[Mr. Big]

I owned Luxman and the sonics were superb, neither like solid-state nor tubes, just sublime and the built quality is 2nd to none regardless of price. You like classical, jazz and well-recorded music the Luxman will play it back like only a handful can from top to bottom. I had their separates. The bottom end has grunt, impact, and detail, mid-on-up natural 3D with great imaging, and a non-existent low noise floor.

[DBT AUDIO]

I owned Luxman and the sonics were superb, neither like solid-state nor tubes, just sublime and the built quality is 2nd to none regardless of price. You like classical, jazz and well-recorded music the Luxman will play it back like only a handful can from top to bottom. I had their separates. The bottom end has grunt, impact, and detail, mid-on-up natural 3D with great imaging, and a non-existent low noise floor.

Mr. Big, your Luxman review is very motivating!  What Spatial Audio models do you have and did you use Luxman with them?  My X5s are so open and detailed, I’m concerned any SS gear might cause them to sound bright.  I’m only powering the mid range and tweeter, so I’m not sure if the Luxman would have too much power for the X5s?  What model Luxman did you have?  What gear replaced your Luxman and why did you replace it if you really liked the sonics as you described?

Thanks!

[Tyson]

Luxman gear is very very nice.

[DBT AUDIO]

Luxman gear is very very nice.

I haven’t read any bad comments about Luxman.  One AudiogoN forum I read yesterday seemed to be a battle of views between Accuphase and Luxman.  Some felt Accuphase was better than Luxman and others did not.  Plus, they mentioned Accuphase was double the cost of a comparable Luxman piece and the sound was not double the quality over Luxman.  I’m thinking about auditioning a Luxman L-509X or L-509AXII?  The L-509AXII might be a better fit for the X5s because it’s only 30 watts class A.  The L-509X may have too much horsepower, but they allow me flexibility with future speaker choices.  Decisions…. Decisions…

[Mr. Big]

I haven’t read any bad comments about Luxman.  One AudiogoN forum I read yesterday seemed to be a battle of views between Accuphase and Luxman.  Some felt Accuphase was better than Luxman and others did not.  Plus, they mentioned Accuphase was double the cost of a comparable Luxman piece and the sound was not double the quality over Luxman.  I’m thinking about auditioning for a Luxman L-509X or L-509AXII?  The L-509AXII might be a better fit for the X5s because it’s only 30 watts class A.  The L-509X may have too much horsepower, but they allow me flexibility with future speaker choices.  Decisions…. Decisions…

Having more power is always good even if your speakers are efficient. I still like separates over integrated amps. A pre-owned Luxman 600A-800A would be a great addition. If they can make Quad ESL sound over the top, with a huge sound stage and a bottom end where you would think you had a small sub-woofer somewhere. I owned Accuphase and I liked Luxman much, much, much more. I felt Accuphase was way overpriced and returned my loaners. They sound good, but at their asking prices I felt it did not warrant the cost. I grew up on tube gear and in many ways those years formed my ear of natural sound in sound systems. Listen to a human voice when you are speaking to someone, is it sharp, hyper-detailed, no just the opposite. I use the human voice, piano, and nonelectric standup bass, and brass instruments when I listen to a system at an audio store. I don't waste my time, a B3 Hammond Organ has a distinct sound. I also look for the size of the Instruments and tone and color and body. Hate to say many systems that look fancy, overbuilt speakers and such, and they fail big time.

Listening to Cantate Domino with the Oscar's Motet Choir and from the other room it sounds like you are in a church, the organ is so real, vocals have reverb from singing in a church. The Saphhire M3's nailed it in spades and I've heard this recording and every type of gear you could name, and tonight it sounds almost perfect and I have never said that I hear it sound dark, rich, too bright, and even please turn the volume down bad and distorted from all the upper midrange and highs being overpowering, the sales guy said can you hear that detail I said yes, that not normal sounding at all. I was not impressed with his ear, because he did not have one, he was selling gear and not a systemwith good sound, huge difference.  Go with the power it does wonders from top to bottom. On Quad speakers I read where people say 20 watts is all you need, well I saw my meters peg at 40 watts and higher, sure 20 watts could play them but to really hear them and what they were capable of,  I never would have had less than 100 watts.

[DBT AUDIO]

Having more power is always good even if your speakers are efficient. I still like separates over integrated amps. A pre-owned Luxman 600A-800A would be a great addition. If they can make Quad ESL sound over the top, with a huge sound stage and a bottom end where you would think you had a small sub-woofer somewhere. I owned Accuphase and I liked Luxman much, much, much more. I felt Accuphase was way overpriced and returned my loaners. They sound good, but at their asking prices I felt it did not warrant the cost.

