 06:11 pm »
If you love your sound, then why bother measuring?

Don P.

This!!!  :thumb:


jtwrace

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #24 on: 9 Jan 2022, 06:16 pm »
If you love your sound, then why bother measuring?

Don P.
Uh, because it will sound better the better it measures  If you don't know what it sounds like when it measures well, then you really have no clue what it's capable of. 

dpatters

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #25 on: 9 Jan 2022, 06:35 pm »
Uh, because it will sound better the better it measures  If you don't know what it sounds like when it measures well, then you really have no clue what it's capable of. 
I respectfully disagree. I’ve been in this hobby for over four decades. I tune my systems by my ear. I’ve heard many audio systems in my day and I certainly am not clueless.

Don P.

geerock

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #26 on: 9 Jan 2022, 06:59 pm »
I respectfully disagree. I’ve been in this hobby for over four decades. I tune my systems by my ear. I’ve heard many audio systems in my day and I certainly am not clueless.

Don P.

Don P.
Agree.  The best measuring devices we have are located on either side of our head.  People get too involved analyzing sound instead of the all around aural and emotional experience of enjoying music.

abomwell

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #27 on: 9 Jan 2022, 07:19 pm »
There's a lot of truth in what you say. Measuring is one thing, know how to interpret the results is quite another :). Our hearing is not linear and a flat frequency response, at the MLP, will usually sound unnatural and bright.

Triode Pete

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #28 on: 9 Jan 2022, 07:24 pm »
"If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing."

Daniel von Recklinghausen, HH Scott's chief engineer


I couldn't agree more!!!

Onadifferentnote

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #29 on: 9 Jan 2022, 07:25 pm »
Here I am, for months, telling everyone how great my X3s sound (to me).  Finally, I dragged out my UMIK 1 and fired up REW.  Inside I was fearful of the results.  And, of course, the results were horrible.  Now, in my defense, I tried to play REW through my music server to my DAC (DAC is connected via USB).  REW would not work with the DAC's ASIO driver.  So, I switched to JAVA.  Left speaker, right speaker and both L+R.  All traces were almost identical showing a 25 dB peak at 40 Hz.  10 to 15 dB peaks at 60 and 80 Hz.  The speakers combined smoothed out the rest to within 10 dB.  Waterfall was miserable.  25 to 80 Hz was the worst.  But, there were additional frequencies in trouble as well.  I got room treatments.  I'm stuck with seating location.  All I can do is move speakers closer to front wall (which I don't want to do).

I'm going to try again tomorrow but run REW through my preamp so I can use ASIO4ALL and test all my speakers.  If my speakers fail again tomorrow, I'm likely to go the DSP route (Audiolense XO).

Arghhhhh.

Marcus

My two cents.
I am not so sure about measurements in the room.
It's obvious to me when music sounds fantastic and when it doesn't. If you were to take your measurement tool to a concert would it measure spot on perfect?   Did you ever listen to a jazz trio or orchestra live and come away with sonic memories for a life time?  Now if you measured the sound at the venue, my guess is that it wouldn't measure perfect.  If someone told you, yeah,  I was at that concert and I had my measurement tools and there was a huge hump in the mid bass and at around 7K, all those memories would be impacted. 
At this point, you know when something sounds good or not. Nothing is near as close as live music and Live music doesn't measure perfect either.
The challenge with this hobby is to know when to sit back and enjoy the music coming from the fantastic system you built.   I've been caught in that trap and I realized it's never good enough. I learned my lesson.
Seems you deeply love music. Enjoy it.
Cheers.


jtwrace

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #30 on: 9 Jan 2022, 07:33 pm »
My two cents.[/size]I am not so sure about measurements in the room.It's obvious to me when music sounds fantastic and when it doesn't. If you were to take your measurement tool to a concert would it measure spot on perfect?   Did you ever listen to a jazz trio or orchestra live and come away with sonic memories for a life time?  Now if you measured the sound at the venue, my guess is that it wouldn't measure perfect.  If someone told you, yeah,  I was at that concert and I had my measurement tools and there was a huge hump in the mid bass and at around 7K, all those memories would be impacted. At this point, you know when something sounds good or not. Nothing is near as close as live music and Live music doesn't measure perfect either.The challenge with this hobby is to know when to sit back and enjoy the music coming from the fantastic system you built.   I've been caught in that trap and I realized it's never good enough. I learned my lesson.Seems you deeply love music. Enjoy it.Cheers.

Actually, I do have an RTA on my phone which provides a pretty darn good idea of what's going on.  Did you know that nearly every venue you attend actually does measure when they setup?  Even a rock band at your local bar that has any clue will do it.  It's become mainstream in the pro audio world. 

jtwrace

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #31 on: 9 Jan 2022, 07:34 pm »
I respectfully disagree. I’ve been in this hobby for over four decades. I tune my systems by my ear. I’ve heard many audio systems in my day and I certainly am not clueless.

Don P.
Never said you were.  However, just because what was done in the early 90's was good it doesn't mean it can't be better today.  Being open minded and trying doesn't hurt.   ;)

Tangram

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #32 on: 9 Jan 2022, 07:59 pm »
I find that audiophiles are, on the surface, a pretty confident bunch. However, get a couple together to listen to a good system and they will invariably have different opinions on the sound quality, even though they are all listening to the same thing. In my experience this is because they are comparing it to their own systems, systems they have lovingly built and nurtured to a point where they have the sound they are looking for. Comfortable in their sonic success, they become accustomed to this sound and consider it the benchmark by which others are measured.