Go with the power it does wonders from top to bottom. On Quad speakers I read where people say 20 watts is all you need, well I saw my meters peg at 40 watts and higher, sure 20 watts could play them but to really hear them and what they were capable of,  I never would have had less than 100 watts.

I’m only concerned about too much power because the X5 is not a fully passive speaker.  My PrimaLuna EVO 400 amp is only 70 watts and I can’t turn the volume passed 11 o’clock in a 17’x18’ 2-story room.  If I get anymore horsepower than what I have, I’m not sure how that might sound?  I’ll figure it out and make a decision.  Thanks for your insight!

[TomS]

I’m only concerned about too much power because the X5 is not a fully passive speaker.  My PrimaLuna EVO 400 amp is only 70 watts and I can’t turn the volume passed 11 o’clock in a 17’x18’ 2-story room.  If I get anymore horsepower than what I have, I’m not sure how that might sound?  I’ll figure it out and make a decision.  Thanks for your insight!

I have a Modwright KWH225i hybrid integrated, 225wpc with X5's no problem at all. It runs up to 25w class A so spends most if not all of its time there.
'

[Tyson]

I’m only concerned about too much power because the X5 is not a fully passive speaker.  My PrimaLuna EVO 400 amp is only 70 watts and I can’t turn the volume passed 11 o’clock in a 17’x18’ 2-story room.  If I get anymore horsepower than what I have, I’m not sure how that might sound?  I’ll figure it out and make a decision.  Thanks for your insight!

How much you can turn up the volume has more to do with gain than with power.

[DBT AUDIO]

I have a Modwright KWH225i hybrid integrated, 225wpc with X5's no problem at all. It runs up to 25w class A so spends most if not all of its time there.
'

Wow, that’s good to know!  Do you prefer tubes over SS and hybrids with your X3s?

How much you can turn up the volume has more to do with gain than with power.

That’s interesting and I am still trying to learn how these electronics work. 

Thanks

[TomS]

Wow, that’s good to know!  Do you prefer tubes over SS and hybrids with your X3s?That’s interesting and I am still trying to learn how these electronics work. 

Thanks

Not sure I understand your question. I am not a tube guy, per se, but the Modwright is just right with a tube 6922/6DJ8 preamp stage, and solid state mostly class A amplifier. It is a phenomenal match with the X5's and I tried many other combos, documented elsewhere here.

[DBT AUDIO]

Not sure I understand your question. I am not a tube guy, per se, but the Modwright is just right with a tube 6922/6DJ8 preamp stage, and solid state mostly class A amplifier. It is a phenomenal match with the X5's and I tried many other combos, documented elsewhere here.

After reading your review of the X3s, I noticed you used mostly tube amps and only one SS amp which was the First Watt BA3.  I didn’t see your hybrid Modwritght in the mix of your list of amps used unless I overlooked it.  I figured you prefered tube amps over SS amps based on your review.  Basically, most Spatial Audio owners on Audio Circle seem to favor tubes with their Spatials.  That’s why I’m looking for feedback on SS gear.  I have to buy the Luxman piece if I want to audition it as I don’t have a local Luxman dealer near me.  It’s an expensive undertaking that I may avoid if I get enough negative feedback on SS with Spatials.  I’ve enjoyed my PrimaLuna, but I don’t care for the maintenance of tubes.  If tubes sound the best, I’ll stick with tubes at the end of the day.

[Mr. Big]

I’m only concerned about too much power because the X5 is not a fully passive speaker.  My PrimaLuna EVO 400 amp is only 70 watts and I can’t turn the volume past 11 o’clock in a 17’x18’ 2-story room.  If I get any more horsepower than what I have, I’m not sure how that might sound?  I’ll figure it out and make a decision.  Thanks for your insight!

Having more power is not about how loud you play the music. it is about how the music and all its complexities are easily reproduced while keeping imaging, body, and tone correct.  Not saying you need 400 watts, just saying if one amp you are looking at say is 30 watts class A, the other 100 watts class A, I choose the 100 watts. Plus if you ever decided to change speakers that are less efficient then you have an amp to drive them also.

[hilde45]

Having more power is not about how loud you play the music. it is about how the music and all its complexities are easily reproduced while keeping imaging, body, and tone correct.

Thank you for articulating this so perfectly. I have been having a lot of trouble explaining to folks over at A'gon about this, and there seems to be a very one-dimensional mindset with many which comes back to absolute power amounts. Thank you for giving me a way to understand (and maybe explain) this.