Of course, the benchmark is live performance. But sonic memories are fickle. There is no way that the concert you attended at Carnegie Hall a decade ago is of any value, regardless of what reviewers would like you to believe. We do, however, listen to our own systems regularly and more frequently than we attend live performances. The “venue” is also consistent. Thus, the sound of our system naturally becomes the benchmark to which others are compared. We develop our own “house curve.”

The problem is that our house curve is flawed. But our brains become conditioned to it, even filling in gaps and smoothing out bumps. We develop our own reality of what constitutes good sound.

So to those of you (many of whom, ahem, have aging ears) who are confident in your aural infallibility, I submit: maybe, just maybe, your sonic nirvana is an illusion. But that’s okay, because it’s your illusion and that’s all that matters. But let’s all remember that projecting one’s personal opinion/illusion of what constitutes good sound is just that - an opinion.

I say measure away, if for no other reason than to have a good starting point for your fine tuning by ear.


dpatters

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #33 on: 9 Jan 2022, 08:07 pm »
Never said you were.  However, just because what was done in the early 90's was good it doesn't mean it can't be better today.  Being open minded and trying doesn't hurt.   ;)
Well, obviously my system is not from the early 90s or 80s for that matter. I believe in cabling, power conditioning, and acoustical treatments, all added with great care over many years of critical listening, live concerts, audio shows, etc.

Over and out on this topic.

Don P.

Tyson

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #34 on: 9 Jan 2022, 08:22 pm »
Here I am, for months, telling everyone how great my X3s sound (to me).  Finally, I dragged out my UMIK 1 and fired up REW.  Inside I was fearful of the results.  And, of course, the results were horrible.  Now, in my defense, I tried to play REW through my music server to my DAC (DAC is connected via USB).  REW would not work with the DAC's ASIO driver.  So, I switched to JAVA.  Left speaker, right speaker and both L+R.  All traces were almost identical showing a 25 dB peak at 40 Hz.  10 to 15 dB peaks at 60 and 80 Hz.  The speakers combined smoothed out the rest to within 10 dB.  Waterfall was miserable.  25 to 80 Hz was the worst.  But, there were additional frequencies in trouble as well.  I got room treatments.  I'm stuck with seating location.  All I can do is move speakers closer to front wall (which I don't want to do).

I'm going to try again tomorrow but run REW through my preamp so I can use ASIO4ALL and test all my speakers.  If my speakers fail again tomorrow, I'm likely to go the DSP route (Audiolense XO).

Arghhhhh.

Marcus

Yes, OB speakers are better than box speakers in most rooms but that does not mean they are perfect.  If you put your old Klipsch back in there, they will measure even worse.  In my own setup with the X3's I still use EQ to knock down 3 bass modes/humps.  -10db at 50hz, -6db at 73hz and -3db at 100hz.  It gets me a reasonably flat response overall, but certainly not 'perfectly flat'.

I used to run fully active speakers for several years using DSP for crossovers and digital EQ to get phase and frequency response dialed in.  I ended up with speakers that measured VERY flat.  I kept telling myself that I loved the sound, after all I'd put in so much time/money/effort to get them to measure perfectly.  I ran my VMPS RM40's like this for a while, then moved to a custom box with scanspeak drivers and then finally to a pair of GR Research V2's.  All of them measured perfectly.  And I'd never listened to less music.  Because at the end of the day, if I was actually honest with myself, they sounded fairly lifeless.  Even though I had 3 dedicated amps and drivers of reasonable sensitivity. 

What I learned (eventually) is that EQ is a GREAT tool for dealing with peaks in the mid/low bass area.  But it's terrible and sucks the life out of the music if you use it for the mids/highs.

The other thing I learned since that time is that even in the bass you should limit the number of places you use EQ.  The fewer, the better.  3 or 4 points of EQ is going to sound a lot better than 10 or 15 points of EQ.  I have no idea why this happens, but it's been pretty consistent in my own experimentation. 

jtwrace

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #35 on: 9 Jan 2022, 08:36 pm »
It's important to not just group all EQ/DSP into one basket.  There are many ways to do it and there are only two SOTA such as Audiolense and Acourate.

Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #36 on: 9 Jan 2022, 08:37 pm »
I absolutely LOVE the enthusiasm here.  Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts.

Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #37 on: 9 Jan 2022, 08:38 pm »
It's important to not just group all EQ/DSP into one basket.  There are many ways to do it and there are only two SOTA such as Audiolense and Acourate.

Jason.  Thank you for jumping in with your comments.

Tyson

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #38 on: 9 Jan 2022, 08:44 pm »
It's important to not just group all EQ/DSP into one basket.  There are many ways to do it and there are only two SOTA such as Audiolense and Acourate.

Cool.  Is there a way to try them out?

abomwell

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #39 on: 9 Jan 2022, 09:03 pm »
Good, bad or indifferent I think it's interesting that this is the first
posting that I've found anywhere that shows measurements of an X series speaker.

My DSPeaker Anti-mode X4 does automatic room correction and it does it pretty much the way Tyson said; correction primarily in the bass by trimming off the 3 or 4 worst offenders. It offers manual EQ as well. And using it I've spent hours getting the FR between 200Hz and 2kHz ruler flat. It looked great but sounded thin and antiseptic. I've kept that EQ as a preset but each time I try it I always want to return to the automatic correction curve.

The DSPeaker manual cautions against overdoing EQ in the upper frequencies because, although it may look good, can negatively affect the phasing.