[Tyson]

After reading your review of the X3s, I noticed you used mostly tube amps and only one SS amp which was the First Watt BA3.  I didn’t see your hybrid Modwritght in the mix of your list of amps used unless I overlooked it.  I figured you prefered tube amps over SS amps based on your review.  Basically, most Spatial Audio owners on Audio Circle seem to favor tubes with their Spatials.  That’s why I’m looking for feedback on SS gear.  I have to buy the Luxman piece if I want to audition it as I don’t have a local Luxman dealer near me.  It’s an expensive undertaking that I may avoid if I get enough negative feedback on SS with Spatials.  I’ve enjoyed my PrimaLuna, but I don’t care for the maintenance of tubes.  If tubes sound the best, I’ll stick with tubes at the end of the day.

I think you are confusing me and TomS.  I wrote this X3 review and I don't have any Modwright gear.

[Early B.]

Thank you for articulating this so perfectly. I have been having a lot of trouble explaining to folks over at A'gon about this, and there seems to be a very one-dimensional mindset with many which comes back to absolute power amounts. Thank you for giving me a way to understand (and maybe explain) this.

Here's a practical approach to the "more watts" issue -- most amp designers' statement amps are better built, sound better, and are usually their highest power offering. That's not coincidental.     

[abomwell]

Roger Sanders, designer of the Magtech amp, has a fascinating (to me) white paper on amplifiers, tube vs SS and power here: http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors

[DBT AUDIO]

I think you are confusing me and TomS.  I wrote this X3 review and I don't have any Modwright gear.

Tyson, you are correct.  My mistake…. Lol.

[DBT AUDIO]

Not sure I understand your question. I am not a tube guy, per se, but the Modwright is just right with a tube 6922/6DJ8 preamp stage, and solid state mostly class A amplifier. It is a phenomenal match with the X5's and I tried many other combos, documented elsewhere here.

TomS, when I relied to your post above, I thought I was responding to Tyson concerning his statement about wattage and I mixed him up with you, in reference to your Modwright.  All responses have been good information for me either way.  I just wanted to get back on track with who I’m replying to.

Having more power is not about how loud you play the music. it is about how the music and all its complexities are easily reproduced while keeping imaging, body, and tone correct.  Not saying you need 400 watts, just saying if one amp you are looking at say is 30 watts class A, the other 100 watts class A, I choose the 100 watts. Plus if you ever decided to change speakers that are less efficient then you have an amp to drive them also.

Now we are talking…. I want the flexibility with the higher wattage amp for future speaker options.

[geerock]

#DBTAUDIO
I'm just gonna throw this out there for everyone that has watts on their mind.  Watts dont mean much at all, especially if you never use them.  It's current.  As is fast, linear, available current.  The Luxman has a BJT based 3 stage push pull circuit in class A and it will outperform a MOSFET based amp with over 3 times its wattage.  Theres so much more to amp design circuitry than watts.  It will also tame just about any speaker you hook it up with.  The 590ax2 is a first class integrated that will stand up to just about anything.  And you're hearing this from a tube guy.
Just FYI.

[genjamon]

There are always tradeoffs in this hobby.  In amplification, there are some things tube amps do that SS amps just can't do.  If you want large wattage for speaker flexibility down the line, you're pretty much shackled to SS amplification unless you have massive budget for some uber tube amps.  And even then, you're not going to be able to play with that magic of smaller wattage SET tube designs.  So, unfortunately you have to make some choices and can't have it all.

Here are some very rough thoughts on these tradeoffs:

Wattage for speaker flexibility - quality Class A/B SS is your friend, but you won't achieve the instrumental tone of a good tube amp, and unless it's a very good SS amp, you might have a more 2-dimensional presentation and less of a completely holographic soundstage than some SET tube designs

Full and proper tone on acoustic instruments, vocals, etc (hearing the real body of an acoustic guitar, for example) - tubes are your friend, but you might trade off some control and some ultimate resolution, and possibly soundstage, if a push-pull design that emphasizes tone over neutrality. 

The above tube tone along with holographic and ethereal sense of space of the room - small watts SET is your friend, but you trade off less wattage and less control in the bass usually.

Of course, the above are only very rough and crude characterizations, and there are always exceptions to the rule within each class.  But at a certain point with each type of amp, you just can't escape the raw physics of the situation. 

So, the most important question is really for you to know and be able to articulate your priorities for the kind of sound you seek.  Then you can know which pond to wade around in looking for the right fit.  Because audio is like the land of 10,000 lakes here - too many choices without first knowing what sound you prioritize to narrow the field a bit.

Finally, many audiophiles find that a tube preamp in front of a SS amp marries most of the best characteristics among the above with the least compromises.  You get a good dose of tube tone and soundstage characteristics, but also the control and wattage and flexibility of a good SS amp.  There are still tradeoffs with this approach, and finding the right pairing of quality tube preamp and quality SS amp can be a little tricky if not from the same brand and designed to play together, but they are not as stark as with a full tube or full SS setup.